54213 replies to this topic

[LuckyChi7]

Has Ash even aged? Good god, I remember when Pokemon was all the rage on Cartoon Network back in like...2002 or 2003. 

 

 

According to Sun and Moon he's still 10 which is really sad cause in the XY/XYZ he looks kind older like say 13 or 14.   

[Yyubie]

That scene really makes me mad , why Naruto have to clean sasuke's mess ?? Bow , crying , begging for him in front of Raikage ... that is way pass friendship line , that is just idiotic. Naruto always and already looks pathetic enough and kishi makes him even more pathetic in land of iron arc , and then now even more pathetic workaholic , drunk ... sad.

[Kagomaru]

On Pokemon: Don't expect that to change unless Nintendo decides to fire the current producer. The producer has said that he will never allow Ash to grow old, maintain a love interest or become a Pokemon Master until the series actually ends.  And he's been saying that for the last couple of decades.  He even fired the original team of writers from the first three seasons (Indigo up to Johto) because they wanted to write arcs that would have Ash actually mature, become a Pokemon Master and settle back into Pallet Town.

 

As for Naruto...yeah, he was pretty pathetic.   I understand  him feeling distressed over the issue, but hyperventilating and begging?  No, even huge advocators of friendship like Sora, Natsu and Luffy wouldn't react like that over a friend if said-friend committed heinous crimes and was trying to start a war that would lead to the demise of innocent people.

Edited by Kagomaru, 18 September 2017 - 06:17 PM.

[LuckyChi7]

On Pokemon: Don't expect that to change unless Nintendo decides to fire the current producer. The producer has said that he will never allow Ash to grow old, maintain a love interest or become a Pokemon Master until the series actually ends.  And he's been saying that for the last couple of decades.  He even fired the original team of writers from the first three seasons (Indigo up to Johto) because they wanted to write arcs that would have Ash actually mature, become a Pokemon Master and settle back into Pallet Town.

 

As for Naruto...yeah, he was pretty pathetic.   I understand  him feeling distressed over the issue, but hyperventilating and begging?  No, even huge advocators of friendship like Sora, Natsu and Luffy would react like that over a friend if said-friend committed heinous crimes and was trying to start a war that would lead to the demise of innocent people.

 

 

When it comes to Pokemon I feel the closest we've seen when it comes to him maturing is through Diamond and Pearl and particularly the XY/XYZ series. That's about it , and they did kinda confirm a love interest for Ash in that series, but that's really up for debate amongst the pokemon community whether or not its canon that is .  I'd say it's semi-canon  like   so in the middle is where I'd say. 

 

 

 

I completely on that same notion when it comes to Naruto like it didn't bother me as much, but  there was so much he learned from The Pain Arc, and I feel it didn't really apply in the last half of Shippuden and it's unfortunate cause you'd think Naruto would experience the same way Gon did in Hunter x Hunter, Yusuke from Yu-YU Hakushou,  Haru after the experience  he had with his father during Rave Master,  Renton  after finding out about Eureka's secret, Yato during the Underworld Arc in Noragami, the list just goes on and on, but you get the point. 

Edited by LuckyChi7, 18 September 2017 - 06:03 PM.

[My Living Curse]

 

All because Sasuke had to be killed, and he lies there like a little b itch  worrying for his so called "best friend"  Your Hero who defeated Pain everyone. Just got defeated by the simple way of telling him that Sasuke needs to die. 

 

Ah yes. The continuation of the downward spiral. It was also embarrassing watching him get willingly beat up into a bloody pulp by Karui in the name of Sauceke. I mean you just saved an entire village and gained the recognition you've sought for years. What are you doing?!

[Catra]

not even, i remember back in 1997-8 where it first blew up and man...don't even get me started when the movies came out. every kid lost their freaking minds. mewtwo was the absolute beast, he was the "frieza" of pokemon (only more mature of course with the lack of temper tantrums). if you had mewtwo in your gameboy or card deck you were king of the jungle jym XD

Edited by Catra, 18 September 2017 - 06:26 PM.

[Gravenimage]

Has Ash even aged? Good god, I remember when Pokemon was all the rage on Cartoon Network back in like...2002 or 2003. 

 

Nope, not since Pokemon premiered in 97.

[Shadow Wolf]

I'm not sure where you are getting with your chapter 183 and love for food parallel, however.

And with that statement you have just become a hanging scroll in the wall I and thus, there's no need for me to debate with you anymore.

 
 
When it comes to Pokemon I feel the closest we've seen when it comes to him maturing is through Diamond and Pearl and particularly the XY/XYZ series. That's about it , and they did kinda confirm a love interest for Ash in that series, but that's really up for debate amongst the pokemon community whether or not its canon that is .  I'd say it's semi-canon  like   so in the middle is where I'd say. 
 
 
 
I completely on that same notion when it comes to Naruto like it didn't bother me as much, but  there was so much he learned from The Pain Arc, and I feel it didn't really apply in the last half of Shippuden and it's unfortunate cause you'd think Naruto would experience the same way Gon did in Hunter x Hunter, Yusuke from Yu-YU Hakushou,  Haru after the experience  he had with his father during Rave Master,  Renton  after finding out about Eureka's secret, Yato during the Underworld Arc in Noragami, the list just goes on and on, but you get the point. 

Which is why many of us believe that Naruto had a coherent storyline all the way until the Pain Arc. After that the foundation seems to start going downhill, for many characters begin regressing the old habits and forget what their vision was in the first place.

Still, I will never regret reading Naruto. And I will never stop loving NS, because up to there, the story was pretty amazing and of course, with the disappointing ending I learned to be prepared for anything when reading a story. Plus there are several fanfics out there which are pretty accurate to what could have been the true ending.

[HalfDemonInuyasha]

Intro-See, that's the thing. You're happy with her being "a" medic, when we actually see that she could be "The" medic. There's a reason why Tsunade was regarded as the best in the medical business (even going so far as to cure Rock Lee from his fractures), and even though Sakura both received praise from Sasori and helped in the war, there are only a few arguments here and there about her medical skills. She could have easily be more than that. You could build a whole new arc based on her ability to have acquired recognition in the whole narutoverse as "The" #1 medical Ninja. But nope... Just another medic in the business. And BTW, yes, I know she founded a hospital, but really, that pales in comparison to everything else she could have done with her skills.

1-Hah, I won't even debate on this point: Jyra/Tsu, Obi/Rin, Yahi/Konan, Mina/Kushina... All of them pointed to a chemistry between a loud person and a Tsundere and if you can't see that, then there is no point in discussing this.

2-Character completion is not as much about the end pairings, but about the characters themselves, and you didn't answer my question of Naruto pursuing what could be considered "peace", so you missed the point entirely. Plus you can easily track the loss of the argument I made earlier during the final Ninja War, in where Naruto was just trying to do everything on his own and save Sasuke instead of basically protecting the future of the world, even though it may be at the expense of even killing his best friend (all of these arguments presented evidently during the Gaara's arc, in where he protected the city of Sand, during Asuma's arc, in where he taught Shikamaru to protect the unborn children from Konoha and the world, and in the Pain Arc in where Tsunade protected everyone from Pain's attack).

2A/2C-The manga stated clearly that this was aimed towards NS, not only because Naruto thought of Sakura when asked this question (Zabuza arc), but also because he also thought of Sakura when fighting against Gaara. Plus in the scene where Sasuke reminds this to Sakura was during a Sakura flashback (her recalling what Sasuke said in chapter 144, before it moved on to the struggle of Sasuke for power), so your argument just fell flat, because it never applied to NH in the first place.

2B-Nor does it say in the manga that he loves Hinata either. And even though Sakura admits that Hinata loves Naruto (Pain Arc), both her and Said admit that Naruto loves Sakura (Kage Summit arc). Plus he also says that he doesn't feel worthy to confess to her because he can't keep his promises. And if he wasn't going to confess that he loves her, then what was he going to confess about anyway?

2D-Because just like Naruto, she wanted acknowledgement, not just from Naruto, but also from his family. And the best way to display that is to lead her clan, because when you lead, it means that the people you lead recognized you as a leader and a person of trust (recall Gaara's Arc and how he was recognized and how Naruto also wanted to be recognized).

3-Platonic, really? OK. Let's disregard that Sakura was wondering what she was feeling for Naruto ever since the Zabuza arc. Let's disregard her endearing smile shown in various scenes of the manga whenever Naruto stood up for her. Let's disregard what Yamato, Kakashi and Sai said about Naruto and Sakura's relationship. Let's disregard that in the worst of times they were there encouraging and strengthening each other. Basically, let's disregard any of the interactions between Naruto and Sakura and brand them all as Platonic Love because there was absolutely no indication of them showing feelings for each other even though many characters saw it during the course of the manga. Yup, let's disregard it all. oh, and btw:

Chapter 183: *After Naruto makes the promise of a lifetime*

*Sakura thinking* "He always knew... He always helped me"

A synonym of help is "unselfish"

Love for food: selfish

The Last Movie: Naruto thinks of love just like love for Ramen...

4-And... Which manga panels or conversations from the manga have you used during our conversation? I have quoted several chapters, quotes and arcs backing up my claims. What have you showed me using the manga? Just one statement where, although Naruto never says: I love Sakura, I already showed you with the manga that your comment falls short due to lack of evidence regarding Naruto not loving Sakura. So before you judge me, provide evidence yourself that all the arguments you use are backed by evidence from the manga.

Even in The Last, I don't recall Naruto ever explicitly saying that he "loves" Hinata; only that he was stupid for not realizing her feelings sooner, hence guilt and shame.
 

 

You know it's kinda sad when Pokemon handled the argument between Ash and Serena then Kishi did between Naruto and Sakura: 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I mean did let's not forget: 

 

 

 

 

All because Sasuke had to be killed, and he lies there like a little b itch  worrying for his so called "best friend"  Your Hero who defeated Pain everyone. Just got defeated by the simple way of telling him that Sasuke needs to die. 

 

 

That scene really makes me mad , why Naruto have to clean sasuke's mess ?? Bow , crying , begging for him in front of Raikage ... that is way pass friendship line , that is just idiotic. Naruto always and already looks pathetic enough and kishi makes him even more pathetic in land of iron arc , and then now even more pathetic workaholic , drunk ... sad.

Oh god, that scene is what REALLY affirmed to me how stupid it was that Naruto was made Kage so soon. This showed that he was nowhere near mentally ready. It showed that he was constantly living in a bubble world that Ay had just poked a huge hole in and let reality seep through, and Naruto just couldn't handle it. And it also showed how Naruto was being selfish and was incapable of not playing favorites when a Kage needs to be unbiased.
 

 

On Pokemon: Don't expect that to change unless Nintendo decides to fire the current producer. The producer has said that he will never allow Ash to grow old, maintain a love interest or become a Pokemon Master until the series actually ends.  And he's been saying that for the last couple of decades.  He even fired the original team of writers from the first three seasons (Indigo up to Johto) because they wanted to write arcs that would have Ash actually mature, become a Pokemon Master and settle back into Pallet Town.

 

As for Naruto...yeah, he was pretty pathetic.   I understand  him feeling distressed over the issue, but hyperventilating and begging?  No, even huge advocators of friendship like Sora, Natsu and Luffy wouldn't react like that over a friend if said-friend committed heinous crimes and was trying to start a war that would lead to the demise of innocent people.

Wow, didn't know that about Pokemon.

I can sort of understand why they want to keep Ash the same as he (and Pikachu) are the "faces" of Pokemon and can keep new generations of children coming, but on the other hand, I don't see why they can't do that with new main characters too. As I said not long ago, I ended up growing out of Pokemon after the first games / series because it was already getting stale and repetitive. They can change the location and they can change the Pokemon (and many aren't THAT much different from each other overall besides appearance), but in the end, a majority of it is still the exact same things as the beginning, and people like me quickly notice this as they grow up and start looking for much more substance (which I found in Digimon).

[BlackShirtGuy]

 

Wow, didn't know that about Pokemon.

I can sort of understand why they want to keep Ash the same as he (and Pikachu) are the "faces" of Pokemon and can keep new generations of children coming, but on the other hand, I don't see why they can't do that with new main characters too. As I said not long ago, I ended up growing out of Pokemon after the first games / series because it was already getting stale and repetitive. They can change the location and they can change the Pokemon (and many aren't THAT much different from each other overall besides appearance), but in the end, a majority of it is still the exact same things as the beginning, and people like me quickly notice this as they grow up and start looking for much more substance (which I found in Digimon).

Yeah, me neither.

The problem Pokemon has is that it's a series that refuses to grow, they have made  the same stuff for like 7 seasons and they will still keep at it for 7 more.
When the Kalos League Fiasco happened, I remember my initial reaction was simply laugh because I had stop watching it since DP, and I just felt sorry for those poor bastards who watched the entire arc only to see Ash fail AGAIN.
I hate the anime with a burning passion( I watch Sun and Moon sometimes though) but the moment Ash got screwed over at the Sinnoh league via a deus ex machinia with legendaries I freaking knew for a fact, Pokemon would never try to change or break the status quo EVEN if they make Ash win in Alola or something they are gonna keep making the same stupid kitten forever. Honestly, people are better reading the manga or watching the movies than watching the crappy anime make everything over and over and over and over...

[sushi.]

 

Or you could kindly elaborate? I stated it as thus so as to not assume meaning. But your choice.

Shadow wolf wrote a long reply to you. He did elaborate. You just want to go on and on and on.

 

In fact the vast majority on this forum that had a debate with you started with kindly ~elaborating. Then they stopped. Many have blocked you. Could you, perhaps, look in the mirror and ask yourself if there is something you should change about your posts. Or simply stop writing to people who ask you to stop. Which has now become, the vast majority. Shadow wolf is of the sweet and even-tempered here so the fact that you managed to chase him off should alarm you.

[Nostradamus]

Shadow wolf wrote a long reply to you. He did elaborate. You just want to go on and on and on.

 

In fact the vast majority on this forum that had a debate with you started with kindly ~elaborating. Then they stopped. Many have blocked you. Could you, perhaps, look in the mirror and ask yourself if there is something you should change about your posts. Or simply stop writing to people who ask you to stop. Which has now become, the vast majority. Shadow wolf is of the sweet and even-tempered here so the fact that you managed to chase him off should alarm you.

Beautifully said.

[Dalton.T.R]

Hell, even I just blocked her. And that's not usual for me. 

[Kagomaru]

Hell, even I just blocked her. And that's not usual for me. 

Same here.  In the forums I frequent, I rarely block anyone but what else can you do when you have a person who reflexively feels the need to argue with anyone who contradicts her with factual evidence, while providing very little to support her own distorted assertions. 

 

And that's all she does:

 

Give her panel scans,  she gives an alternative and embellished version of what's going on.

 

Present her with statements from an interview with the creator, she rejects it.

 

Provide her information from databooks that were written by the creator, she claims that they are insubstantial without giving a solid reason as to why.

 

"Objective and analytical"?   No, this is not the behavior of someone's trying offer a neutral and intellectual perspective.  

[Kagomaru]

Case in point.

[HalfDemonInuyasha]

Same here.  In the forums I frequent, I rarely block anyone but what else can you do when you have a person who reflexively feels the need to argue with anyone who contradicts her with factual evidence, while providing very little to support her own distorted assertions. 

 

And that's all she does:

 

Give her panel scans,  she gives an alternative and embellished version of what's going on.

 

Present her with statements from an interview with the creator, she rejects it.

 

Provide her information from databooks that were written by the creator, she claims that they are insubstantial without giving a solid reason as to why.

 

"Objective and analytical"?   No, this is not the behavior of someone's trying offer a neutral and intellectual perspective.  

 

 Same here. I used to be part of a Yu-Gi-Oh! site (literally had the most posts - over 30,000 - before leaving as it was all but dead) and constantly had arguments and debates with others over cards, Deck types, and whatnot, and even as annoying as some of those people got, I never blocked any of them.

[Shadow Wolf]

Shadow wolf wrote a long reply to you. He did elaborate. You just want to go on and on and on.
 
In fact the vast majority on this forum that had a debate with you started with kindly ~elaborating. Then they stopped. Many have blocked you. Could you, perhaps, look in the mirror and ask yourself if there is something you should change about your posts. Or simply stop writing to people who ask you to stop. Which has now become, the vast majority. Shadow wolf is of the sweet and even-tempered here so the fact that you managed to chase him off should alarm you.

Hehe, thanks for the compliments. Now I feel kinda embarrassed.

Going back and reading it, they were comparing a love for food with being helpful and altruistic. I do not think these two things link in the way the author suggests as I interpreted them...

as I interpreted them...

It just has come to the point where I have agreed to disagree Analyzer. Many of us fans here do not support the ending, so when we come across someone like you, I come to the conclusion that we just have different views on the manga, and as such we will never end debating if we keep going. You believe you're right while I believe I'm right, so I'll just leave the conversation there. And to answer your final question: I was just pointing a simple difference between selfish love (which was what Naruto said he expressed when he said that loving someone was I like loving ramen during the Last movie), and selfless love (which he expressed to many people in the universe, but especially towards Sakura when he promised to bring Sasuke back. And even though his promise was changed towards saving Sasuke because he wanted to, he still wanted to keep that promise for her too, which is an act of selfless love), which is a blatant contradiction regarding Naruto's character and personality between the manga and the movie. But since you do not agree with this point, for you believe differently, you concluded that NaruHina makes more sense than NaruSaku and you believe that no one in the Narutoverse is out of character at the end of the Naruto manga and in the present Boruto manga, then basically 95% of our debate is concluded there and thus, there is no need for me to talk further about any topic related to Naruto with you. Is not an act of arrogance but simply a conclusion that I do not need to debate with you anymore.

Edited by Shadow Wolf, 19 September 2017 - 01:44 AM.

[Gravenimage]

Hehe, thanks for the compliments. Now I feel kinda embarrassed.


It just has come to the point where I have agreed to disagree Analyzer. Many of us fans here do not support the ending, so when we come across someone like you, I come to the conclusion that we just have different views on the manga, and as such we will never end debating if we keep going. You believe you're right while I believe I'm right, so I'll just leave the conversation there. And to answer your final question: I was just pointing a simple difference between selfish love (which was what Naruto said he expressed when he said that loving someone was I like loving ramen during the Last movie), and selfless love (which he expressed to many people in the universe, but especially towards Sakura when he promised to bring Sasuke back. And even though his promise was changed towards saving Sasuke because he wanted to, he still wanted to keep that promise for her too, which is an act of selfless love), which is a blatant contradiction regarding Naruto's character and personality between the manga and the movie. But since you do not agree with this point, for you believe differently, you concluded that NaruHina makes more sense than NaruSaku and you believe that no one in the Narutoverse is out of character at the end of the Naruto manga and in the present Boruto manga, then basically 95% of our debate is concluded there and thus, there is no need for me to talk further about any topic related to Naruto with you. Is not an act of arrogance but simply a conclusion that I do not need to debate with you anymore.

 

Bold I think Analyzer is well aware she will keep on debating with us and there will never be an end to it because we will always disagree with her. The way I have come to see it she's only here to try and change our minds of the manga ending. She wants us to stop liking NS and like NH/SS instead. That's it she wants us to jump ships and she knows that's impossible but she's going to try anyway. I'm still wondering why she chose to come to this forum there are DOZENS of Naruto forums on the internet and she has to come to a NS one. Truth is she's wasting our time she will never convince me or anyone to accept the BS ending and the kitten pairings Kishimoto went with. I love NS and I will always love it, it's a million times better than NS/SS she will obviously disagree and guess what? I DON'T CARE. The only way she will leave this forum is if everyone and I do mean everyone no longer reply to her posts. As long as there are people replying to her, she will continue. If all of us ignore her then she might grow tire and hopefully leave. 

Edited by Gravenimage, 19 September 2017 - 03:35 AM.

[Shadow Wolf]

 
Bold I think Analyzer is well aware she will keep on debating with us and there will never be an end to it because we will always disagree with her. The way I have come to see it she's only here to try and change our minds of the manga ending. She wants us to stop liking NS and like NH/SS instead. That's it she wants us to jump ships and she knows that's impossible but she's going to try anyway. I'm still wondering why she chose to come to this forum there are DOZENS of Naruto forums on the internet and she has to come to a NS one. Truth is she's wasting our time she will never convince me or anyone to accept the BS ending and the kitten pairings Kishimoto went with. I love NS and I will always love it, it's a million times better than NS/SS she will obviously disagree and guess what? I DON'T CARE. The only way she will leave this forum is if everyone and I do mean everyone no longer reply to her posts. As long as there are people replying to her, she will continue. If all of us ignore her then she might grow tire and hopefully leave. 

As much as I dislike to play the Devil's Advocate, I have to do so now. Honestly, I don't wish for any person to leave if they consider themselves a NaruSaku fan. But I wish for people like Analyzer to just learn empathy when replying to others. Like I mentioned in our of my posts, many people come here to seek relief after being disappointed by the ending, and I believe almost every person found so is not just because they aren't happy that NS is together, but also because the story that some followed for more than 10 years came to a disappointing ending overall. However, suddenly a person like her arrives and says: "The ending is cohesive and everything makes sense", then of course there will be debates because it is actually the opposite view of the cast majority of the people hanging in the forums.

But despite all of this, I don't like it when people leave the forums. Someone I appreciated left the forums some years ago and I still feel partly guilty for it, although I was told that this was not my fault. I want any NS shipper to feel welcome, after all.

However, Analyzer is basically making everyone feel just like Kishimoto did when he said that fans just misread the manga. I don't wish for anyone to leave, but more to show empathy for those seeking hope regarding NaruSaku.

Nate River comes to mind when I think of this argument (Hi Nate :) ), and even tricksie sometimes (Hi tricksie. :) ). There have been points in where I have seen disagreements between them and other members of the forums, but I have seen that they have shown a limit of restraint in order to not cause the mess that is happening in this particular case.

So yeah, no need to agree, but no need to leave either. Just learn to convey hope to the members of this forum even though agreement may not be the way to do so. After all, after the ending, that is what most of the NS supporters come to this forum for. Kinda like a marriage: if winning at argument means putting distance in a marriage, then sometimes it is best to just drop the topic and strive for peace.

But anyway, I feel like this has gone on a tangent. Back to the thread:

It may have been discussed already, but just for topic: What elements would you change throughout the course of the manga to make NS the canon pairing?

[Catra]

sharing cuz i can