54216 replies to this topic

[Illnevergiveup3]

No. But Hinata is the reason why it kept hurting Sakura. She would have punched him in the face if Hinata was dead. But instead she's acting like a 12 year old girl in her 30s, all because of Hinata.

 

"But Sakura isn't hurt though??????????? She pushed them together in the LAST." 

 

'I don't see how Hinata is to blame, Sakura never loved Naruto and she was never hurt by it in the least." 

 

And all that other coonery horse kitten. 

[DrK]

 

"But Sakura isn't hurt though??????????? She pushed them together in the LAST." 

 

'I don't see how Hinata is to blame, Sakura never loved Naruto and she was never hurt by it in the least." 

 

And all that other coonery horse kitten. 

I mean, there has to be a reason for this bizarre, misanthropic behavior on the part of Sakura. She had a completely normal childhood and two parents who loved her. There has to be something making her act this way. Even if you don't understand that Kishimoto loves money, you need to at least be curious about the reason for this if you have a questing mind. And the reason has blue hair and faints around Naruto.

[Illnevergiveup3]

I mean, there has to be a reason for this bizarre, misanthropic behavior on the part of Sakura. She had a completely normal childhood and two parents who loved her. There has to be something making her act this way. Even if you don't understand that Kishimoto loves money, you need to at least be curious about the reason for this if you have a questing mind. And the reason has blue hair and faints around Naruto.

 

the only reason this happened in my opinion was the fact that Sakura-Chan thought Hinata would make Naruto happier than she could at the end of it all, and decided to push them together, which explains her fake smile at the end of The Last. 

[Phantom_999]

Well, yeah, but almost every love story now is better written than SasuSaku and NaruHina at this point. Even Twilight. The big issue with the "bad boy and the main girl character" trope vs SasuSaku is that in every other story where this trope occurs...the bad boy doesn't attempt to murder the girl three times, leave her to die on several occasions, and for most of the story until the last possible chapter treat the girl like kitten and subhuman.

Take the Fruits Basket one. There only one character that attempted to kill Tohru in the story, but they didn't fall in love. Kyo was actually nice to Tohru and cared about her well being despite being a "bad boy." He never purposely tried to hurt Tohru and never purposely tried to insult her. In fact, quite the opposet he tried to be nice to her and not make her feel bad about things like purposely eating the Valentine's chocolate she gave him because he didn't want to be rude. He did it in a uncouth way, but he still meant well and that's the difference.

The other bad boys in stories, if they are the good guys, only look bad because they are introverts who had a hard life and have a hard time expressing themselves through emotional connection. It's not to say they can't be nice, but they do it in a way that suits them. Also, they do it in a way that maintains their pride.

As another example look at Kazuma from Kaze No Stigma where he acts and looks like a huge kitten and it is understandable. His family kicked him out because they told him he was weak. They treated him like crap and so he began to hate the Kannagi family for what he quotes is "Their ideal sense of Supperiority" especially when they are the only ones in power. This is true. They all acted, save for maybe one, that they felt their family were the supperior family no matter what. but then cry victim when they lose that power or someone contends with that. However, Kazuma, while he is an kitten, is not a villain because he doesn't kill the weak or leave them for dead. He protects the people who have no power or can;t go farther, but looks down people who CAN become more powerful in themselves and chooses not to because they can pay someone else to do it. Which is ironic since Kazuma's profession is a mercenary. 

Kazuma, at least in the anime because I never read the light novels, never kills people or hurts the main girl in the series because he find her useless. He does knock some sense into her everytime she acts supperior though and tells her that "dying recklessly for the sake of heroism is stupid." He much rather live and beat the opposition than die weak for a stupid cause. He never leaves Ayano to die, even if he does joke about it, and he never attempts to kill her. 

There was one time he does become evil, but he was more or less abused by the real villain using Kazuma's depression and weakness against him. Kazuma is eventually snapped out of his by Ayano who fights him to knock some sense into him.

Do you see the difference? In on other stories, the female isn't helpless, stands on her own, and never bows to the "bad boy" being this obsessed fangirl of the bad boy, but rather she falls in love with him gradully because the bad boy isn't just a walking kitten head with legs. He is a person who just had a rough life and it has become a coping mechanism for him. He is not inheriantly evil...he just feels he can only rely on himself because everyone else he went to for help let him down.

This is totally different from SasuSaku where the girl is weak in the beginning and has a massive obsession with bad boy. The Bad boy treats this girl with utter disdain and just treats her like crap every chance he gets. The girl pines for him the more he pushes her away and then cries when he won't do what she wants. The bad boy becomes evil because reasons and then proceeds to ignore the girl or see no purpose in her and even attempts to kill her for her to get out of HIS way and the girl simply just rolls over like a good dog and never understand why he does this to her. "Yes master....how can I help you today? Do you want to wipe your dirty feet on me? That would be a great honor for me."

It's almost like the girl WANTS the guy to treat her like kitten because she is so desperate for attention that even negative attention is better than no attention at all....and this makes the girl look pathetic.

The sad part is...this applies to Hinata as well. If Naruto treated Hinata like Sasuke treated Sakura...Hinata would probably still be infatuated with Naruto and love the attention from him. I once saw someone redraw the Sasuke and Sakura heart stab with Hinata and Naruto and....I wondered if NH would still say that is love.

That is an interesting question.....if Naruto treated Hinata like Sasuke treated Sakura....would they all still say that Hinata is great or that their relationship is great?

 

Well, Like I said it is one thing to be a "bad boy", But Sasuke pushed well beyond that and became a sociopathic megalomaniac. Therefore the girl wants' "bad boy" doesn't hold water here

Edited by Phantom_999, 07 December 2017 - 11:48 PM.

[DrK]

And then you remember Karin exists and everything that is horrible about it seems even more unnecessary. It literally could not be MORE OBVIOUS that he did not need to do SS or plan to do SS and yet he did because he has no spine. Karin has no purpose. And no attempt to mitigate the toxicity of it was made. Absolutely pathetic.

Edited by DrK, 08 December 2017 - 12:00 AM.

[James S Cassidy]

 

Well, Like I said it is one thing to be a "bad boy", But Sasuke pushed well beyond that and became a sociopathic megalomaniac. Therefore the girl wants' "bad boy" doesn't hold water here

Which only proves that SS was never a true intention, but rather a by-product of pushing NH together. They didn't put SS together because the fans wanted the pairing to be canon. They pushed SS together because the fans wanted NH to be together and SS being the extreme case of "pair the spares."

If SS was really an intention, why not write the relationship between Sasuke and Sakura more like the other "Bad boy and the main girl" tropes. Kazuma and Kyo, the two examples, are nothing even similar to Sasuke and how he was portrayed. In fact, the real bad boy tropes are usually against sociopathic megalomaniac people around them and they openly defy and break down said system. Basically, clashing with authority because the authority, they feel, is too corrupted and doesn't understand the simple folk. Not "become the bad boy because they are corrupted and feel superiority." That is usually what the villain becomes.

The point of Sakura loving Sasuke since the beginning is not a reason why they are together now....it is an excuse for the people to use for why they should be together in the first place. An excuse that stops holding water because it makes it treat people are possessions and not as characters.

If it were not the case, then by that logic Naruto and Sakura should have still be together because Naruto loved Sakura since the beginning....and the Studio knew this. They knew that this argument could be used against them...so they made it seem like Naruto never loved Sakura to begin with.

"Sakura should be with Sasuke and Hinata should be with Naruto because they loved them since the beginning"
"Okay, but Ino loved Sasuke and Naruto loved Sakura since the beginning, so why didn't these pairings comes to pass if that was the case?"
"ummm....hold on a sec." *takes a black pen, blacks out some chapters and rewrite new lines* "See? Naruto and Ino never loved them since the beginning and it was all a rivalry game. So it doesn't count for them cause we changed and retconed that."

If SS and NH were the intention since chapter 1....then they would have written it better that way. Yeah, Kishimoto may be bad at writing romance, but isn;t the point of Editors to make sure that the point is getting across effectively?

"Substantive editor—Helps a writer improve his fiction manuscript by focusing on story elements, plot, characterization, dialogue, order of scenes, point of view, voice, setting, word choice, sentence construction and syntax, and pace—anything that could improve the strength of the manuscript."

An editor can change the writing of a story if they see fit with or without the writers stand point and it is not uncommon for writers and editors to fight with each other and have problems. Many writers even claim that editors mess with their work too much and even change the context for their own agenda.
https://diannej.com/...ange-your-work/

So when it comes to a story like Naruto, let me ask this and this is for anyone....do you think the writer has the ultimate choice or does the editor? What if the writer's intent is different from his editor's intent or what if the writer wanted to do something that the editor didn't want him to? What happens if Kishimoto wants NS, but his editor did not? Should theeditor comply with what the writer wants or do you think the editor can change whatever they want to what they feel is "to better improve the story" in what they think is better?

We talk about Kishimoto's intent and what not and maybe Kishimoto is bad at writing romance and if he left that task to his editor to fill those in....then I can see why such a huge discrepencies have occured. Writers have given up on editors who were too stuck up and felt they were always right and the writer they work for is wrong. This also explain why Kishimoto went through so many editors.

Yahagi was the editor that stayed the longest he stayed until he wanted to leave and do other things. Yahagi seemed like the man who was more intuned with the story at its base and just wanted to improve of the story to better convey the message rather than change the message outright.



 

Edited by James S Cassidy, 08 December 2017 - 05:07 PM.

[DrK]

Imagine if they got an interviewer who actually read the manga.

 

Kishimoto: "It was all about Naruto and Hinata getting married from an early stage."

Interviewer: "Have you read your own manga? It's incredibly obvious that it wasn't about Naruto and Hinata getting married from an early stage, or at all."

K: "I planned it from the beginning."

I: "No you didn't."

K: "OK, I planned it from the middle."

I: "You mean from the part where Sakura hugs Naruto right after being hurt by the fact that Hinata loves Naruto?"

K: "Yes, that's when I decided to have Naruto and Hinata get married. That was the precise moment when I decided that Sakura was too obsessed with Sasuke to fall in love with Naruto. Thank you for reminding me."

I: "..."

 

Interviewer gets up and walks out. Kishi is sitting by himself.

 

Kishimoto: "I wish I could go back and change it now. I look ridiculous."

[HalfDemonInuyasha]

If SS was really an intention, why not write the relationship between Sasuke and Sakura more like the other "Bad boy and the main girl" tropes. Kazuma and Kyo, the two examples, are nothing even similar to Sasuke and how he was portrayed. In fact, the real bad boy tropes are usually against sociopathic megalomaniac people around them and they openly defy and break down said system. Basically, clashing with authority because the authority, they feel, is too corrupted and doesn't understand the simple folk. Not "become the bad boy because they are corrupted and feel superiority." That is usually what the villain becomes.
 

It feels like people saw how BS things had become and tried to have Kishi write Sasuke like that at the very last second with the whole "change / abolish the ninja system" thing with Naruto, but of course, without the actual effort to create a foundation, then actually build it up properly, it only further added to the BS...on top of NOT changing out Sasuke out of that attitude at the same time...

[Bryon_Konoha_Ninja]

It feels like people saw how BS things had become and tried to have Kishi write Sasuke like that at the very last second with the whole "change / abolish the ninja system" thing with Naruto, but of course, without the actual effort to create a foundation, then actually build it up properly, it only further added to the BS...on top of NOT changing out Sasuke out of that attitude at the same time...

 

And without the foundation, there's nothing but to let things fall to ****

[Bryon_Konoha_Ninja]

Which only proves that SS was never a true intention, but rather a by-product of pushing NH together. They didn't put SS together because the fans wanted the pairing to be canon. They pushed SS together because the fans wanted NH to be together and SS being the extreme case of "pair the spares."
If SS was really an intention, why not write the relationship between Sasuke and Sakura more like the other "Bad boy and the main girl" tropes. Kazuma and Kyo, the two examples, are nothing even similar to Sasuke and how he was portrayed. In fact, the real bad boy tropes are usually against sociopathic megalomaniac people around them and they openly defy and break down said system. Basically, clashing with authority because the authority, they feel, is too corrupted and doesn't understand the simple folk. Not "become the bad boy because they are corrupted and feel superiority." That is usually what the villain becomes.
The point of Sakura loving Sasuke since the beginning is not a reason why they are together now....it is an excuse for the people to use for why they should be together in the first place. An excuse that stops holding water because it makes it treat people are possessions and not as characters.
If it were not the case, then by that logic Naruto and Sakura should have still be together because Naruto loved Sakura since the beginning....and the Studio knew this. They knew that this argument could be used against them...so they made it seem like Naruto never loved Sakura to begin with.
"Sakura should be with Sasuke and Hinata should be with Naruto because they loved them since the beginning"
"Okay, but Ino loved Sasuke and Naruto loved Sakura since the beginning, so why didn't these pairings comes to pass if that was the case?"
"ummm....hold on a sec." *takes a black pen, blacks out some chapters and rewrite new lines* "See? Naruto and Ino never loved them since the beginning and it was all a rivalry game. So it doesn't count for them cause we changed and retconed that."
If SS and NH were the intention since chapter 1....then they would have written it better that way. Yeah, Kishimoto may be bad at writing romance, but isn;t the point of Editors to make sure that the point is getting across effectively?
"Substantive editorHelps a writer improve his fiction manuscript by focusing on story elements, plot, characterization, dialogue, order of scenes, point of view, voice, setting, word choice, sentence construction and syntax, and paceanything that could improve the strength of the manuscript."
An editor can change the writing of a story if they see fit with or without the writers stand point and it is not uncommon for writers and editors to fight with each other and have problems. Many writers even claim that editors mess with their work too much and even change the context for their own agenda.
https://diannej.com/...ange-your-work/
So when it comes to a story like Naruto, let me ask this and this is for anyone....do you think the writer has the ultimate choice or does the editor? What if the writer's intent is different from his editor's intent or what if the writer wanted to do something that the editor didn't want him to? What happens if Kishimoto wants NS, but his editor did not? Should theeditor comply with what the writer wants or do you think the editor can change whatever they want to what they feel is "to better improve the story" in what they think is better?
We talk about Kishimoto's intent and what not and maybe Kishimoto is bad at writing romance and if he left that task to his editor to fill those in....then I can see why such a huge discrepencies have occured. Writers have given up on editors who were too stuck up and felt they were always writer and the writer they work for is wrong. This also explain why Kishimoto went through so many editors.
Yahagi was the editor that stayed the longest he stayed until he wanted to leave and do other things. Yahagi seemed like the man who was more intuned with the story at its base and just wanted to improve of the story to better convey the message rather than change the message outright.

O_O Damn, James!

But what you said is true in all forms of prose. It even happens in another medium I am familiar with, and that's comic books. A lot of times, editors will do stuff that goes against what the writers and pencilliers are out to do. And that creates a huge conflict of sorts when trying to work out the best approach to continuing a story, and can affect continuity no matter what.

And in any writing, continuity to me is the most important thing, since without it and consistency, which go hand in hand, you can end with a hot mess. And that's what you see in Naruto, no matter what the irritating winds of late here are saying, and such, that is why we're pissed, nothing other than that.

[Tsuki Hoshino]

Go quantify how much you like NS in a thread and then maybe people will feel like you're deserving of any evidence

[Bryon_Konoha_Ninja]

Go quantify how much you like NS in a thread and then maybe people will feel like you're deserving of any evidence

True dat, Tsuki. But the buzzing from you know who is not worth it to me. She can say what she wants, but her opinion is crappy because she lashes out at us for not following her lead. All you can do is ignore her, or don't say her name.

[James S Cassidy]

It doesn't matter what Analyzer says at this point....there is nothing to prove that SS and NH were an intention since the beginning and there is plenty of evidence that putting those characters together was a retcon within itself. Not only that, but more proof is in the fact that many people among Kishimoto's own staff and family saw NS being the endgame and were surprised just as much as we are. Heck, the Japanese demographic were surprised and some even upset that NH and SS became canon.

We also have several other plot points and writing ethics that don't match up to the ending. In fact they almost seem like two different stories.

Edited by James S Cassidy, 08 December 2017 - 05:13 PM.

[Tsuki Hoshino]

No we're not. Because you don't seem to find any fault in anything that was done.


Oh yea golly gosh, remember that time Kishimoto said "there was a plan to make Sakura move onto Naruto but then..." Kishimoto can say what he likes even when he flip flops all over the damn place. What matters is what he wrote and if what he wrote doesn't make sense, it doesn't make sense.

[Bryon_Konoha_Ninja]

We also have several other plot points and writing ethics that don't match up to the ending. In fact they almost seem like two different stories.

 

Sadly, James, that IS what we got; two different stories which contradict each other, and that in the end, we lost for it.

Edited by Bryon_Konoha_Ninja, 09 December 2017 - 01:12 AM.

[Tsuki Hoshino]

K: I'm writing a story about Ninja's and hard work! I want to write a story glamorously depicting violence and cool Ninja's while also doublespeaking about how revenge is wrong and there should be like forgiveness and world peace or whatever. -Several years later, gets to the end of his story- Lol Joking about that world peace kitten, because my franchise can't continue without Ninja's and therefore violence, so now everything i wrote before is warped and tossed into the trashcan...why do people hate me again?! 

Edited by Tsuki Hoshino, 09 December 2017 - 01:26 AM.

[DrK]

K: I'm writing a story about Ninja's and hard work! I want to write a story glamorously depicting violence and cool Ninja's while also doublespeaking about how revenge is wrong and there should be like forgiveness and world peace or whatever. -Several years later, gets to the end of his story- Lol Joking about that world peace kitten, because my franchise can't continue without Ninja's and therefore violence, so now everything i wrote before is warped and tossed into the trashcan...why do people hate me again?! 

At least he was able to portray the eternal brotherhood of Naruto and Sasuke. Unlike the sisterhood of Tsuki and Analyzer, which was tragically shot down before it could become a legend.

[Tsuki Hoshino]

I guess that makes me the Sasuke of that relationship, only Narutolyzer couldn't TnJ me.

[Derock]

At least he was able to portray the eternal brotherhood of Naruto and Sasuke. Unlike the sisterhood of Tsuki and Analyzer, which was tragically shot down before it could become a legend.

 

LOL! That wasn't meant to be. I had to stop it.

[Tsuki Hoshino]

Derock ruined my chances of Marrying someone I tried to drop into lava, stab and flat out said I didn't find lovable.

How could you do this to me Derock...

Ps: I would have made the BEST dead beat mom. My kid wouldn't see me for MORE then 13 years

Edited by Tsuki Hoshino, 09 December 2017 - 02:02 AM.