3336 replies to this topic

[ThroughWithLove]

But it does. I'm addressing -why- you are making your statement, which basically comes from I don't like it. That's the gist I'm getting from you, and thus my argument in return. Free Market and Capitalism are just words on the Surface covering that. No Strawman here. And even if I'm addressing just Free Market and Capitalism, as long as people love the product, it is going to sell. And since we disagree about the quality, and those people who love it too, having it die is not necessarily a boon at all. A Creative Artist does not say these sort of things, and we should be more respectful of works then that. That is the gist of my point.

 

You ask where do you draw the line? You draw the line at context. Retcons are not necessarily bad, context determines that. Whether or not SP Promoted Hinata for Montery gain requires a valid example to stand on, else it is just assumption and postulation; blank statements.  No foundation. no evidence. Thus my counter position is objective, because you have yet to say what it stands on, what evidence shows that they are doing this.

 

I never said by the way, that Naruto's clones doing his paper work is a retcon. I said if it -was- a retcon, it would be better then what you were seeing it as, which was that it shouldn't happen and he should be able to balance things. The thing is, perfect Naruto is -boring-. And there's no evidence that its a retcon. So no, it's not a retcon. The problem surfaces in any case, from Naruto being Hokage and not being able to spend more time at work. If you watch the Anime, you'll see this validated, even with his use of shadow clones.

 

The why is something you've concocted and something you appear unable to produce a quote for. Again, meet my challenge: Quote precisely where I said anything to the effect that "This series should die because I alone don't like it" and "The writer shouldn't even be able to upload his thoughts to the Internet." You can't do it. And the reason you can't do it is because there isn't a single statement I've made that remotely suggest what you're trying to attribute to me. It's that simple. 

 

As to the Subjective vs Objective conversation, (1) Saying something is only bad depending on the context is also a subjective standard is no means a line to be drawn if we are to follow your reasoning to its logical conclusion. There are some contexts you like that other people will not like.  (2) Saying X requires a valid example to stand on is also subjective since who is to say what is and what is not a valid example? Clearly, some people here believe circumstantial evidence such as the release of an entire shounen film revolving around Hinata is a sufficiently valid example to stand upon. Other people (i.e. you) would disagree. It's all subjective, right?    

 

As to the retcon business, perhaps you can help me out here, but it sounds like you're basically telling us that: " Naruto being unable to maintain two shadowclones throughout the day despite being able to maintain 1000 for a solid month with far less chakra/skill/ability/experience is not a retcon because Perfect Naruto is boring and because there's no evidence that it is a retcon." If that's the case, I think we can call it a night on this discussion.  

[Honestly]

Hi I'm new but I do agree I have loved Naruto right from the start up till it started to get all kittened up with Kishi showing his love for the Uchiha something that I hated a lot, I mean I feel like Kishi did all this to make us feel sorry for them by changing it all up on why they all so kittened up in the head. Now while some may say that the ending to Naruto is good, I know it is not a good ending I say this because I do study writing class at Collage and its a very high learning course I am doing right now, anyway I took all the information to my teacher and I was on the fence on the ending at first till I took it to my teacher and he said with all he looked up twice that this was a bad ending to the manga.
 
This is for many, many reason really one of the reason my teacher pointed out very well, he said this. "If this story was about Naruto how come we never saw he become Hokage and just see him as one, a writer must show the hero's dream come true, which for Naruto was being Hokage, however from what I see we just see a skip. To me this was not really Naruto's story but Sasuke's hence why we didn't get to see him become Hokage."
 
He then went on to talk about Sasuke, and how its seems that the writer Kishi played favourites with Sasuke, this is shown in the fight he has with Deidara at the end with Sasuke somehow getting away from death, and he looked over that fight saying Sasuke with so little power and time should not have been able to do that, "That is the writer throwing logic away as he didn't what someone he likes to do, and had very little thought on the ending to the fight that the writer didn't really think it out."
 
He looked at the ending as well and all the bad that Sasuke did and how he was let off as well, now this was something that he didn't like at all being he is a teacher of a class that teachers us how to make a good story, now in his own words he said this. "Letting Sasuke free and live after all he did would be like letting Darth Vader free after Return on the Jedi or after heroes turned villains as well." he went on to say that is all stories that when a former hero has gone bad they end up dying. He did say this was depending on the evil that they have done and he looked at what Sasuke has done and said one of three things should have happened.
 
1 he dies saving his former friends and earning him redemption
 
2 he spends the rest of his life in jail.
 
3 he is killed by Naruto
 
And it not just Sasuke that is bad but Naruto as well my teacher said that Naruto never grew up he stayed in my teachers words an ignorant child who couldn't and would never be able to handle who the real world works. which is bad Naruto never grew and just stayed grew, he said in stories a character has to grow and change to know that you don't always win and that lose that lose is a big part of life that you can't really save everyone.
 
He says this that Buffy was better, as he looked back on season 2 when Angel became Angelus, he said that after Jenney death it was at that moment that Buffy knew she had to kill Angel as he was gone and he was not coming back this shows that even thou Buffy deeply loved Angle she knew what was the right thing to do. "Now Naruto if he was in the same spot looking at him, I feel he would let the whole planet get dragged into hell." that is what my teacher said if Naruto was faced with the same point as had to face as Naruto couldn't let Sasuke go.
 
Now I ask my teacher on how and what makes a good ending my teacher said that a good ending to a story is one like Star Wars Return of the Jedi, Buffy season 7 The Lord of the Rings Harry Potter and so on I did ask him why and he said what makes the great is because the heroes grew in the stories they knew that sometimes you don't always win and traitors get what was coming to them as well.
 
Sadly Naruto is by no means a good Manga od a story not like the others I have seen or read, I mean Sasuke was just a kitten, when I look at him. But when I look at say someone like Spike from Buffy he was liked and kept alive for a reason because the fans liked it and he was a good bad guy and later hero as well, and this was before he got a soul, which I might add he fought for on his own as he was horrified that he tried to rape Buffy.
 
this I might add what makes Spike better than Sasuke as even without the soul Spike knew what he did was wrong, and I hate to bring this up but if Sasuke did that to Sakura I just have this bad feeling that Naruto would let it slide as Naruto would say that Sasuke was not in his right mind when he did it, which is another point on why Naruto is bad as Naruto kept trying to come up with something for Sasuke and why he was a victim and has done nothing wrong.
 
Sadly as someone who wants to be a writer one day I feel that is wrong and that Naruto is a bad leader I mean he lets someone like Orochimaru free and after what Naruto knows that he did as well, this would be like if Luke let the Emperor live after all the lives that have been lost.

I would like to know what sasuke did so wrong other than being Kishi fav because him want power for is revenge is not bad writing.and you are right about naruto not growing up

[Honestly]

Watchable? What does watchable mean? Yes, I know what the definition is: enjoyable to watch. But what does that mean about an anime? By saying a show is watchable is a personal opinion you could say that Dragonball is either watchable or un-watchable for example. OK, but how is it either? If the person meant Boruto the best anime quality-wise out-there; it's not. If they mean Boruto is the most watched anime in Japan; again it is not.

yes that what I meant they say it's the most watched In Japan.I just really want to know what the Japanese fan feel about Boruto cause I thought sales drop

[Bail o' Lies]

yes that what I meant they say it's the most watched In Japan.I just really want to know what the Japanese fan feel about Boruto cause I thought sales drop

One Piece is the most watched anime in Japan by far. As for the best anime quality wise. Not sure but a large number of anime have better quality then Boruto; I can assure you of that.

[Kagomaru]

I would like to know what sasuke did so wrong other than being Kishi fav because him want power for is revenge is not bad writing.and you are right about naruto not growing up

You mean aside from betraying his village by working under a missing nin that killed his village's leader and expressed an open willingness and intent to kill his proclaimed best friend to acquire more power (as shown when he impaled Naruto's lungs and broke his neck, both acts of which he had no idea he could heal from at the time)? Or how after he acquired his vengeance, turned his hatred over to his own village with designs to annihilate it, with no thought given on the innocent lives he would destroy? Or how he later had the idea of becoming Hokage, though his vision of Hokage would be based upon forceful subjugation and totalitarianism?

Edited by Kagomaru, 23 July 2017 - 06:21 PM.

[ThroughWithLove]

 

The original user of the quote, to which all of my statements ultimately circle back to, though others jumped onto it, was that the "Franchise should die", which was said by another yet as far as I am aware, they didn't even watch the Franchise. In other words, their loath seemed a personal grudge. I had to go back a few pages to see that. You jumped on, saying it was good for a bad Franchise to die. I am disagreeing with the same merit, as (Tell me if I am wrong), it doesn't sound like you're indulging in the product. How can you judge it bad without giving it your time? And if you aren't giving it your attention, it doesn't hurt you. Ultimately, you are bashing/spewing hate on something that you aren't reading or viewing first. If that's not true, and you've watched the Boruto anime and read the Manga, let me know, and I'll rescind this point of view. And if you aren't indulging, but saying these things, is my reasoning not correct on why you are making the statement? Even if I'm wrong here, ultimately my statements were directed at the original, though at some point I do believe I mixed the two of you up. All the same, I think the heart of my point stays the same. You shouldn't wish for a product to die out of personal hate, and I fear that is what is going on here.

 

 

-Strawman Fallacy: At the end of the day, the bottom line here is (1) "That this series should die because I alone don't like it" and "This series shouldn't even exist in unofficial form" are not positions I've embraced and that (2) there are no statements throughout this entire thread that indicate that this is my position. And so in light of that, the prudent and expedient thing to do is to chalk your beliefs otherwise up as a simple misunderstandings and move on.

 

-Judging Boruto without indulging in it: I faithfully indulged in all 700 chapters of the original series, despite absolutely hating the last 250 chapters. I've read the entirety of gaiden and have seen Boruto movie. I've seen enough to know that it's a mediocre adaptation to its predecessor which had to limp across the finish line while begging people to put it out of its misery. I'm more than qualified to pass judgment on this series and have given it more chances that it deserves.

 

-If you aren't giving it attention, it's not hurting you: This one has already been beaten to death. I'd like for Boruto to expeditiously get kicked to the curb in order to make room for newer and better series. I'd also like for its death to signify that people in manga/anime community are no longer going to tolerate shameless cash grabs, thus marking the end of them. The death of Boruto is a chance for these magazines and studios to stop taking their audience for granted. What you fail to realize is that this is a problem much bigger than Boruto or the Naruto franchise alone and is something that has been needing to get addressed for a long time now. Now if the writer of Boruto wishes to continue publishing his material though unofficial mediums, I have no problem with this whatsoever.

 

 

 

Anyway, at the end of a day, if a character is so well loved and liked that they make you money...why exactly are we complaining if they are in it? The Cash Grab argument suggests in its disdain that it is the lesser quality choice. So it's an insult at them, weaved out of very stretched circumstantial evidence, because in SP's later Shippuden arcs, they don't choose to focus on Hinata, yet they do in this one movie, where they didn't in the other 9, and it's now a budget grab. Oh, and the following movie, they don't use Hinata as a main character again, despite the Last being the most profitable movie at the time compared to all the others.

 

We're not complaining. As I've repeatedly said, power to Jump and Studio Pierott for making good business decisions. The crux of the matter, however, is that you've repeatedly tried to suggest that it's ridiculous to think that SP's was promoting NaruHina for monetary gain despite the existence of a film revolving around NaruHIna. A film you've cited as being the most profitable movie at the time compared to all the others (mission accomplished). Which you've just made clear is not something to be complained about. I agree, so what are we complaining about when you want to accuse people of crafting conspiracy theories on this very topic? 

 

I don't think them using Hinata in one instance and not using her in another is much of an issue here. Boruto being the product of Naruto and Hinata is enough to get the pairing fans on board and making a movie about Boruto's journey is more along the lines a long term strategy to promoting the planned followup Naruto adaptation.

 

 

 

Naruto clearly has a lot more shadow clones out when he's working as Hokage. But he's doing this for days and weeks and months on end, and he's not getting much sleep. He's exhausted and not rejuvenated. Him struggling with what he could normally do fully awaken and with full rest, makes sense. Again, there's no retocn. Perhaps you are missing the context here.

 

If you can find me a statement or scene in Boruto demonstrating that Naruto is actively using 1000+ shadowclones every day and that this is the reason he can't spend time with his son, I'll gladly concede the point. Which is awfully generous of me considering that that still wouldn't explain why the real Naruto can't have a shadowclone handle all the desk work while he spends time with his family. It also wouldn't explain how the kyuubi can't simply supplement the amount of chakra needed for the task, when Boruto canon establishes that Kurama is doing nothing but sleeping all the time. And considering how the jutsu works, the shadowclone at work could constantly create and destroy new clones, thereby constantly sending all of its memories back to the real Naruto. Terrible terrible terrible writing.

 

This is why you should never try to insert yourself into the main character you're writing. Kishi wanted Naruto to have the hard time he's having with his family and work life, but it just doesn't fit when you think about this character's abilities. It's the equivalent to writing a story about Superman having back problems, Batman being upset about Wayne Enterprises not giving him a raise or being The Flash fretting about the possibility of being late for work. The intent being to make these characters more relatable to the reader notwithstanding how asinine both ideas truly are.

Edited by ThroughWithLove, 24 July 2017 - 12:13 AM.

[ThroughWithLove]

 

1: If that's the root of your opinion, it's still not a strawman. Show vs. Tel here.

2: You still need to watch the actual anime and read the manga to judge this material well. It's okay to say you don't like it to continue, but it's bad to judge the anime/manga without even seeing it.

3: Subjective, ultimately. And factually, new mediums and material can and will arise even with Boruto's continuation. Boruto does not hinder that. It's the choice of writers and those who employ them ultimately what they do. The only way to really change this, is to become a writer, have enough of a general population do this, or become a publisher. The thing is, this relates to 1, which connects to personal distaste, so I'll leave it at that.

 

4: The very, very weak point of pairing fans, is they in general aren't a large magin of the fan. This is why I raise eyebrows at any: Oh, they pushed this character forward, they're doing a cash grab, as relatively laughable, when if they really wanted to do that, they'd push every character forward that had a large following, which they don't in the Last (Sasuke noticeably not having much screentime).

 

5: Actually, there's nothing wrong with giving a character a similarity of yourself. You say never, but that's actually false. Heck, some people write about their own real life experiences, except put it from another character's P.O.V. So no, I disagree with that writing advise entirely.

 

1. Dead horse. You misunderstood my position and attributed someone else's thoughts to mine, as shown by your own words in your last post. This is why you could not produce the quotes I requested. Moving on.

2. I've seen enough to make an informed opinion. If I'm missing anything in my overall assessment of the series, you're welcome to explain it to me here. Far more productive than the platitudinous 'you can't judge it without watching  every second of it' retort.

3. You overuse the term subjective. We don't need to keep going down that road. And kicking Boruto to the curb allows the studios/publishers producing it to focus their resources on something else (and likely better). It also sends a message to the rest of the market that "This business practice is to be avoided", all in all decreasing the likelihood of us getting shameless cash grabs in the future.

4. If a movie catered to pairing fans is the most successful movie in an series of movies, then your points regarding pairing fans do not hold. The fact of the matter is that they are indeed a large part of the community which is why they get fanservice in the form of an entire feature film despite the genre. They aren't catered to more than that because it deviates outside of the series' actual genre. As for Sasuke, the guy has gotten multiple story arcs revolving around his character and is currently the mentor of the adaptation's title character. Sasuke has gotten pushed a'plenty, so you have all the more proven my point.

5. There's a wide difference between giving a character similarities to yourself and actively trying to insert yourself into the character. When you do the latter, you lose your sense of objectivity and can end up making story decisions that are OOC for your character to engage in. Hence the whole shadowclone issue here.

 

 

As for the shadow clone evidence, it's shown that Naruto is using them everyday (Not how many), it's shown that he has a hard time keepimg them up, and that he's exhausted a lot. So having a hard time make sense. No, nothing explicitly tells the number, you can infer how many it really is here. But that this is happening for likely a long period of time doesn't retcon or undo anything, which is what you are insisting.

 

Basically you are wanting very clear, logically presented Shadow Clone Rules, but Naruto's limits are never very precisely stated on that as they get pushed on, though they are on other jutsu.

 

 

What we're shown is Naruto using his real body to do mindless paper work and no legitimate reason why shadowclones cannot do said paper work while the real Naruto is off spending time with his family (or doing whatever off screen unknown uber-important task you're attempting to allude to). 

 

No, I am not wanting very clear, logically presented Shadow Clones Rules. I already got those when Naruto was training with Kakashi in the Hidan/Kakuzu arc. It's in light of those clearly explained rules that I am flabbergasted that Boruto is premised on tension that can easily be resolved with proper application of the rules already given us. 

[The Doctor forever]

@ ThroughWithLove

 

I do agree with you man I have been looking at other Manga ending and so far none have not a film that comes out after its ending other than Naruto, I mean Fairy tail has just ended I mean its like if the writer and studio says after an ending there is a film coming that is the true ending, Dragonball Z didn't do, we just got GT which we all know how that went it got canceled because it was so bad, we got no film after the Manga ended.

 

The reason the last fails is cause it changes things from Naruto knowing how to use Shadow clones before he knew it to Hinata being builed for her eyes, to me this one makes the least sense and this is just the start of the film as well, I mean I asked myself when I watched it why is Hinata getting bullied for her eyes when everyone on her clan has them as well, then I ask why is no one watching over Hinata, I mean she was meant to be the next in line to lead her Clan after all so she should have a body guard watching over her.

 

So this is a point her being bullied cause of her eyes makes no sense at all and and her being bullied is taken from Sakura from when she was picked on for her large forehead that she hated.

 

with number 3 yeah I hate Boruto as well man he reminds me too much of Sasuke thinking that he is the best and cool while kittening he has daddy issues I mean I ask a friend last week what he would like to see a sequel of Boruto or one that involves Pan and her family.

 

He said Pan, because she is not full of herself like Boruto she is fun look at her in the end of Z, add onto the power she has shown us in Super, he said she sees everything as fun like Goku but with Gohan's power and smarts as well, plus she has a good relationship with her parents, and they love her, hell its shown what a good father Gohan is in super when he turned down a good job so he can stay closer to Videl and Pan.

 

funny thing is he said Pan at only 4 would beat Boruto so badly that she does not even need Super Saiyan to beat him, hell I know Boruto  would think that he could take Pan on, what more funny is my friend said that Pan would Punch him in the kitten so hard the same thing would happen as it did in Teamfourstar films when this happened to Goku and Vegeta with Boruto saying this. "She punched me in the kitten why, why did she punch me in the kitten."

 

Another line he gave me would be this from Boruto since Pan would ask does he believe in his own Hype that much. "I am the hype." And Vegeta wanting Pan to kill him.

[ThroughWithLove]

 

But you haven't read any of the Boruto manga, -any- of the Anime, which is what is still continuing, and that is what is the current life/ongoing force of the Franchise, and you're saying that should die. That is the problem with your statement, which connects to 1.

 

My friend, it's very simple. I've told you exactly why this series fails as well as how I would have done things differently had I been the one writing it. Tell us exactly what is wrong with my assessment using any material that I have not bothered to watch/read and I'll gladly take into consideration. Believe me, if this series corrects every issue I have with it, I'd love to watch it.

 

And I'm sorry, but I don't really subscribe to the notion that I have to watch every second/minute of a material to judge it. That's flawed logic to the extreme and we could walk through example after example of why this is false. We can go down that road if you want, but I don't think it's necessary.

 

 

3: Is dangerous, as you are assuming whatever next is better. The Studios can choose to drop Boruto if they want to. That's their business decision. They are choosing to continue for a reason. Perhaps Boruto is not so bad as you are projecting it out to be.

 

You're right. I shouldn't make the assumption that whatever next will be better. However, I can say if Boruto is used as a learning point by this industry, whatever comes next will likely be better. And given what I'm saying from shows like Boku no Hero Academia, a show which basically took every issue with Naruto and corrected it, I'm pretty optimistic about the potential of this industry.

 

As to Boruto, it's in decline and is performing nowhere near as well as its predecessor. Of course, even its predecessor had been in decline for sometime, so I don't see it avoiding the fates of series like Bleach or Toriko. So it's not so much a matter of if but a matter of when. I say they should just go ahead and put the series out of its misery and send a message to any other studio intent upon engaging in these cashgrabbing practices.

 

 

 

4: Sure, the movie is something NH fans would see, but really, its a film any Naruto fan would see, because you get to see Naruto in action two years later. Saying it appeals to pairing fans is accurate, but saying it appears and is for them alone is not.

 

 

I didn't say it appeals to the NH fans alone however. There are a lot of fans who will see anything with the Naruto label slapped on it. And power to them. However, we can agree that the film is primarily catered to NH fans, no? I mean surely a movie that is about Naruto and Hinata getting together is accomplishing just that.

 

 

 

Finally, I don't see how Boruto breaks any of those rules. If you can outline the rules for me, as you understand them, maybe we can come to a consensus here., else I am not going to see where you are coming from.

 

I think the relevant rules are explained on this page pretty well, so I'll link you to it: http://naruto.wikia....Clone_Technique

 

We'll also add the following excerpts for good measure:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

That shall be our consensus. Now that you know where I'm coming from, why can't a exponentially stronger version of Naruto do this on a daily basis? Why can't Naruto have multiple shadow clones tend to mindless paper work while the real Naruto spends time with his family?

[ThroughWithLove]

 

Actually, your inverse logic is flawed here.

 

We're commenting on the Boruto Manga/Anime that you want cancelled. You have not watched the Boruto/Manga Anime. You are saying it should die, because it's not a good series based on the preceding Movie, but you haven't even watched an episode of the Anime, which isn't the same story. The argument isn't for you to watch every minute/second, the argument is that you cannot properly assess material without looking at it. You can say: It will probably be bad. You -cannot- say it will be bad. If you do, you are -not- a reliable source, as you have no primary foundation to report from. 

 

 

 

 

Okay, well if you insist, lets explore that logic. You'll forgive me for using a crude example, but I feel it better illustrates the point: What do you think of pornography of the scat and bestiality genre? And before you say anything, how can you properly assess such material without first looking at it?

 

 

 

A solid example actually, which sort of follows the original theme of Acknowledgement is an episode where Boruto truly believed he had the Byakyugan. He even thought he was awesome and cool, in his own "destiny" sort of revelation, (A Tier better than the one in Naruto with the Sage of Six Paths). The revelation makes him almost cocky, arrogant, so when he's set up to not show it at all, it creates this feel able disappointment when the hammer falls. Yes, I think you should watch it, there are going to be a couple of *This feels like it's not for my age group episodes" mind, because Boruto caters primarily to a younger generation, which is important for its success, IMO. 

 

 

The original theme of acknowledgment has already been done in the original in a more relatable fashion (Naruto being a complete loser) and under more compelling circumstances (been hated his entire life). From what I gathered the movie, you get a 'been there done that' reaction and Boruto himself is an unlikeable punk and simultaneously a closeted and borderline gary-stu. I never find myself wanting to root for him as I did his father and never get a big smile on my face when he manages to overcome a seemingly hopeless situation (pre-war arc anyway).  The only chance this sequel would have had was graduating to Seinen and telling a story from a very different vantage point than the one its predecessor did (i.e. Boruto's role is like Kakashi's and he's in charge of three genin). Also try some adult themes. For example, maybe the reason Naruto's always working has nothing to do with being "too busy." Instead, he's simply doesn't know how to be a father (on account of never having had one himself) and just doesn't get his kids (something I don't like at first glance, but if its canon that Naruto simply didn't understand love, I don't see why not). Boruto, though an excelling shinobi, royally sucks at being a squad leader and doesn't have a clue about responsibility. Sakura is an alcoholic, no doubt the result of her husband been out all the time. The Seinen manga could be a complete and total deconstruction of its Shounen predecessor and would definitely be a good way to wash away the foul taste a lot of the manga ended up leaving.

 

 

 

On the Manga, I've read the Manga. I -don't- like it that much. But at least I've read some material to make an argument of why I don't like it, rather that I've not given it a chance. This is a seperate story, as the Anime is a separate show, with someone new in the seat. 

 

 

I've skimmed through bits and parts of the manga (every time it gets uploaded to mangastream, I figure why not). Don't really care for it either.

 

 

 

3: The response to number three is presumptive, as first: Attack on Titans is a matter of opinion. I can't comment on that, I haven't watched Attack on Titans. The second, that it is declining, is opinion, and you haven't offered a measuring of declining to give it any foundation. 

 

 

1 - Who said anything about Attack on Titan? I referred to My Hero Academia. Go watch it first. Then we discuss what constitutes opinion and what does not.

 

2 - You've been presented evidence multiple times now that this series' ratings are inferior to its predecessors. Most notably here.

 

 

 

4: The film certainly appeals to these fans, but its purpose is still to primarily appeal to the same audience in general. Would NH fans be the most likely to like it? That is an argument that can be put forward with substance, yes. 

 

Am I to conclude that you're denying that the producers were aware that NH fans would be the most likely to like the film?

 

 

 

On the last, now that I see it, let's establish what it states in rule:

1: Naruto can learn faster when using clones, as he retains the experience they get. 

 

It does not:

Establish Naruto's maximum Shadow clone count.

How Long the Shadow Clones Last.

How much the Chakra drain is.

Effects of Fatigue in Shadow Clone Efficiency.

Long Term Effect of constant, daily, Shadow Clone Use.

Effectiveness with Advanced/Non-Combat efforts in an office setting. 

 

All of the above is why Boruto can work. 

 

Nah. First off, it's not the reader's job to come up with explanations on how things work. It's the narrative's job to do this. This "we don't know how X works, so it isn't a plot hole" is fanboy logic. Don't tell me if Boruto can work. Tell us how it does work and to do so by citing the actual source material.

 

Second, everything you've listed can be discerned simply by reading the original manga:

 

Maximum Shadow Clone Count: We've seen Naruto create 1000 on numerous occasions and saw him actively using 1000 while fighting a war, able to fight multiple dangerous and highly technical battles against ferocious foes all at the same time. During the training arc, when he was attempting to undergo what was the equivalent to years of training in a single day,  it was 200. And that was despite having less experience/skill/physique than his current self and despite not relying on Kurama's chakra.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

How long the shadowclones can last:  

 

They last until they are destroyed, dispelled or upon the death of the jutsu's user. Simply having them out does not consume any chakra. All of the chakra is divided up upon activating the jutsu:

 

 

 

Effects of Fatigue in Shadow Clone Efficiency:

 

As pointed out above, chakra gets divided up upon each clone. Actively using the clones does not in itself cause any fatigue. The only fatigue that has ever been in association with this technique is the mental variety and only a result of Naruto trying to learn years of information in one day. Nothing that couldn't be fixed with a single bowl of ramen:

 

 

 

 

Long Term Effect of constant daily, Shadow Clone use:

 

Naruto's entire combat style revolves around this jutsu and he's been using it ever since he was 12. There is absolutely no indication of there being some "long term effect" we know nothing about.    

 

Effectiveness with Advanced/Non-Combat efforts in an office setting:

 

This one is grasping at straws.

 

 

 

Nonetheless, high level espionage counts as non-combat purposes, so I think it's safe to say that the jutsu can be used outside of combat.

Edited by ThroughWithLove, 25 July 2017 - 12:56 AM.

[ThroughWithLove]

@ ThroughWithLove

 

The reason the last fails is cause it changes things from Naruto knowing how to use Shadow clones before he knew it to Hinata being builed for her eyes, to me this one makes the least sense and this is just the start of the film as well, I mean I asked myself when I watched it why is Hinata getting bullied for her eyes when everyone on her clan has them as well, then I ask why is no one watching over Hinata, I mean she was meant to be the next in line to lead her Clan after all so she should have a body guard watching over her.

 

Here's the killing part: The script for that movie went through multiple drafts and rewrites. Apparently, there multiple worse versions of that film that what we actually got in the end, so I'm not that surprised that the final version still manages to butcher the source material.

 

In regards to Hinata in general, I've been looking over old Kishimoto interviews and I think what happened was that he gave up on trying to maintain Sakura's status as the heroine." From this mindset, it makes sense why he became fixated on trying to make Sakura more likeable (making her prettier, less violent towards Naruto, letting her beat an Akatsuki member, not doing anything with Hinata for a large part of the manga, promising to work harder to make Sakura a better heroine and promising "Sakura's year" multiple times during Jump Fiesta interviews). When all of that failed and the vitriol against the character remained unabated, he said "screw it"  and lo and behold, Hinata is unofficially crowned the heroine (earliest in chapter 437, latest in chapter 615). Even then, he still does a lousy job. So I think his problem was not with writing Sakura or Hinata, but simply not knowing how to write a proper heroine.

 

 

@ ThroughWithLove

 

with number 3 yeah I hate Boruto as well man he reminds me too much of Sasuke thinking that he is the best and cool while kittening he has daddy issues I mean I ask a friend last week what he would like to see a sequel of Boruto or one that involves Pan and her family.

 

I know, right? With Naruto, at least throughout much of the manga, I found myself rooting for him. With Boruto, I find myself looking for the remote. Terrible character.

 

 

 

funny thing is he said Pan at only 4 would beat Boruto so badly that she does not even need Super Saiyan to beat him, hell I know Boruto  would think that he could take Pan on, what more funny is my friend said that Pan would Punch him in the kitten so hard the same thing would happen as it did in Teamfourstar films when this happened to Goku and Vegeta with Boruto saying this. "She punched me in the kitten why, why did she punch me in the kitten."

 

I'd love to see that.

[ThroughWithLove]

 

Your first example -is- crude. I can't. I don't even know what that is, nor any interest to explore that. Noteworthy however, is you're talking about genres here, so moving this to something more appropriate, like movies, comparing movie genres is one thing, talking about a movie and its sequel, saying its sequel is awful without watching it, is another. The logic you present still does not stand.

 

 

Well now hold on a minute. How can you even say you're interested in scat or bestiality pornography if you haven't even given it a chance? You are in no position to say you're interested until you watch some first and foremost. You mention genres (a concession on your part, by the way, since you're still agreeing that judgment can be made without viewing the material, only with some exceptions), so allow me to pacify you by asking if you would be interested in watching/reading an action adventure oriented film/webcomic with pornographic scat or bestiality as its centerpiece. If your answer is anything other than "I'd love to give it shot", then I'm going to refer you back to your own comments in regards to my refusal to watch or read Boruto any further than what I've already seen and call it a night on this part of our conversation.

 

 

 

Sure, theme's explored, but it's a persistent medium, and here, it's a slightly different variable. Can criticize that if you want change from the old, and that's fair, as is fair to welcome the working of using something that is successful.

 

Slightly different is not really enough, however, and lends credence to the idea that the series is a cashgrab. Why not have something original? Something that can stand on its own legs? Perhaps this is one of the reasons viewers in Japan grow more and more disinterested in this series.

 

 

Skimming isn't really reading. Read it. Then let's talk.

 

Right after you give me an informed opinion on scat/bestiality porn.

 

 

No, your evidence isn't weighted? How is this weighted? Where do these ratings come from? What are the global ratings? I'll actually accept and agree that Boruto probably -isn't- doing as well as its predecessor mind, but I don't think there's much of a foundation to put on actual polls.

 

It isn't weighted . . . because? And  I have no idea what the global ratings are nor do am I really interested in finding out. This series is primarily marketed towards Japan and it is interest in Japan that decides whether this show gets canned early or allowed to continue. If we can agree that interest in Japan is declining, you can refer back to my initial points in this thread and we can call it a night on this area of discussion. 

 

 

 

We can't now what the producers would think. I don't think that's an argument we could really get into. I don't think really, that they think in terms of pairings and labels like any of us do. It's an argument you can put forward though, and one I could argue against, simply saying:  You can -only- guess.

 

We can make inferences on what the producers believed via circumstantial evidence. And the fact of the matter is that this revolves around Naruto and Hinata getting together. The fact of the matter is that there are numerous NaruHina fans that openly and proudly contribute to the Naruto community. The fact of the matter is that this movie made a great deal of profit. So I would ask once more: Are you denying  that the producers were aware that NH fans would be the most likely to like the film?

 

 

No, the Author doesn't have to fill in every single little detail. Here's the thing, he -is- showing you that the constant Shadow clone usage is tiring him. Evidence Cited is when the clone drops the cake. So no, it's not "fanboy" logic. It actually happened. Besides, if it could happen, then explain why Naruto isn't doing it? I think this question was even addressed in the Anime, Boruto -asks- this question. It's not unaddressed.

 

When the story introduces a problem that, based on existing lore, can easily be solved by the protagonists but isn't, it is imperative that the author fills in the details. Otherwise, we have ourselves a plot hole. And in this case, I'd go far as to call it a retcon. Your cited example is contradicted by the fact that a weaker and younger version of Naruto without the kyuubi chakra is able to engage in tasks far more strenuous than paper work without the clones disappearing. In fact, the clones only ever disappear if the user dispels them, the user gets knocked out, or the clone runs out of chakra. The latter two are the only explanations that could fit that scene, but it doesn't change the overall problem. This is a dude who managed to learned years of information in a single day and was able to keep himself refreshed with bowls of ramen. And that's prior to getting chakra resources increased 100 fold. Of course he can spend time with his family while delegating mindless paper work to shadowclones.  

 

As for why Naruto isn't doing it, that's fairly simple. Because the writer is too lazy to reread the source material and the original author cares more about telling a story about himself than being faithful to his own writing (which explains a lot of things, not just Boruto). Of course, if we're permitted to resort to fanboy logic, then I would submit my own fanon theory that "being too busy" is actually a ploy and that he's really off having an adulterous affair with Sakura.

 

 

 

Not sure if any of your cited evidence actually supports your statement: The Panels do not suggest maximum fatigue, tell the maximum, or put them under the exact conditions he is in now, or an office setting with those specific tasks. Granted the last one is very minor and stretchy, I'll admit, but it's a point all the same.

 

They all support it. You're just grasping to devil's advocate extremes. Take this 'maximum fatigue' and 'office setting conditions' for example. Here we see Naruto learning what Kakashi describes as a concept that requires years of mastery in a single day fueled with nothing but a big bowl of ramen and yet you seem to be implying that doing mindless paper work in an office setting is somehow of a higher magnitude of stress.  Learning years of material in a day and fighting in thousand vastly different places at once in a war is the bar the manga sets and mindless paper work simply doesn't come close.

[Honestly]

You mean aside from betraying his village by working under a missing nin that killed his village's leader and expressed an open willingness and intent to kill his proclaimed best friend to acquire more power (as shown when he impaled Naruto's lungs and broke his neck, both acts of which he had no idea he could heal from at the time)? Or how after he acquired his vengeance, turned his hatred over to his own village with designs to annihilate it, with no thought given on the innocent lives he would destroy? Or how he later had the idea of becoming Hokage, though his vision of Hokage would be based upon forceful subjugation and totalitarianism?

hmm hear the thing Sasuke and Naruto are no friend you know I read a blog who basically some up how I feel about that so call friendship naruto pretty much wanted sasuke to come back to the village so Sasuke can see how strong he's getting and praise him because let face it.it really wasn't about orochimaru it was always about sasuke to acknowledge him.the first time I watched that episode I hated sasuke for doing that to Naruto but when naruto continue going on and on about him and Sasuke bond I was like where is that great bond that I miss. that whole fight wasn't even about POAL it was all about sasuke coming back to the village to acknowledge him so I don't blame sasuke naruto was annoying in VOTE 1and even 2.and has for working for a Missing nin weren't the two of them using each other and do you really miss hiruzen Knowing his history the man was spineless.as for that village I am starting to think that village is curse and I am not a fan of it you have a lunatic madman that kills his whole clan just to please the village and many more kitten that happens and has for Sasuke wanting to become hokage to me that was a joke I didn't take it that seriously.that was a rant sorry about that

[VanitasDS76491]

@ ThroughWithLove
 
I do agree with you man I have been looking at other Manga ending and so far none have not a film that comes out after its ending other than Naruto, I mean Fairy tail has just ended I mean its like if the writer and studio says after an ending there is a film coming that is the true ending, Dragonball Z didn't do, we just got GT which we all know how that went it got canceled because it was so bad, we got no film after the Manga ended.
 
The reason the last fails is cause it changes things from Naruto knowing how to use Shadow clones before he knew it to Hinata being builed for her eyes, to me this one makes the least sense and this is just the start of the film as well, I mean I asked myself when I watched it why is Hinata getting bullied for her eyes when everyone on her clan has them as well, then I ask why is no one watching over Hinata, I mean she was meant to be the next in line to lead her Clan after all so she should have a body guard watching over her.
 
So this is a point her being bullied cause of her eyes makes no sense at all and and her being bullied is taken from Sakura from when she was picked on for her large forehead that she hated.
 
with number 3 yeah I hate Boruto as well man he reminds me too much of Sasuke thinking that he is the best and cool while kittening he has daddy issues I mean I ask a friend last week what he would like to see a sequel of Boruto or one that involves Pan and her family.
 
He said Pan, because she is not full of herself like Boruto she is fun look at her in the end of Z, add onto the power she has shown us in Super, he said she sees everything as fun like Goku but with Gohan's power and smarts as well, plus she has a good relationship with her parents, and they love her, hell its shown what a good father Gohan is in super when he turned down a good job so he can stay closer to Videl and Pan.
 
funny thing is he said Pan at only 4 would beat Boruto so badly that she does not even need Super Saiyan to beat him, hell I know Boruto  would think that he could take Pan on, what more funny is my friend said that Pan would Punch him in the kitten so hard the same thing would happen as it did in Teamfourstar films when this happened to Goku and Vegeta with Boruto saying this. "She punched me in the kitten why, why did she punch me in the kitten."
 
Another line he gave me would be this from Boruto since Pan would ask does he believe in his own Hype that much. "I am the hype." And Vegeta wanting Pan to kill him.

I would love if that happens to bolt and pan did a super 13 on him, and vegeta saying kill him after bolt is the hype. My friend firstevil100 might put that in a story of his as an Omake where pan does that and bolt has a high pitched voice forever since he's balls when back into his body like Allister in yugioh abridged.

[Bail o' Lies]

Here the thing I have read the Boruto manga, and watched the Boruto anime. Both are average at best. In fact if not for that first ten month of wasted time I would say the manga is better then the anime. The first actual arc of the manga chapter 11-15 is better then the first 15 episodes of the anime. Bolt is also a slightly better character in the manga. All the said. It is average at best and that's me being generous,

 

One could argue that the pairing weren't decided till the final Sasuke Naruto fight.

 

Now as for the shadow clone thing. It could be seen as a bad thing if the hokage hands off his job to his shadow clones and is never at the office himself. But that said the fact that he is there all the time and seem to have far more paperwork then any other kage. Gaara seemed fine at his job, same with Sarutobi, or any of the other kages. Tsunade had problems but it was implied that it was because she was lazy and would let it stack up...also that was more an anime filler thing. In the manga Tsunade was never really bogged down by paperwork and instead by petty internal village bureaucracy and politics. She thought she had time to go a mission and help Jiraiya investigate the Rain village. So Naruto working harder and longer hours then his contemporaries yet is less efficient and effective then them is a bad thing. Now lets just say the changing time and the growth of the village added more paperwork. OK. Naruto and Shikamaru should have realized this and tried finding ways to improve their system to make it more efficient so they are not bogged down with paperwork to the point that the village leader rarely goes home. The fact that they haven't done any changes to even this just gives another point to show how bad they are at their job as well as failed at their ideals. Since they again refuse to change the system.

[TouKen4Life3g]

Am I the only one that feel like the tone is dated?

[ThroughWithLove]

 

Being interested, and saying something is good or bad is completely different. You -cannot- say the Anime is bad, if you haven't watched it. You -can- say you aren't interested in it, based on what it is about. Advertising/Marketing is made to catch your interest, whether or not it is ultimately good, is judged by the complete viewing. Do you understand now?

 

 

How can you determine whether you are interested in scat/bestiliaty porno without first watching it for yourself? Believe me, there is no way to scuttle around the right answer.

 

Sure, I will actually agree that they could do more to make Boruto unique. Their is attempt made, but it's quite valid to say you want more, with substance on it. Cash grab though? It's an insulting, unprofessional term that I won't use myself, but I think Boruto is trying to do more then that.

 

 

See that? We actually agree on something for once. So lets explore that a bit: Why do you think they didn't they do more to make Boruto unique?

 

Analyzer, my friend, we live in a dog-eat-dog world. And though I appreciate your desire to avoid terms like "cash grabs" and other 'unprofessional' diction, I'm afraid it's the reality of how many people do business. I wish this weren't the case, but it is and simply trying to say otherwise doesn't change this. Don't believe me? Just look at the practice day-one on-disk DLCs. 

 

3: See the first pargraph. Interest is different than judgling quality. I won't judge quality of the subject matter, because I have no interest in the subject matter. Here, you are -judging- the quality of a subject matter, which you have no interest, but you've not done more than skim, and haven't watched the anime. Note the difference?

 

Which doesn't answer how I am able to determine I'm not interested without actually watching it first. Believe me, there's no scuttling around the right answer here. Clearly, we are capable of making determinations about materials without viewing them. The question is how you are going to admit this without contradicting your position that I cannot say Boruto is bad without watching the anime or reading the manga.  You might have enough MP to cast semanticaga again, but I've got reflect activated, so it won't make any difference.

 

 

A decline of interest doesn't equate a series should die. Yes, I do think it's not doing as well, for reasons I can state, and have about its quality, but I have no solid foundation to measure what is how well, or what are its expectations in how well it's supposed to do, and if it's surpassing those expectations.

 

 

If Boruto can somehow rise above being yet another cash grab that exist for no other purpose besides fattening Shounen Jump and Studio Pierott's pockets, it should not die. But based on the current trend, death is appropriate. It's going to be hard changing the series enough given what the Boruto movie boxes the writer into. I wonder what tricks the writer will employ out of one last cry of desperation. Kill Naruto off? Try to create another love triangle? Add new characters? Another tournament arc? Or maybe a timeskip? That last one could potentially do the trick if done right. We'l have to see.

 

 

 

The next part I can't answer? We cannot assume what the producers were thinking. I personally do not believe people think in terms of pairings like that. I think they were thinking more in general, and Frankly, the Last was quite successful to a general audience. Circumstantial evidence can create inferences, but understand that this sort of evidence is not strong evidence.

 

 

We're not assuming. We're inferring based on the evidence available to us and making determination on what is most likely.. For example, we can infer that they do think in terms of pairings given all the shiptease throughout the series and the fanservice throughout the film.

 

 

 

Again, this Plot Hole argument fails. If you watch the Anime, this is specifically addressed. Heck, he -is- using Shadow Clones, for all the examples you are saying, and its not quite working out. So yeah, no plot hole. Sorry. And saying the Writer is too lazy is another weak circumstantial argument. You should be respectful here and even -avoid- such a label, because you don't know how much work the writer's put in. Of course, no surprise with the term fanboy/girl following up here.

 

 

 

 

"It is not quite working out" is not an explanation; it's lampshading. Basically, the writer has told us "Yeah, this is a plot hole, but I don't care! This is the way things are gonna be now. Deal with it!"  An explanation would be "Naruto isn't simply doing mindless paper work. He's also picked up the slack by doing most of the missions himself and is actively using 10,000 shadowclones every day while everyone else sits around in luxury."

 

 

 

Sure, Naruto recovered fast. But Naruto now is putting -constant- strain on himself. The situation is not the same. You are trying to make it the same and fit it into these measurements, and it doesn't hold up.

 

 

The point here is that there's never been any indication that frequent shadow clone use puts a "constant strain" on the dude and given that this jutsu is very essence of Naruto's fighting style and that he has used it and infinitely more taxing jutsus at high intervals without succumbing to this "constant strain" you're postulating, it doesn't follow and is therefore what I dubbed earlier: Fanboy logic. The only argument you could possibly make here is mental strain upon each instance of him dispelling clones. Problem is that (1) He is doing mindless paper work, not learning years of information in a single day and (2) A big bowl ramen is all he needs to be back at 100% when NOT using Kurama's chakra.

Edited by ThroughWithLove, 25 July 2017 - 03:08 PM.

[ThroughWithLove]

Now as for the shadow clone thing. It could be seen as a bad thing if the hokage hands off his job to his shadow clones and is never at the office himself. But that said the fact that he is there all the time and seem to have far more paperwork then any other kage. Gaara seemed fine at his job, same with Sarutobi, or any of the other kages. Tsunade had problems but it was implied that it was because she was lazy and would let it stack up...also that was more an anime filler thing. In the manga Tsunade was never really bogged down by paperwork and instead by petty internal village bureaucracy and politics. She thought she had time to go a mission and help Jiraiya investigate the Rain village. So Naruto working harder and longer hours then his contemporaries yet is less efficient and effective then them is a bad thing. Now lets just say the changing time and the growth of the village added more paperwork. OK. Naruto and Shikamaru should have realized this and tried finding ways to improve their system to make it more efficient so they are not bogged down with paperwork to the point that the village leader rarely goes home. The fact that they haven't done any changes to even this just gives another point to show how bad they are at their job as well as failed at their ideals. Since they again refuse to change the system.

 

I could understand the "It could be seen as a bad thing" perspective if Naruto were using his clones to handle diplomatic meetings and whatnot, but the film clearly shows us that it's a bunch of mindless paper work and I just don't buy any notion that people are gonna get upset if he uses clones to read and stamp mindless paper work. In the real world, that's something you delegate to pencil pushers and interns anyway. And even IF it's a matter of the village being bigger and there being more paperwork to sort through than for the previous kages, this is a guy who can literally process years of information in a single day fueled by nothing but bowls of ramen. There's no conceivable way he would ever have trouble doing daily paper work and spending time with his family. Instead, it'd only take Naruto 20 minutes to do an entire day's work and he'd immediately eat himself a big bowl of ramen afterwards and spend the rest of the day hanging out at home. And that's without Kurama's chakra. With it, he'd be done with a day's work in under thirty seconds, would eat two big bowls of ramen and would be good to go! 

Edited by ThroughWithLove, 25 July 2017 - 03:21 PM.

[TouKen4Life3g]

I don't know. Something about it feel dated. It's an odd feeling. I mean it still don't release on Blu-ray, even for Boruto. It's like it don't want to expose its coloring or something. I don't know.

[ThroughWithLove]

 

 

1: Interest. It has to catch you. Interest and liking are inherently different things. You are trying to connect them, and while one acutes into the other, they are not a mold or synonym. I can watch that, or I can write a book. My interest leans toward the book. I won't know if I like the former, but I don't have an interest in finding out. But unlike you, I am not judging it. 

 

I told you there's no scuttling around the truth here. Lets ask again: How can you determine whether you are interested in scat/bestiliaty porno without first watching it for yourself? We both know the answer. Just go ahead and tell us so we can move on.

 

And yes, I know exactly why your interest lean towards writing the book without actually having partaken in the experience of writing said book, so surely you know the answer to my question.

 

 

 

The next part is in regards to the Anime, as I'm not a huge absorber of the Manga to comment much. The answer is simple, IMO: The Writers are just starting with this character, really, and they haven't yet found there key differences to catalyze on. It's also the theme in a sense, as Boruto doesn't want to see anyone hurt, and fights neither friend (Mitsuki and Sumire) in their stand off against eachother. In a sense, this is different, this is more Sakura (Stopping Naruto and Sasuke going at eachother, saving Sasuke from his darkness and Naruto from hurting him), but I want a bit more oomph then that, because this still connects to the old Naruto theme. But oddly in this struggle, having Boruto kill and go towards what suggests a want for a bit darker in my bias won't work. So the problem at hand doesn't have an easy resolution. They're making him different, but there has to be a way somehow to really branch him off. Perhaps that will come later.

 

If they still haven't found key differences catalyze on, why not wait a bit longer? Why not take more time to think about the direction they want this series to go in? What is the rush exactly?

 

Also (and this doesn't connect to my above line of questioning, but is moreso out of personal curiosity), why would going a bit darker not work? They've got an entire generation of fans who grew up on the original and have graduated past the whole shounen genre, so there's definitely an audience out there for more mature themes.

 

 

Sure, they throw in fanservice in regards to really everything and anything, but its still fan-service in general to fans, not a specific one-group target. That is the noteworthy difference you need to understand. 

 

Can we agree that they were aware of the entire vocal groups of the fandom that called themselves shippers? Can we agree that they were aware of social media outlets like facebook, youtube and tumblr? 

 

 

 

No, I don't think any of the current tools you are suggesting need to be done, because Boruto isn't in a desperate place. The Anime honestly has gotten better and I'm keen on where it goes next. When I give the Manga a full read, I'll give my thoughts. 

 

The show is in decline however from a ratings standpoint. Surely we can agree that it would be prudent for the writer(s) to do something to reverse the trend?

 

 

Lampshading is used incorrectly, because there isn't a plot hole, as I previously discussed. You have this rigid working of how Shadow clones work, and through your interpretation, there is a hole. Perhaps the problem is your interpretation and your own, forgive me for reversing your own term with snark, "fanboy logic". Which delves into the last paragraph's problems as well. 

 

You previously explained the the show addressed this problem by saying "It's not quite working out", right? Because if I'm understanding you correctly:

 

Lampshade Hanging (or, more informally, "Lampshading") is the writers' trick of dealing with any element of the story that threatens the audience's Willing Suspension of Disbelief, whether a very implausible plot development, or a particularly blatant use of a trope, by calling attention to it and simply moving on.

 

 

This is spot on.