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The NEW NaruSaku Debate Thread


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#47121 Tsuki Hoshino

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Posted 22 November 2017 - 04:37 PM

I've never directly used the degree in writing as a true argument, it's basis when referenced solely as a point of understanding of the writing/editing career and process when it is relevant and directly being discussed. Although it's certainly not a bad thing to supply in an argumentative essay personal credentials.
 
I've presented plenty of facts and have spent quite some time showing how other "Facts" aren't facts at all, or have no basis or weight.
 
If I'm wrong, debate with me directly. Show me HOW I am wrong. I do welcome it. 
 

 
This is bewildering. You're basically condemning her altruistic act as...wrong? You're BLAMING her for getting Neji killed, when that was his choice? What is the alternative? No one jumping in, and thus Naruto dying? 
 
Do you understand the complaint you're making? It makes no logical sense.


Your complaint makes no logical sense.

NARUTO has plot armor. End of.

Hinata does not value her life, repeatedly tries to commit suicide infront of someone and as a result people die. Is it altruistic when she says herself she's just being selfish?

Writing degree my butt.

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#47122 DrK

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Posted 22 November 2017 - 04:39 PM

Your complaint makes no logical sense.

NARUTO has plot armor. End of.

Hinata does not value her life, repeatedly tries to commit suicide infront of someone and as a result people die. Is it altruistic when she says herself she's just being selfish?

Writing degree my butt.

Don't get sucked in. It's just what she wants, considering she only replied to the easiest point to answer to out of 2-3 days of anti SSNH arguments.



#47123 Tsuki Hoshino

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Posted 22 November 2017 - 04:45 PM

It's hard man. So hard to ignore when someone is blatantly ignoring what's said in text.

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#47124 James S Cassidy

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Posted 22 November 2017 - 04:46 PM

Tbh, someone already mentioned this, but NS only works out if Sasuke stays the villain. (Or probably doesn't survive) With Sasuke back in the town, it's pretty obvious that NS won't work out. Sakura is always reminded of him, seeing him waddling around, and probably she feels some sort of responsibility? Because she told him that she loves him and it would be strange if she would have changed her heart. (I don't think it would be strange, for the given situation) 

But...well. I feel that this debate has no end bc's in the end, Kishimoto can totally flip tables and decide that Naruto actually always liked Kiba and we couldn't do anything about it just ranting no matter how little sense it made, it would stay canon. Actually, Hinata makes much sense if we consider Sasuke in all of the calculations and leave Karin out.

I remember when Karin was introduced to the show, I was so happy because I thought Sakura is finally free. :wave:

A true reality is that NH and SS type of relationships can only exist in fictional settings. In real life, it would never happen and it nowhere near as realistic as the pro-enders make it out to be. If these characters were real, Sakura would have moved on a long long time ago, NS would probably be canon. I supposed Naruto and Hinata could date, but seeing how shy Hinata is, Naruto wouldn't even notice her since she doesn't talk much to him. No matter how much you love someone, if you don't say anything you will never have a chance. Naruto would either never notice her or eventually get so bored that NH just ends with them not being compatible. Oviously SS wouldn't even happen in the first place.

Shikatema is probably the only realistic looking relationship in the whole bunch...which is ironic since Kishimoto said that he wasn't going to give Shikamaru a love affair. Funny how the one he didn't even force is the one that worked out in it's entirely and everyone agrees with.

Shikatema is the only relationship 100% of the fans agree with.
 

Don't get sucked in. It's just what she wants, considering she only replied to the easiest point to answer to out of 2-3 days of anti SSNH arguments.

She completely ignored the my whiskers inconsistently.
 

I've never directly used the degree in writing as a true argument, it's basis when referenced solely as a point of understanding of the writing/editing career and process when it is relevant and directly being discussed. Although it's certainly not a bad thing to supply in an argumentative essay personal credentials.

I want to quote Ben Shapiro on this one:
 

Ben Shapiro: "I Don't Need A 7-Year Degree In Sociology To Know BS When I Hear It"

I have taken writing courses in college and I have lived with my mother who has a doctorith in reading and writing who pounded her lessons into me everyday for the last 27 years. Does this qualify me to have a better opinion than you? (Rhethorical)

 


Edited by James S Cassidy, 22 November 2017 - 04:53 PM.

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#47125 Shashank95

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Posted 22 November 2017 - 04:49 PM

Ayo!


Side note: Has anyone read Brandon Sanderson's books here? If not, Y'all should read it :D


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#47126 DrK

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Posted 22 November 2017 - 04:51 PM

A true reality is that NH and SS type of relationships can only exist in fictional settings. In real life, it would never happen and it nowhere near as realistic as the pro-enders make it out to be. If these characters were real, Sakura would have moved on a long long time ago, NS would probably be canon. 

NH is okay from a real life standpoint. A lot of people just aren't really that romantic. Someone like Hinata really is the depiction of an ideal wife in a lot of cultures. There are a lot of dudes who would turn up their noses at spending the rest of their life with someone like Sakura when they could have someone like Hinata. Unless she had her personality which she uses around Sasuke, which is basically the same as Hinata. In that case though, it would be creepy because she's dumbing herself down to serve some idealized version of something. This is something that is not realistic.


Edited by DrK, 22 November 2017 - 04:51 PM.


#47127 Tsuki Hoshino

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Posted 22 November 2017 - 04:54 PM


I want to quote Ben Shapiro on this one:
 
Ben Shapiro: "I Don't Need A 7-Year Degree In Sociology To Know BS When I Hear It"


Likes for Ben :hehehe:

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#47128 Tsuki Hoshino

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Posted 22 November 2017 - 04:59 PM

"I loath the argument against sacrifices"-inserts things person never actually said-

:zaru:

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#47129 DrK

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Posted 22 November 2017 - 05:05 PM

I was reading a story on FFnet which was a redo of the Naruto and Sakura in the Last conversation, which I was curious about because I did my own parody of it, but whatever. It was the typical Sakura feels undeserving so she pushes him towards Hinata for that reason. Anyway, it got a bunch of hate reviews saying basically "You're just butthurt because Kishimoto planned Naruto and Hinata to be together!"

 

Why is the argument always from that standpoint? Why is it never "You're butthurt because Kishimoto planned Sasuke and Sakura to be together?" Is it because the idea of him planning that is too ridiculous even for them?



#47130 TheFirstEvil100

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Posted 22 November 2017 - 05:21 PM

I was reading a story on FFnet which was a redo of the Naruto and Sakura in the Last conversation, which I was curious about because I did my own parody of it, but whatever. It was the typical Sakura feels undeserving so she pushes him towards Hinata for that reason. Anyway, it got a bunch of hate reviews saying basically "You're just butthurt because Kishimoto planned Naruto and Hinata to be together!"
 
Why is the argument always from that standpoint? Why is it never "You're butthurt because Kishimoto planned Sasuke and Sakura to be together?" Is it because the idea of him planning that is too ridiculous even for them?


Damn sorry to hear man, but we all get it from the pro Enders cause that is how they are after all they all are starting to know that the ending is now BS it's slow mind you, but its getting there I mean the proff is that they are attacking fanfiction writers after all.

All I can say is pay them no attention as many do it as a guest only.

#47131 DrK

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Posted 22 November 2017 - 05:21 PM

Damn sorry to hear man, but we all get it from the pro Enders cause that is how they are after all they all are starting to know that the ending is now BS it's slow mind you, but its getting there I mean the proff is that they are attacking fanfiction writers after all.

All I can say is pay them no attention as many do it as a guest only.

Well, it wasn't even my story. I get those reviews also, but not as many as this guy got.



#47132 James S Cassidy

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Posted 22 November 2017 - 05:23 PM

NH is okay from a real life standpoint. A lot of people just aren't really that romantic. Someone like Hinata really is the depiction of an ideal wife in a lot of cultures. There are a lot of dudes who would turn up their noses at spending the rest of their life with someone like Sakura when they could have someone like Hinata. Unless she had her personality which she uses around Sasuke, which is basically the same as Hinata. In that case though, it would be creepy because she's dumbing herself down to serve some idealized version of something. This is something that is not realistic.

The unrealistic aspect is not the relationship isself, but how the relationship comes to pass.

Hinata is very shy. So shy that if not for moments of Naruto about to die, she wouldn't even be talking to him. She would never have the courage to talk to Naruto at all throughout her whole life no matter how much she loved Naruto. And like you said, alot of guys like the HInata type, so wouldn't HInata have alot of guys after her affection as well? How many guys would be wanting to confess their feelings for Hinata only to be ignored by Hinata herself? I guess this makes Hinata a bad woman.

Eventually, if Naruto continued to take no notice of Hinata, there is a good chance she would move on to one of the other guys confessing to her figuring Naruto just doesn't see her. Eventually she would get upset or mad at the fact that she is ignored. Mostly likely upset, but she wouldn't be so pathetic to hide behind trees or stalk him everywhere. She would be happy just to run into him.

Naruto, being so uninterested in Hinata in the first place, would completely ignore her because of that shyness and his inability to see her at all. He would also probably keep trying for Sakura, give up for a while, and then either just not care about relationships or start to get back into them if Sakura showed interest. What would you do if a crush you had finally noticed you? You would probably freak and think you have a chance. Naruto however wouldn;t even even go for Hinata off the bat. He would probably actually try some of the other girls first. Ino, Temari, Ten-Ten, and so on and so forth. Also, just because Naruto and Hinata might meet does not mean that Naruto and HInata would hook up. There is such a thing as "the wrong type" and honestly this is what NH is. They could date, but I don't see Naruto being happy with it because of the type of girls he is into. The shy nice girl that did everything for you eventually becomes just a high school fantasy rather than a relationship people actually want. I can imagine anyone here can growing up wanting people with these character type only to realise that it was nothing and what they really wanted was someone to give them the respect and attention they want Especially after horrible relationships.

Could NH work in real life? Yeah, but that doesn't garuentee it would happen or they would stay together if they did grow up. The problem is that of the characters supposedly remaining the same after years and years of growth and they wouldn't.

Hinata wouldn't always remain shy and obsessive. Naruto wouldn't always remain a brat, Sasuke wouldn't always remain an kitten and Sakura wouldn't always remian obsessive and highly anger prone. They might keep some character traits like Hinata's cuteness, Naruto's goofball attitude, Sasuke's introvertedness, and Sakura's anger streak, but it would be toned down and more refined with all of them still having the undertone of their original behavior.

Hinata would probably still be cute, but it would be more undertone than overtones with her being more forward with aspects...especially ones that are important. Kind of like being serious about life problems, but end up being cute to her pet. However, she might have a drawback of having to rely on someone else too much. Not to say she can't take care of herself, but that for going farther than needed...she needs someone else to boost her. She will only do the bare minimum and that's it.

Naruto would be a goofball undertones, cracking jokes, and having fun when it is time to have fun, but when time comes he would be more professional. Still would crack a joke or two. I see Naruto like myself.

Sasuke would still keep to himself mostly, but he would talk to people if they asked him or wanted to talk to him. He just wouldn't go out of his way to socialize. he wouldn't be an kitten either anymore. In fact, he may even become religious...or a drug addict. Sasuke can go either way, but since I want to think more positive than negative, he might become religious and reserved. Probably a Jehova's Witness or something along those lines.

Sakura would become a strong independant woman, but occasionally smile and have fun. I can see her being one of two ways. She would either be a woman who is very determined in her lifestyle and very stern, but loving with her kids aall the while being a tomboy or she would be so independant that she wouldn't even touch guys at all unless one really made an impression on her. Probably believing her kids need "a real man."

This is why Naruto and Sakura work so well because they both have similar personality traits, but also supply something the other one lacks. Naruto would crack jokes and make Sakura laugh every now and then....probably causing her to shake her head and can't help but smile at him and Naruto would need a woman like Sakura because Sakura can take action with or without him and that's what he needs. She can take care of herself so he can focus on his own things. If he gets with Hinata who is so reluctant to do anything for herself, then he has to worry about her all the time to make sure she is doing things right or has support. Hinata is not independant enough for Naruto's taste which is probably why he works so much. Hinata can't take care of herself completely.

The sex would definitly show in the relationship.
Naruto and Hinata would be the same sex over and over. Naruto's takes charge, Hinata takes it.
Sasuke and Sakura would be...nothing really. You'd be lucky if Sasuke has sex at all. He is extremely asexual.
Naruto and Sakura would be over the top, but fun. You can see Naruto and Sakura changing places, wanted to try different things, and so much more. Think of all the sex in Deadpool and you pretty much have that.

Naruto: "Gasp....you had a dishwasher."
 

 

Likes for Ben :hehehe:

Indeed.

 

 

I was reading a story on FFnet which was a redo of the Naruto and Sakura in the Last conversation, which I was curious about because I did my own parody of it, but whatever. It was the typical Sakura feels undeserving so she pushes him towards Hinata for that reason. Anyway, it got a bunch of hate reviews saying basically "You're just butthurt because Kishimoto planned Naruto and Hinata to be together!"

 

Why is the argument always from that standpoint? Why is it never "You're butthurt because Kishimoto planned Sasuke and Sakura to be together?" Is it because the idea of him planning that is too ridiculous even for them?

Yeah basically. We even saw this in the pro-ender camp when NH and SS were celebrating. When SS was getting shafted hard in gaiden and the SS were saying "Hey, why such disresepct for SS from Kishimoto?" all of the pro-ending NH fans were like "Shut up and who cares? Naruto and Hinata are so cute together."

It's funny that the anti-enders was showing how we came closer together with SK, SNS, and even some NH and SS anti-enders coming to NS fans saying "Man, I am so sorry Kishimoto just kitten on NS like that. You guys didn't deserve that." The ending brought us anti-enders togethers and made us love each other more all the while the pro-enders were arguing with each other because the SS wanted them to be happy and the NH fans didn't care for SS at all. It was all so sad and funny.
 


Edited by James S Cassidy, 22 November 2017 - 05:29 PM.

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#47133 Tsuki Hoshino

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Posted 22 November 2017 - 05:23 PM

@Analyzer If "sacrificing" makes a situation worse it's not a good thing. Do you know what they tell parents on airplanes? Your oxygen goes on first because if you don't take care of yourself, no one will be able to take care of your kid.

I'm complaining you have a nasty habit of inserting things people don't say, and ignoring what they DO say.

Edited by Tsuki Hoshino, 22 November 2017 - 05:24 PM.

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#47134 DrK

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Posted 22 November 2017 - 05:31 PM

The unrealistic aspect is not the relationship isself, but how the relationship comes to pass.

Hinata is very shy. So shy that if not for moments of Naruto about to die, she wouldn't even be talking to him. She would never have the courage to talk to Naruto at all throughout her whole life no matter how much she loved Naruto. And like you said, alot of guys like the HInata type, so wouldn't HInata have alot of guys after her affection as well? How many guys would be wanting to confess their feelings for Hinata only to be ignored by Hinata herself? I guess this makes Hinata a bad woman.

Eventually, if Naruto continued to take no notice of Hinata, there is a good chance she would move on to one of the other guys confessing to her figuring Naruto just doesn't see her. Eventually she would get upset or mad at the fact that she is ignored. Mostly likely upset, but she wouldn't be so pathetic to hide behind trees or stalk him everywhere. She would be happy just to run into him.

Well, it ultimately came to pass by other people getting involved and forcing Naruto to look at Hinata. I can see this happening in real life in a less extreme way. Other people, probably girls, tell Naruto that Hinata likes him. He would probably go hang out with Hinata some, realize he doesn't have any fun with her at all, and stop.

 

Sakura on the other hand would have been completely with NS after Pain arc. The only thing that might stop her is the existence of Hinata, but after Naruto goes out with Hinata and ultimately rejects her, I can't see what would stop her anymore. The existence of Sasuke would have seemed small to her compared to what the two of them had experienced. Esp if he's a mass murderer. The thing about SS is that women are people too. They have their own best interests at heart also, just like the guys after Hinata for a shy, subservient wife.


Edited by DrK, 22 November 2017 - 05:32 PM.


#47135 James S Cassidy

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Posted 22 November 2017 - 05:34 PM

@Analyzer If "sacrificing" makes a situation worse it's not a good thing. Do you know what they tell parents on airplanes? Your oxygen goes on first because if you don't take care of yourself, no one will be able to take care of your kid.

I'm complaining you have a nasty habit of inserting things people don't say, and ignoring what they DO say.

And it is not like the the child is going to die instantly from lack of oxygen. It just takes a few seconds to put yours on and then help your kid.

It's like the one fact people forgot about the Pein Arc, "Hinata sacrificed herself so Naruto wouldn't die" except Naruto was to be taken alive to pull the nine-tails out of him. He would have lived longer and they could have made a recovery team. You see, if it took them like 9 days to pull the one-tail out of Gaara, why did they think it would be instant with Naruto's nine-tails?

If Naruto got captured, I would think Sakura, Kakashi, and a few others would mount a rescue mission to go save him. So Hinata's sacrifice is not as sacrificial as you think because Pein had to take Naruto in alive...not dead.

 

Well, it ultimately came to pass by other people getting involved and forcing Naruto to look at Hinata. I can see this happening in real life in a less extreme way. Other people, probably girls, tell Naruto that Hinata likes him. He would probably go hang out with Hinata some, realize he doesn't have any fun with her at all, and stop.

 

Sakura on the other hand would have been completely with NS after Pain arc. The only thing that might stop her is the existence of Hinata, but after Naruto goes out with Hinata and ultimately rejects her, I can't see what would stop her anymore. The existence of Sasuke would have seemed small to her compared to what the two of them had experienced. Esp if he's a mass murderer. The thing about SS is that women are people too. They have their own best interests at heart also, just like the guys after Hinata for a shy, subservient wife.

I still don't think that would stop her seeing how Hinata never goes after Naruto and how Hinata might stop persuing after seeing Sakura and Naruto hug. They would easily assume they were a couple showing such affection.

Also, again, noone is asking Naruto how he feels. I would imagine Naruto looking at both and possibly saying "Do you not care what I think?" All Naruto has to say is "I don't see Hinata in that way" and boom the relationship is dead. Even if Naruto says "Yeah, she is pretty cool."

Imagine if Naruto was hanging around with Rock Lee and Kiba:
Naruto: "Sakura is so hot. I love a girl with a little fire."
Rock Lee: "What about Hinata?"
Naruto: "She is alright. Cute, but something is off. Hey Kiba, she might be a good match for you."
Kiba: "You think so? I don't know, man."
Naruto: "You should totally go for it, bro."


Edited by James S Cassidy, 22 November 2017 - 05:41 PM.

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#47136 Tsuki Hoshino

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Posted 22 November 2017 - 05:36 PM

Oh no but you ignore what the characters say, and you insert things kishimoto didn't say.

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#47137 DrK

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Posted 22 November 2017 - 05:39 PM

I think that the criticism of Hinata for jumping in front of Naruto has more of a basis in how terrible her reaction to it was. Warm hand? Your cousin's body is still warm, too. Why aren't you squeeing about that?

 

And yeah, the hug was supposed to be the end. He decided to continue pairing baiting.


Edited by DrK, 22 November 2017 - 05:43 PM.


#47138 James S Cassidy

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Posted 22 November 2017 - 05:42 PM

Oh no but you ignore what the characters say, and you insert things kishimoto didn't say.

Well, I am looking at it from a more realistic stand point. Not on a terrible writers stand point who gave in to fan pressure and forced something that doesn't make sense.

Kishimoto obviously doesn't base on realism so his opinion doesn't matter on this one.


Edited by James S Cassidy, 22 November 2017 - 05:43 PM.

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#47139 DrK

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Posted 22 November 2017 - 05:44 PM

Well, I am look at it from a more realistic stand point. Not on a terrible writers stand point who gave in to fan pressure and forced something that doesn't make sense.

But that's the most sympathetic standpoint and Analyzer's favorite! Imagine the plight of the poor terrible writer, who having after made millions, is presented with the choice of either making more millions, or potentially making slightly less millions by making a far superior choice narratively. He would be so torn!



#47140 Tsuki Hoshino

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Posted 22 November 2017 - 05:49 PM

I think that the criticism of Hinata for jumping in front of Naruto has more of a basis in how terrible her reaction to it was. Warm hand? Your cousin's body is still warm, too. Why aren't you squeeing about that?
 
And yeah, the hug was supposed to be the end. He decided to continue pairing baiting.

It's not just that but it's the SECOND time she has tried to die infront of/for Naruto. It's disturbing.

Edited by Tsuki Hoshino, 22 November 2017 - 05:50 PM.

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