54213 replies to this topic

[Gurmeet]

Do the west have more naruhina than narusaku fans?

[Nostradamus]

Do the west have more naruhina than narusaku fans?

Thing is we don't have any official numbers to go by, so we can't say this is bigger because here's the proof ...

Honestly I would say based on how much money The Last Retcon and The Burrito movie and everything else that they were willing to release data on, and seeing how things go on with the anime and manga now. Yes granted, one could argue that it's not doing well because it's not good enough to make people want it.

 

I would say the narusaku fans are the majority since most of them were also story fans, not just of the pairing. And story fans will always be a much larger group than pairing fans. The only exception to this rule is if the story is about romance.

Pairing fans have always been the loudest of the bunch. And NH fans were the loudest of them all.

I see it as the loudest minority vs the silent majority.

[Gurmeet]

Thing is we don't have any official numbers to go by, so we can't say this is bigger because here's the proof ...
Honestly I would say based on how much money The Last Retcon and The Burrito movie and everything else that they were willing to release data on, and seeing how things go on with the anime and manga now. Yes granted, one could argue that it's not doing well because it's not good enough to make people want it.
 
I would say the narusaku fans are the majority since most of them were also story fans, not just of the pairing. And story fans will always be a much larger group than pairing fans. The only exception to this rule is if the story is about romance.
Pairing fans have always been the loudest of the bunch. And NH fans were the loudest of them all.
I see it as the loudest minority vs the silent majority.

I know that Japan has more narusaku fans than naruhina I have read it somewhere don't remember where.

[Gurmeet]

Two issues with saying SS is abusive using this evidence. 
 
1: It's not. They're not in a romantic relationship. They are enemies. Sasuke is getting her out of the way so he can deal with Naruto in panel top-right, and in panel top-left, you could boldly argue self-defense, Sakura is intending to kill him, and at worst, he is making a pre-emptive attack. 
 
2: If we are saying Sasuke is abusive, then every Team 7 bonds, including NS, is -also- abusive. Throw the trope argument at me, but the thing is, the spiraling down into darkness is -also- a trope. So if we are applying this label regardless of trope, then NS is -also- abusive. But see 1: It's not, and this is not. 
 
 
 
Numbering the below for my response: 

 
1: Early on in the manga, the label of shallow applies. The point is Sakura's feelings grow from a crush into love. Kakashi did state Sakura's feelings did change, they -were- shallow, and became more. 
 
2: No, he did not fall in love with Hinata out of "guilt". There's no evidence to support the interpretation. The Genjutsu does not -make- him do anything, it shows him memories, and Naruto begins to fall in the love he already had. There's nothing to support a bitter ending that Naruto did not even want to go to his wedding, Naruto is not about that level of conspiracy unhappiness, 700, the Last, the end of Shippuden are all portrayed as happy endings. While perhaps it could be more detailed, paperwork and Hokage work is not so easily just "shadowcloned" to be easier, because we see him visibly exhausted and over-worked despite of it. We also -have- seen him leave a shadow clone at the office and go home in the Anime, yet return because a grave matter at work called for him. The bit about preferring office ramen over a home cooked meal doesn't have support, this is never shown or stated that way. 
 
3: The evidence is the language. I would retort he is dancing around the answer, and then suggest a conclusion based on that evidence. Since 700 has the ending it has, it's not bad to make an interpretation that lines up with the work. 
 
4: He does get hit (Which is what it really is, hit) for joking about it. It's exactly in line with before. She does not directly say no, but if she did, the Red Herring wouldn't work at all. Saying he was dead serious is disproven chapters later after Naruto watches Sakura take down one of the Ten Tails's Spawns, thinking he can't tease her anymore. Side note: We = us as Readers. 
 
5: Skipped this one for whatever reason. The word is like in that chapter, not love. Sai is inept at social understanding, which puts his validity of assessing the relationship into question, rather than reinforcing the conclusion. Naruto does not confirm anything to him either. (As for the databook, what love? I know there are mutliple words for it with different weights in the base language. What word is this translated from? This makes all the difference). 
 
6: She is giving these reasons to persuade him. The error is way too much zoom in your argument that misses the context. The ploy is to get him to stop going after Sasuke, because she felt bad about it. The thing is she did not understand Naruto here, Sai did not understand Naruto either. Misunderstanding and underestimating Naruto is a common subtheme. 
 
7: Well yeah, she is asking a personal question, which could have been played up to be entirely different as you are seeing it. Instead, it's a comical moment that has no development weight. (This is why I would argue that NS doesn't have the development a lot of people says it does, at least not in the way they think it does). 
 
8: Or I'm just seeing it as the comical moment it is, and not giving any additional weight to it. 
 
9: Nine ignores Sasuke using his new power to protect Sasuke. The thing is Naruto does care about Sakura, we know that, not at all altered in that Gaara fight, the crush is very much existent here, awesome NS moment from his side, and this could have totally lead to NS dev from Sakura's side if the author wanted. Instead, the hospital scene though afterwards does much to show that Sakura still loves Sasuke, and this isn't going to go anywhere, and we really don't see any further dev after this. 
 
10: I've heard it a lot, but it doesn't change the reality that I still ship NS. Read fanfics, search for fan art, and argue on the best way to execute it in canon. Our difference isn't our ship, it's that I support the ending, so naturally I am at odds with those who don't like it. I have taking the time to show how NH do dev, even stated they have more than any other pairing. I've not spoken so much on SS, NH gets more undue criticism, and I've also touched on a little on how NS does not dev into a romantic base, their feelings always firmly stay platonic, get swatted down from anything more with Kishimoto taking the possiblity away as soon as its put forward, or making it a joke. 
 
I can say that, and still ship NS. I can believe that, and still ship NS. It doesn't matter. The point is we are both fans, I just love the end, and you do not.

1.he is not getting out of the way to deal with Naruto he intends to kill her.

Edited by Gurmeet, 20 September 2017 - 02:33 PM.

[TheFirstEvil100]

1. Sakura is a lifetime and hardcore fangirl of Sasuke
Yeah, she is that fangirl who only cares about his good looks and superficial traits. Look at her act. Very childish, immature, and shallow.

 

2. Sasuke ABUSED her and tried to KILL her
Yeah, he HATES her so much to the point of trying to kill her THREE TIMES. Not to mention other rejections and harsh treatments before. And to think that there are fans who support violent pairing… this is just SO WRONG!

 

 

Even after everything he did, when he finally said sorry, she answered by : “sorry for what, Sasuke-kun?” Oh kitten, does this girl even have a brain? Look at what he did!

I wouldn’t ever forgive Sasuke if I were her.  This is not true love, this is a toxic love and unhealthy obsession! This is BAD EXAMPLE for any woman who watches Naruto!

 

3. Sakura has no self-respect at all
Forget about her being strongest kunoichi in medic whatsover. She is just forever fangirl who doesn’t have self-respect for herself. Even after being hurt physically and emotionally, and almost killed, now she must look after a child while her “supposed-to-be-lover” is nowhere to be seen. Anything for good looks only, huh? What a shallow mind is that!
In the Last Movie, she said something like, “when a girl truly loves someone, that can’t be changed.” ARE YOU kittening KIDDING ME? I am a girl and knew how to love someone so deeply but not to the point of could not change when he treated me badly. Because I am not a fangirl, not stupid, have self-respect, and not into good looks only just like our so-called “heroine”. Shame on her! She is the worst heroine ever!

4. Does Sasuke even love her?

I have this headcanon that Sasuke NEVER loved her. Proof? He said it himself in chapter 693, just a few chapters before ending!

Even after there is a child named Salad that looks like Karin so much under her protection (yeah, maybe she is Karin’s child?), he has never seen to be with her and wanders around. What a kittening loving guy is to wander around when he is so much in love with Sakura like those SS shippers claim? Yeah, in SS lovers’ mind, it is so logical when you leave your love behind! So this is LOVE? More like slavery in the name of love to me. Maybe this short doujin will do justice:

If Sasuke loved Sakura so much, he should be in the Konoha, rebuilding his clan and having so many babies with her. He is the last of his clan, shouldn’t he do many procreations? He LOVES her, doesn’t he? So what’s the matter with having children with her? The only logical reason is he never loved her, probably just using her to have a child and then, could not stand her behaviour anymore, he ran away (this only can be seen from those who have brains, not blinded by shipping glasses).

Having a kid is not the proof of love either. That could be the side effect of one night stand. And one night stand doesn’t need true love. Or maybe Sasuke was drunk at that time so he had no control towards his action? That is if Salad is Sakura’s TRUE child, not Karin’s or another woman’s.

 

5. Sakura’s love is selfish

Love should be two ways, not one-sided moreover obsessive. SS lovers always claim how much Sakura loves Sasuke, but do they ever think about Sasuke’s feelings? Sakura is so selfish and so are her fans!

 

Many fans have suspected that SS became canon just so the next generations of Naruto have many potential fans (and merchandise buyers), not because of development, love, or chemistry between characters whatsoever. SasuSaku and NaruHina (Naruto-Hinata/NH) are some of most popular pairings in Naruto and also Hinata’s seiyuu is so popular. They also plan to ship future SS/NH kids (Bolt-Salad) to get other most popular fanbase, SasuNaru (Sasuke-Naruto/SN), to flock to the future story. Yes, they have four combos for ultimate popularity and success!

 

So, they made this ending, followed by two movies, miniseries, and novels, expecting it to be hugely popular so the show could go on like DBZ even untill Naruto’s grandchildren’s series. Too bad for you, many Naruto’s fans also have LOGIC that is why instead of success, the show is criticized heavily.

 

As popular as they are, SasuSaku and NaruHina are lack of development and logic, mainly SasuSaku. I don’t have a problem with NaruHina because Naruto never mistreated Hinata, but SasuSaku is almost impossible to happen in the real world. How could a girl still love a boy, no matter how good looking he was, after he was trying to kill her THREE TIMES? Not only that, he LEFT her alone with a kid to look after! Where is the girl’s power, emancipation, or self-respect in that matter? Girls are not slaves!

 

It seems like Kishimoto doesn’t want this kind of ending either. If he wanted it since 8 years ago like he claimed, why did he make SS development so negative? It is clear that he didn’t want SS to happen and wanted NaruSaku (Naruto-Sakura/NS) instead, what with so many developments between them along the series. This argument is strengthen by his own claim that he didn’t know how SS pairing happened. How could the author not know when he planned it 8 years ago?!

 

So, that is what happen when you choose to set aside logic for popularity. In my opinion, popularity will follow authors who are true to themselves. Authors should have concept before the story flows and not give up their story no matter what. If Kishimoto really wanted SS then make their development along the way beautifully. The same goes for NH. But instead, it is NS which was developed beautifully. This beautiful long development of Naruto and Sakura and their relationships were ruined in the blink of eyes with a reason that really doesn’t make sense like “red herring”. How could their sweet love story get altered by the abusing one just to please certain fans?

 

Real authors won’t mislead their own fans for years. They won’t make a plot about X and Y for a long time when X finally settles down with Z. That is a very bad writing! That is the same as tricking people and no one’s happy being tricked!

Really, Naruto is the worst story I have ever read and SasuSaku is equivalently the worst pairing I have ever seen!

If I ever had children, I wouldn’t let them read Naruto, a hero who turned to zero just because of some OOC ending chapters. Moreover if my child were female, I would forbide Naruto stritcly. I don’t want my daughter to look up to Sakura, thinking that true love can happen at age of 5 so they can accept whatever their “true love” throw at them without any dignity left. No… no… my daughter should be a smart girl who knows what is the best for her and respects herself. Love is not slavery and certainly not abusive!

Edited by TheFirstEvil100, 20 September 2017 - 02:42 PM.

[Kagomaru]

See, the difference is that I don't put the blame solely on Sakura for this and I tend to blank out the last few chapters of the manga and Burrito because that is not my girl. That's not the girl who I watched grow from a lovestruck wannabe ninja to a powerful, compassionate, independent woman who surpassed her Sannin mentor.  I lay the blame where it truly belongs, at the feet of Kishimoto and SP.  

[lupina]

Well, this is a series I've been wanting to write for a while. And the characters already have similar, but not identical, personality traits. 

 

If you're curious about the characters you can message me. 

 

Hm. 

 

Maybe you could do some sort of ... Secene analysis. 

Write down the key elements of every Scene Naruto and Sakura had with each other and write scenes with the same core elements, wich fit your characters. 

[TheFirstEvil100]

See, the difference is that I don't put the blame solely on Sakura for this and I tend to blank out the last few chapters of the manga and Burrito because that is not my girl. That's not the girl who I watched grow from a lovestruck wannabe ninja to a powerful, compassionate, independent woman who surpassed her Sannin mentor.  I lay the blame where it truly belongs, at the feet of Kishimoto and SP.  

Hell even Misty from Pokemon wouldn't love someone like Sasuke as she would see Sasuke for what he really is.

 

Yes Pokemon is simple but that is why it has lasted so long after all, I mean could go on forever saying how the friendships in pokemon are done better than Naruto mainly with the old Trio of pokemon.

Edited by TheFirstEvil100, 20 September 2017 - 03:30 PM.

[Gurmeet]

Oh enough you have no idea what love is do you even have a boyfriend would you pick a boy that was nothing but a kitten to you would you, so in your own messed up way I can be a kitten to any women so long as I don't go out with them, my mum and nan taught me to respect women and not trat them like kitten that was on my shoe.
 
So if you even read the manga you would see that all throught part 1 Sasuke hated her he treated her like kitten.

You're bashing her even I don't agree with her points but that doesn't give the right to bash her. Same to analyzer.

[Gurmeet]

This is a better source of blame, (Though the Sakura at the end is a powerful, compassionate, independent woman who surpassed her Sannin mentor). These things do not cease because of her choice of love interest. 
 

 
1: This is objectively false, because this shallow crush, fangirling if you will, grows into genuine love and care for him. 
 
2: Yes, Sasuke tried to kill her, they were enemies at the time. But if this constitutes abuse, because they are enemies, then so does NS and SNS, ignoring tropes, because you are ignoring a trope at play here. But because none of these are abusive, SS can't be either. Those that do support it do not support it because of the violence they engage as enemies either. 
 
3: Except SS did not exist because of just good looks. It doesn't fit the parameters you are constructing. The quote has been used and misunderstood to death, and still, here is the misunderstood quote about not moving on from true love. I understood the quote. If you are really in love with a guy, even if the relationship ends, that love doesn't just disappear. 
 
4: The answer is yes, because he said so. Twist it as much as you want, it still is true. We know why he left. We know Sarada is not Karin's child. We know that the conspiracy put in place for your fourth point doesn't hold water, because it really fails to explain that he left for mission reasons supported by evidence in the source.
 
5: The thing is, it is objectively two sided. Her fans do think on Sasuke's feelings, this is probably the argument they are fielded the most and they discuss the most. The manga later proves them true, as they have been saying for sometime. There's nothing to support Boruto and Sarada are potentially being fielded together for marketing reasons, but there's quite a bit to support their parents were put together as planned early on, and development to get them from start to finish. 
 
The later materials are successful. The anime is one of the most watched on streaming in Asia, and I've sourced this. The movies have made more than their predecessors. We can debate the quality, but financially and viewership wise, these are a success. 
 
None of Sakura's power, self-emancipation, or respect are lost by choosing Sasuke. They have nothing to do with that choice, even. Her power is still there, she's not a slave in any sense of that word, and she still has self-respect. 
 
The thing is, there isn't much NS non-platonic dev as people claim, nor can it be sourced or claimed to be his plan, when he states otherwise. One can plan a couple, but not imagine how they got together in detail, which is what Kishimoto is saying. 
 
NS didn't get "ruined" by other pairings, NS didn't exist like that. And the plot was never really about X and Y, and X settles with Z. It was really about Y. X settling with Z is the background of things. 
 
To conclude, SS is by no means "slavery', and no means "abusive. Not saying you should like it, or let your daughter read it, I'll have no issues with mine reading it, because I know it won't have that sort of great impact on who they choose as a love interest, and if I did, I could read it with them. 
 
I am though ,trying to point out that some of these things you are throwing out there are perhaps false, when we see X and Y and Z details you perhaps did not consider.

When does it shows her shallow love has become genuine love. Don't interpt show scenes from manga.

Edited by Gurmeet, 20 September 2017 - 04:20 PM.

[Qia]

Honestly, I think it's best to agree to disagree when it comes to something as complex as love (romantic love specifically) because, for the people that view Sasuke's actions as unforgivable, it's nonsensical that anyone would still romantically love him seeing how much he's changed from what they knew of him. Thus, Sakura's love appears to be shallow in this sense. There are also other people, like myself, that are in the situation where Sakura's love for Sasuke has always left a bitter taste in our mouths, since even in her second confession to him she sort of puts herself down a little for not being able to save him (when IMO it's not really so important that it should say anything about her as a person). On the other side, you'll have people that, of course, disagree with these views based on their own view of love. And...I just don't see any point in arguing about what love is when it's so different for everyone. 

Edited by Qia, 20 September 2017 - 04:38 PM.

[Kagomaru]

Hell even Misty from Pokemon wouldn't love someone like Sasuke as she would see Sasuke for what he really is.

 

Yes Pokemon is simple but that is why it has lasted so long after all, I mean could go on forever saying how the friendships in pokemon are done better than Naruto mainly with the old Trio of pokemon.

The only Sasuke equivalent in Pokemon that I can think of is Paul,  and no one likes Paul in-universe and out.  His reception was met with such toxicity from the fanbase that he was cut out of ten episodes that he was originally meant to be a part of because Nintendo found out just how despised he was for his personality and treatment towards Pokemon.

 

But yeah, it says something when a show like Pokemon has more common sense than Naruto.

 

As for Analyzer, try to avoid bashing her.  It's understandable that you dislike her and disagree with her opinions, but you know on this forum we set an environment where we respect the members that frequent here.  Just put her on Ignore since arguing with her is fruitless and you can avoid a potential headache.

[Riverkid]

 If we are saying Sasuke is abusive, then every Team 7 bonds, including NS, is -also- abusive. Throw the trope argument at me, but the thing is, the spiraling down into darkness is -also- a trope. So if we are applying this label regardless of trope, then NS is -also- abusive. But see 1: It's not, and this is not. 

You can't say that every bond within Team 7 is abusive if we state that Sasuke is abusive. Its a lame argumentation to protect Sasuke by putting him in the same spot as anyone else without clear informations. 

However you are right by telling that he isn't abusive. Atleast not until Chapter 700. Sasuke was always honest with his words and always made clear that he has no interest in Sakura. It doesn't make him abusive when Sakura, despite being told that she sould stop hitting on Sasuke, is still trying to get him. 

The problematic situation is Sasuke suddenly having interest in Sakura, which is out of his Character and clearly out of any development shown within the narrative Intent. The Combination of his first Goal "rebuilding his clan" and his desire to act outside of Konoha most of the time does leads the way of him just using Sakura for his own Goals and his preferred cirumstances. This view is much more clearer and reasoned than the view of him having a healthy and fair relationship with Sakura.

 

 

 

1: Early on in the manga, the label of shallow applies. The point is Sakura's feelings grow from a crush into love. Kakashi did state Sakura's feelings did change, they -were- shallow, and became more.

Thats a questionable statement, and a poor one too if you take Kakashi as an analysis standpoint. You tried to dismantle Point 5 by saying "Sai is inept at social understanding, which puts his validity of assessing the relationship into question". It could have been used on this statement too since Kakashi is socially repellent and similiar to Sai in terms of showing emotions. But thats just a tunnelvisioned analysis by yours trying to overlight your argumentations.

Its also questionable from a logical standpoint. How does her feelings towards Sasuke grow into "love" without any interactions with him ? The only interactions between Sakura and Sasuke in Shippudden were negative based and put Sakura in real danger, not only risking her own life but also ones of her friends.

It doesn't make sense that the feeling of someone is growing larger just because the referring person is heading down a dark path. It maby grows the need of taking more care and the concern of that said person. But initially love? There is nothing to explain this lackluster development. And a quote from Kakashi is not enough to clear something that strange.

 

 

 

No, he did not fall in love with Hinata out of "guilt". There's no evidence to support the interpretation. The Genjutsu does not -make- him do anything, it shows him memories, and Naruto begins to fall in the love he already had. There's nothing to support a bitter ending that Naruto did not even want to go to his wedding, Naruto is not about that level of conspiracy unhappiness, 700, the Last, the end of Shippuden are all portrayed as happy endings

You question the evidence of someone elses argumentation, which is correct and right. However where is your evidence of your argumentation for "the love he already had" ? There are no clear signs and development from the Naruto-centric view to have a romantic based relationship/intereste towards Hinata. 

The most important thing which needs to be questioned are the weak feelings from Naruto, that even a Genjutsu is needed to make him somehow realize that his feelings for Hinata are suddenly love. You don't just "love" someone after realizing memories or situations. Love is a growing experience, and not a sudden reaction just because you realized something. The Time for his Love to scale are shorter than my shorts, and that doesn't sound right and profound.

The rest of your statement is just pointless, trying to state that a non-romantical ending with Hinata would lead to a bitter-sweet ending. Refusing the alternative that a happy-end without NH would be possible just to overlight your argumentation.

 

 

 

He does get hit (Which is what it really is, hit) for joking about it. It's exactly in line with before. She does not directly say no, but if she did, the Red Herring wouldn't work at all. Saying he was dead serious is disproven chapters later after Naruto watches Sakura take down one of the Ten Tails's Spawns, thinking he can't tease her anymore. Side note: We = us as Readers. 

Your analysis to disprove something is quite laughable. Naruto never stated that he likes to tease Sakura in such ways, nor was it showed during 700 chapters. He is more or less even scared of Sakuras fury outburst, so where are his ambitions to provoce such emotions ? Naruto rarely/never acted out of his usual behaviours just to tease someone else, that would be just out of his character. The only way Naruto teases someone is within some rivalry-settings (Naruto / Kiba) (Naruto / Sasuke) etc.

 

 

 

5: Skipped this one for whatever reason. The word is like in that chapter, not love. Sai is inept at social understanding, which puts his validity of assessing the relationship into question, rather than reinforcing the conclusion. Naruto does not confirm anything to him either

I don't know the debated topic to that point, so i can't argue that. You are right, he never clearly confirmed things. For me it was just another showcase of him saying "i need to bring Sasuke back first"-obesession. 

 

 

 

6: She is giving these reasons to persuade him. The error is way too much zoom in your argument that misses the context. The ploy is to get him to stop going after Sasuke, because she felt bad about it. The thing is she did not understand Naruto here, Sai did not understand Naruto either. Misunderstanding and underestimating Naruto is a common subtheme. 

correct.

 

 

 

Well yeah, she is asking a personal question, which could have been played up to be entirely different as you are seeing it. Instead, it's a comical moment that has no development weight. (This is why I would argue that NS doesn't have the development a lot of people says it does, at least not in the way they think it does)

Nothing to add to the first part. However you stating that NS doesn't have the development a lot people says is just the same of the lackluster development between NH you always try to highlight as an profound development. 

There are more things going on between NS within the 700 chapters than any other potential pairings.

 

 

 

the hospital scene though afterwards does much to show that Sakura still loves Sasuke, and this isn't going to go anywhere, and we really don't see any further dev after this

love  "crush". The reason we don't see anything lies in Kishimotos writing, which is largely critizied by alot people. This results into people trying to execute some major improvements as an idea/suggestion. If we want to be honest and clear, with those well thought improvements NS would make alot more sense and would fit more to the healthy story as it was. However thats of course just the preference of each individual, thats why this Fanclub exist to gather the same likes.

i still smell that you don't really fit here

 

 

 

Our difference isn't our ship, it's that I support the ending, so naturally I am at odds with those who don't like it. I have taking the time to show how NH do dev, even stated they have more than any other pairing

The difference solely lies in the analysis and execution of writing-knowledge with a lot room of errors. Your biggest problem is you tunnelvisioned analysis, and you trying to overlight your argumentations with unhealthy and unreasonable executions.

Don't need to repeat this aspect since many other, including myself pointed your tunnelvisioned view on NH mutliple times out. 

 

 

 

I can say that, and still ship NS. I can believe that, and still ship NS. It doesn't matter. The point is we are both fans, I just love the end, and you do not.

Its your right to love whatever you want, even if it doesn't make sense.
Because as we know from Naruto, things doesnt have to make sense.. because Kishimoto likes to do kitten. He is just doing them to provide fanservice content for the audience. Everyone who says that his writing isn't affected by a fanservice drive is just a stubborn and blinded fan/person in my eyes. 
 

[lupina]

When does it shows her shallow love has become genuine love. Don't interpt show scenes from manga.

 

It is never shown, just like Narutos supposed love to Hinata within the original manga. You just have to assume it is there, because otherwise, SS would even more shallow and ridiculus. 

 

(In other words: Bad writing) 

 

 

 

The answer to that is because Naruto was falling in love he already had.

 

This supposed Explanation is contradioctory in itself, wich is why so many people call BS on it. You don't need to "fall into something" if you were already there the whole time. 

 

I have never ever seen or heard of someone who dosen't know or failed to realize what romantic love is or just "didn't get it" when someone tells them straight into their face that he/she is in love with him/her.

You might have other responsiblities in your life at the moment and don't have time to focus on a relstionship - but at a certain age (if you are not severly ill), hormones will kick in, no matter if you had role models who "taught" you how this works or not. 

Edited by lupina, 20 September 2017 - 07:11 PM.

[Riverkid]

 

The argument was SS is an abusive relationship, and I countered if we are saying this is the case, by the criteria introduced, SNS and NS are also abusive relationsips, since we are ignoring tropes. Yes, in the SNS case, Sasuke would be the abuser again, and in the NS case, it would be Sakura. I don't believe any of these are cases of abuse, however. 

How does sakura abuse Naruto when she does care for him ? And how is that even near the qual ecase compared to Sasuke? 

 

The case in 699 and every prior instance is different. The former is actually romantic initiation, the others are begging him to stay. Sasuke's response is not OOC, we can make a case that he does have feelings, but does not allow himself to feel. To say this is OOC ignores the change Sasuke just went through, where the obstacles preventing the bond are conquered. (Considering this was Kishimoto's plan, this -is-, factually, the narrative intent, so SS happening -cannot- go against that.) There's no image or intention or meaning shown that even suggests he is using Sakura. This isn't stated, shown, or suggested anywhere in the later material. 

 

I didn't say that there are hints, otherwise i would have provided those hints. I explained why it 'looks' more like that than the other way.

However you are just making a "case".

 

 

Kakashi, who has been the team's mentor for years, and is not socially inept. Sai, who is a very recent team-mate, and is socially inept. If they said two different things, who would you believe? Further, that Sai's words were all dealt with in the False Confession really makes him not usable. Kakashi's was just confirmed, objectively. Further, "Socially repellant" has nothing to do with reading and understanding people. 

 

Just being a mentor doesnt mean you are experienced and know about everything. Kakashi gets criticized alot for being a bad mentor since he neglected Sakura and Naruto. The mentor of Naruto was Jirayja, and the Mentor of Sakura was Tsunade. So don't make a special case for him. 
 

They don't have zero interaction, we are ignoring the Chuunin Exams here, and these aren't "negative based". I will say, have said, that all Team 7 bonds suffer in their root development, including NS's friendship mind, and needed another Arc. The next error is attributing the feelings to grow larger because Sasuke is going down a darker path. That is not said as the reason why. We see that Sakura's feelings grow into love. We don't see why, so we can't say because Sasuke falls into darkness, but we know Sakura loves him before he leaves, so connecting this to darkness doesn't really work. Kakashi is more or less just stating what has been shown, over and over again, that Sakura loves Sasuke. Not as a crush, as genuine, enduring love. 

 

i wrote "in shippuden", pls read before you write

 

You are right, you don't just suddenly love someone. The answer to that is because Naruto was falling in love he already had. The source of that is the Last. The last explains it as that. Retrospectively then we source the manga as that growing development of love. It's an interpretation in line with many theorists that made -during- the serialization of the manga. Following on from the Naruto-centric view, if I can show a clear dev of Naruto going from "dark, weird" to admiring Hinata and her strength, at the very least, to arguing actua love, tying it to the pain arc and Pain's words and the page of the worst feelings ever felt, there is your dev, your change.

The answer isn't there. My whole critic was that his love isn't profound if a genjutsu is needed to make him realize that. Showing him memories where he doesn't notice Hinatas feelings most of the time is just pointless. He didn't notice it until the pain-arc, and even after that he didn't put more thought in that matter within the narrative intent. If you don't notice something, how can your feelings grow on that? thats dumb. 
 

And an ending without NH would be bittersweet, for Hinata specifically, anyway, assuming she is alive. We would have all this panel time focus, on a -side- character, but it would end in tragic unrequited love. Kishimoto has tied love into this tragic enduring thing, which is one's biggest hint pairing wise. Of course you could add a bit of light at the end, but it would still be bittersweet. Nothing wrong with that sort of ending, but that's not what Kishimoto had in mind with this subplot. 

Its not a happy end because Hinata doesn't get the boyfriend she wants ? does the show is called "Hinata" or what ? There is nothing wrong when her feelings for naruto solely kept her pushing towards being a strong shinboi, and let it  leave it like that. Again refusing alternatives to overlight your argumentation. 
 

For the last part, I sourced it. Naruto in the manga says he needs to stop teasing Sakura after seeing her power displayed on one of the Ten Tails. He recently just teased her with the comment he made to his father. 

it only works if Naruto was teasing her on prupose in such ways. The only source you have is that he said that he needs to stop teasing her. until you can't provide a source where we see that Naruto only do that to tease her its pointless.

 

Between NS? What exactly is going on between NS? Certainly almost nothing in the last two hundred chapters plot wise, bar, participating in the war and fighting Kaguya, but that's not speciifcally just between them. Moving Three hundred before that, besides the False Confession Arc, there again, isn't anything going on "between" NS. We have some things at the beginning of part two, and that's really it for part two besides the later Land of Iron material, that's NS specific. 

Even if there was nothing in the last 200 chapters, it still overtakes the amount of NH-development. Sakura and Naruto had a good basis for a relationship because of how close they have been most of the time. Hinata and Naruto weren't really close to eachother for 700 chapters, only little moments which weren't developed any further within the story (only in the last). pls open up your tunnelvision. - pointless
 

There is a lot going on with the two characters, specifically more than anyone else, since Naruto is the protagonist, and Sakura the heroine, but not with eachother. 

thanks for supporting my previous argumentation that both of them were more close to eachter than anyone else, which provides the best basis for to build up a relationship.  And no, it doesn't necessarly provide a relationship, thats true.. but its more developed than NH.

 

In this same fold though, this writing is praised. The NS changes would be good for making NS work. Whether that is better than the oriignal is subjective, we can't know or see this for sure, it is a what if. But the general NS ideas thrown out there, would work for the NS narrative. But there isn't an NS Narrative with them ending together in canon.

I don't care about preferred pairing-outcomes. Too much fanservice influence in his writing hurt the story in many ways.

 

I strongly disagree the story is "unhealthy", stories don't really work with a label like that. 
 

A story is usally unhealthy when fanservice is leading the story, and bad writing ofcourse. I wouldn't have a problem with NH, or with no-pairings unless the story was well written.
 

I'm an NS fan. The only aspect that conflicts with my "fit" is that I enjoy the manga as a whole, and the ending. 

nothing wrong with that
 

There are some things that don't make sense in Naruto. The ending, frankly speaking, isn't one of them. This isn't tunnel-vision, and my argumentation and facts are really just the Author's information and their facts.

Sadly it its, read the history

 

Still, thanks for taking the time to reply to my piece. 

np

[My Living Curse]

 
Being a little kitten who still takes it up the ass from sasuke like everyone in this Damn series.naruto's no hero he's a joke even in that scene where kauri beat him granted I did like seeing that now. That and him begging the ay to forgive sasuke and not kill him was were naruto's character really started to go down hill more. I'm glad ay didn't listen to naruto's crap
 

God he's such a kitten, you wouldn't see haru, Ichigo, Natsu, yusuke do something like. Further proving naruto is one of the worse heroes ever. The linkara "our hero ladies and gentlemen "joke really fits here, cause naruto is so out of character. I'll give Danzo one point he finally order a hit on sasuke something that tsunade should have when he's ass crossed the border or when he tried killing naruto, but no attempted murder and going rogue cause he's part of a clan doesn't allow that if you aren't itachi.

 

 

After all the emotions, the struggles, everything Naruto did to grow strong to defend his village, the dreams to become Hokage, he puts the Sauce above all else. I can't fathom going from the Pain arc and then seeing Naruto get beat up by Karui for Sasuke, grovel in front of another Kage for Sasuke and faint when the truth hits him for Sasuke. It's embarrassing and its not the Naruto I grew up with.

 

Besides, Sai says it the best:

 

[lupina]

 

 

That the Last shows Naruto finally realizing he loved Hinata for so long,

 

If you would ask a neutral reader who they think Naruto is in love with, without them knowing about "The Last" or the last chapter of the original Series, everybody would say: "Sakura, of course". 

Why? Because it has been teased and shown consistantly through the entire Manga. 

 

Writing is about showing, not telling! 

 

And because of that - this suppsoed "Explanation" is highly implausible, up to the point that it seems more likely that we are just being lied to. 

[TheFirstEvil100]

I think I would like to Quote the 4th Doctor "There's no point in being grown up if you can't be childish sometimes."

[lupina]

 

Are you sure about "constantly"? In the last hundred chapters, it barely gets any attention. A Red herring, and the rest of the things pointed out are misinterpreted. In the hundred chapters before? Nothing really. And in the hundred before that? Some deep sinking.

 

 

Yes, I am. 

Pages, chapters and panels to prove this have been spoonfed to you a dozen times by different users here, so I'll just leave it like that. 

 

 

 

No, if a fan read 699 chapters, their prediction may not at all be what you think it is. 

In fact, when a poll was made in the last two months of the manga's life on Naruto Forums, NH had the most votes. Saw patterns in other places similarly that were not solely shipping based. While only so valid as a way of polling "neutrals" (A term I find silly personally), but I'm making a point that many fans did -not- predict an NS outcome, or that Naruto loved Sakura at that point anymore. 

 

A neutral reader is someone who dosen't care if Naruto ends up with Sakura or Hinata - just for clarification. 

 

I assume you can't provide any panel where Naruto supposedly fell out of love with Sakura and start thinking about Hinata instead. Therefore, at this point, this assumption can't be based on anything more than pure speculation and/or wishful thinking. 

Edited by lupina, 20 September 2017 - 11:05 PM.

[VanitasDS76491]

After all the emotions, the struggles, everything Naruto did to grow strong to defend his village, the dreams to become Hokage, he puts the Sauce above all else. I can't fathom going from the Pain arc and then seeing Naruto get beat up by Karui for Sasuke, grovel in front of another Kage for Sasuke and faint when the truth hits him for Sasuke. It's embarrassing and its not the Naruto I grew up with.
 
Besides, Sai says it the best:

 

Yes sai said it best in that panel , and I found to be a better friend to naruto than sasuke ever was.
Again it's why I said naruto is the most irresponsible hero ever more so than spiderman is especially during one more day for spiderman where he acted like a child during the whole 4 issues. I can watch kauri beating up naruto now cause really he deserves it. It's like lives in his own whole and won't face reality as shown him passing out when thinking about having to kill sasuke. He can't have things both ways if he wants to become hokage he needs to give up bringing sasuke, if he wants to bring sasuke back he needs to give up being hokage. What I want is for naruto to be written like a god Damn adult already, if the writers still want him to be a kid than why isn't he still a kid. Yes I quoted linkara from his one more day review cause he's revelation about spiderman is accurate to how I see naruto now. A joke a fat kittening joke that's all naruto is now.