54213 replies to this topic

[VanitasDS76491]

right even though he pushed back a planet busting attack of vegeta's in the saiyan saga and witthstood kamehamehas beyond that magnitude, only reason he was worried about kid buu's was he wanted to save everyone. he could easily dodge the attacks with ease, and since in the beerus fight he withstood punches strong enough to create shockwaves to destroy the universe and that was in the previous weaker god form, and not counting zenkai boosts or super saiyan blue kaiokenx10, yeah pretty sure that outclasses the super nova feat, only way you beat that is superman supposedly being limitless. and I've already proven superman 1 million to be fake and fanmade using the actual panels.

A but off topic you see lucario vs renamon death battle cause it was good and it was just base from of the two.

[ThroughWithLove]

 

Here's the problem with both citations.

 

They aren't part of -this- arc.

 

Everyone here (including yourself) has referred to this arc as being the War arc. This is the first time I've heard anything about chasms (whatever that means). Thus, what we have here is a clear attempt to alter the definition of a term in order to suit your argument. In other words, what we have here is a classic case of Argumentum ad dictionarium. Or as I like to call it: Semanticaga. 

 

Here is the brass tacks: In preparation for the war, Naruto confronted his personal demons and overcame them both in confronting dark naruto as well as the kyuubi. During the war, Naruto faced death itself upon having the kyuubi ripped out of him and overcame it. Both moments are low points that Naruto, the hero, overcomes. Therefore, Naruto has complied with hero's journey trope. A trope which, by the way, is one of many ways to tell a story (One Punch Man, for example, craps all over this trope on a daily basis).

 

 

I really think a death of some character is important, and I don't think that should be cut out. Nor do I think Neji's death ineffectual. Of course, in your hatred of the manga, you might be missing that, particularly in your silly thoughts that I'd want a 15 page make out session (No thanks). I want plot and good story. This worked really well, particularly since unlike the Pain Arc, it wasn't undone. And no, the Pain Arc ins't really a reiteration here, bar a boosting NH moment. Naruto was alone in the pain Arc, and Hinata jumped in out of love. In this instance, all of Naruto's friends are putting their lives on the line, for him, and Neji did die. Hinata is reminding him of the meaning, of the why of this.

 

Naruto experienced the death of his entire village in the Pain arc. Learned to accept it. Learned to move on and still maintain his quest for peace. Nagato's deus ex machina BS occurred after the fact. So no, I don't buy Naruto spacing out like that with Neji's death and needing a good slap to get it together. It was a superfluous scene that accomplishes nothing beyond giving Naruto and Hinata a moment. And even that doesn't matter in the end since Naruto needs an entire movie to fall in love with Hinata.

 

 

Who cares about the maggots, or anyone else. 

 

I care. Maggots are loathsome little things and I prefer to have as little to do with them as possible.

 

This is a discussion between us. I'd love to explore this much further. If you're tired though, that's fine.

 

 When you've reached the point where you're trying to dispute the meaning of the word "arc', I don't see what else there is to explore. Antics like that not only tire me; they outright bore me to be honest.  It's one of the many problems with exclusively arguing online. You never really get a measure of the do's and don'ts to debate and end up using tactics that would never have any chance of convincing a judge or a crowd of people. Instead, it's all "I say I've won, therefore I've won." I should know. Way back when I first did LD debate in highschool, I relied on picking apart the topic with semantics. Even carried and quoted my copy of Black's Law dictionary. I was so smug with confidence that I had no idea. No judge went for that and I couldn't even make it past the preliminary rounds. Learned my lesson real fast.

Edited by ThroughWithLove, 01 August 2017 - 04:20 PM.

[Riverkid]

Well I think by now everyone knows Analyzer speaks nothing but BS.

Analyzer isn't talking 'BS'. The Person doesn't want to debate about Naruto, but more or less wants to debate against other opinions and argumentations in general. 

Example 1

My Quote

The 2nd most used reason to why someone should let a Character die is when the Writer wants to highlight a tragic moment during the Story, or to highlight an Antogonist more. The benefit from that is you can build up the tension towards the antagonist or provide a memorable impression on the died character. [Example 1: Pain killed Jiraiya. It was a memorable Arc because of the death of Jiraiya, and it improved Pain characterwise to be a worthy and serious Antagonist. It also improved the build up towards the Naruto-vs.-Pain fight at the end.] Thats the main reason to why so many People remembers the Pain-Arc as one of the best Arc, if not the best Arc.

 

Her Quote (reply on my Quote)

Jirayai's death is actually common in the hero's journey where you have a mentor (Master) dying by a man later the apprentice avenges against them. It's an easy set-up: It sets stakes higher, and Naruto is put into a place to learn the skills to defeat Pain as fast as possible

 

"The 2nd most Reason" = "Jiraiyas death is acutally common"

I don't know why this Person just re-wrote my whole Argumentation to her own version. It provides nothing to the debate since this is just repeating what i wrote, just in her own version and more specified to the Narutoverse, while i generalized it more.

Example 2

My Quote 

The most used reason to why someone should let a Character die is when the Writer doesn't need the Character anymore, because he clearly doesn't want to utilize the Character further in his Story. The benefit from that is you can open up a new chapter or use the open room to introduce new Characters to fill the gap  [Example : Madara died during the War-Arc in order to let Kaguya fill the gap of being the end-Boss]

 

Her Quote (reply to my Quote)

On this topic, Madara's death does more than just pave the way for Kaguya, for example. It is a Twist, a betrayal that you didn't see coming. The Stakes and power level are set higher. Granted, Kaguya's introduction/execution could have been slightly better, but it worked 

 

Again, just re-writing my Argumentation instead this time adding more specific points on top my argumention towards the Narutoverse, while my argumention was 'again' just a generalized one. Her reply to this matter provides nothing to the debate 'again'. 

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Obviously i don't really know the answer to why this Person is doing that. I claim that this Person just wants to re-write/change my argumentation, so this Person can atleast say that she added someting too on this matter for the debate... while in fact she provided nothing to the debate  because she more or less just repeated what i wrote.

She also writes them in a way to look 'knowing' in that matter, or even tries to build up a 'experienced' look on her argumentation while the 'content' itself of her argumentation is just below average, or even 'BS'. Sometimes she also tries to add things like "I'm a writer too, so i know these things" "If you would have done a workout (like me)..." to have more effects to look 'experienced'

I guess she needs to do this becaue her own argumenation lacks convicitions and strength.

But lets keep going...

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Her Quote

It's notable that Sasuke offers to die at his point. Naruto though, doesn't want him to, and says no

 

I mean.. WTF is this ? 'Sasuke offers to die, but Naruto says no' Hello? Thats what Kishimoto wrote, and we are debating about his Writing. She can't just bring his 'intention' to why he 'wrote' it like that as an argumenation, since we all already know what his intention was, and already debating it. 

We all already know that he 'wrote' it like that so Sasuke doesn't die. We are debating about wheter or not it would make more sense or not to let him die instead, so she just can't say "but, Kishimotos intention was to let him live.. so this is the better outcome of course" since his 'Intention' is also a matter of the debated topic (the intention of the writing is 'always' a matter of the debated topic)

Her Quote

Which is better -is- in the eye of the beholder

 

Again coming up with this argumenation for like the 100th time. Do you want to see the comparison ?

My Argumentation

The Logical/Psychological Persepective:

Sasuke never had to deal with the Aftermath of his actions. No one cared when he killed Orochimaru. No one cared when he killed Itachi. No one cared when he killed Danzo. All his attempts to kill Konoha-Ninjas or Ninjas from allied-Nations (Naruto, Sakura, Kakashi, Sai, Yamato, Killer-Bee, Raikage etc.) weren't successfull. Its like Kishimoto made sure that Sasuke only success in killing the 'bad-guys', but gives Plotarmor to everyone as soon he fights someone from Konoha (except Danzo).

How does a Person regrets his decisions if he isn't affected by aftereffects from his actions? There is a difference between a murderer who kills a Person who never someone cared about, and a murderer who kills a Person who is/was important for someone else. Imagine if he killed Shikamaru, no one would forgive him for that. But Dady-Kishimoto made sure that he doesn't kill one of the good-guys. a whole new level of Plotarmor. 

Sasuke changes his mindset and goals as much as a woman who changes her panties in a week. 
1. He wants to kill Itachi and rebuild his clan
2. Then he neglects his goal rebuilding his clan by almost killing some Konoha-Ninjas. The consequences would be that he wouldn't be allowed to rebuild his clan for his action, and would have to do that in a own hide-out, hidden from all Villages.
3. Then he wants to kill Danzo
4. Then he wants to kill everyone in Konoha, and destroy the Village
5. Then he wants to be the next Hokage of Konoha
6. Then he wants to kill Naruto and the Kage to create his own kind of peace, by being the main-villain for every country in order to let them ally all together.

How can someone trust this Guy ? How can someone not be afraid that he will change his mind 'again' ? Why does the end settles everything up ? He admitted defeat to Naruto, so he is immune now to change his mindset again ? Is that quality Writing for you ? Where the Writer basically just says "Well, he got the mindset of Naruto now and forever, just trust this guy" I'm sorry. He used the whole War-Arc just as a steppingstone to reach his own goal, and the next moment later his mindset is now settled up forever as being a good guy ?

The Character/Plotwise perspective:

Sasukes death would not only benefits him, however also benefits the story. 

Sasuke is a Character who breaks bad in the Story. He killed many People, He killed a Kage, He attacked a Kage, He helped a Terror-Organisation etc... Just because he seeked for Revenge at the beginning of the Story towards his killed Clan. Every decision he made changed the Plot, and developed him Characterwise (despite his mindest got changed waaaay to much). The death of Sasuke would highlight his development and his decision he made in the past, becauce his death would drive the audience to look/think back to brainstorm his Storyline. (What went wrong? What if he came back to Konoha after killing Itachi? What if he didn't attack Killer-Bee ? etc.) to also provide a message for the next generation or other Shinobis to why 'Revenge' or 'Hate' isn't the path you should choose as a Ninja. It would be a lesson to everyone to prevent going such a bad path which Sasuke went. And how can u highlight a bad-path? exactly, with a 'DEATH' at the end.

Is someone now caring for those questions or lessons? No, because he lives. The audience is now more or less patiently waiting to how badass he develops further, and how strong he will be as an experienced adult. What a great Intention from the Writers, thats truly quality writing here.

Sasukes death would have developed Naruto 'sooo' much. Imagine Narutos first and only kill ended the Uchiha-Clan, because Sasuke didn't let him a other choice. Live, or be killed. Kill, or die. Save the World, or let Sasuke rule the Worl with a dystopie. Naruto would made up for the wasted Time he did chasing Sasuke, and neglecting his duties to become a worthy Hokage by killing him. Because he would realize at the end that the World needs him more than as to he needs Sasuke. Because thats what a Hokage is meant to be, making decision 'for' the people you swear to protect, and not to make decision you want for yourself. No matter what promises you made, the people you swear to protect as a Hokage comes first. It would be his biggest lessons to develop as a great Hokage, and it would be such a meaningful and memorable moment which also provides a breathtaking scenario and atmosphere for the audience. 

Damn, writing this just makes my hate towards the Canon-version even bigger. 

I don't want to point out that Sasuke was already at his peak/end characterwise. There was only one goal left for him, rebuilding his own clan, but honsetly.. does he deserves that ? No.
Putting him in Jail or something doesn't provide anything either at the end of this stage, so killing him would make so much more sense.

 

Her argumentation

It's notable that Sasuke offers to die at his point. Naruto though, doesn't want him to, and says no. Instead, Sasuke does his redemption through life, rather than giving up his life. This is the brighter outcome. Sasuke dying would work too, but it would make the next moments darker and bittersweet. Which is better -is- in the eye of the beholder. You argue it is better if he died, but based on Naruto's goal and the tone of 700, what happened fits well into that mold

 

"but based on Nartuos goal and the tone of 700, what happened fits well into that mold" Thats what i mean, most of her argumentations lack conviction and strength since she doesn't support them with real argumenations. Its more ore less just a quote of "well, what Naruto wants is always the best for the story" Can we maybe all admit that the story is more than just the 'Protagonist' ? and that a good Story is not only based around the Protagonist wheter or not he acheivesall of his goals, or just some of them ?

Her Quote

There's no set up of trust. Notably, Naruto and Kakashi pushed hard for Sasuke to be allowed to go free. So I'm not sure where Sasuke is automatically trusted comes from. 

 

If they wouldn't trust him they wouldn't set him free... Whats the point of her ? You put a murderer in jail because u are convinced that he is not to be trusted anymore in the society to provide a safety place for the others, so he has to be punished by the criminal law. That didn't happen to Sasuke, because Naruto and Kakashi were convinced that he is to be trusted after the war-arc.. which doesn't make sense since i made good argumentations above to why Sasuek shouldn't be trusted. Kishimoto just settled his good-guy-mindset for Naruto and the audience by providing him some sense in his mind with lackluster characterdevelopment..
Kishimoto: "Sasuke is now a good guy, just believe it..because im the writer so i make sure he doesn't breaks bad his mindset again.. despite he did it like 7 times spontaneous and arbitrarily in the story"

------------------------------------------------------

Her Quote

So ultimately, no, death does -not- make a story better

 

Her Quote she made befor the last Quote

So yes, your point of Jirayai is accurate

 

My Quote about Jiraiya

[Example 1: Pain killed Jiraiya. It was a memorable Arc because of the death of Jiraiya, and it improved Pain characterwise to be a worthy and serious Antagonist. It also improved the build up towards the Naruto-vs.-Pain fight at the end.] Thats the main reason to why so many People remembers the Pain-Arc as one of the best Arc, if not the best Arc.

 

1. My argumentation was that Jiraiyas death improved the Pain-Arc Storywise
2. She agrees on my Argumentation
3. Later she writes "So ultimately, no, death does -not- make a story better"
4. ????

She condradicts herself, because she 'needs' to debate against me no matter what. No Argumentation, but tries her best to debate against my argumentations. Thats her main goal in this thread anyways.

She doesn't care about Naruto or 'good' Writing, she just wants to debate against others.. maybe because of passing her boring time.

Sometimes she even skip some part of my Argumentations i made to make clear why a alternative writing would be a way better one, i guess because she can't debate to them

"So yes, in my mind, Kishimoto is about as skilled as J.K. Rowling" - Analyzer, the peak of her nonsense

Edited by Riverkid, 01 August 2017 - 04:30 PM.

[sushi.]

Since Analyzer already said she shipped NS, I have to say I wonder why she doesn't ship NH. If I can see the positives in a ship, I will at least ship it moderately.

 

[HalfDemonInuyasha]

 

*sigh* The only canon Manga character that legitly nusted a planet in DBZ was Buu. Vegeta could not bust a planet and neither could Goku. Frieza only busted a planet by destroying the core. That's Manga canon facts.

 

Super Saiyan God Goku almost kitten his pants when he was about to face Beerus's planet busting attack. Vegeta died by one. Superman ate one.

 

The shockwaves created by Goku and Beerus was later said to be a fluke, and even when the earth was at the center of it, earth took no damage. Since then, those shockwaves never happened again.

 

They have done nothing to suggest that they could even destroy a Solar System, let alone a galaxy and a universe. Superman withstood  50 Supernovas combined. 50 exploding suns to the face while weakened by red sunlight energy. Goku's durability or power output doesn't come close to that.

 

Superman would rip him in half, and PIS off, no need to weaken Superman for the sake of the story. He is limitless. After being in the sun for 10 years, he became stronger to the point where Kryptonite didn't even affect him anymore.  He doesn't have to be Superman-Prime 1 Million for that. I don't even know how he came in this conversation.

 

Regular Superman sologodstomps the DBZverse. Let alone the other versions of Superman.

Not to mention the various, sometimes ridiculous, feats Superman has had in older comics, like sneezing away an entire (lifeless) solar system. Or in Superman vs. The Elite, you had him hit with what was described as 1000 supernovas going off in his face.

Goku is very powerful, yes, but Superman is just...yeah.
 

 

Speaking of Ten Ten, I'm so pissed that she never got to use the supposedly heavenly tools during the War Arc that were dropped right in front of her.  I still can't decide if Kishimoto actually forgot those existed after the chapter they were abruptly introduced in or if he was deliberately trolling us by making us think that Ten Ten was finally going to do something cool, only to deny us.

 

Either way,  just another character who never even began to explore her potential. 

The only one she ever uses is the fan, but she tires herself after just one swing and is warned not to use it too much due to the huge amounts of chakra required to use it.

[sushi.]

 

Because I don't find it enticing. It's a rather normal couple to me. Their journey is well executed, even interesting, but their culmination is ordinary. I don't ship it for that reason. Respect to those who do though, it does have positives. 

 

NS on the other hand may lack a complete journey, but I love the idea of what they are in fanon. 

Eitherway I think you might have unlimited chakra battling all these users without falling

[Riverkid]

I made the Post for someone else, not to debate with you.. despite i saw your reply coming, trying to defend yourself. Perhaps because i hit the nail with my Post :--)

Your argumentations are the same, as always.

"Without Sasuke, there would be no Happy End..  But daddy Kishimoto wants a happy end.. so its the best ending"

A good story is a good Story. Gving the Protagonist all the power, and let him achieve everything he wants doesnt automatically make the story a good one.. lol.

Btw... there is a difference if you let Jiraiya never be found. Naruto wouldn't had the drive to stop/kill Pain, and would instead maybe go on a adventure looking for Jiraiya... just explains that you don't even know what u write for yourself.

I will stop here debating with you, its a waste of time (already said that). i prefer debating about Naruto instead with someone who just wants to debate against me.
 

 

[Riverkid]

 

But I am debating about Naruto. I think you're taking this too personally, or with too much emotion, if you believe I am debating against you just to debate against you. 

 

A happy end is perfectly doable with Sasuke, as it is with. You charged Sasuke with all these murders he...actually didn't do? Let's agree the guy did mistakes, was a bad person, but the Sasuke that leaves at 699 is a different person. He did time, that which is unstated (Giving a weight of time may have helped or hurt it more). 

 

I never said giving the Protagonist to achieve everything he wanted was how to make a good end. I did say though, that Naruto is well...about Naruto? 

 

On your last part, you tap into why Jirayai going missing probably doesn't work as well as Jirayai dying or being eternally handicapped. My point is there isn't one way to do things, and with proper motivated illustration and execution, you have multiple ideas to work with which you don't even have to kill characters off. 

Have a nice day too :-)

[FutureHalfofFamer]

 

Because I don't find it enticing. It's a rather normal couple to me. Their journey is well executed, even interesting, but their culmination is ordinary. I don't ship it for that reason. Respect to those who do though, it does have positives. 

 

NS on the other hand may lack a complete journey, but I love the idea of what they are in fanon. 

 

didn't I tell you the next time I came on this thread, you had better be gone?

[Khaleesi]

@Riverkid
You tried to do the same as me. Haha. The principal thing to point out there is that there is not understandment of the difference between intention and product :/

[Yyubie]

@Riverkid

When you debate with pro ending fans , at the end of the day the feeling you got is : "What the F am i doing?" , because you realize you just wasting time.

[Khaleesi]

[sushi.]

 
didn't I tell you the next time I came on this thread, you had better be gone?

That won't work and mods have warned us against threats.

Maybe they'll grow tired if we stop debating NS for awhile.

What's your favorite tea? I like black. No milk.

[Khaleesi]

There is no understandment of the difference between intention and product. (:

[T XD]

 

I'm assuming this means you understand now. 

Out of curiosity, how did you assume an emoticon laughing at your post to mean that this person now understands ?

[Khaleesi]

That won't work and mods have warned us against threats.
Maybe they'll grow tired if we stop debating NS for awhile.
What's your favorite tea? I like black. No milk.

Yeah, dude, for much you don't like them, no one should be treated like that! Unless they attack you too, you shouldn't be rude to them.

[Khaleesi]

Out of curiosity, how did you assume an emoticon laughing at your post to mean that this person now understands ?

She thinks there is a reason beyond not answering to her argument. Or thats what I think.

[Yyubie]

This is one of the best quote from Mafia 2 games : "Only idiot do drugs , Deadbeat and Losers if they want to kill themselves so badly i gladly help them out"

 

"Only sick people (SS fans) and delusional people (NH fans) like the ending, if they want to stay in dreamland then let them be"

[T XD]

She thinks there is a reason beyond not answering to her argument. Or thats what I think.

The threads are so lively since last month. There's a positive.

[sushi.]

The threads are so lively since last month. There's a positive.

I know!! XDXD not so nice seeing people upset but the drama is quite fun

Although I admit I've had enough of it, but well what can you do

Edited by sushi., 01 August 2017 - 07:04 PM.