54216 replies to this topic

[VanitasDS76491]

Which I think is a bad view that Naruto has this damn naive idealism of how the world works thinking he can talk to bad guys on how wrong they are in what they do and to make them all think the way that he thinks as well that you can all hold hands and sing a song get rid of all your troubles.
 
I mean its not just that, its also how Naruto thinks we should all forgive each other no matter the crime that has been done to someone and the pain that the victim has gone through, I mean would any of you forgive someone that killed your child to Naruto messed up mind then yes you do as Naruto would say they were in a dark place.
 
Think about it we all know what Gato did in Wave, but you just add in a sad back story on how his father killed his mother and Naruto would bend over backwards for the guy, and all because a sob story on how his past was hard. Looking at it more and more you can see Naruto just remained a child in his own little world The Land of Iron when he cried like a little kitten was proof of that that he couldn't take how they really should have handled Sasuke the Raikage said no and Sasuke would be hunted down and killed for the crimes that he did.

Ya that wouldn't work as an example out in Vegas someone just committed a mass shooting that killed 59 people at a show. It's tragic and I'm not making fun of this. But how would naruto Handel this situation.

[thelordofspace72]

I won't even get into the flaw of calling NH and SS "forced". At the very least, the former was heavily foreshadowed. Narratively, objectively speaking, no, you cannot force something that was foreshadowed and developed. 

 

okay then. What position do you want from this nonsense?

 

I will never believe what you say. Do you want to say that NH + SS is real love and not "crush" as in the NS relationship?

Edited by thelordofspace72, 04 October 2017 - 03:43 PM.

[NarutoUzumaki01]

 

okay then. What position do you want from this nonsense?

 

I will never believe what you say. Do you want to say that NH + SS is real love and not "crush" as in the NS relationship?

 

Just stop, that person lives in her own world.

[thelordofspace72]

Just stop, that person lives in her own world.

I will lose my mind because this

[NarutoUzumaki01]

This is silly. I'm just defending canon facts. 

So it come to THAT...

[Kagomaru]

 

 

This is silly. I'm just defending canon facts.

 

Oh honey, we both know that's not true.

[thelordofspace72]

I Will stop believe in love. Because it's all fake in this world.narusaku was about 10 years of my life. There's no justice.

[NarutoUzumaki01]

Really? What exactly have I said that is not a canon fact, and what is the correct canon fact? The debate as far as I am aware at it's core was a an argument about retconning that spiraled out into smaller, almost petty clashes of interpreting of panels supporting or not supporting that. 

Keep calling your interpratations and opinon whatever you want. I don't know, maybe you have a crush on this forum, or you misunderstand something, but you can't change facts 

[Yyubie]

This is silly. I'm just defending canon facts. 

[HalfDemonInuyasha]

"I won't even get into the flaw of calling NH and SS "forced". At the very least, the former was heavily foreshadowed. Narratively, objectively speaking, no, you cannot force something that was foreshadowed and developed."


And yet Analyzer still refuses to post actual in-universe panels from the manga itself to prove this while others have done so to support their facts; still only providing biased opinion and personal interpretation and calling them "facts". Probably because the only panels she could provide are things that not only are the same things other NH supporters have done (the confession itself and hand-holding), but ones that have long since been easily torn apart by logic.

[NarutoUzumaki01]

We can't change facts. I am -defending- the established facts as either well executed, making sense, or not a retcon in the debate. What fact have I brought forward that was indeed false and clashes with the conclusion of the series? 

 

Ignoring the played up melodrama, there was no entitlement for an NS conclusion. The implication of injustice is odd. 

Don't bring "we", only you doing switching up in here.

Edited by NarutoUzumaki01, 04 October 2017 - 07:32 PM.

[NarutoUzumaki01]

 

That is what you claim. Yet you're avoiding the question of providing proof of this claim. 

Well, you know, it's a game that two can play, you've been doing this whole time.

[Yojeveka]

When you-know-who eventually gets banned or finally stop with this eternal I'm right-Y'all wrong nonsense, I'm hoping for a big party in plug.dj. Anyone up? 

 

Jokes aside -or not?- What's the use of debating? I mean, Kishimoto is right. HE'S ALWAYS right. He's the freaking creator! It's not like he's a human being who can make mistakes like adding plotholes, shoe-horned characters, OOC fest, crappy endgame shippings or something like that, right?  
 

[TheFirstEvil100]

"I won't even get into the flaw of calling NH and SS "forced". At the very least, the former was heavily foreshadowed. Narratively, objectively speaking, no, you cannot force something that was foreshadowed and developed."


And yet Analyzer still refuses to post actual in-universe panels from the manga itself to prove this while others have done so to support their facts; still only providing biased opinion and personal interpretation and calling them "facts". Probably because the only panels she could provide are things that not only are the same things other NH supporters have done (the confession itself and hand-holding), but ones that have long since been easily torn apart by logic.

The proof she would need is them having sex with each other, but then again she will say even that does not count.

 

just looked at SS for proof Sakura is in a loveless marrage something Hinata fans get off on, as I sadly saw one post saying "kitten got what was coming for always hitting Naruto happy she is all alone."

 

Yeah this is why NH should not have become canon and Hinata should have died, hence why I kill her in my stories now.

[Shadow Wolf]

The proof she would need is them having sex with each other, but then again she will say even that does not count.
 
just looked at SS for proof Sakura is in a loveless marrage something Hinata fans get off on, as I sadly saw one post saying "kitten got what was coming for always hitting Naruto happy she is all alone."
 
Yeah this is why NH should not have become canon and Hinata should have died, hence why I kill her in my stories now.

What I recall from NaruHina:

-She offered him to cheat...
-An ointment of sorts that I can't remember it doing anything
-Making him go into 8-tails mode (keeping in mind that Naruto didn't want to use Kyuubi to hurt others after the events of him hurting Sakura)
-Naruto saying something about not being wanted to be rescued twice (wait... When did she save you again?)
-Her saying that SHE wanted to be with Naruto (while Sakura wanted to help HIM)
-Commenting on Naruto's big hand.. (I won't even justify that)
-Tripping on a rock and...
-Falling into a Genjutsu which showed LIES

And now I hear of this Ramen record...

See, here's the thing: if NS was canon, we would not need a movie nor these forced facts (like the ramen record), to justify why they are together.

I didn't need a movie in Full Metal Panic!, nor in Love Hina, nor in pretty much any other anime I have seen to know why a certain couple ended up together. Hence why these event in Naruto feel so forced. In fact, why would I need to try and diminish other fandoms (fans who ship other couples) when my "ship" is canon.

In the end, all of these events post-698 plus all the reactions from both fans and the author himself will make me stand by NS.

[sushi.]

Had Minato not arrived in Naruto's mind he would've killed villagers and after finally trusting him they'd have a reason to hate him.

I don't hate Hinata for this because she didn't know, but that's also why she should've never challenged Pain, she did so without a plan or back-up. What happened was very convenient so I don't get the idea of her being his savior at all.. It was also unintentional on her side, I doubt she purposely tried to wake the kyuubi inside him by getting herself hurt. But that was the only way he could ever get out of that situation. Conclusion is she didn't try to save him at all and it was only because Hinata, Kurama and Minato's involvements were so unconsciously dependent on one another that everyone got out scratch free.

[ThroughWithLove]

It' would be, but I did lay out justification. That he is at a point where he does want acknolwedgement, has a rival that has all of this acknowledgement, and a team-mate that directly craves it, along with the Last that canonly states this, it's not "unjustified", nor "equivocation", nor "misleading". 

 

He wants acknowledgment, but Naruto's relationship is never presented from that standpoint and the The Last most certainly doesn't characterize it in that fashion either. It talks about Naruto only saying he loved as a pretense for his rivalry with Sasuke and that his feelings towards Hinata were the real thing; the film makes zero comments on what he feels or wants from Sakura other than implicitly suggesting it's not real. These are interjections you have added. Acknowledgment is something Naruto wants from everybody, romance or not and is never given the rivalry pretense. Therefore, equivocation fallacy.  To put it another way, Naruto may still love ramen, but that doesn't mean he's actively cheating on Hinata.

 

 

Except here, you narrative fail to see just how much Sasuke -drives- NS. Prior to the bench scene, Sasuke is tied up. Post bench scene, Naruto wants to make him look worse. Both are literally shoving Sasuke out of the way, his competition, to get Sakura. Sasuke -drives- the POL, even drives the entirity of the Land of Iron Arc., and he is a shared goal of both Sakura and Sasuke, though these latter two don't directly address the love competition, more as a reference to how much he drives NS. 

 

Naruto does legitimately want to do things for Sakura, such as bring Sasuke back, protect her, etc. This is not being debated at all. To what depth and context can -only- be understood once the veil is lifted on things, I.E., the story is complete. You use the databooks which is great, but fail to round up everything with the latter material.  And that is the flaw with your entire interpretation. You -must- reconcile latter material as retconning your interpretation, because there is no toher way for your interpretation to hold otherwise. 

 

Sasuke drives NS no more than Kakashi drives ObiRin. The mere existence of a love triangle is never in itself indicative of one of the members having illegitimate feelings in the first place. Kaoru may feel threatened by Megumi, but it does not mean she does NOT love Kenshin. Kagome may feel threatened by Kikyo, but it does not mean she does NOT love Inuyasha. Ryoko may feel threatened by Ayeka, but it does not mean she does NOT love Tenchi. We could go on and on and on and on and on. You are asking us to apply a set of standards that do not get applied to any other series all for the sake of acknowledging  what is in essence glorified fanfiction.

 

Naruto not only legitimately wants to do things for Sakura, but has legitimate feelings for her. We see this from the panel where he nearly kisses her, we see this based on how intuitively understands her deepest desires, we see this based on how he reacts when he sees her throwing her arms around Sasuke in the hospital room and we see this based on his refusal to explain to her how he feels. If Kishimoto wanted to highlight a competition, these instances would not exist. All of these instances go well beyond a meager desire to get the better of Sasuke in a competition which Sasuke is not even partaking in. IfA so-called competition Naruto has other means of winning besides simply pursuing Sakura. Like the legions of other retcons in this manga, it cannot be reconciled. Naruto is a flawed manga. Masashi Kishimoto is a flawed mangaka. 

 

 

What's asinine is not taking in later details to reconcile with previous material. 

 

We have . . . your desire to hit the reply button for eternity notwithstanding.

 

You gave a claim. You did not substantiate it. 

 

Style over substance fallacy. Style = You're a sophist. Substance =Premises 1, Premise 2, Premise 3, Premise 4, Premise 5 -----> Conclusion. Focus on the substance instead of asking me to prove whether you're truly a mealy-mouthed phony deceitful primrose popinjay . 

 

 

Regardless, it's a P.O.V. thing. We did not know Sakura was definitely as readers until a later point. We -could- retroactively say this was the point, just not definitely. That's my point. Next.   

 

 

 

 

Again, you are making an argument from ignorance.  If a suggestion is put forward in a story and no counter-suggestion is ever given (of which I would've had welcomed) and nothing is ever put forward about the credibility of the one who made the suggestion (i.e. Naruto's P.O.V), that suggestion holds. Otherwise, we can easily reach all sorts of conclusions. Many of which I see you repeatedly contest in other threads.

 

Here are the facts: Sakura loved Sasuke. This is canon. Karin also loved Sasuke. This is also canon. Quit trying to disregard canon when it suits you.

 

 

Opinion =/= Argument ,remember? 

 

 

Style over substance. I gave an argument. You didn't contest it. That's a fact. If you don't like that fact, simply address my argument. Or don't. No skin off my nose either way.

 

 

On the last paragraph, you still aren't getting it. Your inability to draw to read an answer that was definitely nothing about "randomness" is either because you do not want to reconcile another idea that draws flaws into your own foundation, or you are gravely misinterpreting diction. 

 

 

Look, if you don't have a counter-argument, don't bother. I'm fully aware of your ability and desire to hit the reply button ad infinitum (a trait I'll probably take a respite from testing within a few posts). I know all the tricks of the trade, so the mealy mouthed verbal diarrhea routine has no effect on me. We'll try this one last time: If Naruto was not speaking at random, why would he bring up the POAL in response to Sai asking about his feelings? Don't try to change the subject to what Naruto said later, don't try telling me "Naruto was simply asserting a fact and asking a question" and don't try any of the other intellectual dishonest efforts you've repeatedly exercised to avoid this simple question. Just answer the question. If you can give an honest answer here . . . who knows? I might even humor that revisionist history / verbal diarrhea you gave us in the fake confession thread (though obviously not entertain it in that thread). Lets start here though. Prove to me that you are capable of having a legitimate intellectually honest conversation. Ball is in your court.

Edited by ThroughWithLove, 04 October 2017 - 10:23 PM.

[Catra]

the only real hero in that pickle was minato.

 

hinata and kurama were both wrongs and two wrongs dont make a right.

 

as for the comment on the shooter,

 

Edited by Catra, 05 October 2017 - 12:03 AM.

[VanitasDS76491]

the only real hero in that pickle was minato.
 
hinata and kurama were both wrongs and two wrongs dont make a right.
 
as for the comment on the shooter,
 

Oh I know I was just using that as an example of naruto's logic with him saying if you have something bad happen in your past you can be forgiven. It doesn't work and I wish naruto learned that people are just evil in some cases.

The proof she would need is them having sex with each other, but then again she will say even that does not count.
 
just looked at SS for proof Sakura is in a loveless marrage something Hinata fans get off on, as I sadly saw one post saying "kitten got what was coming for always hitting Naruto happy she is all alone."
 
Yeah this is why NH should not have become canon and Hinata should have died, hence why I kill her in my stories now.

Typical anti sakura comment. Yet they probably have no problem with rukia, erza, Lucy, bulma do that but Sakura she should be burned at the stake like the witch she is. I can't wait to see your creativity with hinata's deaths.

[Catra]

id like to see him try though. just to see him fail and cry.