54213 replies to this topic

[Bryon_Konoha_Ninja]

 

As long as she finds pleasure in this - for whatever reason - I don't think so.

 

Yeah, though all we can do is push back until she either gives up or that a mod does something about her.

[Bryon_Konoha_Ninja]

Oh you have no idea.

This is a discussion I had with a random NH fan on facebook.



I want you to understand this. This person admits that even though there are characters far worse than Sakura ever was with Naruto....she still says it was all abuse.

sigh

 

And this also shows how NH fans have NO IDEA about comedy and tsundere nature in anime or manga, or if they do, it's the fact Sakura is in "the way" that they just ignore it, since in the long run, they could like other tsundere characters in other anime, or others who come off "abusive", which shows them to be hypocrites.

[Namaenash]

 

Acknowledgment and like don't really mean the same thing from Naruto's standpoint. It's actually more significant given what his life had been like up until the point. So to haphazardly use the same term (i.e. Naruto wants Sakura to "crave his acknowledgment instead of Sasuke's") is both misleading and equivocation without justification.

 

But ultimately, none of that matters. I repeatedly accuse you of offering your opinion in place of an actual argument because that is exactly what you are doing. The fact that Naruto would like Sakura to love him instead of Sasuke does not lead us to the conclusion that he is simply in it to compete with Sasuke. What we see on panel are multiple indications of legitimate and sincere feelings from Naruto. From the way he is drawn during the near-kiss scene to the way he is able to understand her feelings (a point reinforced 186 chapters later), nowhere is this "I only say I love Sakura because I want to beat Sasuke!" angle ever presented. A fact which is all the more clear from your hamfisted efforts to say otherwise (i.e. making up off the wall phrases like "crave his acknowledgment instead of Sasuke's", trying to pass off bench scene as insincere due Naruto's use of deception, trying to pass off the databook's references to love as merely being platonic). We can play all the mental gymnastics in the world or we can simply acknowledge the fact that Naruto is flawed manga, Masashi Kishimoto is a flawed manga author and that Naruto is one of numerous stories with flawed storytelling

 

 

Nicely put.

 

In the end, majority of NS fans deal with this flaw and moved on to other series. Few of us are around to poke a joke on the new series and to see the downward motion. Not to sound evil, but for me personally, there's this small 'satisfaction' to see that my prediction regarding where the series would be (in terms of manga sales) came to fruition. Pareto principles that I mentioned way back in November 2014.

 

Not to be rude, but I guess, our dear Analyzer is a true example of what kind of persona those who supports the ending are. The types of readers Naruto series deserves. It's not necessarily bad by the way. It's just very different with majority of NS fans, especially those in this site.

[Bryon_Konoha_Ninja]

Yeah...which is what I don't get.

Why ONLY Naruto though? I never see these people talk about how Rukia is abusive and Ichigo deserves to be with Orihime. I never see hardly anyone call another Tsundere abusive....except for Sakura. They only call Sakura abusive despite many character in other series or even Naruto itself that have done FAR WORSE. I don't get. I really really don't.

 

James, I really don't either, but as I said, I get the feeling that it's simply because Sakura reminds them of their flaws and all that crap, but also because they see her as "in the way of their precious princess getting what she deserves". Also shows how they basically don't care about the main character and what he would want, so they gotta be these little pissants.

Edited by Bryon_Konoha_Ninja, 06 October 2017 - 06:16 PM.

[lupina]

 

Yeah, though all we can do is push back until she either gives up or that a mod does something about her.

 

I think we did that long enough.

All the points she brings up have been discussed/debunked at least a couple of times before. She always pretends that this has never happened or that her arguments have not been refutet, allthough they clearly had been.

 

I don't think that there is a point in this.

[lupina]

(Wait a second ... JamesCassidy2 ...??? What happened?)

[Moon_Girl]

 

Yeah, though all we can do is push back until she either gives up or that a mod does something about her.

Or, even better, everyone can stop responding to her and just ignore her.  If everyone is so against Analyzer being here, then don't feed her with replies. Over the months, it has been proven time and time again that she is not a NaruSaku fan that believed it was very real like the majority did. She's not here to delight in NaruSaku or grumble about the ending like the rest of us, so...yeah.

 

 

it is a sad tragic day for real anime fans I'll tell you what. If this is what the anime industry has to look forward to then maybe Miyazaki was right....Otakus are destroying the anime industry as we know it.

 
This this this this this.
I've long believed that what Miyazaki said is true. Otakus are ruining anime. That's one of the reasons why I'm so picky about what anime I watch and cling to older, good anime shows. 

Edited by Moon_Girl, 06 October 2017 - 06:31 PM.

[Qia]

(Wait a second ... JamesCassidy2 ...??? What happened?)

Wondering the same thing Maybe he forgot his pw. Also...they get a divorce??? o.0 

[Moon_Girl]

No offense to the forum, but I generally see much more grumbling than "delighting". Or if delighting is done, it's at the expense of putting something else down. When I see that, I get bewildered and wonder why it is necessary to enjoy the pairing.

 

Frankly, no, I -like- the ending, so why would I grumble? I've enjoyed the rare, rare comic and pic that was shown, but they're extraordinarily rare. Mostly grumbling, which I don't mind, because I enjoy defending the manga I love. it's imperfect, but still a fine tale. 

 

Even if I'm ignored, this bothers me more than anything, the mindset that an NS fan must not -like- the ending. It's really false. 

 

Many of us are grumbling because the ending was handled extremely poorly. I think most of us could move on quietly if not begrudgingly if Studio Pierrot and Kishimoto didn't try so hard to do damage control and say things that blatantly offended the fans. They've insulted our reading comprehension, they've retconned too much for us to ignore. I think if "The Last" never happened and they kept quiet, then most of us would move on.

But for people like me, who spent over 10 years on the series, a fan whom loved the series and characters even before it came to America, I can't simply move on when a series I've loved since I was a kid gets completely destroyed before my eyes in less than a year's time. I spent so much time on this series. Digested so much information and examined the characters. Studio Pierrot and Kishimoto literally cannot pull the wool over my eyes. I was there for past interviews. For past events. For past fandoms. I've seen it all and that's why I can't let go because of how obvious this bull is. 
There are a lot of members like this as well. 

You can be a NS fan and still like the ending. Albeit extremely odd and rare...and frankly a lot of us have a hard time believing you. However, what bothers us is that we're all obviously very unhappy with the ending and you keep pushing your views on us and telling us we're wrong. You've obviously been upsetting the members here and making them dislike you. If anything, you've brought this upon yourself. It's been what, since June this year since you've joined? It's pretty obvious your views, beliefs and opinions are rejected here and upsets pretty much everyone here. If anything, the fact you keep doing this despite how much it upsets the members, is pretty dang rude of you. You're allowed to express your opinion and beliefs. However, to keep pushing them over and over and over and throwing out bait to the others the past few months is inconsiderate and unwelcome. Rude and disrespectful.

It's obvious you seem to view NaruSaku on the same level as a crack pairing; comparing it to SasuHina of all things! A ship that has nearly zero interaction on a canon level and even on a filler level! We do not. We all truly and honestly believed with our entire beings that NaruSaku was endgame. And so did thousands upon thousands of other fans. We were all terribly heartbroken when we found this pulled on us. The ending hurt us. That's why you're rejected here. Telling us to accept the ending and why we should. 
"Just accept that knife that was plunged into your heart." That's what you're telling us. We don't want to hear why you think the ending is fine. We don't want to accept the ending and we likely never will. Nothing and I mean nothing you say to us will change that. You're wasting our time and yours.

[T XD]

Usually, 15 to 20 minutes till Analyzer gets back.

 

It's like she developed a biological clock

[Shadow Wolf]

The mindset that an NS fan must not -like- the ending. It's really false.

This will be the last time I pay attention to your replies, but I will say the following: This statement right here is what makes or breaks the difference between you and the rest of the forum. You accept things are they are thrown to you without really questioning why. Naruto's ending was not just a disappointing failure for NS fans, but also for many Naruto fans in general. Sure, talk about numbers, about Kishi's statements (which btw, at one point even Junko which is Naruto's actress told him to shut up), and about the legacy left in Boruto, but in the end, we are not grumbling, but we are presenting several reasons to be disappointed with the ending. Many people here are writers who have taken writing courses just as you, and I am sure that there are other people with careers related to storytelling. Me? I studied psychology and mental health. Does that give me more knowledge than my peers and that you? No! But it does not give me less either.

However, with other stories I have felt satisfied with the ending even though couples may have not necessarily gotten together (like the Slam Dunk manga for example). Why? Because the ending was cohesive in regards to the whole story.

We do not feel that way about Naruto because many plot lines were left unresolved. Honestly, the ending feels no different from the miracles the Uchihas pull out of nowhere.


And I could go in and on... (Pay attention, since I have not mentioned NS within my words, but the story of Naruto itself), but in the end, I have concluded that you are content with what you have been given. You will not question the inconsistencies in the story because you do not see them, and I am OK with that. We can agree to disagree. So in the end, stay content with taking everything at face value. We on the other hand, will always question the inconsistencies (Kage Bunshin before the Ninja Academy... Conflict on a world where the pursuit of peace was a recurrent theme, as stated in Tales of a Gutsy Ninja... Unhappy marriages and marriages out of nowhere... Villains left to wander without suffering consequences for their crimes...) Because they are evident and because of these inconsistencies, we are left with en empty ending and a bland follow up to what could have been one of the greatest conclusions in the history of Manga.

PS:

Side note: Sakura is not Tsundere...

Tsundere (ツンデレ, pronounced [tsɯndeɾe]) is a Japanese term for a character development process that describes a person who is initially cold and even hostile towards another person before gradually showing a warmer side over time...


...They usually play out as having an attitude toward the main character, either a male or a female, and often criticizing them in one way or another, until they eventually warm up to them or fall in love with them as the series progresses, though they usually find it very hard to admit it or outright deny it in some cases.

...Databook 3 now...




If you can't see Hinata as a Moe and Sakura as a Tsundere even though both definitions and official material prove you otherwise, then I wonder what else you have failed to grasp...

Edited by Shadow Wolf, 06 October 2017 - 07:17 PM.

[Kagomaru]

This will be the last time I pay attention to your replies, but I will say the following: This statement right here is what makes or breaks the difference between you and the rest of the forum. You accept things are they are thrown to you without really questioning why. Naruto's ending was not just a disappointing failure for NS fans, but also for many Naruto fans in general. Sure, talk about numbers, about Kishi's statements (which btw, at one point even Junko which is Naruto's actress told him to shut up), and about the legacy left in Boruto, but in the end, we are not grumbling, but we are presenting several reasons to be disappointed with the ending. Many people here are writers who have taken writing courses just as you, and I am sure that there are other people with careers related to storytelling. Me? I studied psychology and mental health. Does that give me more knowledge than my peers and that you? No! But it does not give me less either.

However, with other stories I have felt satisfied with the ending even though couples may have not necessarily gotten together (like the Slam Dunk manga for example). Why? Because the ending was cohesive in regards to the whole story.

We do not feel that way about Naruto because many plot lines were left unresolved. Honestly, the ending feels no different from the miracles the Uchihas pull out of nowhere.


And I could go in and on... (Pay attention, since I have not mentioned NS within my words, but the story of Naruto itself), but in the end, I have concluded that you are content with what you have been given. You will not question the inconsistencies in the story because you do not see them, and I am OK with that. We can agree to disagree. So in the end, stay content with taking everything at face value. We on the other hand, will always question the inconsistencies (Kage Bunshin before the Ninja Academy... Conflict on a world where the pursuit of peace was a recurrent theme, as stated in Tales of a Gutsy Ninja... Unhappy marriages and marriages out of nowhere... Villains left to wander without suffering consequences for their crimes...) Because they are evident and because of these inconsistencies, we are left with en empty ending and a bland follow up to what could have been one of the greatest conclusions in the history of Manga.

PS:


...Databook 3 now...




If you can't see Hinata as a Moe and Sakura as a Tsundere even though both definitions and official material prove you otherwise, then I wonder what else you have failed to grasp...

...

 

I'm sorry, d-did Analyzer-chan just say that Sakura *isn't* a Tsundere?

 

...

 

Has she watched any other anime aside from Naruto?  Sakura fits every criteria of a tsundere, as does Kushina, Tsunade and Temari. Even the bloody fandom she's a part of (no matter how much she compulsively denies it) define her as a tsundere.

 

(...I know I've used ellipsis several times in my replies , but goodness if she doesn't warrant them.  Her replies just dumbfound me sometimes.)

Edited by Kagomaru, 06 October 2017 - 07:41 PM.

[T XD]

That's not the first time she said that Sakura isn't Tsundere. That's the third time I see her saying that. It's like saying the sun grows vegetables on its surface.

[T XD]

Approximately touché on the timing

[HalfDemonInuyasha]

Yeah...which is what I don't get.

Why ONLY Naruto though? I never see these people talk about how Rukia is abusive and Ichigo deserves to be with Orihime. I never see hardly anyone call another Tsundere abusive....except for Sakura. They only call Sakura abusive despite many character in other series or even Naruto itself that have done FAR WORSE. I don't get. I really really don't.

It doesn't even make sense from a Pairing competitive stand point, but they don't do it with any other couple they do. Just Naruto and Sakura.

Oh by the way, for the rest of the thread, should we show what Studio Perriot thought about Naruto's love for Sakura?
Because if even SP can see that Naruto loved Sakura...there is no excuse why anyone else couldn't.


Yeah I know I know, it is filler and has to be taken with a grain of salt, but from what I have seen...filler is just a legitimate as the manga so why not at this point?

Then again, SP have been known to be hypocritical, but whatever.

Show them Zero no Tsukaima / The Familiar of Zero if they want a real abusive, pink-haired "heroine", then ask them where in Naruto does Sakura do to Naruto that's anything remotely like most of what Louise does to Saito.
 

 

Many of us are grumbling because the ending was handled extremely poorly. I think most of us could move on quietly if not begrudgingly if Studio Pierrot and Kishimoto didn't try so hard to do damage control and say things that blatantly offended the fans. They've insulted our reading comprehension, they've retconned too much for us to ignore. I think if "The Last" never happened and they kept quiet, then most of us would move on.

But for people like me, who spent over 10 years on the series, a fan whom loved the series and characters even before it came to America, I can't simply move on when a series I've loved since I was a kid gets completely destroyed before my eyes in less than a year's time. I spent so much time on this series. Digested so much information and examined the characters. Studio Pierrot and Kishimoto literally cannot pull the wool over my eyes. I was there for past interviews. For past events. For past fandoms. I've seen it all and that's why I can't let go because of how obvious this bull is. 
There are a lot of members like this as well. 

You can be a NS fan and still like the ending. Albeit extremely odd and rare...and frankly a lot of us have a hard time believing you. However, what bothers us is that we're all obviously very unhappy with the ending and you keep pushing your views on us and telling us we're wrong. You've obviously been upsetting the members here and making them dislike you. If anything, you've brought this upon yourself. It's been what, since June this year since you've joined? It's pretty obvious your views, beliefs and opinions are rejected here and upsets pretty much everyone here. If anything, the fact you keep doing this despite how much it upsets the members, is pretty dang rude of you. You're allowed to express your opinion and beliefs. However, to keep pushing them over and over and over and throwing out bait to the others the past few months is inconsiderate and unwelcome. Rude and disrespectful.

It's obvious you seem to view NaruSaku on the same level as a crack pairing; comparing it to SasuHina of all things! A ship that has nearly zero interaction on a canon level and even on a filler level! We do not. We all truly and honestly believed with our entire beings that NaruSaku was endgame. And so did thousands upon thousands of other fans. We were all terribly heartbroken when we found this pulled on us. The ending hurt us. That's why you're rejected here. Telling us to accept the ending and why we should. 
"Just accept that knife that was plunged into your heart." That's what you're telling us. We don't want to hear why you think the ending is fine. We don't want to accept the ending and we likely never will. Nothing and I mean nothing you say to us will change that. You're wasting our time and yours.

Not to mention, most anti-enders using simple logic and not headcanon fantasy are essentially being told to outright ignore what's right on the pages in front of us. In fact, many people here would have accepted a NH ending (albeit disappointed) and moved on if it had the amount and type of development NS had (like IchiHime had around equal development as IchiRuki from what I've seen and read), but it simply doesn't, no matter how much "Analyzer" insists it does (yet still refuses to posts manga panels from the main story that proves it because she knows it's not true - more like she's trying to convince herself of it than us),

 

This will be the last time I pay attention to your replies, but I will say the following: This statement right here is what makes or breaks the difference between you and the rest of the forum. You accept things are they are thrown to you without really questioning why. Naruto's ending was not just a disappointing failure for NS fans, but also for many Naruto fans in general. Sure, talk about numbers, about Kishi's statements (which btw, at one point even Junko which is Naruto's actress told him to shut up), and about the legacy left in Boruto, but in the end, we are not grumbling, but we are presenting several reasons to be disappointed with the ending. Many people here are writers who have taken writing courses just as you, and I am sure that there are other people with careers related to storytelling. Me? I studied psychology and mental health. Does that give me more knowledge than my peers and that you? No! But it does not give me less either.

However, with other stories I have felt satisfied with the ending even though couples may have not necessarily gotten together (like the Slam Dunk manga for example). Why? Because the ending was cohesive in regards to the whole story.

We do not feel that way about Naruto because many plot lines were left unresolved. Honestly, the ending feels no different from the miracles the Uchihas pull out of nowhere.


And I could go in and on... (Pay attention, since I have not mentioned NS within my words, but the story of Naruto itself), but in the end, I have concluded that you are content with what you have been given. You will not question the inconsistencies in the story because you do not see them, and I am OK with that. We can agree to disagree. So in the end, stay content with taking everything at face value. We on the other hand, will always question the inconsistencies (Kage Bunshin before the Ninja Academy... Conflict on a world where the pursuit of peace was a recurrent theme, as stated in Tales of a Gutsy Ninja... Unhappy marriages and marriages out of nowhere... Villains left to wander without suffering consequences for their crimes...) Because they are evident and because of these inconsistencies, we are left with en empty ending and a bland follow up to what could have been one of the greatest conclusions in the history of Manga.

PS:


...Databook 3 now...




If you can't see Hinata as a Moe and Sakura as a Tsundere even though both definitions and official material prove you otherwise, then I wonder what else you have failed to grasp...

As mentioned, it sounds like she didn't see any other anime or read any other manga besides Naruto if she can honestly say with a straight face that Sakura isn't tsundere and/or that Hinata isn't moe.