4869 replies to this topic

[ciardha]

Incorrect the insinuation was that she wasnt being honest with herself not that she was being dishonest with Naruto.

Yes, what Naruto said she was doing was that she had mentally convinced herself that she no longer had any feelings at all about Sasuke, while he could sense emotionally she still felt something. (What he hadn't noticed was how Sakura's romantic feelings for Sasuke had gone away and she had fallen in love with Naruto.) That's what it means when you lie to yourself- you know something is the correct way to believe and mentally convince yourself that you believe that way, but lingering different feelings are still there.

[Kenny-kun]

Well, since the pairing isn't canon, I'm not sure what else you would expect.

I was under the impression that the intention was to establish the pairing as canon. If that's not the case, my apologies for the misunderstanding.

Yes, that scene. Sakura and Naruto do rely on each other mutually, but they do not solely rely on each other. I wouldn't agree with someone who said only Sakura can offer Naruto support. That's not true, Naruto gains support from many people, like you said. However, I do have a problem with people who say Naruto gains no support from Sakura, specifically.

Then we agree.

Actually, the reason why hatred occurs is dealt with. We know why Sasuke feels the way he does, we also know that Naruto also reached a point where he could have become like Sasuke. This is reason for Naruto to want to fight the chain of hatred, because he has felt it before. That is not just going along with a guy he respects, but instead choosing a path based on his own experiences.

Yes, we know why Sasuke went down the path of hatred, but doesn't address the issue of the origin of human conflict or how to resolve it entirely. If Naruto thinks he has found the solution based on understanding Sasuke or him having felt it before, then I remain convinced that Kishi has in no way "dealt" with the deep issue of human conflict. He has acknowledged it plotwise (Naruto helping Sasuke come back to the "light side"), but nothing more than that.

So the ending will become a Harry Potter crossover?! omges1.png

Pretty much. If we're lucky, we may even get some Harry/Hermoine.

All Sakura knows is that he loves her. She also recognizes that he goes out of his way to hide his intentions due to worry. What does that say about his expectations for Sakura? It isn't hard to see why she might feel she wasn't good enough, especially when Naruto isn't honest with her. In turn Sakura also isn't honest with him.

We don't know if he expects Sakura to become the most powerful shinobi ever or if he expects her to keep her 'day job per se'; we know nothing about Naruto's expections. All we know is that he is content with her, hence is content with her overall performance, regardless of what it is.

Keep in mind that Sai is the only one who has given her any reason to doubt herself, based on him telling her that she has just been causing Naruto pain (although that wasn't his intention).

And how has Naruto not been honest with her?

You said her problem is her self-doubt, correct?

Yes, but you said she doubted herself based on Sasuke's comments when she loved him. I was simply showing how using Sasuke as an example harms your argument.

Not sure how that differs from what I am saying (worrying that she isn't worthy/good enough). Not being good enough has been her problem since she first met Ino, before Sasuke.

Lets look at these two pages for a second:

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/3/16/
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/3/17/


Looking at these pages, I have just two questions for you:

1) Why do you think she wanted Sasuke's acknowledgment?
2) Why do you think she loved Sasuke?

I didn't say there was...

My mistake.

1) At the same time, authors are determined to, as Kubo put, 'write what they want even if they don't get it' (or at least he twittered this sentiment) XD Some people like to claim the authors are powerless, others that they do whatever they want to. I would believe something in the middle. However, when it comes to the end, which Kishimoto has known how it will play out for awhile now, I think he will do what he wants.

2) While he could always change his mind, he basically said he planned to make at least one of the 3 big pairings happen. If you don't trust him, that's up to you, but most likely this goes along with his already planned ending anyways. The public can just get over it XD

1) That's just Kubo's excuse for writing while high most of the time.

But seriously, I don't think authors are powerless. At the same time though, I do not think that authors are in no way influenced by their fans. As you say, I think successful authors are somewhere in the middle (Kishimoto not being an exception). I think Kishimoto is going to end this manga in a certain way in terms of what is crucial to the plot, but I wouldn't be so sure about anything else.

2) Heheh. I trust him ( in spite of having reason not to, as he has contradicted himself many times when it has come to his input during press interviews and the events of the actual manga, such as this "Year of Sakura" which he promised we'd get or there being plans to have a big emphasis on romance as early as 2006), but I wouldn't put it past him to adhere to his words without a twist of some sort (the example of an abiguous ending which I've already provided would be one way of doing this).

To me it wasn't a realistic plan, so I guess I prefer his current part realistic but extremely confident mindset.

What's unrealistic about it? He knocks Sasuke out and has him detained if he is not willing to cooperate (though one more talk-no-jutsu should do the job ).

1) Because he is the only one who can take it all, and the only one who could remove it all.
2) If Sasuke truly cannot be saved, then they will both die. That is a big IF because if there is any glimmer of hesitation, Naruto can save him. Kishimoto didn't make Sakura have renewed hope for no reason XD If the statement truly was, when we fight we both die, no other way around it, then she wouldn't have felt that 'happy ending' to be a reachable thing once again.

1) I don't necessarily agree, but for the sake of discussion, I agree. Though to add to your input, taking all of his hatred means Naruto dying, since the two fighting with all they have is a result which Naruto has confirmed through fighting Sasuke with his "fist" rather than words.

2) Naruto has said that Sasuke will be saved regardless. If he dies, the two can understand one another in the afterlife . Basically, Naruto feels he can save Sasuke whether he chooses to fight him or not (if Sasuke doesn't choose to fight him, that means he has seen the error in his ways). The only outcome in which Sasuke isn't saved is if he kills Naruto first, hence why we see Sasuke saying "I'll kill you first" as well as "And I don't plan on dying. You're the one who will die."

Based on all of this, I'm not too sure why Sakura has renewed hope unless she thinks Sasuke is not going to fight Naruto with all he has and come to his senses. Or maybe I missed. something.

Edited by Kenny-kun, 21 March 2010 - 01:58 AM.

[Kenny-kun]

Incorrect again. One does not entail the other.

On the contrary. She was talking to Naruto. Since what she wasn't talking about consisted of lies, she was lying to him. The only way we could possible not consider it to be lying to Naruto would be if Naruto were in no way involved in the conversation.

Inncorrect again. she wanted to ease his burden yes, and was thinking of his feelings as well, but you dont get to make a circular argument out of it to try and disprove it.

Miscommunication. In easing his burden, she was thinking of his feelings. If you think otherwise or see my rendering of the chapter to be false, I invite you to put my ideas in their place (civily I hope).

Wrong again. He didnt find it odd because he felt it was dishonest. He felt she was hiding something and Sai revealed that what she was hiding was the rookies decision and nothing else.

He inferred she was being dishonest based on her comments being odd.

Don't believe me? Lets have the manga settle this dispute.

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/469/17/
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/470/01/

A:Naruto: I hate people who lie to themselves
B:Sakura: Are you saying I'm lying to myself? I'm the only one who knows what I'm thinking. If you don't like me, then just say so. If you're gonna make up excuses . . .
C:Naruto: It's just weird. You came all this way just to tell me something like that.

A: Naruto's assertion
B: Sakura asking for the premise to A.
C: Naruto's premise.

now your just being childish

Lighten up, silly. Usually, making smarmy comments like "and we have a perfect streak of wrong" stirs up flame wars. There is no need for that kind of a demeanor (incidentally, it's this kind of demeanor which triggers shipper debates between different shippers to be so nasty in the first place). I came here for a civil discussion. Basically, I have no intention of taking these provocative comments seriously, hence what you refer to as me being childish.

But that still does not render the argument invalid or incorrect. again almsot every action taken towards each other has always been a selfless one or with selfess intentions.

That's a bit different than simply saying every action taken towards each other has always been selfless, don't you think? Almost allows for less certainty. I believe there have been actions taken towards each other which are selfless,but I wouldn't agree that most of them have (well actually, I don't agree that any action is selfless, but that's more a philosophical debate, so I won't drag that here). Still, since it boils down to most rather than all, it's not a subject I can contend with and shall thus agree to disagree.

Ahh got you again. he is not doing that for himself

he is doing it for Sasuke. thats what he spoke about.

Shizune flat out says she is doing it for himself. I have no doubt that he is doing it for Sasuke as well, but that still doesn't change the fact that he is also motivated by self-interest.

Yup that what's I believe Sakura will do. She will show him how strong her love for him really is, having a life with her will be the perfect reason for Naruto to live. After all if he really does love Sakura truly then he will take the chance when she lays her heart on the line for him.

Personally, I was hoping she'd do that this chapter. Knock some sense into him after healing him maybe. Instead, she is happy with what he is doing. Hopefully, she changes her mind next chapter, but no such luck probably.

Edited by Kenny-kun, 21 March 2010 - 02:19 AM.

[Gravenimage]

Kenny-kun@

That's a long post however no double posting okay?

[Kenny-kun]

Kenny-kun@

That's a long post however no double posting okay?

Won't happen again.

[ShippudenGirl]

Ayaaa. Debates are so tiresome.

Anyways, I'm bored.

NH-
•Hinata is a Hyuuga, Hyuuga stay within bloodline.
•Naruto never loved her.
•Hinata's "love" I find to be more admiration.
•Kishimoto isn't gonna put Hinata into the main plot.
•Hinata is a seconday character, what's so hard to understand?
•No development..

SS-
•Sasuke tried to kill her (Choke/Stab/Chidori)
•Sasuke always found her annoying.
•Sakura was freakin' 12, she's grown-up, get over it.
•Why would Sakura love a lunatic?
•Sasuke can only be redeemed through death [Most likely]
•If you want Sakura to be with someone who tried to kill her, and the 5 Kages, you rather...
A. Are completely ignorant.
B. Hate Sakura that much.
C. Thinks a maniac deserves the love he's had so many chances to get, but almost killed his closest female bond (Karin)

NS-
•Development.
•Scenes throughout Manga.
•Feelings being realized.
•Naruto has always liked Sakura.
•Sakura's feelings for Naruto are truer then ones for Sasuke.
•They fight to protect each other.
•Sakura can be her true self around Naruto.
•Sakura has been with Naruto almost as long as anyone else (Alive)
•Kishimoto can't make it more obvious or I'd become canon.
•Sakura punches Naruto to put him in his place.
•They've had more moments then any other throughout the Manga.
•Friends? Sure. Romantic? Heading that way.
•Naruto hasn't shown/admitted feelings of love/crush towards any other girl but Sakura.
•Yamato implied Sakura's feelings.
•Sai implied Naruto's feeling.

Okay, just killing time. Kenny-kun, if you debate against this I'll hurt you. •.• Scary.

[Miss Soupy]

Yes, we know why Sasuke went down the path of hatred, but doesn't address the issue of the origin of human conflict or how to resolve it entirely. If Naruto thinks he has found the solution based on understanding Sasuke or him having felt it before, then I remain convinced that Kishi has in no way "dealt" with the deep issue of human conflict. He has acknowledged it plotwise (Naruto helping Sasuke come back to the "light side"), but nothing more than that.

The origins of human conflict...sounds like something you could spend your whole life studying but not every find a clear answer. My original point was that Kishimoto covers some pretty deep questions. He may not explain everything but he doesn't need to in order for his material to have more depth than other shounen stories. Compared to most shounen that is good guy vs bad guy, at least. Deals with, touches on, whatever you want to call it, I find it material that many ages above the designated target audience could appreciate and learn from. Basically I am disagreeing with an argument of 'it can't contain deep material because it's written for kids!'.

Pretty much. If we're lucky, we may even get some Harry/Hermoine.

Or Harry/Hermione/Ron so everyone wins

We don't know if he expects Sakura to become the most powerful shinobi ever or if he expects her to keep her 'day job per se'; we know nothing about Naruto's expections. All we know is that he is content with her, hence is content with her overall performance, regardless of what it is.

Keep in mind that Sai is the only one who has given her any reason to doubt herself, based on him telling her that she has just been causing Naruto pain (although that wasn't his intention).

And how has Naruto not been honest with her?

Yes we know, as the audience, but that doesn't mean the character knows.

But obviously Sakura agreed based on her own experiences. She felt that yes, she had been burdening him. And truthfully, the POAL was a burden, whether Naruto would go through with it anyways or not.

Naruto did not tell her about going to Iron, getting beaten by Karui, or about the secret info on Sasuke (tho that was because Kakashi told him to keep quiet). All in all, he has been keeping Sakura in the dark lately, but she has allowed him to do things for her as well (which brings back that guilt thing :/ )

Yes, but you said she doubted herself based on Sasuke's comments when she loved him. I was simply showing how using Sasuke as an example harms your argument.Lets look at these two pages for a second:

I said she doubted herself especially because of his comments. She had poor self-esteem even before Sasuke. All I meant was his comments certainly didn't help her.

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/3/16/
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/3/17/


Looking at these pages, I have just two questions for you:

1) Why do you think she wanted Sasuke's acknowledgment?
2) Why do you think she loved Sasuke?

I'm not sure why actually, though I have always assumed it has something to do with her desire to be popular and her initial crush on him because he is good looking and has a cool personality. Why do her feelings mature into love? I think she saw a glimpse of the good person he could have been (if his life hadn't been so messed up).

1) That's just Kubo's excuse for writing while high most of the time.

But seriously, I don't think authors are powerless. At the same time though, I do not think that authors are in no way influenced by their fans. As you say, I think successful authors are somewhere in the middle (Kishimoto not being an exception). I think Kishimoto is going to end this manga in a certain way in terms of what is crucial to the plot, but I wouldn't be so sure about anything else.

Kubo is awesome. He writes some pretty funny stuff on his twitter XD Kishimoto doesn't even have a computer

2) Heheh. I trust him ( in spite of having reason not to, as he has contradicted himself many times when it has come to his input during press interviews and the events of the actual manga, such as this "Year of Sakura" which he promised we'd get or there being plans to have a big emphasis on romance as early as 2006), but I wouldn't put it past him to adhere to his words without a twist of some sort (the example of an abiguous ending which I've already provided would be one way of doing this).

Oh yeah, any of those comments about 'the year of so and so' are never correct. He should just say year of sasuke every time and be done with it, because it seems like that's all we get anyways. But still, if he has had the ending itself planned out since the beginning, I believe that is something he will stick to, and it quite possibly includes an end pairing. If not, I guess I'd be ok with a no-pairings ending, because then NS would always live on in fanfiction XD! But goodness, thinking that the Big 3 could be at war for eternity is such a horrifying thought.

What's unrealistic about it? He knocks Sasuke out and has him detained if he is not willing to cooperate (though one more talk-no-jutsu should do the job ).

Talk-no-jutsu is no longer super effective D: (except on Sakura )

1) I don't necessarily agree, but for the sake of discussion, I agree. Though to add to your input, taking all of his hatred means Naruto dying, since the two fighting with all they have is a result which Naruto has confirmed through fighting Sasuke with his "fist" rather than words.

Not sure I actually believe that no words, only fists part. How can Naruto go through a battle without using his ultimate move? I suppose if Naruto doesn't speak, Itachi just might ;D

2) Naruto has said that Sasuke will be saved regardless. If he dies, the two can understand one another in the afterlife . Basically, Naruto feels he can save Sasuke whether he chooses to fight him or not (if Sasuke doesn't choose to fight him, that means he has seen the error in his ways). The only outcome in which Sasuke isn't saved is if he kills Naruto first, hence why we see Sasuke saying "I'll kill you first" as well as "And I don't plan on dying. You're the one who will die."

Based on all of this, I'm not too sure why Sakura has renewed hope unless she thinks Sasuke is not going to fight Naruto with all he has and come to his senses. Or maybe I missed. something.

Surely though, that after-life thing isn't really what Naruto wants. Like I said, he is prepared for it, but I'm sure if he sees a chance to actually save Sasuke and still live, he will take that opportunity. And that is most likely what will occur. Sasuke on the other hand, is just being stubborn about it. It probably really bothers him that a no one like Naruto could be on par with him and speak so confidently. He doesn't want to lose his darkness, doesn't want to change, so he says he will just kill him first (as if it would be that easy). Naruto still wants Sasuke acknowledgment, but Sasuke refuses to give it.

[ShippudenGirl]

Does SS still think it's possible?
Just curious.

[Derock]

Does SS still think it's possible?
Just curious.

Why do you ask that question?

[ShippudenGirl]

Why do you ask that question?

Because SS fans are a rebellious bunch xD

[Gravenimage]

Does SS still think it's possible?
Just curious.

Shippu-chan that's like asking if the sky is blue. Besides N/H fans to this very day they still think their pairing can happen in the manga, it's the same thing with S/S fans. They will continue supporting their pairing even if Sasuke has tried to killed Sakura three times.

Edited by Gravenimage, 21 March 2010 - 08:46 PM.

[ShippudenGirl]

I guess there is no hope To bad they'll be dissappointed when NS becomes canon possibly soon

[Gravenimage]

I guess there is no hope To bad they'll be dissappointed when NS becomes canon possibly soon

They won't be happy they might go insane but come on it won't be the end of the world at least for them. As long as fan art doujinshis and fan fiction exist there will always be N/H and S/S to them.

[ShippudenGirl]

Ehhhhhhhhhhhhhh. Ahaha! The irony! i'm writting a fanfic right now (NS of course)

Anywho. Still don't think Hinata's confession needs resolve as the fans think. Nuff said.

Someone gimme an argument. Before I die of bordom

[firegirl]

? how do u know that kishi was reading hate mail from naruhina fans in the interview?

[ShippudenGirl]

I don't know

Anything gooood to debate against? Pweaze?

[narukunsakuchan]

So I was in the sasusaku fan club on narutofan.com looking around, and is it just me or is it that the sasuke they seem to "see" in the manga actually the way that actually describes naruto's personality? I don't know if anyone else has notices that.

Where they don't see the crazy psychotic bastard, but someone who deeply cares about sakura and is "considerate of her feelings" as some of them have said on there. Personally it just made me lol. Tell me what you guys think

Edited by narukunsakuchan, 21 March 2010 - 11:56 PM.

[Gravenimage]

So I was in the sasusaku fan club on narutofan.com looking around, and is it just me or is it that the sasuke they seem to "see" in the manga actually the way that actually describes naruto's personality? I don't know if anyone else has notices that.

Where they don't see the crazy psychotic bastard, but someone who deeply cares about sakura and is "considerate of her feelings" as some of them have said on there. Personally it just made me lol. Tell me what you guys think

why am I not surprise? that's how they have always seen Sasuke. They usually change personalities between them, Sasuke being like Naruto and him being like Sasuke. Can you believe it Naruto being an emo avenger?

Edited by Gravenimage, 22 March 2010 - 12:06 AM.

[ciardha]

So I was in the sasusaku fan club on narutofan.com looking around, and is it just me or is it that the sasuke they seem to "see" in the manga actually the way that actually describes naruto's personality? I don't know if anyone else has notices that.

Where they don't see the crazy psychotic bastard, but someone who deeply cares about sakura and is "considerate of her feelings" as some of them have said on there. Personally it just made me lol. Tell me what you guys think

Sounds very similar to things people have pointed out where some naruhina fanart turns Hinata's personality into Sakura's tsundere side. I don't begin to understand why for either.

[Gravenimage]

Sounds very similar to things people have pointed out where some naruhina fanart turns Hinata's personality into Sakura's tsundere side. I don't begin to understand why for either.

Oh yeah I have seen those, the pictures clearly tell that Hinata can only be with Naruto if she was a tsundere like Sakura.