4869 replies to this topic

[ShippudenGirl]

I hardly call it development, Sasuke pretty much hated Sakura and found her to be an annoyance. Don't see how that's development when the person you like just always looked down on you, but then you have this other guy who just happened to be blond and cheer you on whenever you do something cool/epic *cough* Naruto *cough* Now THATS what I call development :]

[Kenny-kun]

Ive noticed several people commenting on Sakuras so called ""Reversal"" of character. i myself do not believe this to be the case. I in fact believe this to be the stepping stone not only to a more mature character, but a stronger kunoichi as well.

Ah, I remember a point in which all it would take is a simple glance at one of these manifestos in order to remain convinced that there was more to these characters than what meets the eye. Suggesting that Sakura no longer loved Sasuke or that she was willing to kill him always brought peace to my mind. Over these recent chapters though, I've come to read the manga more objectively and am afraid that these manifestos are rather flawed. I like NaruSaku, but to demonstrate my point, let us take that above segment of yours into consideration.

II.3. To overcome these times of difficulties: drawing strength from each other.

I'm sorry, but what? Sakura drawing strength from Naruto has been established (just as she is willing to draw strength from Kakashi, Tsunade or even Sasuke based on her claim about believing in him in the recent chapter), but Naruto by no means draws strength from Sakura at the moment. The instant Naruto told her that he was cool with her dropping the POAL on the basis that he was doing it for himself, this fact became self-evident. Believe or not, Naruto draws strength from none other than Sasuke: http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/342/06/

But even in these times of difficulties, we see their relationship growing or rather... we see it deepening.

Afraid not as that would require that the two be in a relationship in the first place. There's some mutual interest, but no relationship going. There's absolutely nothing "growing" or "deepening"

Indeed, the cause of their increasing isolation is not because of lessening feelings, but on the contrary because of how Much they care for each other. And herein lies the solution: reaffirming their understanding of each other.

Nah, the cause of their isolation is far more simpler than that. Naruto thinks that he can't reveal his feelings to her if he isn't even good enough to keep his promises (interestingly enough, Sakura telling him to quit on his promise doesn't help this doubt complex at all). Sakura is simply unaware of what her feelings actually are (confirmed by the most recent databook). In essence, it's immaturity. Sakura needs to grow up and realize what her priorities are and Naruto needs to realize that keeping his promises has nothing to do with revealing how he feels. I'd say they also need to realize that Team 7 is the past (a past that wasn't even worth that much considering that the 3 shinobi have only been on like ONE real mission together before Sasuke was either training or in the hospital most of the time whereas Naruto was just out having adventures with Jiraiya . . . but in Kishi's mind, I suppose Team 7 was fully fleshed out ).

After the tragic events of the Kyuubi 4-tails transformation, a heartbroken Sakura also ponders what she can do for Naruto. 2.5 years of training, and all she can do is witness, witness, witness...

Um yeah Sakura. Maybe you wouldn't be such a failure if you'd actually TRAIN some more. You have the friggin Hokage as your master, yet feel satisfied with sitting around Konoha doing zippity doo dah! This is not really a rebuttal on my part, but more a criticism on how underdeveloped this character is. Discount this as being part of my reply.

I can only do the dumbest of things for Naruto.

The sad part is that this isn't a matter of limitations (what happened to that theme earlier on in part 1 about a loser being able to surpass an elite if he/she worked hard enough?). This is simply a matter of her being too lazy (or whatever the heck her problem is). Point is that she CAN do more than what she has already done for Naruto. Her self-doubt and chauvinistic author are her true weaknesses.

Within her feelings for Naruto, she will find the strength to make a difference as well.

Nah. Even with her "feelings" for Naruto, she can't do anything. The girl herself has asserted these sentiments.

But while Naruto is isolating himself, she'll be the touch of humanity to care for him and to remind him of what's important.

Back when she was punching out Sai for pushing Naruto's buttons? Yeah. Even to an extent when she punched him and gave him a hug? Yes. Ever since the chapter with the latter however, her character has been going downhill. Just after that chapter, she broke down and cried even with the mere mention of Sasuke and pointed out that it was Naruto who was cheering her up (not vice versa).

And while Sakura's words might not have gotten through to a Kyuubified Naruto

What words? She got knocked out before she could do a thing.

her actions leave ripples that finally did succeed in reaching Naruto's heart.

When?

Although Sakura is afraid of hurting Naruto, Yamato has no such personal qualms. So he's the one who tells Naruto, and it in doing so, reminds him of the importance of

Again, I'm a big NaruSaku fan, but I think this has been taken beyond it's intended context. Naruto doesn't want to cause ANYONE pain, whether it be Sakura, Hinata Gaara, Sasuke or anyone else who is closer to him. The purpose of this moment was by no means an indication in the advancement of the NaruSaku pairing.

this part of the manifesto to me clearly indicates where the story is most likely headed in regards to their re;ationship.

As I've implied, the manifesto is indeed an interesting read, but is no substitute for the actual manga. All being big fans of this pairing around here, we're all pretty biased and tend to exaggerate things beyond their actual intention. The manifesto does just that. Don't get me wrong; It has some good points, but when you compare the whole thing to what we've actually seen in these panels, it's inconsistent.

The time has come or will come soon when they stop taking third part interference and engage with each other. when they trust the other to be able to handle that additional burden.

In fan fiction? Yes. Off panel? Maybe (and that's a big MAYBE). On panel? Snow balls chance in hell maybe. We're nearly done with the manga and Sakura has already made her mind in simply "leaving it to Naruto." Sakura isn't even voicing a dissenting opinion about this "lets die together" garbage which he is spouting (which I had initially suspected she'd at least do during the last chapter). I'm telling you guys; if we get anything, it won't be much and will be up to interpretation (meaning you'll have a bunch of NaruHina/SasuSaku fanboys/fangirls saying "ha ha, i told u NaruSaku wouldnt happun!"

Anything is possible at this point, but your prediction is just too unlikely.

And something tells me that this confession business is going to be swept under the rug just like the business with Hinata (as pessimistic as I seem, I hope not).

Edited by Kenny-kun, 20 March 2010 - 12:53 AM.

[Evil Potato]

^ Wow, that is a lot of negativity. I think Kishi intends for Naruto to have a romantic other, I doubt that Kishi will just end the manga with everything up in the air. I do believe he said that Shippuden will have romance.

[Miss Soupy]

I'm sorry, but what? Sakura drawing strength from Naruto has been established (just as she is willing to draw strength from Kakashi, Tsunade or even Sasuke based on her claim about believing in him in the recent chapter), but Naruto by no means draws strength from Sakura at the moment. The instant Naruto told her that he was cool with her dropping the POAL on the basis that he was doing it for himself, this fact became self-evident. Believe or not, Naruto draws strength from none other than Sasuke: http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/342/06/

It seems like the difference here is that you are looking at one moment in time (now) rather than an overall trend. In fact, Naruto has drawn strength from Sakura in the past. It happens, and just because it doesn’t happen right now doesn’t mean it wont in the future. Are we to think other members of team 7 that are not named Sasuke hold no importance to Naruto? Of course not, team 7 will always hold a higher importance to him than anyone else. Naruto draws fuel from Sasuke, he is motivated because of him. But can he actually draw strength from him? More like he draws strength from his own personal feelings and belief in his nindo.

Afraid not as that would require that the two be in a relationship in the first place. There's some mutual interest, but no relationship going. There's absolutely nothing "growing" or "deepening"

Relationship does not automatically mean romantic. Here I think you took it as romantic, but that is not the only type of relationship being conveyed. And I think, after Sakura’s confession, their relationship will change in some way. Even if it’s not romantic development, though it could receive that; relationships are no just static things.

Nah, the cause of their isolation is far more simpler than that. Naruto thinks that he can't reveal his feelings to her if he isn't even good enough to keep his promises (interestingly enough, Sakura telling him to quit on his promise doesn't help this doubt complex at all). Sakura is simply unaware of what her feelings actually are (confirmed by the most recent databook). In essence, it's immaturity. Sakura needs to grow up and realize what her priorities are and Naruto needs to realize that keeping his promises has nothing to do with revealing how he feels. I'd say they also need to realize that Team 7 is the past (a past that wasn't even worth that much considering that the 3 shinobi have only been on like ONE real mission together before Sasuke was either training or in the hospital most of the time whereas Naruto was just out having adventures with Jiraiya . . . but in Kishi's mind, I suppose Team 7 was fully fleshed out ).

I do agree with what you said about Sakura and Naruto needing to grow up. Or rather, they need to actually be honest with one another about what they think and feel. Instead things are left to outside parties who want to help them, but end up hurting them. I don’t really agree they need to suddenly think team 7 isn’t worth saving. (whether or not Kishi made it obvious enough is another question)

The sad part is that this isn't a matter of limitations (what happened to that theme earlier on in part 1 about a loser being able to surpass an elite if he/she worked hard enough?). This is simply a matter of her being too lazy (or whatever the heck her problem is). Point is that she CAN do more than what she has already done for Naruto. Her self-doubt and chauvinistic author are her true weaknesses.

Actually, the greatest limitation might be Sakura’s mindset. Thinking she doesn’t do anything for Naruto isn’t what Naruto is thinking at all. He doesn’t think that he would love Sakura less because she doesn’t bring back Sasuke for him, or she doesn’t defeat his enemies for him. He loves her and feels close to her because she is someone who really wants acknowledgment too. Interestingly enough, it seems like she wants acknowledgment from Naruto, and yet doesn’t really realize it. It isn’t that he doesn’t acknowledge her, but maybe he feels it doesn’t need to be said. If Sakura worried less about the magnitude of what she can do, I think she would probably do a lot better. She is simply worrying and thinking about something that isn’t what Naruto would consider a problem.

Nah. Even with her "feelings" for Naruto, she can't do anything. The girl herself has asserted these sentiments.

I doubt this is the end for Sakura. Naruto does give her strength and does inspire her. There is plenty of reason to believe she will make a difference.

Back when she was punching out Sai for pushing Naruto's buttons? Yeah. Even to an extent when she punched him and gave him a hug? Yes. Ever since the chapter with the latter however, her character has been going downhill. Just after that chapter, she broke down and cried even with the mere mention of Sasuke and pointed out that it was Naruto who was cheering her up (not vice versa).

Going downhill, but once again this most likely isn’t the end of her development. Kishi can develop her towards good things if he wants, he has done it before. In a way she has switched her focus from Sasuke, to the two of them, and finally to Naruto. While she is struggling with herself, she is in the process of changing her own hopes and dreams and ideas for the future.

What words? She got knocked out before she could do a thing.

She told him she would save Sasuke for him

When?

When Naruto vowed not to use the kyuubi’s power.

Again, I'm a big NaruSaku fan, but I think this has been taken beyond it's intended context. Naruto doesn't want to cause ANYONE pain, whether it be Sakura, Hinata Gaara, Sasuke or anyone else who is closer to him. The purpose of this moment was by no means an indication in the advancement of the NaruSaku pairing.

But Team 7 is more important to Naruto. They will always be closer to his heart, just like Sasuke will always be that special to him. And why isn’t it advancement? It is one of those lines that is heavily argued against, but I have yet to see a good excuse for the whole situation being anything other than an extremely close to heart admission. The way it was drawn and the fact that it wasn’t completed speaks a lot, to me. I don’t like to think in the way of, oh kishi just wanted to cause a pairing war. I think he was trying to communicate something there, and obviously it is still something Sakura has not evaluated yet.

As I've implied, the manifesto is indeed an interesting read, but is no substitute for the actual manga. All being big fans of this pairing around here, we're all pretty biased and tend to exaggerate things beyond their actual intention. The manifesto does just that. Don't get me wrong; It has some good points, but when you compare the whole thing to what we've actually seen in these panels, it's inconsistent.

Yeah we are pretty biased. I argue against more NS fans than other pairing fans, but I don’t really go out of my way to argue opposing fandoms very often. And we also, as fans, could down-play the manga more than what is intended in hopes of not being biased. I’m not going to argue I’m not biased. But I’m not biased just because I am a pairing fan. Bias comes from all walks of life, including what we want to see out of a story, what scenes inspire us more, what scenes keep us reading, and what scenes touch our hearts.

In fan fiction? Yes. Off panel? Maybe (and that's a big MAYBE). On panel? Snow balls chance in hell maybe. We're nearly done with the manga and Sakura has already made her mind in simply "leaving it to Naruto." Sakura isn't even voicing a dissenting opinion about this "lets die together" garbage which he is spouting (which I had initially suspected she'd at least do during the last chapter). I'm telling you guys; if we get anything, it won't be much and will be up to interpretation (meaning you'll have a bunch of NaruHina/SasuSaku fanboys/fangirls saying "ha ha, i told u NaruSaku wouldnt happun!"

I think the hints towards a needed honesty with each other is pretty obvious. I don’t see why Kishi wouldn’t do this for them, unless their development suddenly doesn’t matter to his story (unlikely). You may feel down about Sakura’s development recently; I’ve been extremely negative about it myself and feel like she was used to make Naruto look better at the cost of her character. But at the same time, most fans are far too hard on her to begin with, which is not necessarily how the author intended things. In the end, I still think there is a better chance that Sakura will be of importance. You think we won’t get anything, but really that sounds extremely pessimistic. While I’m reluctant to put much hope in the situation because I’m sort of ticked at Kishi’s writing lately, I still have to admit I believe that things will turn around for Sakura.

Also, Sakura probably didn’t make a fuss about Naruto’s choice to die together because, first, her belief in Naruto was revived, and second, Naruto has obviously made his choice and she is respecting his wishes. And it’s not garbage, not to her. It’s incredibly inspiring and heartfelt words. His unwavering determination is something she really respected and wants for herself.

Anything is possible at this point, but your prediction is just too unlikely.

And something tells me that this confession business is going to be swept under the rug just like the business with Hinata (as pessimistic as I seem, I hope not).

It’s hard to believe after this whole mess, but you shouldn’t lose hope. If these characters mean anything to kishimoto, he will come through with them in the end. If not, then I would have no choice but to blame the author for a good story but poor plot choices. I have felt that kishi has lost some of his characters within his deep plot ideas. Not sure if he actually understands them as well as he did in part I, but perhaps he will prove me wrong on that.

[Insurrection]

I'm with Soupy on this one. Especially after reading your previous posts Kenny, you've seemed to embrace Sakura bashing as a fact since the chapter came out, this manga is far from over as you perceive it to be.

Edited by Insurrection, 20 March 2010 - 03:38 AM.

[ShippudenGirl]

Miss Soupy ftw!! Lmao x)

I agree with you. I don't know why people are losing so much faith in Sakura, I have myself, become a bit but I'm going to trust Kishimoto as a GOOD writter, not one who just ignores the Main characters (Which he has lately with Sakura) but he promised to make her a hero and dammit he will!!

[Kenny-kun]

^ Wow, that is a lot of negativity. I think Kishi intends for Naruto to have a romantic other, I doubt that Kishi will just end the manga with everything up in the air. I do believe he said that Shippuden will have romance.

Eh, this is a debate thread and it'd be awfully boring if it consisted of people who agreed with each other.

[ciardha]

Interestingly enough, it seems like she wants acknowledgment from Naruto, and yet doesn’t really realize it. It isn’t that he doesn’t acknowledge her, but maybe he feels it doesn’t need to be said. If Sakura worried less about the magnitude of what she can do, I think she would probably do a lot better. She is simply worrying and thinking about something that isn’t what Naruto would consider a problem.

I think Naruto has no clue that Sakura wants his acknowledgment. Remember, up to Sakura's confession he had no idea that she is in love with him either. Her acknowledgment of him in her confession had no effect on him, because he already saw her acknowledge him back in part 1. Sakura knows she's in love with Naruto, but yes, I agree she has no idea she wants his acknowledgment. In her confession to Naruto in 469 she gave to Naruto everything she needs from him, romantic love and acknowledgment.

[Kenny-kun]

It seems like the difference here is that you are looking at one moment in time (now) rather than an overall trend. In fact, Naruto has drawn strength from Sakura in the past. It happens, and just because it doesn’t happen right now doesn’t mean it wont in the future. Are we to think other members of team 7 that are not named Sasuke hold no importance to Naruto? Of course not, team 7 will always hold a higher importance to him than anyone else. Naruto draws fuel from Sasuke, he is motivated because of him. But can he actually draw strength from him? More like he draws strength from his own personal feelings and belief in his nindo.

I am looking at the overall trend. Looking at the manifesto is doing the opposite since it's based on information which has long since been outdated. Surely you cannot deny that many of its points are inconsistent with what we've learned after it was written.

I never said Naruto didn't draw strength from Sakura in the past (though if you are referring to when he saved her from Gaara, do you believe that he wouldn't have been able to gather strength had that been Kakashi, Sasuke or Iruka strapped down? What about him getting a vast portion of the kyuubi's strength thanks to Hinata?). It's just that this current Naruto does not. The best indication of this is when he said that he is saving Sasuke for himself. Beforehand, you'd have a valid argument on the basis that Naruto is being driven to save Sasuke (hence get stronger) because of his promise to Sakura, but that is simply no longer the case. At any rate, the manifesto was asserting that the romance between Naruto and Sakura is clear on the basis that they draw strength from one another. I was simply pointing out the flaws in this assertion.

Relationship does not automatically mean romantic.

The purpose of the manifesto is to make a case for the romance between both Naruto and Sakura. To insist that the relationship is not romantic moots the point of the entire essay as one can easily point out other relationships which Naruto possesses that aren't on the level of romance (his strongest being with Sasuke).

And I think, after Sakura’s confession, their relationship will change in some way.

Hopefully.

Even if it’s not romantic development, though it could receive that; relationships are no just static things.

It could (I don't deny this). All I'm saying is that it doesn't seem likely (at least not to the extent which most NaruSaku shippers like to believe).

I do agree with what you said about Sakura and Naruto needing to grow up. Or rather, they need to actually be honest with one another about what they think and feel. Instead things are left to outside parties who want to help them, but end up hurting them.

They need to. Unfortunately, there are a lot of things which I think and have thought "need" to happen about this series which haven't happened. Don't take this as me ridiculing the series. By no means do I wish to do this. In spite of its flaws, Naruto has been lots of fun over the years. That said, we should remember whom the target audience is as well as remember the genre. For a long time now, we've simply been expecting far too much.

Actually, the greatest limitation might be Sakura’s mindset. Thinking she doesn’t do anything for Naruto isn’t what Naruto is thinking at all. He doesn’t think that he would love Sakura less because she doesn’t bring back Sasuke for him, or she doesn’t defeat his enemies for him. He loves her and feels close to her because she is someone who really wants acknowledgment too. Interestingly enough, it seems like she wants acknowledgment from Naruto, and yet doesn’t really realize it. It isn’t that he doesn’t acknowledge her, but maybe he feels it doesn’t need to be said. If Sakura worried less about the magnitude of what she can do, I think she would probably do a lot better. She is simply worrying and thinking about something that isn’t what Naruto would consider a problem.

I don't think she thinks Naruto thinks she isn't doing anything for him. As sweet as your interpretation sounds, I'm afraid I cannot agree with it. Remember, Sai has already informed Sakura of Naruto's feelings for her. If she didn't already know he acknowledged her, she definitely knew then. To her, this isn't about what Naruto thinks, but what she thinks of herself.

I doubt this is the end for Sakura. Naruto does give her strength and does inspire her. There is plenty of reason to believe she will make a difference.

There are plenty of reasons to believe she will be on the sidelines in the end as well (this chapter being the key in making it seem that her being passive is OKAY ). Personally, I think Kishi will have her take out a fodder villain or have her stick to healing and call it a day.

Kishi can develop her towards good things if he wants, he has done it before.

My concern is things are getting close to wrapping up and Kishi has just established that it's OKAY for Sakura to acknowledge that she can't do anything. What you say is possible, though in terms of likelihood, things don't look good (hey, that rhymes! ).

In a way she has switched her focus from Sasuke, to the two of them, and finally to Naruto. While she is struggling with herself, she is in the process of changing her own hopes and dreams and ideas for the future.

I think her focus is on the the both of them (hence saying she'll have faith in them). Giving Naruto credit where credit is due in does not dispute this.

She told him she would save Sasuke for him

My mistake. Thanks for the correction.

But Team 7 is more important to Naruto.

The idea of team 7 being together again one day? That's debatable. In terms of individual interest, I'm pretty sure his bond with Iruka beats his bond with Kakashis. All besides the point though. The author of the manifesto was attempting to use the scene of Naruto being disturbed about what he had done to Sakura while kyuubi as evidence of the advancement of NaruSaku. I responded by pointing out that he'd be just as concerned about anyone else's safety as well as him being the cause of it. If you don't believe me, lets take hinata for example. As soon as Naruto was no longer in kyuubi mode, he was immediately showed similar concern with hinata. Should this be taken as evidence of the advancement of NaruHina?

And why isn’t it advancement?

Because it's in Naruto's character to place concern over those who have been harmed or are in harms way. This applies to far more characters than just Sakura.

I don’t see why Kishi wouldn’t do this for them, unless their development suddenly doesn’t matter to his story (unlikely).

I can think of a few good reasons as to why Kishi not only wouldn't do this for them, but would also make the ending ambiguous all together in terms of pairings.

1) He profits off of this series' success and also wishes to make a prequel. There are a great deal of fans whose interest in the series revolves mainly around the pairings. Sinking one fandom's ship could prove to be a thorn at his side whereas an ambiguous ending (which can be interpreted in several ways) leaves fans more satisfied.

2) The romance isn't really crucial to the plot. This is about Naruto saving the world and stopping Sasuke. The true identity of his soul mate holds no bearing on this.

You may feel down about Sakura’s development recently

Downright annoyed to be honest, but this has also inclined me to start looking at the series more objectively and measuring it for what it's worth.

But at the same time, most fans are far too hard on her to begin with

I'm not hard on her per se as I recognize how great of a character she could potentially be. I'm annoyed at the way she is being written.

Also, Sakura probably didn’t make a fuss about Naruto’s choice to die together because, first, her belief in Naruto was revived, and second, Naruto has obviously made his choice and she is respecting his wishes.

There ought to be a limit as to what kind of wishes she is willing to respect. Naruto wants to keep going after Sasuke regardless of what everyone else thinks? Fine. Naruto is willing to give up becoming hokage? Also fine. Naruto is wanting to die? Not okay. Kakashi was right on the money in the previous chapter when he said Sasuke is not worth going down with. Naruto himself thinks that killing Sasuke will save him, so what's wrong with not accepting death as an outcome? Absolutely nothing. She shouldn't be willing to let him off himself. It'd be one thing if Naruto were to suggest something along the lines of "Even if I die trying", but what he is saying here is that he will die if Sasuke fights him.

If these characters mean anything to kishimoto, he will come through with them in the end.

I have no doubt that these characters (excluding Sakura of course. ) mean something to Kishimoto. The catch is that what they mean to him is different from what they mean to us. It is only after seeing these recent chapters that I've finally come to realize how much.

[narukunsakuchan]

you know I thought about it, and what if karin could be the catalyst to finally hear from sakuras mouth where she stands with sasuke.

We know she wants to save him, and that she at least loves him as a friend. And I know that we can see hints being thrown left and right that she gave up her romantic notions, but it would be awesome to hear it from the horses mouth. At least I would like that to happen.

[Kenny-kun]

I think Naruto has no clue that Sakura wants his acknowledgment. Remember, up to Sakura's confession he had no idea that she is in love with him either. Her acknowledgment of him in her confession had no effect on him, because he already saw her acknowledge him back in part 1. Sakura knows she's in love with Naruto, but yes, I agree she has no idea she wants his acknowledgment. In her confession to Naruto in 469 she gave to Naruto everything she needs from him, romantic love and acknowledgment.

Again, Sakura already knows that Naruto acknowledges her (via Sai). So what you say about Sakura wanting his acknowledgment cannot possibly be true.

And I don't know about Sakura knowing she is in love with Naruto (based on the databook). Where did you get that idea? Sai stated that she said all of that stuff to ease the pain she has caused Naruto to bear. So in essence, Naruto was correct about her lying. That said, don't take this as proof that she doesn't love Naruto. It's simply as the databook says; she doesn't know/understand her true feelings.

[Jenskott]

I really don't want getting entangled in a debate, but there are several points I would like adressing:

The purpose of the manifesto is to make a case for the romance between both Naruto and Sakura. To insist that the relationship is not romantic moots the point of the entire essay as one can easily point out other relationships which Naruto possesses that aren't on the level of romance (his strongest being with Sasuke).

No. In that paragraph Mizura was stating his relationship was growing and strengthening. It doesn't undermine the essay at all because she was making a case for the NaruSaku being a GOOD match, not for it being already canon, and for it being a DEVELOPING romance. Stating their relationship is growing and strengthening, even if they aren't yet together, helps to prove that point of view.

She wasn't telling they were already together, nor their relationship wasn't or wasn't becoming romantic. She was telling their relationship -and their common affection- was growing and becoming something stronger (in case Naruto, a more mature love; in Sakura's care, love).

I can think of a few good reasons as to why Kishi not only wouldn't do this for them, but would also make the ending ambiguous all together in terms of pairings.

1) He profits off of this series' success and also wishes to make a prequel. There are a great deal of fans whose interest in the series revolves mainly around the pairings. Sinking one fandom's ship could prove to be a thorn at his side whereas an ambiguous ending (which can be interpreted in several ways) leaves fans more satisfied.

2) The romance isn't really crucial to the plot. This is about Naruto saving the world and stopping Sasuke. The true identity of his soul mate holds no bearing on this.

I disagree:

1 ) There are NOT a great deal of fans whose interest in the series revolves around pairings. Don't let the online fandom blind you. The most of Naruto fans don't log in boards or care about pairings. And the most of the shippers wouldn't stop reading the series if one pairing they don't like becomes canon. The obsessed "I will quit the series if A and B don't get together" shippers are a very tiny percentage (but very loud. And their loudness can deceive about their numbers)- of Naruto fandom, and the most of them don't purchase the manga (they read it ilegally).

Moreover, Kishimoto has stated he knows nothing about fandom overseas.

So why should he feel concerned about those fans? He don't even knows they exist.

2 ) The romance isn't crucial to the plot. However, Kishimoto has kept the steady growing and development of Naruto/Sakura's relationship throughout the entire manga, and he has spent a hell of time and scenes developing it. He didn't need drawing Naruto revealing Sakura he was a jinchuuriki, yet he did (whereas he didn't draw Naruto revealing it to another people. And yes, Temari and Kakashi were there, but he knew Kakashi knew, and he was talking to Sakura specifically). He didn't need drawing Sakura gripping her chest when Naruto had became a four-tailed fox, but he did. He didn't need drawing Yamato hinting on Sakura's feelings, but he did. He didn't need drawing Sakura willing feeding Naruto with a sultry grin, but he did. He didn't need drawing Naruto blushing when she tried that and complaining because other people had ruined the moment, but he did. He didn't need drawing Sakura hugging Naruto in front of the entire town, but he did. He didn't need drawing Sai restating Naruto's feelings, but he did. He didn't need drawing Sai explaining it to Sakura, but he did. He didn't need drawing Sakura's confession, but he did...

And those are only the Part II scenes I recall instantly!

Don't misunderstand me. I think an ambiguous ending, pairingwise, is absolutely posible. But a NS ending is a very real possibility. Naruto/Sakura's relationship has been an ongoing plot since the beginning (whereas Hinata/Naruto's relationship hasn't been. It was a secondary character having an one-sided crush on the main character). And I am not telling that because I am a biased shipper. I thought that since I read the first chapters and throughout the entire Part I and Part II beginning. And I didn't become a shipper until the second arc of Part II.

Gee, I didn't even was expecting a hug in chapter 450. Or a confession in chapter 469. Yet they happened.

Downright annoyed to be honest, but this has also inclined me to start looking at the series more objectively and measuring it for what it's worth.

No. You aren't looking at the series more objectively. You are looking at it more NEGATIVELY because you are downright annoyed (your words, not mine), so you are labeling off any development, even if that development is objectively positive.

I am not trying being confrontational or mean or rude to you. But that is the truth. Someone who denies any romantic development, even in scenes it is blatant, isn't more objective than someone who states: "they have greeted at each other! It is a romantic moment!".

And no, I am not being overly -or blindly- optimistic here. Kishimoto has done things I have enjoyed and I have disliked in the entire series (including the last arc). But he has never done anything has forced me to consider stopping reading. I simply read the story, accepting it how it is, and don't let the bad things get me bothered or annoyed because it is only one story. And I tend to ignore fan complains because I want forming my own opinion.

The fact most of those fans have complained about things they thought he was doing but he shouldn't do (and then it turned out to he wasn't going to do them) or things they thought he wasn't doing and he should do (and then he did them), or about things they thought he should do (but he had no reason to)... reinforced my position to disregard online complains, read and appreciate the series because it is and forming my own opinion, whether it is positive or negative.

Personally I am more concerned about Sasuke's fate, because I am quite certain Kishimoto will not resolve that subplot in a fashion I like, than about Naruto and Sakura not becoming a couple, or about Sakura's future role.

Nonetheless, I don't let it gets me. It is only a manga. Whatever it happens, it happens. It would not be the first story I have read got worse at the end. And it would not be the last one.

I have no doubt that these characters (excluding Sakura of course. ) mean something to Kishimoto.

I guess that emoticon means you are just kidding... but Kishimoto himself has defended Sakura from her haters and stated she is the heroine. And you tell she doesn't mean anything to him? Only because he hasn't done with her what you wanted in the last chapters?

And IMO, fans are harder on Sakura than Kishimoto. Including Sakura fans.

The catch is that what they mean to him is different from what they mean to us. It is only after seeing these recent chapters that I've finally come to realize how much.

They are his characters. They can mean different things to him than to us, but they will always mean more to him than to us. And he can want to convey or display character strength or test a character's mettle in other ways.

Again, Sakura already knows that Naruto acknowledges her (via Sai). So what you say about Sakura wanting his acknowledgment cannot possibly be true.

Ciardha and Soupy have SAID Sakura DOESN'T know she wants it.

And even if she knows she wants it and has it, she still can want it.

And I don't remember Sai telling Naruto acknowledges her. Please, may you show me the pannel?

And I don't know about Sakura knowing she is in love with Naruto (based on the databook). Where did you get that idea?

Huh? From the manga? From the scene where she says it? Or from the scene where she gets mad at Naruto and states: "Anything like that? Do you think it is easy for a girl come all this way to confess her feelings? Of course I would come. Don't tell me what I feel or not. Only I know what I am thinking"?

Do you rely on the databook more than in the manga?

Sai stated that she said all of that stuff to ease the pain she has caused Naruto to bear.

He also said: "She has moved over Sasuke and she has chosen you. She was thinking only of you and I believe you realized that".

And Sai stating that doesn't mean she wasn't in love with him or meaning it. It means she was trying lessening Naruto's pain. It doesn't mean she was lying.

Her feelings can be totally sincere -and Sai never told they were NOT- and she can perfectly think revealing them to Naruto would lessen his pain.

So in essence, Naruto was correct about her lying.

No. Naruto never said that and he never accused her of that. He said she was deluding herself about Sasuke not meaning anything to her. What she was. But no in the way he believed.

He also realized she was hiding something (but he was wrong about what she was hiding). So he was distrustful.

And again, nobody said or implied she was lying about her feelings.

That said, don't take this as proof that she doesn't love Naruto. It's simply as the databook says; she doesn't know/understand her true feelings.

If manga and the databook state different facts, I trust the manga.

Or Kishimoto stating she was being HONEST.

And the databook doesn't tell she doesn't know/understand her true feelings. The databook tells she isn't sure about their nature.

And exactly that was what I thought for one while, long before reading the databook. I thought she had fallen in love with Naruto but she was unsure about her feelings. But I think that is no longer the case. I think she has finally realized she loves Naruto and, whatever she can feel towards Sasuke, she has chosen Naruto. The manga pretty much states that.

Of course, I might be wrong.

Nevertheless, the databook doesn't cover the last one hundred eighty chapters. So that piece of information is probably outdated. It is possible it was true back then but the situation has changed in the meantime.

Again, I repeat: you aren't looking at this objectively. You are looking at everything negatively because you are annoyed at the manga and cause it you are being pessimistic about everything. You aren't being objective. You are being so biased like any shipper.

That is all. I hope I haven't offended you. It isn't and never was my intention.

[ShippudenGirl]

Great job, Jenskott! I completely agree with you and Miss Soupy, I don't think I could add more exept have faith people!

[pinkheartsyellowstars]

Again, Sakura already knows that Naruto acknowledges her (via Sai). So what you say about Sakura wanting his acknowledgment cannot possibly be true.

I think the only thing Naruto acknowledged of Sakura is being part of team 7, that loves Sasuke.
Because Sai had seen Naruto being surprised from the confession, and his reaction, Sai concluded Sakura is doing that because she loves him. Naruto did hear about this, and made those flashbacks.
But from the recent chapters, Sakura's aim is not on Sasuke behalf but for the team 7. and she will believed both to them because Naruto is fighting a cause, and Sasuke too. BUT, Sakura has been drive by Naruto inspiring speech, which in turns to be her enlightenment.

Anyhow guys, the arguments like Sakura loves Sasuke romantically and Naruto a loving brother to her is still in present. I made a thread back at NF, which made me a ?flame baiter" and accused me for being denial.
Consequently, I was surprised romantic implications on SS is being presented and the friendshiop factor goes for the Naruto and Sakura relationship. I think they just reasoned out with ths kind of statements

Sakura loves Sasuke. get over it. Sakura treat Naruto as a loving brother.

The one thing factor that I really wanted to hear from them is, "IT IS ONE SIDED", but i was disappointed.

Edited by pinkheartsyellowstars, 20 March 2010 - 03:33 PM.

[ShippudenGirl]

There in as much denial as ever, they're just embarrassing themselves, I'm sure sisters don't flirt with brothers. And brothers aren't attracted to sisters, wow. And they think were in denial? What ever happened to Sasuke trying to kill Sakura? Really now?

[Miss Soupy]

I am looking at the overall trend. Looking at the manifesto is doing the opposite since it's based on information which has long since been outdated. Surely you cannot deny that many of its points are inconsistent with what we've learned after it was written.

But the major foundation for Sakura becoming interested in Naruto is her gaining a close blond and relationship with him. The overall trend has been Sakura becoming close to Naruto. I don't treat the manifesto as end-all proof that NS must happen, but rather it helps highlight parts of their relationship that are positive, as well as actions taken that could indicate something more is possible.

I never said Naruto didn't draw strength from Sakura in the past (though if you are referring to when he saved her from Gaara, do you believe that he wouldn't have been able to gather strength had that been Kakashi, Sasuke or Iruka strapped down? What about him getting a vast portion of the kyuubi's strength thanks to Hinata?). It's just that this current Naruto does not. The best indication of this is when he said that he is saving Sasuke for himself. Beforehand, you'd have a valid argument on the basis that Naruto is being driven to save Sasuke (hence get stronger) because of his promise to Sakura, but that is simply no longer the case. At any rate, the manifesto was asserting that the romance between Naruto and Sakura is clear on the basis that they draw strength from one another. I was simply pointing out the flaws in this assertion.

Actually, one moment comes to mind in part II, when they met and lost Sasuke and Sakura was the one trying to cheer up Naruto (even though she herself was crying). She offered him strength in the form of her hopeful words. Gaining strength does not have to be something big enough to defeat an enemy; it is the little ways in which they support each other that are touching. (At least to me) However, at this point Naruto is beginning to act like Hokage material. He must depend on himself because it is his own dreams that are at risk if he fails. While everyone believes in him, ultimately it is his own battle. I think that is what Sakura is realizing. This doesn't mean she will have no involvement, but that when it comes to Sasuke, Naruto needs to be the one facing him. Only he is strong enough to face that deep hatred. I don't mind if Sakura doesn't have as big of a part. Because Naruto has chosen this, she is not putting burdens on him, which is what she wanted to put a stop to.

The purpose of the manifesto is to make a case for the romance between both Naruto and Sakura. To insist that the relationship is not romantic moots the point of the entire essay as one can easily point out other relationships which Naruto possesses that aren't on the level of romance (his strongest being with Sasuke). Hopefully. It could (I don't deny this). All I'm saying is that it doesn't seem likely (at least not to the extent which most NaruSaku shippers like to believe).

Mostly it is to show their development and then to explain why it is possible this pairing could come to be. Even if you are not a fan of the pairing, you could read it and appreciate how these characters have grown closer. I think Jenskott discusses this more in depth though.

They need to. Unfortunately, there are a lot of things which I think and have thought "need" to happen about this series which haven't happened. Don't take this as me ridiculing the series. By no means do I wish to do this. In spite of its flaws, Naruto has been lots of fun over the years. That said, we should remember whom the target audience is as well as remember the genre. For a long time now, we've simply been expecting far too much.

Actually, I think kishimoto deals with things that are quite deep, which is surprising given the target audience. In comparison to other shounen I have read, Naruto touches on some very big issues and is quite complicated. It also has much more complicated romance than other manga I read. Sometimes I feel this was a mistake, especially when romance is handled as awkwardly as it has been lately. But no, I don't believe the target audience will hold kishimoto back from dealing with what he wants to write. It seems more like an excuse.

I don't think she thinks Naruto thinks she isn't doing anything for him. As sweet as your interpretation sounds, I'm afraid I cannot agree with it. Remember, Sai has already informed Sakura of Naruto's feelings for her. If she didn't already know he acknowledged her, she definitely knew then. To her, this isn't about what Naruto thinks, but what she thinks of herself.

Love does not equal acknowledgment. Here she wants acknowledgment as a ninja to feel like she has done worthy things. And yes, it is about what Sakura thinks, because she thinks her actions unworthy when Naruto would not think so. However, feeling so unworthy for someone shows how much they mean to them. When she was in love with Sasuke, she felt unworthy of him (especially since he put her down). Now she has transferred that feeling towards Naruto. It is a flaw for her character, but perhaps it indicates who now is more important in her life. *shrugs*

There are plenty of reasons to believe she will be on the sidelines in the end as well (this chapter being the key in making it seem that her being passive is OKAY ). Personally, I think Kishi will have her take out a fodder villain or have her stick to healing and call it a day.

We'll see. I can't really say because it would be pure speculation. Still, I'm going to hope for something indicating she will be legendary (because obviously the three will be remembered just as the sanin were).

My concern is things are getting close to wrapping up and Kishi has just established that it's OKAY for Sakura to acknowledge that she can't do anything. What you say is possible, though in terms of likelihood, things don't look good (hey, that rhymes! ).

I think her focus is on the the both of them (hence saying she'll have faith in them). Giving Naruto credit where credit is due in does not dispute this.

She can't do anything as far as those two are concerned, but doesn't mean she can't do anything at all. Hopefully Sakura will be find her own way to help, which will use her talents to a greater extent. She doesn't have to be on Sasuke and Naruto's level to make a difference. But if you don't believe it's likely, that is your opinion and I haven't seen significant evidence to share it.

And as far as focus goes, I was indicating that the major focus had switched, not that it was her only focus. I believe her major focus is Naruto, and while she hopes for a happy ending for them all, she is not going to be chasing Sasuke anymore. It may be indication that she is moving on from him, the fact that she won't be fighting for his redemption herself.

The idea of team 7 being together again one day? That's debatable. In terms of individual interest, I'm pretty sure his bond with Iruka beats his bond with Kakashis. All besides the point though. The author of the manifesto was attempting to use the scene of Naruto being disturbed about what he had done to Sakura while kyuubi as evidence of the advancement of NaruSaku. I responded by pointing out that he'd be just as concerned about anyone else's safety as well as him being the cause of it. If you don't believe me, lets take hinata for example. As soon as Naruto was no longer in kyuubi mode, he was immediately showed similar concern with hinata. Should this be taken as evidence of the advancement of NaruHina?

I didn't say team 7 would be together again. I said team 7 is closest to Naruto's heart. And I am not arguing that Naruto wouldn't care for anyone else in that situation, nor am I saying it meant NS. I was talking about Yamato's unfinished words towards Sakura when she felt like a failure. Since we already know Naruto loves Sakura, I don't see why we need to prove his actions were due to romance XD

I can think of a few good reasons as to why Kishi not only wouldn't do this for them, but would also make the ending ambiguous all together in terms of pairings.

1) He profits off of this series' success and also wishes to make a prequel. There are a great deal of fans whose interest in the series revolves mainly around the pairings. Sinking one fandom's ship could prove to be a thorn at his side whereas an ambiguous ending (which can be interpreted in several ways) leaves fans more satisfied.

2) The romance isn't really crucial to the plot. This is about Naruto saving the world and stopping Sasuke. The true identity of his soul mate holds no bearing on this.

1) Kishi will write whatever he wants. I doubt the author is going to be swayed because of the public. If this were the case, he would be writing NaruSasu as the final pairing, or at least SasuSaku. Neither of these look likely.
2) Romance isn't crucial, but it is involved enough to deserve a clear ending. He admitted he wished to make one of the pairings happen in the end.

Downright annoyed to be honest, but this has also inclined me to start looking at the series more objectively and measuring it for what it's worth.

I'm not hard on her per se as I recognize how great of a character she could potentially be. I'm annoyed at the way she is being written.

I don't think I have honestly loved a chapter since the end of the Pain arc XD Call me crazy, but I still have to hold hope for Sakura. I've been a Sakura fan for this long...I suppose I can have hope for a little long *sigh*

There ought to be a limit as to what kind of wishes she is willing to respect. Naruto wants to keep going after Sasuke regardless of what everyone else thinks? Fine. Naruto is willing to give up becoming hokage? Also fine. Naruto is wanting to die? Not okay. Kakashi was right on the money in the previous chapter when he said Sasuke is not worth going down with. Naruto himself thinks that killing Sasuke will save him, so what's wrong with not accepting death as an outcome? Absolutely nothing. She shouldn't be willing to let him off himself. It'd be one thing if Naruto were to suggest something along the lines of "Even if I die trying", but what he is saying here is that he will die if Sasuke fights him.

I can't be positive, but it sounds like you don't agree with Naruto's '3rd choice'. I actually did like his speech, so I can't say I would want Sakura to just disagree with it XD And what he said was, if it happens that I can't win then we end up killing each other and I won't have any regrets. It isn't that he is giving up, but that he is acknowledging the possibility and that he is prepared for it. Naruto finally sounds like hokage material.

I have no doubt that these characters (excluding Sakura of course. ) mean something to Kishimoto. The catch is that what they mean to him is different from what they mean to us. It is only after seeing these recent chapters that I've finally come to realize how much.

Daaaw, Kishi cares about Sakura too. He might just not know how to handle writing a female

[Jenskott]

Sakura loves Sasuke. get over it. Sakura treat Naruto as a loving brother.

Sakura loves Naruto. Get over it. Sakura treats Sasuke like a menacing traitor.

Sasuke doesn't love Sakura. Get over it. Sasuke treats Sakura as a nuisance to destroy.

A loving brother... Seriously are they using that argument YET? There is nothing to support it and plenty canon evidence and proof to disprove it.

It is so tiresome!

[Hopestar]

SS & NH are in denial and are contend with that. Then you are got some that are in the fear stage as they are having a panic attack & quickly trying to bash us with useless material. Next is the rare minority which is self-pity stage. These are depress and depending how far they are may have stop reading the manga altogether. Finally are the special rarity which is acceptance, forth they have come to accept that their pairing is no more & NS is mostly likely to be canon so they find comfort in fanfics.

[Derock]

Sakura loves Naruto. Get over it. Sakura treats Sasuke like a menacing traitor.

Sasuke doesn't love Sakura. Get over it. Sasuke treats Sakura as a nuisance to destroy.

A loving brother... Seriously are they using that argument YET? There is nothing to support it and plenty canon evidence and proof to disprove it.

It is so tiresome!

I don't know why on earth they kept using that argument.

Unless that specific character says so in the manga that "I love this specific person as a sibling!", this is a very invalid argument. And it never applies towards Naruto <-> Sakura, unless one of them says so which I very doubt that will happen. The only relationship that has some sort of sibling relationship is NaruSasu.