54213 replies to this topic

[Riverkid]

 

1: Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, we can't say Ino is pretty too, because it's Naruto that must believe it to attract him. Naruto's crush is not substantiated much beyond pretty and beat Sasuke. That isn't why my point is weak, that is why the crush is weak. 

Then you are making a case where Naruto only goes for Sakura because of her look, and not because of rivalry. Which means that his crush/feelngs towards here were not caused by Sasuke -> doesn't add up with the thing what was said in the last
 

2: Because he wanted acknowledgement, simply. He wanted to be better than Sasuke. That is the why. This is why it is shallow. It's less about beating Sasuke by taking his girl, it's more as getting acknowledgement by getting you before Sasuke. 

As i said before, he doesn't beat Sasuke just by taking 1 girl of 10 out of his girl-fanbase. If he wants to beat sasuke, then by getting more attention than him, if that was his goal then he would have to get atleast 6/10 from the girls. Easy math. That wasn't the case because there was something special with Sakura, and that had nothing to do with Sasuke to why Naruto choose her ;)
 

3: Quality and logical are perfectly debatable. Happy to debate that. Far better than conspiring that the intent is not what is on page. 
 

If you write this, then how comes you never consider them ? atleast not when you debate with me
 

I'm not worshiping the story or the author here. We can agree on the fact that the author knows the story best, yes? This fact has me surprised that people don't consider that maybe he -isn't- lying. Maybe they didn't misunderstand something. This isn't considered. Instead, because their interpretation was wrong, the text must be lying, someone changed something. They shield themselves from cognitive dissonance with post ad hoc ergo propter hoc reasoning. 

 

I think if you approach it with that mindset you will see the filing for the holes that you missed or ignored before. Happy to tell you what those are if you missed them all the same though. That said, completely possible that even after understanding what you missed, you state the execution was bad because of X, Y, Z. And that is a much, much, better argument, than something that postulates conspiracy in how the story was to go on. 

i dont fill the holes in order to make kishimotos writing less worse.. i see it how it is.

[Gurmeet]

In Chapter 3 she saw Naruto as anything but a friend. The relationship grew into friendship. (Databooks can reference this and the changing feelings, and you can also reference several moments in the manga when Sakura shows her friendship, specifically the Chuunin Exams, when she heals Naruto, etc). I am not assuming she started seeing him as a friend, we -know- it did not start as friendship. 
 
For the Fake Confession, Kishimoto was not speaking about Sakura loving Naruto. That is not the part that is real. She was not lying about wanting to protect Naruto, or helping Naruto. It wasn't selfish or mean. It was intended to be heroic, a positive moment for the character.

You yourself said data books aren't the best source but if you take data book there was also shown Sakura feelings did change into love and she had no longer the same feeling she had for saskue and databooks aren't written by the author. If she didn't see him as friend why did she raised the hand for Naruto in chunnin exams.You said that team 7 beginning was badly executed or shallow but I think it was perfectly executed that how we all are at our young ages and the talk of conspiracy is because there are many contradictory statements and when you compare Sakura to kiba level character.

Edited by Gurmeet, 21 September 2017 - 04:59 PM.

[T XD]

Alright there is something I would like to point out. Post NH and SS marriage, Naruto and Sakura have never interacted at all, at least to my knowledge, and in No meaningful way if they did. So apparently they are supposed to be as close friends as they ever were yet they don't dislay A SINGLE ASPECT of they relationship they had before. So can some one tell me why that is? Why are Naruto and Sakura supposed to be each other's best friend (second best in naruto's case) yet act like they are complete strangers in the new series. Better yet why don't Hinata and Naruto or Sakura and Sasuke have any friendly or casul interactions that show thay are completely comfortable around each other abd their relationship is one thaytthey have to walk on egg shells around eachother? These couples are supposed to be in love yet THEY BOTH SEEM LIKE parties that were in an arranged marriage agaist their will. I have more to say on this topic later, as I'm at work right

I think they don't show Naruto and Sakura together cause it would add to the obvious picture that they're more compatible and warm for each other than Naruto and Hinata. Also, possibly cause they don't care much about Sakura.

[Riverkid]

 

The Databooks do not state that Sakura's feelings change into love though. They only at most tease, but as the manga confirms, which is a better source than the databooks yes, that these feelings do not change into love. 

 

 

1: Except it is not only looks, it is both elements at play. Chapter 3's actions are literally because of rivalry. 

you are taking 1 out of 100 scene where there are hints of rivalry being involed to support your argumentation ? not to mentioned that all happened in the beginning of the manga without any development taking place.
 

2: You are misunderstanding. He wants Sakura to acknowledge him instead of Sasuke. It's a selfish thing not precedated on haha, I beat you Sasuke, more, hey, pick me, look at me, I'm better! It's not about taking part of Sasuke's fanbase. It all centers around acknowledgement. 

And i will ask again, why does he choose Sakura for that? You can't just skip that question, no matter how much you want to skip it.
 

3: Because we aren't really debating about logic/quality, more narrative intent. You are proposing Chapter 3 and the Last clash, I am trying to get you to understand that perhaps they do not.

Intent is settled by the Writer, what do you want to debate about that? Its his story. If he wants to write a Stroy from point A -> Z he can do that. As an viewer you can just value that story by quality and logic. 

 

Which is where my message comes in: Instead of trying to look for holes that typically aren't there, see if you can understand what you missed. Maybe there is a hole, but with a significant portion and the author able to point it out? Likely not. 

I didn't missed anything. The missing point is in the explanation to why Naruto choose Sakura. Thats not a question in the first place from me, because the answer is already there. I just ask that question whenever i see someone bringing up the "it was just because of rivalry" nonsense. 


Stop trying to talk around that topic, trying to finde a gap where you can hide.. and give me an answer to that question. And stop saying " He wants Sakura to acknowledge him instead of Sasuke" He could have done the same with Ino or anyone else who had a crush on Sasuke. However you WANT the case that he choosed Sakura by her look AND also because of rivalry.. making it perfect to defend Kishimoto. Are you blind? or dont you see that both of these things doesn't add up together ? im sorry, but stop creating cases to support your argumentation and stick to logic and quality writing.

What i think is that Kishimoto made Sakura a real crush for the Protagonist, and he made clear points to why it wasn't because of rivarly. Let alone the fact that Sakura was the only girl Naruto had interest in is just prove enough.

Kishimoto then decided to retcon the constellation to play it down as some results of rivalry, which doesn't fit with his writing in the beginning of the manga.

That has nothing to do with "filling holes with mindset" or whatsoever. If Kishimoto displays Sakura as a real crush, then its a crush. If he retcons it at the end, well.. sad for him to damage his writing

[gamma]

I think they don't show Naruto and Sakura together cause it would add to the obvious picture that they're more compatible and warm for each other than Naruto and Hinata. Also, possibly cause they don't care much about Sakura.

 

tfw your more passionate and open with your friends than your own wife ☕

[T XD]

 

tfw your more passionate and open with your friends than your own wife ☕

That feel when your dad talks more to his best friend/ex-love than his own wife.

[Riverkid]

 

1: And the other 99 are?

up to the debate. i dont know. However picking 1 to argument the whole thing? zzz

 

2: I already answered why he picked Sakura, three times now. It's well shown this and the rivalry are the roots of it in chapter 3. It could be declared better, Team 7 bonds in general could have been. Plus after this chapter? She's his team-mate. Easier to act now. It puts a huge separation between her and the others. 

No you didn't. You just made the case that her good looking appearence was the key-stone. Even if you are true, that would still dismantle the statement that it was solely because or rivalry, because there are more elements taking in place. Just picking one element to argument the whole thing? zzzz and you don't know if the rivalry are the roots since we never know how and when it started.

Its kinda the same with Sakuras and Inos rivalry, however this is more clear. Sasuke is the most popular guy, so its just logical that many girls including them would fight over him. 

 

The problem with the rest is there is no retcons in the Last, it builds and explains the already established, it does not alter any events. It was not, really, pointed out that it was not because of rivalry, chapter 3 establishes that Sasuke is what they have in common even, they both desire his acknowledgement.  

Retcon on Naruto? oh no.. how can i possible think that mrs Analyzer would even accept such words ? lets just not put more words into that topic without hurting kishimotos writing ): poor kishi needs pity and love

 

And the crush being spurned by prettiness and rivalry doesn't make it a fake crush. It -is- a real crush. And crushes can and do fade, and instead we have a strong, close friendship. 

ye, however not in the world of Kishimoto.. because shifting feelings to someone else? oh, thats a crime.. that would put everyone in a bad light regarding kishimotos view.. lets just make it so that it wasn't true from the beginning.. hmm.. and lets say it was just because of rivarly.
 

Not saying you can't say Naruto is bad, or illogical. But your reasons are off. 

my reasons aren't off, since i havent even giving clear reasons. Im only here to ask about the quality and logical aspect you try to worship. Don't let me start to why he is a bad writer.. i could write a whole manga about his bad writing. 

Edited by Riverkid, 21 September 2017 - 06:22 PM.

[Kagomaru]

That feel when your dad/husband would rather send a clone out to celebrate your (child's) birthday than take a few hours off to come himself.

Edited by Kagomaru, 21 September 2017 - 07:43 PM.

[Riverkid]

 

1: I only need one scene though, to explain that Naruto thirsted for acknowledgement because he wanted Sakura to see him instead of Sasuke. Sasuke was his rival. That's all I need. The earliest is the best to work with, even, as it sets the tone. 

ye, lets forget about developed relationships.. because the beginning is all what matters. And its the easiest to work on your argumenation. good way to debate, clearly
 

2: Except the Last says it is the roots, which goes in line with the example I used. It has no bearing that rivalry against Sasuke plays it's part in it. You could trace Ino/Sakura/Sasuke to this sort of, because Sasuke becomes part of the competition of the rivalry for a brief time. See Naruto/Sakura/Sasuke similarly, even if Sasuke isn't really much of a participant. The difference? Sakura's grows from crush to genuine love, Ino's fades and finds someone else. Sasuke moves from indifference to accepting of love, and Naruto's fades and moves onto someone else. 

All of your points are just assumption since we dont know what started when. Whe dont see the beginning, so dont try please.
 

3: Or...maybe there's legitimately no retcon on the last, and the statement has no bearing on his feelings or otherwise.

well, i think i already made it clear thats its not smart to debate with someone who is so shortminded and shortviewed.
 

4: See, this is conspiracy thinking though. Nothing sources this thinking. The only thing that -can- be fact is that this was the plan. This also misunderstands the shifting feelings. It would make Sakura's feelings of Sasuke shallow if she shifted to Naruto, because she's shifting to a guy that is now the hero. Ties in with cultural aspects. 

shallow ? xD ye, like it would be really shallow shifting feelings away from a guy who tries to kill you...good lord. you make me laugh

you start again bringing nothing to the table, as always after replying 2-3 times. Your stubborness is turned on, and you just defend your argumentation in every possible ways. 

keep continueing making a case for all your argumentations to fit in, however your name "analyzer" is a joke regarding to what you write

Edited by Riverkid, 21 September 2017 - 07:19 PM.

[Shadow Wolf]

That moment when a satellite character who interacted with Naruto no more than 10 times during a course of 4 years apparently knows Naruto better than his mentors, his family, his teammates and pretty much anyone else who knows him.

[gamma]

tfw your cousin dies playing cupid for the sake of your love life... need me one of those 

Edited by gamma, 21 September 2017 - 07:35 PM.

[Kagomaru]

The moment when you actually question why you need to escort your supposed true love home after your "false love" points this out. Even though you typically escorted the aforementioned false love home without a single thought.

[Riverkid]

 

 

 

So...using the manga and statements stating the opposite of what you are arguing is bad? I'm mostly just re-stating what has been stated. 

 

 

 no, its your analysis and execution. Its like yo uare reading the manga upsidedown

[My Living Curse]

For those wondering where my post went, I accidentally posted it in my other thread and didn't wanna leave 2 copies up.

 

I am an idiot sometimes. Sorry! 

Edited by My Living Curse, 21 September 2017 - 08:23 PM.

[T XD]

For those wondering where my post went, I accidentally posted it in my other thread and didn't wanna leave 2 copies up.

 

I am an idiot sometimes. Sorry! 

You can copy it and paste it here then delete your post in the other thread.

[HalfDemonInuyasha]

One of biggest mistake of kisimoto he made Hinata character disappear after the confession and bringing her back in the 600s who does that?

Only around 30 chapters of "interaction" and a majority of that "interaction" is either...

A.) Hinata barely saying anything before blushing, stuttering, and fainting, and Naruto having no idea why and thinking she's just weird.

B.) Words only from Hinata, but nothing back from Naruto, then things move on with whatever Hinata saying never being brought up again within the main story.

[Phantom_999]

 

They interact in Gaiden?

 

It's because the future stuff isn't about them. Naruto is busy as Hokage. Sakura is busy. Sasuke is busy. Team 7 stuff is going to be very limited. It makes sense. 

 

I don't see any of the walking on egg shells stuff you see at all. 

 

It doesn't have to be about them for any casual or light hearted interactions for them to show that the have a solid and meaningful relationship. Naruto works as hokage, so what? he still comes home doesn't he? that episode when he came back to to get his coat  before leaving again and he and Hinata were taliking? they didn't have any light conversation joking banter that makes it seem like they are even close. If it was Sakura  that was married to Naruto I'm sure there would be that. In fact I'm even pretty sure she would tease him a little bit. And on the topic of Sakura, if her marriage to Sasuke was SO ROMANTIC and everything she has ever dreamed of, why is it that in gaiden when she saw Sasuke, she was desperately craving his attention like a neglected child? That is what I mean when I say "walk on eggshells. I mean  that neither Naruto and Sakura loosen up or act like themselves around the so called "love of their lives". In fact they seem like they interact solely to force down the throats of the fans that still bother to read or watch Boruto the fact that they are indeed married but nothing else. they both act like they got married to "just get busy and have kids", but the relationships don't go beyond that.

 

Also, I recall you mentioning about comparing this to bleach and Avatar the Last Airbender in terms of the romance subplot, so I will address those differences. Aang and Katara was hinted at already within the series every few episodes or so. Whether or not that was well done is up to interpretation, which by the way is what ALL OF US are saying when debating with you in regards to to Naruto X Hinata and Sasuke X Sakura. Are they canon? sure. Are they well done? We don't think so, and obviously the manga did little work if any to justify either of these so called "romances", but you are always counter attacking our opinions  something that is JUST as opinionated and treating your word as fact with no evidence to back it up other than your own interpretation of the manga. 

 

As for Bleach? Guess what? Tite Kubo WASN'T focused on romance. GASP* I know right? and do you know how I know? because there was little to no shipping at all in the manga and it shows. The pairings at the end had small hints only if you squint but I think the end couples Are STILL much better done than Naruto's. Ichigo and Orihime look completely relaxed around each other and Rukia and Renji came to visit Ichigo TOGETHER. I get an actual Feeling that these couples are close but I don't from Naruto.

 

And no, don't argue that Naruto wasn't focused on romance either, because while romance wasn't the focus it has some importance as it has two love triangles ( Naruto, Sasuke, Sakura)  (and Naruto, Sakura, Hinata) and Sakura and Sasuke getting different admirers as well such as Lee for Sakura and Ino plus countless fangirls for Sasuke. plus unlike Ichigo that showed no blatant interest in a particular female, Naruto has show explicit interest in Sakura and interacts with her on a regular basis. If a creator has a character interact with another character that they are interested that means that they at least want something to happen between them at least, or at least hope something would come out of it.

 

Only around 30 chapters of "interaction" and a majority of that "interaction" is either...

 

A.) Hinata barely saying anything before blushing, stuttering, and fainting, and Naruto having no idea why and thinking she's just weird.

 

B.) Words only from Hinata, but nothing back from Naruto, then things move on with whatever Hinata saying never being brought up again within the main story.

 

By the way I would like to address something about Hinata stuttering and fainting in front of Naruto. IS THAT NOT PLAYED for COMEDY? In fact is Sakura acting all lovey dovey towards Sasuke only for Sasuke to coldly reject her also is not played for comedy? You hear anti-NaruSaku comments all the time saying that their relationship is played for negative attributes or for comedy but they DON'T EVEN BRING UP THESE issues. It's only ever laughable, the double standards of these particular individuals.  

Edited by Phantom_999, 21 September 2017 - 08:56 PM.

[sushi.]

10 points for all of you. These are endless. How bout the moment when the author calls the MC's love interest the boob character?

[Phantom_999]

Hey if the creator thinks the only thing worth mentioning about the MC's love interest are her tat-tats   it means the relationship had nothing to begin with right?

[sushi.]

Hey if the creator thinks the only thing worth mentioning about the MC's love interest are her tat-tats   it means the relationship had nothing to begin with right?

I think he even said that's why he needed her or something, but I don't have the source or the exact words. I just remember I kept laughing for days.