787 replies to this topic

[Dkey]

 

 

 

"What is there to know?"

 

 

This train of thought right here is the entire problem even though no one wants to admit it. You say above that she wanted a better future and peace. Ok. Good motives. And then she magically achieves this. But when it comes to how no one but me is appearing to care.

What really makes me laugh is Madara has been really off to the side and people have been wondering about his motives, reasons and actions for like 10 chapters now. So in order to give Madara some exposition into why he feels the way he does and panel time Kishi invents this Kagura woman who ate the evil fruit and brought peace then the war again that is now crescendoing into ALL our problems and will probably never be expanded on again.

How she GOT the fruit or even knew what it did wasn't even explained very well if at all. She shouldn't have even had motivation to eat it according to Madara. This is a HUGE lynchpin and more storybuilding then we've seen in Naruto in a LONG time and she's glossed over as the baby momma. Women who are defined by their biological functions are not characters. PERIOD. That's Character Building 101.

I can't paint it any more plainly for you.
 

 

 

Well if Kishi decided to make this woman Kaguya into a man wouldn't it be the same problem?

Couldn't this hypothetical man have a child of his own with the same traits ( being born with chakra)?

The general idea is that someone decided to use the Juubi's power to end war but couldn't defeat the Juubi when it went after the humans. But her son surpassed her where she couldn't. I seriously don't see why her failure is considered sexist but the Hokage's failures aren't.

Honestly please explain it to me why her having a child is so negative and disrespectful for women.

[Superman333]

 

 

Well if Kishi decided to make this woman Kaguya into a man wouldn't it be the same problem?

Couldn't this hypothetical man have a child of his own with the same traits ( being born with chakra)?

The general idea is that someone decided to use the Juubi's power to end war but couldn't defeat the Juubi when it went after the humans. But her son surpassed her where she couldn't. I seriously don't see why her failure is considered sexist but the Hokage's failures aren't.

Honestly please explain it to me why her having a child is so negative and disrespectful for women.

i guess its the fact that thats what her whole character is based on I guess . 

[Weltall]

Am I the only one who think there's no reason for Sakura's state ? the people aroukd her like Sai and Katsuyu weren't affected by the tree so why is she down right now makes no sense, I think we should wait before making any conclusions, maybe Sakura's time is finally coming.

And now that the concept of the tree and the fruit has been introduced who do you think will eat it ( because that's bound to happen) ? my bet is Sasuke will.

[Hanabi]

@weltall some people said it might be because she is linked to the whole alliance via katsuyu clones, so those shinobi that got caught by shinju might have sucked in her chakra leaving sakura weakened.

 

and yea, the devil fruit is the most probable upgrade for sasuke.

Edited by Hanabi, 12 September 2013 - 08:53 AM.

[Weltall]

@weltall some people said it might be because she is linked to the whole alliance via katsuyu clones, so those shinobi that got caught by shinju might have sucked in her chakra leaving sakura weakened.
 
and yea, the devil fruit is the most probable upgrade for sasuke.

I'm sorry I didn't read all the thread it's an interesting idea but shouldn't Katsuyu be aware of that or affected by it too ? either way and whatever the explanation is I don't think Kishi did this for no reason, he could have easily avoided that, I expect more about this in the upcoming chapters.

We both agree on that the fruit is most likely Sasuke's next powerup.

[Dkey]

I'm sorry I didn't read all the thread it's an interesting idea but shouldn't Katsuyu be aware of that or affected by it too ? either way and whatever the explanation is I don't think Kishi did this for no reason, he could have easily avoided that, I expect more about this in the upcoming chapters.

We both agree on that the fruit is most likely Sasuke's next powerup.

we all wait to see what happens. As for the fruit Don't know maybe

[Nate River]

"What is there to know?"
 
 
This train of thought right here is the entire problem even though no one wants to admit it. You say above that she wanted a better future and peace. Ok. Good motives. And then she magically achieves this. But when it comes to how no one but me is appearing to care.

What really makes me laugh is Madara has been really off to the side and people have been wondering about his motives, reasons and actions for like 10 chapters now. So in order to give Madara some exposition into why he feels the way he does and panel time Kishi invents this Kagura woman who ate the evil fruit and brought peace then the war again that is now crescendoing into ALL our problems and will probably never be expanded on again.

How she GOT the fruit or even knew what it did wasn't even explained very well if at all. She shouldn't have even had motivation to eat it according to Madara. This is a HUGE lynchpin and more storybuilding then we've seen in Naruto in a LONG time and she's glossed over as the baby momma. Women who are defined by their biological functions are not characters. PERIOD. That's Character Building 101.

I can't paint it any more plainly for you.

I care. It's why I told Darkrest it reeks of Underpants Gnomes. Also it never said her motive was a better future and peace, just to end all conflicts. That's the assumption and I'm sure Kishimoto's intent, otherwise why bother with this, but it's just another example of how weak this all is.

[sushi.]

i guess its the fact that thats what her whole character is based on I guess . 

This is her introduction. It's too early to say.

 

Kaguya = Mary, Hagoromo(correct?) = Jesus, Naruto = Second coming

 

lol it's that similar to jewish/muslim/christian beliefs.

 

Anyway I think people want and explanation of how because they find it hard to believe. It is stupid..the people were told by somebody they couldn't eat the fruit, yet Kaguya ate it knowing it would grant her power. How did she know? Did the others know? Who told them(must be someone important, because everyone but Kaguya listened)?

[Sakamaki Izayoi]

I care. It's why I told Darkrest it reeks of Underpants Gnomes. Also it never said her motive was a better future and peace, just to end all conflicts. That's the assumption and I'm sure Kishimoto's intent, otherwise why bother with this, but it's just another example of how weak this all is.

Her intention wasnt to end all the conflicts, he said she was desperate because she was losing the war, then she ate the fruit on a desperate move, and then ended all the conflicts with her powers.

She ate the fruit not because she wanted to end all the conflicts but to win a war and later with this power she ended all the conflicts then she had a son who was born with chakra thus infuriating the juubi which wanted to have his chakra back but ended up being sealed by the guy who became the sage of the six paths.

Edited by Dαrkrєrsŧ, 12 September 2013 - 04:24 PM.

[narusakurama]

What I want to know is how Naruto is going to recover from this. I feel like that if he goes BM mode, it will be the last because a lot of chakra was taken away and so, we are definitely near end.

 

There is the option that Minato will give him the other half of the Kyuubi . Minato  didn t seem to have been caught by the tree , and hasn t used as much chakra as Naruto either , other than the combined rasengan and some jumps .

[BakeNeko-Chan]

 

There is the option that Minato will give him the other half of the Kyuubi . Minato  didn t seem to have been caught by the tree , and hasn t used as much chakra as Naruto either , other than the combined rasengan and some jumps .

 

Yes, I'm anticipating that coming soon, it was pretty much inevitable once Minato was revived. And chances are it'll probably bring another power up in the future - not so sure how I feel about that

[TouKen4Life3g]

I know Minato will help, but again, it's been used already and he got some drained if I remember him saying it. All I'm saying is that we are definitely at the end.

[Mistraal]

 

 

Well if Kishi decided to make this woman Kaguya into a man wouldn't it be the same problem?

Couldn't this hypothetical man have a child of his own with the same traits ( being born with chakra)?

The general idea is that someone decided to use the Juubi's power to end war but couldn't defeat the Juubi when it went after the humans. But her son surpassed her where she couldn't. I seriously don't see why her failure is considered sexist but the Hokage's failures aren't.

Honestly please explain it to me why her having a child is so negative and disrespectful for women.

 

 

There are plenty of examples of poorly written male "characters" and a lot of them are sexist. Joseph, Jesus's human father in the bible is a good example. Virtually every "Prince Charming" in every fairy tale written is another. These men are essentially defined by the role they are "supposed" to play in a family hierarchical system or their biology and we have NO idea who they really are.

 

The Hokage's failures had infinitely more buildup, exposition and execution. One only needs to look at the entire character of Danzo to see this.

 

Having a child is not disrespectful or negative. Her character only existing because the miracle baby had to come from somewhere is. In short, you only exist because of biology and plot. To be frank, childbirth in general is painted pretty negatively in popular fiction and usually only used as a cheap literary tactic. Maybe it's an American thing but you do NOT want the writers to make your character pregnant in any popular fiction show or book because it will probably turn out to be A.) Demon baby spawn of Satan  B.) There will be some kind of "Magical Impregnation" where the daddy seeks magical sole custody after the mom is done being an incubation vat  C.) My personal favorite ( ) is the "Forced Impregnation". Not even gonna go deeper on this one.

In short, Kishimoto has had infinite opportunities to prove me wrong regarding this subject (Sakura's powerup is a great example) but he has yet to do so. I really hope he does someday though.

 

 

 

Her intention wasnt to end all the conflicts, he said she was desperate because she was losing the war, then she ate the fruit on a desperate move, and then ended all the conflicts with her powers.

She ate the fruit not because she wanted to end all the conflicts but to win a war and later with this power she ended all the conflicts then she had a son who was born with chakra thus infuriating the juubi which wanted to have his chakra back but ended up being sealed by the guy who became the sage of the six paths.

 

This really depends on what translation you read. Mangastream says pretty bluntly she thought it would be a good idea if someone had godlike powers and then she used them to end the conflicts. I don't recall anything about what side was winning or not.

Regardless of what is correct, this is another example of how poorly done the reveal was. No one is even sure of the motivations behind it.

Perhaps we can get one of our amazing forum friends to provide a raw translation?

 

 

 

This is her introduction. It's too early to say.

 

Kaguya = Mary, Hagoromo(correct?) = Jesus, Naruto = Second coming

 

lol it's that similar to jewish/muslim/christian beliefs.

 

Anyway I think people want and explanation of how because they find it hard to believe. It is stupid..the people were told by somebody they couldn't eat the fruit, yet Kaguya ate it knowing it would grant her power. How did she know? Did the others know? Who told them(must be someone important, because everyone but Kaguya listened)?

 

 

Bolded: This is some pretty good extrapolation right here.

It is her introduction and I'm genuinely hoping I'm jumping the gun and Kaguya will turn out to be a fully fleshed out character with motivations and goals that are actually explained but I'm not holding my breath.

Edited by Mistraal, 12 September 2013 - 07:33 PM.

[Sakamaki Izayoi]

 

 

There are plenty of examples of poorly written male "characters" and a lot of them are sexist. Joseph, Jesus's human father in the bible is a good example. Virtually every "Prince Charming" in every fairy tale written is another. These men are essentially defined by the role they are "supposed" to play in a family hierarchical system or their biology and we have NO idea who they really are.

 

The Hokage's failures had infinitely more buildup, exposition and execution. One only needs to look at the entire character of Danzo to see this.

 

Having a child is not disrespectful or negative. Her character only existing because the miracle baby had to come from somewhere is. In short, you only exist because of biology and plot. To be frank, childbirth in general is painted pretty negatively in popular fiction and usually only used as a cheap literary tactic. Maybe it's an American thing but you do NOT want the writers to make your character pregnant in any popular fiction show or book because it will probably turn out to be A.) Demon baby spawn of Satan  B.) There will be some kind of "Magical Impregnation" where the daddy seeks magical sole custody after the mom is done being an incubation vat  C.) My personal favorite ( ) is the "Forced Impregnation". Not even gonna go deeper on this one.

In short, Kishimoto has had infinite opportunities to prove me wrong regarding this subject (Sakura's powerup is a great example) but he has yet to do so. I really hope he does someday though.

 

 

 

 

This really depends on what translation you read. Mangastream says pretty bluntly she thought it would be a good idea if someone had godlike powers and then she used them to end the conflicts. I don't recall anything about what side was winning or not.

Regardless of what is correct, this is another example of how poorly done the reveal was. No one is even sure of the motivations behind it.

Perhaps we can get one of our amazing forum friends to provide a raw translation?

 

Despite even if both are true it's not a poorly explanation because peace did happened, i wish i could know what poorly is because i've seen way worse things happening, like Naruto getting another power-up (sage + kurama) and got discarded on a matter of 5 panels, Sakura's powerup (voila seal awakening right when she had to fight), Edo tenseis but only the third hokage came back old, Minato having half of the kurama's chakra which is ridiculous, Juubi being able to be ressurrected without having both KURAMA AND HACHIBI When only half of kurama's chakra is stronger than 7 bijuus combined.

 

I think it was fine but poor writing for me is the juubi and how kishi ressurrected it, it opens a dangerous precedent that you cant just have one juubi but you can have two three or even four.

I can only facepalm to the whole Naruto vs Juubi on every chapter literally.

Edited by Dαrkrєrsŧ, 12 September 2013 - 08:05 PM.

[T XD]

The chapter's history part is nothing to look too deep in. Same goes for the chapter as a whole. Some are really looking into things like everything need to be known in each way possible.

It's manga. The most we could know of is main characters and their development till the end. Did we ever see other than that as in detailed way ? There are some events that turn out to be useful and are detailed later on. Maybe this one is like that. If it's not, it's just for the sake of telling something historical that happened before for the tree and the Infinite Tsukuyomi.

 

It's simple.

 

Kaguya wanted to bring peace and ate the fruit. After that, the chakra that was in the tree is passed to humans. She was pregnant and had the Sage of the Sixth Path. The latter stopped the tree from harming his mother and the people... That's it.

 

The questions such as: How did she know that the fruit gives power ? Why the Sage of the Sixth Path was the one to stop the tree afterwards ? Why and how ? Etc.

We have the right to know and maybe we'll know one or two things from this later. If not, the history thing in that chapter was just for mere information on the tree and some new knowledge of Kaguya and Sage of the Sixth Path.

 

But, there are questions that really don't need to be answered like " How did she know the fruit gives power ? ". It just needs a simple link, and I'm sure we all knew the nature of the fruit while we were reading which it goes like this:

The god tree that is powerful had a fruit which that happens once in a millennium. People know that they shouldn't land their hand on the fruit ----> Meaning: A fruit from a god tree has immense power and it's sacred and if it's eaten, this person will have great power. No need for the author to say that... Really.

 

It's really not something to look too deep in. Take it as what it is and wait for the arc to finish to judge on something. It's manga for fun, not for irritation.

Edited by T XD, 12 September 2013 - 09:16 PM.

[Qia]

This is her introduction. It's too early to say.

 

Kaguya = Mary, Hagoromo(correct?) = Jesus, Naruto = Second coming

 

lol it's that similar to jewish/muslim/christian beliefs.

 

Anyway I think people want and explanation of how because they find it hard to believe. It is stupid..the people were told by somebody they couldn't eat the fruit, yet Kaguya ate it knowing it would grant her power. How did she know? Did the others know? Who told them(must be someone important, because everyone but Kaguya listened)?

How could Kaguya= Mary? Wouldn't it make more sense to say she's Eve, with the "forbidden fruit" and all? Either way...don't you guys think you're thinking a bit too deeply into this? 

Edited by Qia, 12 September 2013 - 10:03 PM.

[Sakamaki Izayoi]

How could Kaguya= Mary? Wouldn't it make more sense to say she's Eve, with the "forbidden fruit" and all? Either way...don't you guys think you're thinking a bit too deeply into this? 

I think the same.

[sushi.]

How could Kaguya= Mary? Wouldn't it make more sense to say she's Eve, with the "forbidden fruit" and all? Either way...don't you guys think you're thinking a bit too deeply into this? 

Or Eve. That would make more sense actually. Maybe Kushina is Mary lol Naruto is Jesus after all XD

 

And no. It's not too deep.

Edited by sushi., 12 September 2013 - 11:15 PM.

[Qia]

Or Eve. That would make more sense actually. Maybe Kushina is Mary lol Naruto is Jesus after all XD

 

And no. It's not too deep.

Okay so how exactly is Kushina Mary? Because sacrificing her life for her son doesn't just have to do with scripture. Most mothers who love their child would do that in a heartbeat. And how is Naruto Jesus exactly? Yes, he'll change the world for good, but there have been many stories where heroes have done that, which aren't necessarily connected to scripture either. So please...explain. Because I don't see the connection. 

Edited by Qia, 13 September 2013 - 12:19 AM.

[Mistraal]

Okay so how exactly is Kushina Mary? Because sacrificing her life for her son doesn't just have to do with scripture. Most mothers who love their child would do that in a heartbeat. And how is Naruto Jesus exactly? Yes, he'll change the world for good, but there have been many stories where heroes have done that, which aren't necessarily connected to scripture either. So please...explain. Because I don't see the connection. 

 

Generally, the idea is that the bible and similar religious books and stories are some of the oldest literature on the planet. Not only do most of them have huge storylines in common, they also are extremely prolific worldwide as a result.  This si why it's so easy for people to draw parallels between the Kagura story and tales from the Christianity/Hindu/Whatever. While they might not be 100% accuracies it's pretty hard to deny the similarities.

Additionally, authors will "borrow" these story lines and ideas because they are already extremely prolific and well-accepted which, in turn, makes your story more accepted/believable because of it's similarities to a story the reader may already know and/or believe in.

 

In my humble opinion, it's lazy, cheesy and a total cop-out.  

Edited by Mistraal, 13 September 2013 - 12:42 AM.