54213 replies to this topic

[ThroughWithLove]

No? To say it is platonic would explain what his feelings had always been. Pre-Not-Retcon and Post-Not-Retcon Naruto did love Sakura, as a friend. No one is denying this, so no facts are being denied. 

 

Therefore, you're saying that Naruto no longer loved Sakura as a friend according to the databook. Do tell what happened to make him stop loving her a friend after the ending. Again, silly argument.  Quit denying facts.

 

 

The promise in itself does not, but 467 does. Naruto's words very strongly recognizes that not only Sakura is lying to him, but that she stills loves Sasuke. Sakura assumed that Naruto's feelings were a driver, as did Sai, but they were not. Misunderstanding and under-estimating Naruto is thematic within the story. With this not being a driver of Naruto's feelings, what really is the evidence that these feelings are romantic love, is the error not one's assumption that the crush remains status quo?

 

Again, non sequitur. You are trying to force something that does not follow. Sakura not being the driver to save Sasuke does not erase his feelings for Sakura; they are independent of each other. We've been shown Naruto's feelings for Sakura long before saving Sasuke ever became an issue, so nothing you say follows. 

 

The databooks say Naruto loves her and say he loved her until a certain point. There's no ignoring this. Nor is there any ignoring Naruto's genuine heartfelt reactions throughout various scenes in the manga (i.e. the Tsunade hospital scene in part 1 and him telling us why he can't confess to Sakura). Quit denying facts.

 

 

I'm actually not ignoring this scene. The fault here is your assumption that Naruto is saying that he isn't confessing to Sakura because of the promise, when just chapters later, we learn the promise has nothing to do with anything, and is not driven by feelings with Sakura. 

 

Nope, he literally isn't confessing to Sakura because of the promise. That's his words. Are you saying he was lying? Naruto intended to save Sasuke regardless of the promise due to having a pre-existing bond with him. We've known this since part one. His bond with Sasuke and his promise to Sakura are independent of each other. Quit denying facts.

 

 

At best, you are misinterpreting what the databooks are saying. At worst, you could argue the databooks themselves are off, which they aren't, so it's probably an at best situation. Still no Retcon. 

 

Don't we have interviews about purposeful insertions of a Red Herring in the 600s to cloud things up? I know because we are told and shown this. 

 

The databooks say he loved her. There's no getting around that as you've learned over the weekend.

 

We have no interviews stating that the databooks are red herrings, but even if we did . . . the pre-ending material establishes one fact (Naruto loves Sakura) and the post-ending material establishes a different fact (Naruto never loved Sakura) without making any term to explain or justify the previous established facts. That's a retcon and no amount of running around like a headless chicken inventing new words (i.e. "platonic love") to be used over the words used in the actual published material is going to change this. Quit denying facts.

 

 

But the Last quantifies a difference between this love you are bringing up and the later love Naruto has, the latter being absolutely romantic love, which he experiences for the first time, thus First Love. That is why I call this former love a crush, or platonic love in it's present form; it is the -fitting- term of what we are shown. This one has shallow origins, and fades away from that, instead, becoming a very close friendship. This isn't a Retcon, because this is what happens within the manga. 

Show us precisely where the Last says anything about "quantifying a difference" between the love Naruto had for Sakura pre-ending and the love he had for her post-ending. Sakura says nothing about "crushes" or "platonic love." What she tells us is that Naruto didn't love her. Period. She doesn't say a thing about friendship. Nor does the manga for that matter. Quit making stuff up.

 

 

 By definition it cannot be doing this, particularly when the interpretation offered is one had by many for a long time, who have called such out. 

 

And I imagine that if Rowling came out with a new Harry Potter book where we're told that Harry and Draco have been having secret gay-trysts all throughout their time at Hogwarts and that they're gonna divorce their wives and get together, there would be no retcons there due to the existence of the vocal Harry x Draco fanbase.  Quit grasping at straws.

Edited by ThroughWithLove, 26 September 2017 - 02:20 PM.

[Kagomaru]

 

Therefore, you're saying that Naruto no longer loved Sakura as a friend according to the databook. Do tell what happened to make him stop loving her a friend after the ending. Again, silly argument.  Quit denying facts.

 

 

 

Again, non sequitur. You are trying to force something that does not follow. Sakura not being the driver to save Sasuke does not erase his feelings for Sakura; they are independent of each other. We've been shown Naruto's feelings for Sakura long before saving Sasuke ever became an issue, so nothing you say follows. 

 

The databooks say Naruto loves her and say he loved her until a certain point. There's no ignoring this. Nor is there any ignoring Naruto's genuine heartfelt reactions throughout various scenes in the manga (i.e. the Tsunade hospital scene in part 1 and him telling us why he can't confess to Sakura). Quit denying facts.

 

 

 

Nope, he literally isn't confessing to Sakura because of the promise. That's his words. Are you saying he was lying? Naruto intended to save Sasuke regardless of the promise due to having a pre-existing bond with him. We've known this since part one. His bond with Sasuke and his promise to Sakura are independent of each other. Quit denying facts.

 

 

 

The databooks say he loved her. There's no getting around that as you've learned over the weekend.

 

We have no interviews stating that the databooks are red herrings, but even if we did . . . the pre-ending material establishes one fact (Naruto loves Sakura) and the post-ending material establishes a different fact (Naruto never loved Sakura) without making any term to explain or justify the previous established facts. That's a retcon and no amount of running around like a headless chicken inventing new words (i.e. "platonic love") to be used over the words used in the actual published material is going to change this. Quit denying facts.

 

 

Show us precisely where the Last says anything about "quantifying a difference" between the love Naruto had for Sakura pre-ending and the love he had for her post-ending. Sakura says nothing about "crushes" or "platonic love." What she tells us is that Naruto didn't love her. Period. She doesn't say a thing about friendship. Nor does the manga for that matter. Quit making stuff up.

 

 

 

And I imagine that if Rowling came out with a new Harry Potter book where we're told that Harry and Draco have been having secret gay-trysts all throughout their time at Hogwarts and that they're gonna divorce their wives and get together, there would be no retcons there due to the existence of the vocal Harry x Draco fanbase.  Quit grasping at straws.

Geez, the Nile is not just a river for her,  it's an entirely separate ocean.

[NarutoUzumaki01]

And I'm not the only NS fan that likes the ending. It's tiring to see these remarks, which is why I always reply to them. It would be like me saying no one is a Naruto fan because they hate the ending.

Please, can you give actuall proof?
Because your attitude gives no vibe of being anything close to fan of NS, or any of characters in that pairing, you denying retckons, switching traits, and ooc things in later mateliral, maybe you don't know meaing of word "retcon"?

[NarutoUzumaki01]

This is silly. 
 
You are saying to be an NS Fan I have to say the ending has retcons? What traits were being switched? Who is being OOC?

No, I'm saying that you can't be serious about "there is no retcons", if not trolling. It's pretty clear that you are not intrested in NS in any way, picturing it as "platonic crush" is not even funny.
You don't question why MC didn't even got his love intrest sub-plot resolved in manga, be it positive or negative. Nothing bothers you in Sakura's returning to 12 y.o. (Somehow to you Naruto's "love" is a "platonic, crush", when it's been stated why, when and supported by facts that he ideed had romantaic feelings for her, but Sakura's "love" for Sasuke is mature in manga when basicly it was based of rivaly with Ino, but it's still "mature love" (because it's not even said so in manga?)) herself in terms of her relationship to Sasuke. Uchiha's 180 turn in one chapter. To you it's all justified by "later material". Wich is literally means "no critical thinking" as a stand-alone product can't count on resolving his main plots and sub-plots in other additional materials.

Edited by NarutoUzumaki01, 26 September 2017 - 04:39 PM.

[NarutoUzumaki01]

There are no Retcons, at least, in the manner that ThroughWithLove is illustrating.
 
See, Sai is not wrong when he says Naruto loves Sakura. He is wrong on the type of love. The Databooks aren't wrong when they say this either, but what is being assumed incorrectly is this type of love. 
 
This is why the Last is not a Retcon, as it only cements the correct interpretation of this type of love. 
 
The Love-Interest was never really a subplot, Naruto is hyper-focused on his goals and doesn't even seriously think about girls, hence his response to his father. Even if it was, it does conclude, with him being with Hinata. 437 is the big clue here. To have a different ending, you have to establish Hinata falling out of love, or kililng Hinata, and also establish Sakura falling out of love and drifting to Naruto, or killing Sasuke too. 
 
Sakura never regresses to her twelve year old self. Simply, she acts different around Sasuke. She is shy because she is initiating romance. 
 
Both Naruto's feelings for Sakura and Sakura's feelings for Sasuke start off shallow. One just doesn't develop much of anywhere, and the latter turns to romantic love. 
 
Sasuke's turn only seems like a 180 if you miss that he really fails to unfetter any bonds. 
 
The later material helps, I think, give NS better resolution than what you might have been given in the manga,yes. It is not needed though. The thing is, the main plots were resolved in the manga, NS is not a sub-plot, so ...yeah, it's a nice neat completion to things. Also has nothing to do with criticial thinking, as an aside. 
 
That said? NS ending would have been great. But with Hinata alive post 437 and Sakura's feelings still towards Sasuke, it just wasn't going to happen. 469 just sunk it for good. That's why I strongly believe the simplest change to make NS happen is to kill off Hinata and to show that shift with Sakura.'s feelings.

I don't want to be rude to you, so I'll just say that your opinion is so far from reality, and while you trying to hide behind "logic" of something, the only thing you do is depend on other materials than manga itself to pluck plotholes of manga.
1. Naruto's love sub-plot was established as far as ch.3
2. Main plot as "shinobi problem" was resolved? Really? "Endure as shinobi" is Naruto's answer?

This doesn't mean the ending is bad for it not having NS, I think Kishimoto did a great job.

1. One mass murded is let living because whynot. Another renegate is forgiven for his crimes justbecauseplot. None of questions about Shinobi system, circle of hatred, Uchiha's problem being resolved. "Kishimoto did great job". Yeah, you can call me salty because there was no NS as endcouple, sure.
I won't even bother to answer to other things. If you're serious with your posts, then it's good to know that some people can belive in such fantasies as you do in yours. If it's plain trolling, than it's not even amusing 

Edited by NarutoUzumaki01, 26 September 2017 - 05:52 PM.

[BlackShirtGuy]

You don't have to respond, but you are making claims but not backing them up. 

Really? You of all people are gonna say that, YOU, the one who's been called for pretty much ANYONE in this forum that you NEVER provide evidence to your supposed claims(manga panels, databooks, interviews etc.). You just spurr your little interpretation's and treat them as fact, sorry buddy but thus not how life works, and it's DEFINETLY not how discussions works. If you are  not gonna debate properly don't even bother trying to discuss with other people, the moment someone asked you or tackle an issue with this manga or characters that you CAN'T explain (not blaming you personally, this whoooole ""series"" is one BIG UGLY MESS) you deliberatly avoid the question and deviate from the topic or you play the victim card to treat it as if it was a personal attack, if you want to debate, fine, learn how to do it properly and THEN comeback here. 
Saying, "Naruto and Hinata ended up together so Naruto's love for Sakura was never real and it was resolved" just showcases how much hypocrisy you have in you own thoughts, if the "fake" confession have been brought back I would agree with you there, but HO and BEHOLD IT FREAKING WASN'T even in the stupid retcon movie. Stop, treating your biased interpretations of this piece of shiet of literature and start actually researching proper discussion, becuase ALL you do since day  1 HERE is say: "NO things are like this because the manga it ended this way and Kishimoto says they are" If you are that gullible, I really hope people around you don't deceive you that much, considering apearently all it takes is a group of people and an author to say something to you DROP everything you believe in order to take it as your own religion.

Edited by BlackShirtGuy, 26 September 2017 - 07:47 PM.

[NarutoUzumaki01]

You don't have to respond, but you are making claims but not backing them up.

Plz, back up your claims with scans from manga "Naruto", where Naruto claims he doesn't love Sakura (or he develops romantic feelings to Hinata?), where circle of hatred is resolved, where problem of system of villages exploiting biju as weapons of mass destruction is changed or even mentioned. Plz, because all the scans you ignored from other people about Naruto's feelings was posted.

[lupina]

Plz, back up your claims with scans from manga "Naruto", where Naruto claims he doesn't love Sakura (or he develops romantic feelings to Hinata?), where circle of hatred is resolved, where problem of system of villages exploiting biju as weapons of mass destruction is changed or even mentioned. Plz, because all the scans you ignored from other people about Naruto's feelings was posted.

 

Problem is, there are none.

But "It is there, really", because post-ending narrative demands it to be there, even if it isn't. 

Edited by lupina, 26 September 2017 - 07:56 PM.

[TheFirstEvil100]

 

Problem is, there are none.

But "It is there, really", because post-ending narrative demands it to be there, even if it isn't. 

That is true I know that Naruto loved Sakura we all know it well most.

 

Hell I believe Kili and Tauriel from the Hobbit Flim more than NaruHina.

[My Living Curse]

That is true I know that Naruto loved Sakura we all know it well most.

 

Hell I believe Kili and Tauriel from the Hobbit Flim more than NaruHina.

 

I don't know about you but the part where Kili fell into the cave of dreams at Erebor and got engulfed in an elvish red scarf as he swam through Tauriel's memories was SO romantic.

 

Ah TRUE love. It warms my heart!

[TheFirstEvil100]

 

I don't know about you but the part where Kili fell into the cave of dreams at Erebor and got engulfed in an elvish red scarf as he swam through Tauriel's memories was SO romantic.

 

Ah TRUE love. It warms my heart!

lol I see what you did there

[ThroughWithLove]

Sakura tells Naruto about how the first is not really love, and then shares about how the second is love in the Last. That by definition is quantifying a difference. Not really making anything up, I'm afraid the error is your mis-understanding. 

 

She says nothing about crushes or friendship. Nobody does. You made that up. Cut it out. Give me facts, not fanfiction.

 

 

Not Grasping at straws either, my point on the last part was that many have outlined how things were going to happen, Retcons not necessary. 

 

And again, if J.K. Rowling were to come out with a new book where Draco and Harry got together, said they had been in love with each other the entire time and never loved anyone else, by your logic, the fact that Draco x Harry community would be spiking the football with vindication would be proof positive that there was no retcon. You're grasping. 

 

 

Not saying anything stopped in regards to Naruto and Sakura's friendship. That's not my argument, if that is your interpretation of it. 

 

Correction: That is your argument or you're disregarding published material just as I said you were. "She decided to protect his dream.To pay back Naruto Who always protected her and loved her until now." So which is it? Did Naruto's platonic relationship with Sakura die or do the parts of the series that are inconvenient to your anti-NS stance not apply for . . . reasons?

 

 

My point about 469 is that remove the Promise of the Lifetime, what evidence is there that the love Naruto has for Sakura is not much more than a crush? 

 

Nope, the promise was never invalidated, so your point, whatever it may be, is automatically false. Naruto wanted to save Sasuke no matter what, but by his own words, the promise is linked to his feelings for Sakura as well as why he couldn't bring himself to confess to her. 

 

This is not ignoring what the databooks are saying either. My counterpoint is that there is no evidence of this love being anything like a mature love. Thus I am curious of the actual Japanese words used, as they would better suggest the depth of the feelings. The Databooks are not wrong, I think in that how both Karin and Naruto have this same love used, really suggests a more childish sort of love, i.e., a crush. 

 

"Mature" love is a matter of opinion and also latest term you've poofed out of thin air with no prior reference in the source material. He had romantic inclinations towards Sakura and the databooks have repeatedly claimed that he loved her. Incidentally, they've also said Sakura used to have a "crush" on Sasuke.

 

 

So they get the difference between "love" and "crush" just fine and yet use the word "love" to describe Naruto's feelings for Sakura.

Edited by ThroughWithLove, 26 September 2017 - 10:54 PM.

[Nostradamus]

It's easier to understand Analyzer's posts if you understand that she's willing to accept anything in a story if either the writer talks about it an interview or according to her the writer adds *cough* retcons *cough* new information.

Whatever is said now or in the future is what matters. Anything that was mentioned before, doesn't matter, it's old stuff, nobody cares, it's irrelevant and it's not important anymore, and it should be ignored because it does not matter.

[Yyubie]

It's easier to understand Analyzer's posts if you understand that she's willing to accept anything in a story if either the writer talks about it an interview or according to her the writer adds *cough* retcons *cough* new information.

Whatever is said now or in the future is what matters. Anything that was mentioned before, doesn't matter, it's old stuff, nobody cares, it's irrelevant and it's not important anymore, and it should be ignored because it does not matter.

Yup ,Umbridge believe is , the ending already happen , NH /SS is cannon , finish , done , end of the line. It doesn't matter the reasoning behind it , it doesn't matter what happen in the past , it doesn't matter if Naruto love Sakura or not , Naruto and Hinata are married couple so that is not relevant. Doesn't matter how many murder attempt Sasuke has done to Sakura , they both married couple and have child. All the foreshadowing , hint , all of those doesn't matter because NH/SS is already happen so it's rendering them useless.

 

Bottom line is , while we try so hard to find a reason behind everything , Umbridge is just "Hey it's already happen". It's like when you been served a food , we trying to find out how the dish is done and cooked , is it using fresh ingredients or bad ingredients , is the chef pro or amateur. But Umbridge is on the other hand "Just eat it man , just accept it".

[NarutoUzumaki01]

I have already sourced that by removing the "Promise of a lifetime" as a romantic thing (469), that there is really nothing going on in regards to NS in the rest of the manga post part one, and have even sourced a missed opportunity to make it so, when Naruto says farewell to Minato to the last time. I have demonstrated that when such moments are provided, they are taken away, (The Girlfriend comment), which also doubles for a second point as teasing, suggestions. That is all it is though. Three different sourced moments there, to show you that NS is never really like this. 
 
I've already talked lengthily about NH, doesn't the Last cover the exact thing you are looking for here after he realizes he has loved Hinata all along, falling in the love he already had? There's no romance in the manga, bar 699 for SS, if this is one of those questions. 
 
As for the end of the cycle of hatred and bijuu stuff, 698, 699, 700. That's the defeat of Sasuke there. Tenten's comment is almost blatant about peace. 
 
This is shown within these chapters. Plenty of sources. Heck, the Bijuu are resolved earlier, even. Clearly in the Boruto area the Bijuu are not still being used this way. 
 
It's all there. You just have to understand what you are seeing. This isn't a tell you everything sort of thing, this is a show you thing. 
 
What else do you think 700 is doing? What do you think you are being shown in those panels? I feel like 700 almost gives you everything, really. What, are you interpreting things as if nothing has changed? Because 700 is literal blatant change and boom.

Not even one scan, just your suggestions and interpretetions of story. Bigger half even goes to related materials not even orignal manga. Talking about backing things up, and don't do so, tsk tsk tsk.

Yup ,Umbridge believe is , the ending already happen , NH /SS is cannon , finish , done , end of the line. It doesn't matter the reasoning behind it , it doesn't matter what happen in the past , it doesn't matter if Naruto love Sakura or not , Naruto and Hinata are married couple so that is not relevant. Doesn't matter how many murder attempt Sasuke has done to Sakura , they both married couple and have child. All the foreshadowing , hint , all of those doesn't matter because NH/SS is already happen so it's rendering them useless.
 
Bottom line is , while we try so hard to find a reason behind everything , Umbridge is just "Hey it's already happen". It's like when you been served a food , we trying to find out how the dish is done and cooked , is it using fresh ingredients or bad ingredients , is the chef pro or amateur. But Umbridge is on the other hand "Just eat it man , just accept it".

It's not about reasoning, it's about being blind to facts, nobody denies canon in here, just somebody can't accept how badly it's writen.

Edited by NarutoUzumaki01, 26 September 2017 - 11:46 PM.

[Yyubie]

Umbridge think is that NH / SS cannon means automatically ERASE every NS development. So all of our opinion doesn't matter to her. She is the type of person that , just want the end result , she doesn't care how it made and how it happen.

[NarutoUzumaki01]

Umbridge think is that NH / SS cannon means automatically ERASE every NS development. So all of our opinion doesn't matter to her. She is the type of person that , just want the end result , she doesn't care how it made and how it happen.

Care to still post here.

[Legend054]

 

 I have already sourced that by removing the "Promise of a lifetime" as a romantic thing (469), that there is really nothing going on in regards to NS in the rest of the manga post part one, and have even sourced a missed opportunity to make it so, when Naruto says farewell to Minato to the last time. I have demonstrated that when such moments are provided, they are taken away, (The Girlfriend comment), which also doubles for a second point as teasing, suggestions. That is all it is though. Three different sourced moments there, to show you that NS is never really like this. 

 

I've already talked lengthily about NH, doesn't the Last cover the exact thing you are looking for here after he realizes he has loved Hinata all along, falling in the love he already had? There's no romance in the manga, bar 699 for SS, if this is one of those questions. 

 

As for the end of the cycle of hatred and bijuu stuff, 698, 699, 700. That's the defeat of Sasuke there. Tenten's comment is almost blatant about peace. 

 

This is shown within these chapters. Plenty of sources. Heck, the Bijuu are resolved earlier, even. Clearly in the Boruto area the Bijuu are not still being used this way. 

 

It's all there. You just have to understand what you are seeing. This isn't a tell you everything sort of thing, this is a show you thing. 

 

What else do you think 700 is doing? What do you think you are being shown in those panels? I feel like 700 almost gives you everything, really. What, are you interpreting things as if nothing has changed? Because 700 is literal blatant change and boom. 

 

naruto's feelings for sakura was indeed the romantic type love. this is not  an opinion/assumption this is a fact. he clearly states in chapter 3 that the girl he loves is sakura and he even tried to kiss her which is more than enough to confirm that his feelings for her were romantic. it's a strong one too because of how hurt he was when he sees her embracing sasuke at the hospital.

they didn't need to keep telling us this in part 2 as it's clearly understood that the only girl he loves romantically is sakura and this was already established in part 1. it is shown to have remained unchanged in part 2 because he was blushing when sakura was trying feed him ramen and he approves the girlfriend remark (call it whatever you want, but it counts). so nowhere in part 2 does it show he got over sakura. also, when he was saying goodbye to minato, the girl he was thinking was actually non other than sakura. naruto says that not everything is going what his mom told him such as that he was not about to get the girl he loves (sakura, who is as great as his mom) because she already loves someone else. again this is not an assumption, this is common sense given by an established fact.

[VanitasDS76491]

That is true I know that Naruto loved Sakura we all know it well most.
 
Hell I believe Kili and Tauriel from the Hobbit Flim more than NaruHina.

Agreed on both especially kili and tauriel since that was set up in smaug and was sad when kili died in front of her but the saddest death in the hobbit is thorin especially in the movies.

[TouKen4Life3g]

You know...

 

Talking about The Last is bringing back bad memories.