54216 replies to this topic

[Tsuki Hoshino]

Umm for NS to happen, all you need to do is address the bench scene from chapter 3 or whatever, and burn chapter 699 and 700 from existence. You put too much weight on your belief in Hinata's non existent role in the plot. Erase Hinata from the story and nothing would change in terms of plot. 
 

 

I like how Analyzer is sitting around claiming WE were blinded by pairings but they also claim NH was the most developed.

Seems fishy.

[Shashank95]

It's tiresome to deal with pseudo-intellectuals who claim to be fact checkers yet do not present a shred of evidence for anything they claim. 

You're wrong because your comprehension skills are kitten. I'm right because I have a degree in writing and was taught by XYZ, so I know better than you.

The whole holier than thou attitude has been irking me for a while!

[TheFirstEvil100]

It's tiresome to deal with pseudo-intellectuals who claim to be fact checkers yet do not present a shred of evidence for anything they claim. 

You're wrong because your comprehension skills are kitten. I'm right because I have a degree in writing and was taught by XYZ, so I know better than you.

The whole holier than thou attitude has been irking me for a while!

I agree in no way was this planned out, again if this was then Hinata would have been on Naruto's Team right from the start.

[DrK]

Naruto is like the only series where the shy girl with a crush on the protagonist but no actual relevance ends up with him. It's completely crazy.

 

Why didn't Shikamaru end up with that scientist girl with glasses? I forget what her name was, but why did Temari win? She was like his Sakura. Either that or Ino was, but how can you let a girl like that win if Hinata deserved to win?

[Illnevergiveup3]

wait, Ichigo and Orihime ended up together? I never really read Bleach. Kind of turned away from it after chapter 1.

[DrK]

wait, Ichigo and Orihime ended up together? I never really read Bleach. Kind of turned away from it after chapter 1.

Yeah. Rukia ended up with Renji, which might have bothered me if the Naruto ending wasn't so much worse. Renji and Rukia having just a normal fight is nothing compared to the SasuSaku BS.

[AHK]

Yeah. Rukia ended up with Renji, which might have bothered me if the Naruto ending wasn't so much worse. Renji and Rukia having just a normal fight is nothing compared to the SasuSaku BS.

Meh. Renji was content with sentencing her to death, reveled in the fact that she was going to die, and then was taunting her about how Ichigo was to be slaughtered. Bleach's ending was almost as garbage as Naruto's.

[winter-serenade]

Hm... I disagree with the opinions on the Bleach ending, but i don't wanna get off topic.

[James S Cassidy]

Circular argument. You can't change the ending because of the confession being fake which is proven true by the ending.

THANK YOU. THANK YOU SO MUCH!!!

God, you don't know how long it has been since I have seen someone proclaim what I kept seeing. The series didn't make the ending, the ending made the series.What I mean is is that until the ending came along literally every scene can be seen as going both ways. Especially with SS where yeah Sakura thinks about Sasuke, but she always saw him in a negative light...and Sasuke never thinks about her at all. Many fans wants to claim that there was some tension between them, but it was too ambiguous to really say...at least not until chapter 693. Then the ending happens and now people are using the ending to explain everything else. Well, how easy is it to do that? "Well, since the ending is the way it is, then everything else makes sense." No, it doesn't work like that. Not in Naruto's case. The scenes made no sense in the context and since they keep retconing the story further down the line then that means that the intent that was before has changed.

If Kishimoto had an intent you can definitly tell that somewhere down the line it changed and now all of a sudden some scenes take on a whole new meaning, but you can't do that with every scene. You have Minato come in and see Sakura and say "Are you my son's girlfriend?" and then make a connection with Kushina. How does this scene fall into the grand scheme of things when it practically goes against the ending no matter how you slice it?

Okay, I am just rambling right now, but dang DrK...you have hit the nail on the head that I have felt for a very long time. It is all such circular logic.

"Sakura is so pathetic and useless"
Me: Well, why do you think that?
"Well, if she wasn't obsessive over Sasuke and actually did something then I would like her more."
Me: OKay, well, does that mean you support NaruSaku since her moving on and being in love with Naruto would prove that she moved on from Sasuke and do you think that Sakura should have more focus from Naruto than Sasuke then?
"No, Sakura HAS to be with Sasuke and Naruto HAS to be with Hinata and she just can't take away the importance that Sasuke is to Naruto either."
Me: I am not sure what you want. You want Sakura to change, but then you don't want her to change. If you think Sakura is bad for Sasuke and Sakura shouldn't be obsessed over him...why do you want SS to be canon in the first place? If you want Sakura to do more with the story, why do you also want the story to only be about Naruto and Sasuke? I don't understand. Kishimoto can give you exactly what you say you wanted and still not be happy with it. This leads me to believe that NS SHOULD have been the canon pairing all along. Sakura changes and becomes more important and less obsessive over Sasuke, Naruto actually gets what he wants, and you wouldn't be kittening about how bad Sakura is....oh, but let me guess "NH HAD TO BE CANON."

That's the circular logic even with the pairings and their true intent is clear: "Naruto HAD to be with Hinata no matter what" If Naruto HAD to be with Hinata regardless if the story supported it, the development supported it, and if it ruins the story dynamic and such...then why are you complaining about the other characters? The whole story was forced to focus only on NH and nothing else. Naruto the Last, the Boruto movie and manga, and so much more. Because so much focus was given to NH, everyone else suffered...They complain how everything else suffered, but  tosuggest they do something else and they freak saying "No, the integrity of NH cannot be faultered."

Change the ending and you change everything else in the story.

So Naruto had to be with Hinata which means they had to do something with NS and SK because they were a threat. How do we get rid of Sakura? Keep her with that Sasuke obsession and thus ruining her character. One down. Now to Naruto: They could have had Naruto move on, but the idea that Naruto still holds feelings for Sakura violates the sanctity of NH and can't have that. So you make Naruto being told his feelings have always been fake, but this doesn;t make sense. What was the point of the promise of a lifetime and several scenes that prove Naruto was in love with Sakura? So they handwave those away by saying "Just a rivalry." This throws away the bonds that Naruto had before which originally was the main focus of the Naruto series. Bonds. The whole series was about making bonds with people. It seems stupid now, but still this was the original premise that they are throwing away for the sake of NH. Now Naruto looks like a scumbag, so how can they try and fix that? Let's retcon in a scene from the anime where Naruto comes to Hinata's aid and they have this "moment" and explain that "little kids know more about romantic love than actual adults who were truly in love." Yeah, okay, but a problem still persists. That original scene had Naruto getting his ass kicked and Hinata being dragged away. LET'S CHANGE THAT. Now Naruto beats up the bullies and Hinata stays behind and talks to him. Perfect...can't tarnish the sanctity of NH...remember this, kids. Can't do anything negative about NH. Now we have a problem where all of a sudden none of that exists in the manga. Oh well, let's have it so it just so happens Naruto knew exactly who Hinata was and just obviously forgot because he is stupid. This goes with the "You confuse love for food for love of a person."

The problem was the more they tried to make NH look good....the more the other characters suffered with Naruto taking the biggest hit of all. Naruto is now seen as a lying scumbag who was apparently too stupid to understand anything and just lied his way through the entire story. His bonds with Sasuke, Sakura, Iruka, Jiraiya, and so many others get washed away and made to look like only Hinata was important in his life and we are being told "Yeah forget everything else...this is the true story." Sakura suffers because they had to get her out of the way and Sasuke suffers because now the whole story of Naruto going after him seems....stupid.

And all of this to make NH happen. The pro-enders don't realize that all the problems exist in the story in the first place all because they said that their pairing had to be canon. They don't even realize how destructive their pairing choice was and the more they try to emphasis that "NH was the intent" the less and less the story makes sense.

If you just made NS canon to begin with, most of these problems wouldn't even exist.

I can even show you one of the most obvious retcon that you see everyday. Boruto and Himawari have whiskers. They shouldn't have them because Hinata was NOT the jinchuriki, Naruto was. Originally, the only reason why Naruto got whiskers was because while he was growing inside Kushina, who was the host for Kurama, the tailed-beast chakra was molding with Naruto's. The more the chakra leaked into Naruto, the more it influenced his chakra, the whiskers appeared. It was almost like Kurama was giving birth himself. (Sort of like "Dragonborn" with the blood of dragons.) We know that the whiskers are NOT a genetic trait passed down because of two important characters: The Gold and Silver brothers....two ninja who were eaten and lived inside Kurama eating his stomach lining and actually gained massive amounts of chakra from eating it. This is what caused them to get whiskers. It was given to them by Kurama's chakra influence. NOT because they are genetically related.  Even Sasuke could get the whiskers if he absorbed enough Kurama chakra.

So how the hell did Boruto and Himawari get whiskers? They weren't in close proximity to Kurama, they didn't ingest meat from Kurama, and they sure as hell weren't given birth by a jinchuriki. So how the hell did they get whiskers? Because they had to have a way to prove that Bolt and Himwari were Naruto's and Hinata's kids. "Give them whiskers" they said.

It is also funny that in the Boruto series the Byakugan, an eye technique that IS passed down by genetic trait and all the Hyuga children were born with them (at least that is what the original story told), isn't passed down genetically, but something that isn't supposed to pass down genetically does get passed down genetically.

We know that this is a retcon because Kishimoto proved it himself in an interview when asked about this:
Interviewer: "How come Boruto and Himawari don't have the Byakugan if they are Hyuga?"
Kishimoto: "I forgot."

You forgot? How could you forget this? It is one of the most fundemental things in basic intelligence. People say NH was always the intent, but if that is true how did Kishimoto forget to give his kids the byakugan? That should have been a no-brainer. So later down the road they explain that "Well, the Byakugan is an ability you have to unlock. Not all Hyuga kids get a byakugan." So now you are giving the Byakugan another Sharingan trait. Great. Nothing is orignal anymore.

This is proven even more by the fact that apparently "Salad is Sakura's kid because Sakura's abilities were passed down to Salad like the super punch and the shannaro!" Okay, so two abilities that anyone can learn and were NEVER genetically passed down all of a sudden prove that Salad is genetically related to Sakura. This is what was actually told to me by pro-enders. Are you serious?

So I guess now Sakura is related to Tsunade and the gold and silver brothers are related to Naruto all because of traits that can't be passed down genetically all of a sudden are now passed down genetically all because we had to prove that NH and SS had kids.

I said it before and I will say it again:
Cutting off your leg so you don't shoot yourself in the foot.

Sorry, I rambled a little. Hope I am making sense.

P.S. I want to add that some people will be like "If Kishimoto wrote SS and NH better...." Well, he didn't and you have to accept this. NH and SS is bad and nothing in Kishimoto's capabilities could have made it better. You said so yourself "He is bad at writing romance." That means that the NH and SS is a kitten romance because Kishimoto is bad at it. It's always funny how they want to use the "bad at writing romance" to explain why there is lack of development, but then say that NH and SS happened because Kishimoto knew what he was doing. No, that does not excuse the blatent lack of development and the obvious retconning by outside forces. You're just proving even more NH and SS was not intented because "Kishimoto is bad at writing romance and didn't care to write it"  which means that NH and SS are a product of someone else's mind and not of Kishimoto's. Kishimoto just wrote chapter 699 and 700, left a blank, and made everyone else fill it in. This explains why Naruto the Last's creation in the first place.

All add my own "If Kishimoto just wrote NS in the first place then none of this would be happening."
 

 

Yeah. Rukia ended up with Renji, which might have bothered me if the Naruto ending wasn't so much worse. Renji and Rukia having just a normal fight is nothing compared to the SasuSaku BS.

I am okay with it because we never see Ichigo and how he felt. Yeah, he had a connection with Rukia and Orihime, but it is not like Ichgio was in love with Rukia and then moved onto Orihime.

I basically saw it like this: Both Rukia and Orihime loved Ichigo, but Ichigo was ambiguous. They even hint at this in the beginning of Bleach itself when Orihime cracks wise about "what if all the girls fancied Ichigo and then they would all have something to talk about." So basically, Kubo was poking fun at harems. Yeah, Ichigo cared about Rukia alot, but it was way too ambigous if he loved her that way. He always expressed how he felt indebted to Rukia.

Somewhere down the road, when looking at Renji's history, he seems to always like Rukia. So now we have something similar to Naruto with Renji liking Rukia, Rukia liking Ichigo and Orihime liking Ichigo. What it came down to was "Who did Ichigo see romantically?" and eventually it was Orihime. Was it rushed? Oh hell yeah, but was it wrong or pull a Naruto? I don't think so. I just think if it had a little bit more explanation and possibly show Rukia having moved on from Ichigo because she knew he would never love her and she was okay with that...then it would have been okay. IchiRuki fans would be sad, but they would understand and accept it. "I am sad my pairing didn't happen, but the ending was still good....I am glad that Bleach ended the way it did."

And like you said, Orihime was actually useful and not just in the background. She was an integral part of the story and was there pratically every step of the way.

A far cry from Naruto's ending that has most of it's fanbase either confused, mad, or downright given up on the series because of the blatent lack of consistency and pairing bait.

Edited by James S Cassidy, 22 November 2017 - 05:21 AM.

[DrK]

These pro-enders use the ending to justify or define the characters and use that as a basis for a defense. I am never going to accept that the characters were always this trashy.

 

And Ichigo not loving Rukia is a big part of why it's not a big deal. If you wanted SS, then Naruto should not have loved Sakura. It should not have been hinted at even once. This is your main character.

 

But he didn't really want SS, he wanted NS. He just stopped caring and everyone around him was in favor of NH.

Edited by DrK, 21 November 2017 - 07:12 PM.

[Gravenimage]

THANK YOU. THANK YOU SO MUCH!!!

God, you don't know how long it has been since I have seen someone proclaim what I kept seeing. The series didn't make the ending, the ending made the series.What I mean is is that until the ending came along literally every scene can be scene as going both ways. Especially with SS where yeah Sakura thinks about Sasuke, but she always saw him in a negative light...and Sasuke never thinks about her at all. Many fans wants to claim that there was some tension between them, but it was too ambiguous to really say...at least not until chapter 693. Then the ending happens and now people are using the ending to explain everything else. Well, how easy is it to do that? "Well, since the ending is the way it is, then everything else makes sense." No, it doesn't work like that. Not in Naruto's case. The scenes made no sense in the context and since they keep retconing the story further down the line then that means that the intent that was before has changed.

If Kishimoto had an intent, you can definitly tell that somewhere down the line it changed and now all of a sudden some scenes take on a whole new meaning, but you can't do that with every scene. You have Minato come in and see Sakura and say "Are you my son's girlfriend?" and then make a connection with Kushina. How does this scene fall into the grand scheme of things when it practically goes against the ending no matter how you slice it?

Okay, I am just rambling right now, but dang DrK...you have hit the nail on the head that I have felt for a very long time. It is all such circular logic.

"Sakura is so pathetic and useless"
Me: Well, why do you think that?
"Well, if she wasn't obsessive over Sasuke and actually did something then I would like her more."
Me: OKay, well, does that mean you support NaruSaku since her moving on and being in love with Naruto would prove that she moved on from Sasuke and do you think that Sakura should have more focus from Naruto than Sasuke then?
"No, Sakura HAS to be with Sasuke and Naruto HAS to be with Hinata and she just can't take away the importance that Sasuke is to Naruto either."
Me: I am not sure what you want. You want Sakura to change, but then you don't want her to change. If you think Sakura is bad for Sasuke and Sakura shouldn't be obsessed over him...why do you want SS to be canon in the first place? If you want Sakura to do more with the story, why do you also want the story to only be about Naruto and Sasuke? I don't understand can give you exactly what you say you wanted and still not be happy with it. This leads me to believe that NS SHOULD have been the canon pairing all along. Sakura changes and becomes more important and less obsessive over Sasuke, Naruto actually gets what he wants, and you wouldn't be kittening about how bad Sakura is....oh, but let me guess "NH HAD TO BE CANON.

That's the circular logic even with the pairings and the true intent is clear: "Naruto HAD to be with Hinata no matter what" If Naruto HAD to be with Hinata regardless if the story supported it, the development supported it, and if it ruins the story dynamic and such...then why are you complaining about the other characters. The whole story was forced to focus only on NH and nothing else. Naruto the Last, the Boruto movie and manga, and so much more. Because so much focus was given to NH, everyone else suffered...and then they complain anything else suffered, but suggest they do something else and they freak saying "No, the integrity of NH cannot be faultered."

Change the ending and you change everything else in the story.

So Naruto had to be with Hinata which means they had to do something with NS and SK because they were a threat. How do we get rid of Sakura? Keep her with that Sasuke obsession and thus ruining her character. One down. Now to Naruto: They could have had Naruto move on, but the idea that Naruto still holds feelings for Sakura violates the sanctity of NH and can't have that. So you make Naruto being told his feelings have always been fake, but this doesn;t make sense. What was the point of the promise of a lifetime and several scenes that prove Naruto was in love with Sakura? So they handwave those away by saying "Just a rivalry." This throws away the bonds that Naruto had before which originally was the main focus of the Naruto series. Bonds. The whole series was about making bonds with people. It seems stupid now, but still this was the original premise that they are throwing away for the sake of NH. Now Naruto looks like a scumbag how can they try and fix that? Let's retcon in a scene from the anime where Naruto comes to Hinata's aid and they have this "moment" and explain that "little kids know more about romantic love than actual adults who were truly in love." Yeah, okay, but a problem still persists. That original scene had Naruto getting his ass kicked and Hinata being dragged away. LET'S CHANGE THAT. Now Hinata beats up the bullies and Hinata stays behind and talks to him. Perfect...can't tarnish the sanctity of NH...remember this, kids. Can't do anything negative about NH. Now we have a problem where all of a sudden none of that exists in the manga. Oh well, let's have it so it just so happens Naruto knew exactly who Hinata was and just obvious forgot because he is stupid. This goes with the "You confuse love for food for love of a person."

The problem was the more they tried to make NH look good....the more the other characters suffered with Naruto taking the biggest hit of all. Naruto is now seen as a lying scumbag who was apparently too stupid to understand anything and just lied his way through the entire story. His bonds with Sasuke, Sakura, Iruka, Jiraiya, and so many others get washed away and made to look like only Hinata was important in his life and we are being told "Yeah forget everything else...this is the true story." Sakura suffers because they had to get her out of the way and Sasuke suffers because now the whole story of Naruto going after him seems....stupid.

And all of this to make NH happen. The pro-enders don't realize that all the problems exist in the story in the first place all because they said that their pairing had to be canon. They don't even realize how destructive their pairing choice was and the more they try to emphasis that "NH was the intent" and the less and less the story makes sense.

If you just made NS canon to begin with, most of these problems wouldn't even exist.

I can even show you one of the most obvious retcon that you see everyday. Boruto and Himawari have whiskers. Thye shouldn't have them because Hinata was NOT the jinchuriki, Naruto was. Originally, the only reason why Naruto got whiskers was because while he was growing inside Kushina, who was the host for Kurama, the tailed-beast chakra was molding with Naruto's. The more the chakra leaked into Naruto, the more it influenced his chakra, the whiskers appeared. It was almost like Kurama was giving birth himself. (Sort of like "Dragonborn" with the blood of dragons.) We know that the whiskers are NOT a genetic trait passed down because of two important characters: The Gold and Silver brothers....two ninja who were eaten and lived inside Kurama eating his stomach lining and actuyally gained massive amounts of chakra from eating it. This is what caused them to get whiskers. It was given to them by Kurama's chakra influence. NOT because they are genetically related.  Even Sasuke could get the whiskers if he absrobed enough Kurama chakra.

So how the hell did Boruto and Himawari get whiskers? They weren't in close proximity to Kurama, they didn't ingest meat from Kurama, and they sure as hell weren't given birth by a jinchuriki. So how the hell did they get whiskers? Because they had to have a way to prove that Bolt and Himwari were Naruto's and Hinata's kids. "Give them whiskers" they said.

It is also funny that in the Boruto series the Byakugan, an eye technique that IS passed down by genetic trait and all the Hyuga children were born with them (at least that is what the original story told), isn't passed down genetically, but something that isn't supposed to pass down genetically does get passed down genetically.

We know that this is a retcon because Kishimoto proved it himself in an interview when asked about this:
Interviewer: "How come Boruto and Himwari don't have the whiskers if they are Hyuga?"
Kishimoto: "I forgot."

You forgot? How could you forget this? It is one of the most fundemental things in basic intelligence. People say NH was always the intent, but if that is true how did Kishimoto forget to give his kids the byakugan? That should have been a no-brainer. So later down the road they explain that "Well, the Byakugan is an ability you have to unlock. Not all Hyuga kids get a byakugan." So now you are giving the Byakugan another Sharingan trait. Great. Nothing is orignal anymore.

This is proven even more by the fact that apparently "Salad is Sakura's kid because Sakura's abilities were passed down to Salad like the super punch and the shannaro!" Okay, so two abilities that anyone can learn and were NEVER genetically passed down all of a sudden prove that Salad is genetically related to Sakura. This is what was actually told to me by pro-enders. Are you serious?

So I guess now Sakura is related to Tsunade and the gold and silver brothers are related to Naruto all because of traits that can't be passed down genetically all of a sudden are now passed down genetically all because we had to prove that NH and SS had kids.

I said it before and I will say it again:
Cutting off your leg so you don't shoot yourself in the foot.

Sorry, I rambled a little. Hope I am making sense.

P.S. I want to add that some people will be like "If Kishimoto wrote SS and NH better...." Well, he didn't and you have to accept this. NH and SS is bad and nothing in Kishimoto's capabilities could have made it better. You said so yourself "He is bad at writing romance." That means that the NH and SS is a kitten romance because Kishimoto is bad at it. It's always funny how they want to use the "bad at writing romance" to explain why there is lack of development, but then say that NH and SS happened because Kishimoto knew what he was doing. No, that does not excuse the blatent lack of development and the obvious retconning by outside forces. You're just proving even more NH and SS was not intented because "Kishimoto is bad at writing romance and didn't care to write it"  which means that NH and SS are a product of someone else's mind and not of Kishimoto's. Kishimoto just wrote chapter 699 and 700, left a blank, and made everyone else fill it in. This explains why Naruto the Last's creation in the first place.

All add my own "If Kishimoto just wrote NS in the first place then none of this would be happening."
 

 

I am okay with it because we never see Ichigo and how he felt. Yeah, he had a connection with Rukia and Orihime, but it is not like Ichgio was in love with Rukia and then moved onto Orihime.

I basically saw it like this: Both Rukia and Orihime loved Ichigo, but Ichigo was ambiguous. They even hint at this in the beginning of Bleach itself when Orihime cracks wise about "what if all the girls fancied Ichigo and then they would all have something to talk about." So basically, Kubo was poking fun at harems. Yeah, Ichigo cared about Rukia alot, but it was way too ambigous if he loved her that way. He always expressed how he felt indebted to Rukia.

Somewhere down the road, when looking at Renji's history, he seems to always like Rukia. So now we have something similar to Naruto with Renji liking Rukia, Rukia liking Ichigo and Orihime liking Ichigo. What it came down to was "Who did Ichigo see romantically?" and eventually it was Orihime. Was it rushed? Oh hell yeah, but was it wrong or pull a Naruto? I don't think so. I just think if it had a little bit more explanation and possibly show Rukia having moved on from Ichigo because she knew he would never love her and she was okay with that...then it would have been okay. IchiRuki fans would be sad, but they would understand and accept it. "I am sad my pairing didn't happen, but the ending was still good....I am glad that Bleach ended the way it did."

And like you said, Orihime was actually useful and not just in the background. She was an integral part of the story and was there pratically every step of the way.

A far cry from Naruto's ending that has most of it's fanbase either confused, mad, or downright given up on the series because of the blatent lack of consistency and pairing bait.

 

[James S Cassidy]

These pro-enders use the ending to justify or define the characters and use that as a basis for a defense. I am never going to accept that the characters were always this trashy.

 

And Ichigo not loving Rukia is a big part of why it's not a big deal. If you wanted SS, then Naruto should not have loved Sakura. It should not have been hinted at even once. This is your main character.

 

But he didn't really want SS, he wanted NS. He just stopped caring and everyone around him was in favor of NH.

Them: "The only reason why you hate the ending is because of the pairings."
Us: "The only reason why you love the ending was because of the pairings."

Edited by James S Cassidy, 21 November 2017 - 07:25 PM.

[Gravenimage]

Them: "The only reaosn why you hate the ending is because of the pairings."
Us: "The only reason why you love the ending was because of the pairings."

 

True story.

[DrK]

Why would he forget the Byakugan if he intended Hinata all along? What's the first thing someone notices about Hinata? Or the second thing, if you're a particularly kitten fan?

 

He didn't plan this crap.

 

Reading your post again James it's so funny to me. The story as he wrote it was actually not even COMPATIBLE with ending with NH. It dismantles almost everything about Naruto the character and Naruto the series. Even Hinata herself ends up looking like crap. It was such a big mistake to keep teasing her being with Naruto and working these cancerous fans into a frenzy. He set himself up to destroy his own creation.

Edited by DrK, 21 November 2017 - 07:29 PM.

[Tsuki Hoshino]

Honestly, I think Kishimoto stopped planning long before the story ended. You can tell ( because he's lazy and sloppy ) Kakashi knows Minato and Kushina are having a kid, he knows Naruto is the right age, he knows he looks like them.  he doesn't do kitten for him. Why? never explained. 
 

Tobi is Obito, NO Tobi is Madara...NO TOBI REALLY IS OBITO WAAAAH!?  Akatsuki are the bad guys, Nagato is the mastermind. No its Tobi, no its Madara, no its def Obito, no its Kaguya! 

So many inconsistencies, so many lazy cop outs, so many strands sticking out of a big jumbled ball of yarn. 

Edited by Tsuki Hoshino, 21 November 2017 - 07:36 PM.

[James S Cassidy]

Why would he forget the Byakugan if he intended Hinata all along? What's the first thing someone notices about Hinata? Or the second thing, if you're a particularly kitten fan?

 

He didn't plan this crap.

 

Reading your post again James it's so funny to me. The story as he wrote it was actually not even COMPATIBLE with ending with NH. It dismantles almost everything about Naruto the character and Naruto the series. Even Hinata herself ends up looking like crap. It was such a big mistake to keep teasing her being with Naruto and working these cancerous fans into a frenzy. He set himself up to destroy his own creation.

Exactly. When coupling with all that we know, all the retcons, the inconsistencies....how was the ending we got planned and was his entire intention all along? Especially when he shows that he really had no idea what he was doing when he even forgets the most simple of concepts.

We get mad when DC writers and Marvel writers make this mistake...so why does Kishimoto get a pass all of a sudden?

The idea of being a good creator of something is to stay away from retcons and only use them as a last resort. To heavily rely on retcons and asspulls to "Tell your story" is not a good way to write your story. Heck, Marvel even has a contest for writers who can cleverly explain a retcon away. If a writer can do that and Marvel likes it, they throw a party for the writer hosted by Stan Lee himself.

Essentially, retcons are a bad thing. Especially when you are using them to try and "support" the reason why you did something.

Edited by James S Cassidy, 21 November 2017 - 07:42 PM.

[DrK]

Most of the people who get derided for hating the ending because of pairings are actually totally justified in hating it for that reason. Because if NS doesn't happen, the whole story of Naruto doesn't work. Well, at least if other pairings happen, it doesn't. I don't know how well an open ending would have worked. It would have been infinitely better than what we got, though.

 

Meh. Renji was content with sentencing her to death, reveled in the fact that she was going to die, and then was taunting her about how Ichigo was to be slaughtered. Bleach's ending was almost as garbage as Naruto's.

I feel like they could have worked it out, probably. I mean, it's really bad, don't get me wrong. Renji shouldn't have been characterized like that if it was going to be the end pairing.

 

But that's nothing compared to what Sasuke did to Sakura. Sakura's brain would literally not have let her be even close to him after everything that happened. She would cringe whenever he tried to touch her or even get close to her. Even a happy united team 7 is a fantasy. A marriage is an absurdity.

 

The crack ships with Sakura x Akatsuki members make way more sense. Because Sakura was actually an equal combatant with Sasori. They were fighting and doing damage to each other. With Sasuke, Sakura was just helpless and hoping she didn't die. The idea of marrying someone who put you through that kind of torment is entirely farcical.

Edited by DrK, 21 November 2017 - 07:59 PM.

[Derock]

THANK YOU. THANK YOU SO MUCH!!!

God, you don't know how long it has been since I have seen someone proclaim what I kept seeing. The series didn't make the ending, the ending made the series.What I mean is is that until the ending came along literally every scene can be seen as going both ways. Especially with SS where yeah Sakura thinks about Sasuke, but she always saw him in a negative light...and Sasuke never thinks about her at all. Many fans wants to claim that there was some tension between them, but it was too ambiguous to really say...at least not until chapter 693. Then the ending happens and now people are using the ending to explain everything else. Well, how easy is it to do that? "Well, since the ending is the way it is, then everything else makes sense." No, it doesn't work like that. Not in Naruto's case. The scenes made no sense in the context and since they keep retconing the story further down the line then that means that the intent that was before has changed.

If Kishimoto had an intent, you can definitly tell that somewhere down the line it changed and now all of a sudden some scenes take on a whole new meaning, but you can't do that with every scene. You have Minato come in and see Sakura and say "Are you my son's girlfriend?" and then make a connection with Kushina. How does this scene fall into the grand scheme of things when it practically goes against the ending no matter how you slice it?

Okay, I am just rambling right now, but dang DrK...you have hit the nail on the head that I have felt for a very long time. It is all such circular logic.

"Sakura is so pathetic and useless"
Me: Well, why do you think that?
"Well, if she wasn't obsessive over Sasuke and actually did something then I would like her more."
Me: OKay, well, does that mean you support NaruSaku since her moving on and being in love with Naruto would prove that she moved on from Sasuke and do you think that Sakura should have more focus from Naruto than Sasuke then?
"No, Sakura HAS to be with Sasuke and Naruto HAS to be with Hinata and she just can't take away the importance that Sasuke is to Naruto either."
Me: I am not sure what you want. You want Sakura to change, but then you don't want her to change. If you think Sakura is bad for Sasuke and Sakura shouldn't be obsessed over him...why do you want SS to be canon in the first place? If you want Sakura to do more with the story, why do you also want the story to only be about Naruto and Sasuke? I don't understand can give you exactly what you say you wanted and still not be happy with it. This leads me to believe that NS SHOULD have been the canon pairing all along. Sakura changes and becomes more important and less obsessive over Sasuke, Naruto actually gets what he wants, and you wouldn't be kittening about how bad Sakura is....oh, but let me guess "NH HAD TO BE CANON.

That's the circular logic even with the pairings and the true intent is clear: "Naruto HAD to be with Hinata no matter what" If Naruto HAD to be with Hinata regardless if the story supported it, the development supported it, and if it ruins the story dynamic and such...then why are you complaining about the other characters. The whole story was forced to focus only on NH and nothing else. Naruto the Last, the Boruto movie and manga, and so much more. Because so much focus was given to NH, everyone else suffered...and then they complain anything else suffered, but suggest they do something else and they freak saying "No, the integrity of NH cannot be faultered."

Change the ending and you change everything else in the story.

So Naruto had to be with Hinata which means they had to do something with NS and SK because they were a threat. How do we get rid of Sakura? Keep her with that Sasuke obsession and thus ruining her character. One down. Now to Naruto: They could have had Naruto move on, but the idea that Naruto still holds feelings for Sakura violates the sanctity of NH and can't have that. So you make Naruto being told his feelings have always been fake, but this doesn;t make sense. What was the point of the promise of a lifetime and several scenes that prove Naruto was in love with Sakura? So they handwave those away by saying "Just a rivalry." This throws away the bonds that Naruto had before which originally was the main focus of the Naruto series. Bonds. The whole series was about making bonds with people. It seems stupid now, but still this was the original premise that they are throwing away for the sake of NH. Now Naruto looks like a scumbag how can they try and fix that? Let's retcon in a scene from the anime where Naruto comes to Hinata's aid and they have this "moment" and explain that "little kids know more about romantic love than actual adults who were truly in love." Yeah, okay, but a problem still persists. That original scene had Naruto getting his ass kicked and Hinata being dragged away. LET'S CHANGE THAT. Now Naruto beats up the bullies and Hinata stays behind and talks to him. Perfect...can't tarnish the sanctity of NH...remember this, kids. Can't do anything negative about NH. Now we have a problem where all of a sudden none of that exists in the manga. Oh well, let's have it so it just so happens Naruto knew exactly who Hinata was and just obviously forgot because he is stupid. This goes with the "You confuse love for food for love of a person."

The problem was the more they tried to make NH look good....the more the other characters suffered with Naruto taking the biggest hit of all. Naruto is now seen as a lying scumbag who was apparently too stupid to understand anything and just lied his way through the entire story. His bonds with Sasuke, Sakura, Iruka, Jiraiya, and so many others get washed away and made to look like only Hinata was important in his life and we are being told "Yeah forget everything else...this is the true story." Sakura suffers because they had to get her out of the way and Sasuke suffers because now the whole story of Naruto going after him seems....stupid.

And all of this to make NH happen. The pro-enders don't realize that all the problems exist in the story in the first place all because they said that their pairing had to be canon. They don't even realize how destructive their pairing choice was and the more they try to emphasis that "NH was the intent" the less and less the story makes sense.

If you just made NS canon to begin with, most of these problems wouldn't even exist.

I can even show you one of the most obvious retcon that you see everyday. Boruto and Himawari have whiskers. Thye shouldn't have them because Hinata was NOT the jinchuriki, Naruto was. Originally, the only reason why Naruto got whiskers was because while he was growing inside Kushina, who was the host for Kurama, the tailed-beast chakra was molding with Naruto's. The more the chakra leaked into Naruto, the more it influenced his chakra, the whiskers appeared. It was almost like Kurama was giving birth himself. (Sort of like "Dragonborn" with the blood of dragons.) We know that the whiskers are NOT a genetic trait passed down because of two important characters: The Gold and Silver brothers....two ninja who were eaten and lived inside Kurama eating his stomach lining and actually gained massive amounts of chakra from eating it. This is what caused them to get whiskers. It was given to them by Kurama's chakra influence. NOT because they are genetically related.  Even Sasuke could get the whiskers if he absrobed enough Kurama chakra.

So how the hell did Boruto and Himawari get whiskers? They weren't in close proximity to Kurama, they didn't ingest meat from Kurama, and they sure as hell weren't given birth by a jinchuriki. So how the hell did they get whiskers? Because they had to have a way to prove that Bolt and Himwari were Naruto's and Hinata's kids. "Give them whiskers" they said.

It is also funny that in the Boruto series the Byakugan, an eye technique that IS passed down by genetic trait and all the Hyuga children were born with them (at least that is what the original story told), isn't passed down genetically, but something that isn't supposed to pass down genetically does get passed down genetically.

We know that this is a retcon because Kishimoto proved it himself in an interview when asked about this:
Interviewer: "How come Boruto and Himawari don't have the Byakugan if they are Hyuga?"
Kishimoto: "I forgot."

You forgot? How could you forget this? It is one of the most fundemental things in basic intelligence. People say NH was always the intent, but if that is true how did Kishimoto forget to give his kids the byakugan? That should have been a no-brainer. So later down the road they explain that "Well, the Byakugan is an ability you have to unlock. Not all Hyuga kids get a byakugan." So now you are giving the Byakugan another Sharingan trait. Great. Nothing is orignal anymore.

This is proven even more by the fact that apparently "Salad is Sakura's kid because Sakura's abilities were passed down to Salad like the super punch and the shannaro!" Okay, so two abilities that anyone can learn and were NEVER genetically passed down all of a sudden prove that Salad is genetically related to Sakura. This is what was actually told to me by pro-enders. Are you serious?

So I guess now Sakura is related to Tsunade and the gold and silver brothers are related to Naruto all because of traits that can't be passed down genetically all of a sudden are now passed down genetically all because we had to prove that NH and SS had kids.

I said it before and I will say it again:
Cutting off your leg so you don't shoot yourself in the foot.

Sorry, I rambled a little. Hope I am making sense.

P.S. I want to add that some people will be like "If Kishimoto wrote SS and NH better...." Well, he didn't and you have to accept this. NH and SS is bad and nothing in Kishimoto's capabilities could have made it better. You said so yourself "He is bad at writing romance." That means that the NH and SS is a kitten romance because Kishimoto is bad at it. It's always funny how they want to use the "bad at writing romance" to explain why there is lack of development, but then say that NH and SS happened because Kishimoto knew what he was doing. No, that does not excuse the blatent lack of development and the obvious retconning by outside forces. You're just proving even more NH and SS was not intented because "Kishimoto is bad at writing romance and didn't care to write it"  which means that NH and SS are a product of someone else's mind and not of Kishimoto's. Kishimoto just wrote chapter 699 and 700, left a blank, and made everyone else fill it in. This explains why Naruto the Last's creation in the first place.

All add my own "If Kishimoto just wrote NS in the first place then none of this would be happening."
 

 

I am okay with it because we never see Ichigo and how he felt. Yeah, he had a connection with Rukia and Orihime, but it is not like Ichgio was in love with Rukia and then moved onto Orihime.

I basically saw it like this: Both Rukia and Orihime loved Ichigo, but Ichigo was ambiguous. They even hint at this in the beginning of Bleach itself when Orihime cracks wise about "what if all the girls fancied Ichigo and then they would all have something to talk about." So basically, Kubo was poking fun at harems. Yeah, Ichigo cared about Rukia alot, but it was way too ambigous if he loved her that way. He always expressed how he felt indebted to Rukia.

Somewhere down the road, when looking at Renji's history, he seems to always like Rukia. So now we have something similar to Naruto with Renji liking Rukia, Rukia liking Ichigo and Orihime liking Ichigo. What it came down to was "Who did Ichigo see romantically?" and eventually it was Orihime. Was it rushed? Oh hell yeah, but was it wrong or pull a Naruto? I don't think so. I just think if it had a little bit more explanation and possibly show Rukia having moved on from Ichigo because she knew he would never love her and she was okay with that...then it would have been okay. IchiRuki fans would be sad, but they would understand and accept it. "I am sad my pairing didn't happen, but the ending was still good....I am glad that Bleach ended the way it did."

And like you said, Orihime was actually useful and not just in the background. She was an integral part of the story and was there pratically every step of the way.

A far cry from Naruto's ending that has most of it's fanbase either confused, mad, or downright given up on the series because of the blatent lack of consistency and pairing bait.

 

^ THIS. 1000%

 

As I said for Bleach,  I said this before, I'll said it again. That ending was much more acceptable than what Naruto had experienced. Many people dislike Orihime but the girl, like you said James, was involved into the plot. Plus she has a better development than Hinata (I think most people dislike her because they had the same English VA, Stephanie Sheh) and a bubbly/comic relief.

[DrK]

Orihime wasn't crippled by shyness and cowardice. She was earnest with her love for Ichigo. Even though I wouldn't have wanted her to win, I can't really say she ever annoyed me.

 

Hinata doesn't annoy me, either, but she is just not even there, at all. She is not someone who Naruto singled out as being important like with IH. They had one conversation in Part 1 which was never revisited again, because she was only relevant for that arc. And she wasn't even central to the arc. She was a setpiece, basically. Neji could have broken something else that was cute and valuable, like a tea set or something, and Naruto could have had the same desire to act in the best interests of justice.

 

She just wasn't someone that had any individual impact on Naruto.

Edited by DrK, 21 November 2017 - 08:15 PM.

[Tsuki Hoshino]

The only time i well and truly hated Hinata was the SECOND TIME she threw herself in front of Naruto in an attempt to die. 1st time, ok. 2nd time; you have major issues. Not only did she exercise a lack of care for her own well being it inevitably got Neji killed. 

I never disliked Rukia or Orihime. They were both important, they both had entire arcs devoted to them. One of them was just always set up to be an romantic interest, and the other was a mystery imo. Sakura is set up to be a romantic interest, Hinata is--as stated a set piece for the vast majority of the series.