54216 replies to this topic

[Tsuki Hoshino]

Hard to tell jokes on the internet m8

[James S Cassidy]

Hard to tell jokes on the internet m8

 

Indeed. Boy, did I learn my lesson.
 

[Tsuki Hoshino]

Haven't we all...Haven't we all...

[Bryon_Konoha_Ninja]

I gotta admit, I got a lot I want to bring up as what James and Winter said, but given a certain pest, I would be lashed at quickly. But let's face it, Kishimoto failed by NOT just doing what he could have done in so many areas, and it shows how he let salty "fans" who only cared about pairings to judge how he should do things, showing why he's obviously not gonna be working on a manga any time soon. And it also makes me think of what I wanna do in my fanfiction to make sure it doesn't end up the mess like Kishi had Naruto come out to be because of his lack of spine.

Edited by Bryon_Konoha_Ninja, 19 November 2017 - 12:48 AM.

[Tsuki Hoshino]

Kishi didn't try to fix kitten. If he had it would have been fixed, instead it was left to languish and deteriorate because he's an incompetent writer. He can create character after character, after character because thats his only solution to the plot he started but didn't have the chops to write well. 

People aren't salty over pairings, they're salty about the writing behind said pairings. Its bad writing resulting in bad characters which equals bad pairings, end of. 

[Bryon_Konoha_Ninja]

Kishi didn't try to fix kitten. If he had it would have been fixed, instead it was left to languish and deteriorate because he's an incompetent writer. He can create character after character, after character because thats his only solution to the plot he started but didn't have the chops to write well. 

People aren't salty over pairings, they're salty about the writing behind said pairings. Its bad writing resulting in bad characters which equals bad pairings, end of. 

 

People're also salty because of the fact there was way too many questions left unanswered and things not dealt with, not just the pairings. Pairings can be part of it, but it really is also about the story itself, and how it didn't become about the hero, when it shoulda.

[Illnevergiveup3]

saying that Kishimoto is a good writer is almost as laughable as saying that The DBZverse stands a chance against Superman. Both kitten statements. 

[Tsuki Hoshino]

 

People're also salty because of the fact there was way too many questions left unanswered and things not dealt with, not just the pairings. Pairings can be part of it, but it really is also about the story itself, and how it didn't become about the hero, when it shoulda.

It shouldn't have been called "Naruto" after part two but rather "Days Of Our Ninja's." 
 

 

saying that Kishimoto is a good writer is almost as laughable as saying that The DBZverse stands a chance against Superman. Both kitten statements. 

but lyke, omg Kishi's "The villain behind the Villain behind the Villain, BEHIND that villain." Was just lyke the best plot evaaaaah. 

[Nate River]

Ok, disclaimer. I find it almost impossible to not be histrionic when talking about this pairing. It is so baffling and infuriating (Sakura's obsession and insanity, Sasuke's motivations being completely unexplained and his total lack of interest.) But I actually stand by what I said.

As do I. There is no other reasonable reading of Gaiden's ending other than what I said. I would agree that I have no idea why they love each other other than because the story says they do. It's one of the pairing's weaknesses, but nothing about that clouds the intent of Gaiden or its ending. He is portraying them as a happy family at the end.
 

The thing is the context. What does a family dinner show? It's something that a normal, well adjusted family does. But in the context that Gaiden is presented as, all the dinner does for me is highlight how that's not what they are. Especially with the facial expressions. To brush this off as an art "failure" is not really fair in my view. He's illustrated several other scenes of characters eating together and none look as awkward as this one.

Yes, that's the goal: to show them as a happy family in a normal setting. I don't think it looks awkward. I think you are seeing what isn't there. And even if there were in the picture, the dialogue in the final chapters makes that very clear how the audience is supposed to view that scene as does the family photo which obvious pairs back to the issue that began the story. They didn't have a family photo. Now they do, to show that they are indeed together as a family. It's not me removing things from context.
 

AHK's reply brings up the issue of whether or not they are miserable at the start of Gaiden. You agree that they are. So why would they not be miserable at the end? Because Sarada was portrayed as happy in some panels? I find it more likely that she's just caught the Haruno family curse of getting high off of acknowledgement from Sasuke. And yes, Sakura is the mother. There are reasons to doubt it but I honestly don't see him ever making the fact that she isn't a plot point, so it's mostly a waste of time to think about. I digress.

 
Because the source of the unhappiness was resolved by the end of Gaiden. 
 
 

So  they were miserable at the start. Who was miserable and why? Sarada was miserable because of her mother acting crazy and because of her doubts about her father. She also doubted that her mother was really her mother and this was the main message of the Gaiden if anything. Sakura is the mother. Sakura was miserable because I guess her life is unsatisfying, Sarada is complaining, and she's stressed out? It's really hard to say because he made Sakura so crazy.

The main message of Gaiden was Bonds > Blood. Naruto outright says this in his speech to Sarada. In other words, whether Sakura is her bio mother or not doesn't matter, what matters is the strength of their bond. Sakura and Sasuke give a variation of this speech after Naruto does. I've accused the story of stepping on its own message because it took time out to confirm Sakura was the bio mother when it just got finished saying that it didn't matter, but the message is right there on the page.
 
I don't understand why there is so much either confusion or doubt about the Gaiden's message when Naruto explicitly says what it is. I feel like people are conflating weak execution with muddled intent. I'd agree if people said it was poorly written, but the weak writing does nothing to muddle the intent or how the author expects the audience to view the pairing: they are a happy family. 
 
 

Anyway, the idea is that I don't see how this would be corrected because Sasuke is leaving again. They would realistically descend into misery once again. That is what I take away from it and Kishimoto's failure to actually show them as happy in the art only reinforces this interpretation. At best the message is confused. I'm not seeing a clear "We are happy about the situation with Sasuke now" in the last chapter, mostly because there is no reason why they would now be happy with it.  I do understand how one could come to that conclusion but it doesn't work for me. Why would the fact that Sarada stopped complaining make Sakura happy all of a sudden? She is miserable without Sasuke. This has been established time and again. Sarada is happy with Sasuke now but he's ultimately not a factor in her life and he never will be. In my view the purpose was to be a story about Sarada. She meets her father and learns (depressing) things about her mother. The end. Their ultimate happiness or unhappiness was unresolved. I read miserable because Sasuke left and Sakura is crazy. Sarada is the only normal human being and fortunately she has things to do outside her home, so she'll be ok.
 
I did say something about Kishimoto's intent. I have no clue what the hell he is doing anymore, so that was overenthusiastic. It's entirely possible that he meant to say they are happy but just didn't reinforce this or illustrate it well at all.

Because she understands why and what he is doing and accepts that aspect of him, because she knows who her parents are and where she comes from. Moreover, if I recall correctly, resolves to spend more time at home. 

[DrK]

Because she understands why and what he is doing and accepts that aspect of him, because she knows who her parents are and where she comes from. Moreover, if I recall correctly, resolves to spend more time at home. 

Isn't this resolution similar to Bolt's reaction to the "Endure it"? Yet he still had major issues with his father after this?

 

I just don't see how the issues would have been ultimately corrected even if lipservice is paid to them. I understand WHY the lipservice was paid because without that you aren't resolving anything. But it's not a true resolution for me. She had other issues besides the maternity one that were brushed to the side. I get that the story continued with Ikemoto, and Sarada is fine. I just don't see how their family unit is going to to be much different now.

 

You're reading "Happy family", I read "Sarada got to meet her father and resolved the issue of her maternity"

 

The family photo and dinner isn't enough for me, even if the art were done differently. It doesn't help that he shows Sasuke leaving again. If he hadn't shown that and it's merely assumed that he would eventually leave again, it would be a good bit different. Plus we would avoid another instance of Sakura looking pitiful.

Edited by DrK, 19 November 2017 - 05:45 AM.

[Tsuki Hoshino]

Isn't this resolution similar to Bolt's reaction to the "Endure it"? Yet he still had major issues with his father after this?

 

I just don't see how the issues would have been ultimately corrected even if lipservice is paid to them. I understand WHY the lipservice was paid because without that you aren't resolving anything. But it's not a true resolution for me. She had other issues besides the maternity one that were brushed to the side. I get that the story continued with Ikemoto, and Sarada is fine. I just don't see how their family unit is going to to be much different now.

 

You're reading "Happy family", I read "Sarada got to meet her father and resolved the issue of her maternity"

 

The family photo and dinner isn't enough for me, even if the art were done differently. It doesn't help that he shows Sasuke leaving again. If he hadn't shown that and it's merely assumed that he would eventually leave again, it would be a good bit different. Plus we would avoid another instance of Sakura looking pitiful.

Is a family a family when they hardly spend anytime with one another? Is a family a family when they basically choose to live apart from one another on an almost permanent basis? In a lot of ways its almost irresponsible for Sasuke to have had a Child that he doesn't even take care of. 

[rikakim94]

Im starting to have different opinions on narusaku i don't think it could have been better if it happened. I think the ship became just as bad as other pairings. The confession totally killed the ship for me. Its pretty clear that kishi in that chapter was going to make sakura a afterthought trophy wife for naruto to earn in the end. THAT is something i do not want at all and im glad it never happened. And im glad that the naruto manga crashed and burned in the end.     

[DrK]

Im starting to have different opinions on narusaku i don't think it could have been better if it happened. I think the ship became just as bad as other pairings. The confession totally killed the ship for me. Its pretty clear that kishi in that chapter was going to make sakura a afterthought trophy wife for naruto to earn in the end. THAT is something i do not want at all and im glad it never happened. And im glad that the naruto manga crashed and burned in the end.     

I don't go that far, but it should never have happened. It wasn't good from any perspective.

Edited by DrK, 19 November 2017 - 06:19 AM.

[James S Cassidy]

Im starting to have different opinions on narusaku i don't think it could have been better if it happened. I think the ship became just as bad as other pairings. The confession totally killed the ship for me. Its pretty clear that kishi in that chapter was going to make sakura a afterthought trophy wife for naruto to earn in the end. THAT is something i do not want at all and im glad it never happened. And im glad that the naruto manga crashed and burned in the end.     

You're right and it is also pointless. Still...the fact that Kishimoto was told that Sakura seemed like a liar, useless, manipulative, and downright a horrible girl....and he did nothing, but reinforce that behavior instead of fixing the problems never sat well with me. Sakura's confession was bad, but it wasn't irredeemable. He could have easily made Sakura be genuine about it and just have Naruto be the brat like he always is, but he didn't follow through with that one.

I don't know. The dude just didn't seem to care about pairing at all. He let the other team take care of it. As long as he got the ambiguously gay Sasuke and Naruto fight, he didn't care about anything else.

[DrK]

You're right and it is also pointless. Still...the fact that Kishimoto was told that Sakura seemed like a liar, useless, manipulative, and downright a horrible girl....and he did nothing, but reinforce that behavior instead of fixing the problems never sat well with me. Sakura's confession was bad, but it wasn't irredeemable. He could have easily made Sakura be genuine about it and just have Naruto be the brat like he always is, but he didn't follow through with that one.

I don't know. The dude just didn't seem to care about pairing at all. He let the other team take care of it. As long as he got the ambiguously gay Sasuke and Naruto fight, he didn't care about anything else.

The confession is terrible considering SS, too. Because it means Sakura was actually all of those things. That's the worst part.

Edited by DrK, 19 November 2017 - 06:29 AM.

[Tsuki Hoshino]

But lYke remember kishimoto called Sakura an "honest girl" after the confession implying there was some truth to it....Or was that also a red herring?

Personally the confession was perhaps the most selfless thing Sakura ever did, considering what her intent was behind it. Alas, it got torpedoed.

[DrK]

Imagine if Sakura had instead said "I really like you." All that melodrama could have been avoided. But no, Naruto has to put her feelings for Sasuke on an untouchable pedestal that can't be reached, and she can't possibly like both of them. That would be impossible!

[Tsuki Hoshino]

^^^^ Sakura would be a floozy if she loved more then one man, remember?!

[DrK]

And if she has feelings for Sasuke, well then she has to make it her goal to be with Sasuke. It doesn't matter how Sasuke feels about her, or whether or not Sasuke is going to kill her or treat her as subhuman. Naruto needs to stay out of the way and let it happen.

 

Why did Naruto save her from getting killed by Sasuke? It was clearly a couples' spat. Naruto is just trying to get in the way because he's jealous.

 

That would explain why he was so timid about rebuking Sasuke afterwards. It wasn't any of his business, so he felt sheepish.

Edited by DrK, 19 November 2017 - 06:50 AM.

[James S Cassidy]

And if she has feelings for Sasuke, well then she has to make it her goal to be with Sasuke. It doesn't matter how Sasuke feels about her, or whether or not Sasuke is going to kill her or treat her as subhuman. Naruto needs to stay out of the way and let it happen.

Well, if you think about it, Naruto became the biggest SS shipper of them of all since he kept pushing Sakura to Sasuke in the end.

"I hate people who lie to themselves."

Might as well have the scene play out like this

Sakura: "I love you, Naruto."
Naruto: "No, you don't."
Sakura: "I don't?"
Naruto: "Yeah, you love Sasuke."
Sakura: "But....I love you. You mean a lot to me, I don't want you to be in pain anymore, and Sasuke doesn't seem to care about me at all. So why would I be with him when he doesn't want to be with me?"
Naruto: "Well, you're wrong. You love Sasuke and that is it. Don't argue with me because I said so."
Sakura: "I....ummm....alright?"

That is pratically what happened.

 

Edited by James S Cassidy, 19 November 2017 - 06:51 AM.