54213 replies to this topic

[ThroughWithLove]

 

But that doesn't work, because:

 

The story says there is a cow at the end

We see a build up going towards a cow.

You see a cat at the end.

The story shows the cow.

You say that the story was written wrong.

 

Do you see that the later is more of a conspiracy theory confirmation bias than mine?

 

Even if I -have- confirmation bias, which I don't, the manga at least supports it, but cannot, and will never support a conspiracy theory that is often suggested, by a pattern of the two groups I see (Those who "hate" the manga to a weight, and those who were deeply involved in pairings.). 

 

Think of it this way:

 

 

-A local shaman does the rain dance on Tuesday in an effort to make it rain on Wednesday.

-A crowd of skeptics surround the shaman and ridicule him for thinking he can make it rain just by dancing.

-The shaman is convinced in his beliefs and mocks the skeptics for their skepticism.

-Come Wednesday, it actually rains.

-Therefore, the skeptics were wrong to question the shaman's ability to make it rain?

-Therefore, the shaman did in fact make it rain?

-Therefore, the skeptics owe the shaman an apology?

 

 

That's your reasoning in a nutshell. 

 

And I can't imagine how one could claim that something as mundane as "the author changed his mind about X" is a conspiracy theory.

 

 

You've stated an utter dislike for much of the end of the Manga and have shown you were only in it for the pairings, which sort of puts you with this trend.

 

So yes, even if your statement applied, it does nothing to weaken the quote, because a cow argument naturally holds more strength than a cat one.

 

 

 

Poisoning the well fallacy.

Edited by ThroughWithLove, 31 July 2017 - 02:51 PM.

[ThroughWithLove]

 

Thoughts:

 

How was Naruto learning that not everyone could be saved is awful?

 

Because it felt like that scene served no other purpose than to give Naruto and Hinata a moment together (which the author has confirmed). Neji's death has almost no impact on the story and that entire part of the war arc could literally be omitted out of the manga without effecting the narrative structure. That's why I think it's awful.

 

 

Also why would Sasuke die in this supposed re-write? It works better here than at the end since Naruto isn't about saving him, mind. It's fine if he dies, but this is definitely a more grittier take. Just noting the tonal shift. Don't have any other thoughts, other than this would make a great fanfic to see how it played out. 

 

Sasuke's death here would accomplish exactly what Khaleesi says it does:

 

>This would made Team 7 very sad, but even if Naruto and Sakura desired to save him, that is not always reality, see Darth Vader. For me, he should have died as a villian. And Naruto should have learn he can't save everyone and how selfish and obssesive of him was to pursue him and justify Sasuke's actions. Naruto doesn't really understands Sasuke, so I deeply understand why Sasuke gets annoyed at Naruto's, Sakura's and Kakashi's presence always on his tail.

 

As I've noted many many times on this forum, Naruto's obsession with Sasuke detracted from the character. Sasuke's death could be used to make him learn the error of his ways, mature and finally come to understand what it really means to be Hokage (which, instead of bonds, is what the entirety of Part 2 should have been about).

 

I recognize the problem of the tonal shift which is why I'm recommending that this basically replace the Pain arc (which was a large tonal shift prior to the BS deus ex machina ending) so that we can see Naruto learn from this and return to a happier (albeit more mature) note.

Edited by ThroughWithLove, 31 July 2017 - 03:03 PM.

[Shashank95]

 

Please Read Chapter 490, you will find the scan a few pages before the end. The translation should be similar enough in whatever medium you retrieve it from, a line about Naruto stating that when he saw Hinata hurt by Pain his heart automatically connected to the ninetails. 

 

The last line is just rude.

 

 

Just ask? I'm happy to say, and have in my first posts. I just provided a post above that has Naruto not stating any of the other facts for Pein's fight, -except- Hinata, which had his heart automatically go straight to Kurama, no thought. Just pure giving into when he felt the Worst Feelings ever. And hey, this is backed up by the Manga itself. 

 

Anyway, no it's not just NS fans, though the loudest and most hateful group come from some shippers whose ships didn't become canon or those who just hated the manga in general. There are definitely NS fans who liked The Last and the ending. Certainly, I don't chalk up those who like the ending to be of specifically a group with a wave of my hand, though the pattern is noticeable. 

 

Your last paragraph is odd, because I was not reminiscing about NS, or talking about my favorite moments with them. Anyway, my first paragraph does just as you asked, properly fact backed even with a chapter reference. Hey, that proves your argument wrong here, right, objectively, that I do not use a source? 

 

 

Naruto swears up and down though that he will bring Sasuke alive or die with him. This is the final arc. The Hero wins here. So it doesn't make 100% more sense to die? It's completely a taste execution. Do you want a brighter, happy ending, settling things nicely? Do you want to bring a bit of dark realization not everyone can be saved? There is absolutely not one way to do things, nor one way that is better. This is all eye of the beholder, and that is why your second line does not understand that being a writer is a creative artist. 

So you basically ignore the pages up to the point where he mentions Hinata when formulating your opinion? It's just as the blackshirtguy told you. The reason why Naruto gave into the Kyubi was that a culmination of his ineffectiveness at protecting his friends, Hinata getting hurt was the last straw that broke the camels back. I'll post them below.



 

 

Even here he puts Sakura before Hinata.
 

It's laid out just as Blackshirtguy had mentioned. He was pissed at Gaara for hurting Sakura, so he used Kurama's chakra. He was pissed at being weak enough to cost Sasuke his life in his fight against Haku, so he used Kurama's chakra, he was pissed that Orochi taunted him and he couldn't get Sasuke back, so he gave into Kurama and hurt Sakura which was when that he decided to not give in. But his master's death, the village's destruction and finally Hinata getting manhandled was all too much for him. 

[sushi.]

idk at what point you guys are in the debate right now, but I've been thinking something about red herrings.

 

If NS is a red herring it works in our favour. Because 1. we were analyzing the manga right, not NH fans. 2. NH may have been 'planned' but plans matters not until they are carried out. So if NH was ~planned~ in ch1 it means nothing when it only happened on a whim in the very end. If Kishi says NS was a red herring, then you can't say you saw NH from afar.

 

There's more. A red herring is a short distraction. No red herring lasts for over 600 chapters LOL. This 'red herring' got its own events in Japan and big support from the main character's VA. And, Naruto is also not a romance manga, thus there'd be no need to mislead subplot that is always consistent and simple in the genre. Anyone who isn't a damn vegetable would see the lies here.

Edited by sushi., 31 July 2017 - 03:15 PM.

[ThroughWithLove]

 

Here's the failure of this:

 

Your example is more of the remark of let me say something, and it happens, guess.

My example is a remark, I am saying something, the -writer- is showing this is graudally going to happen, then it happens.

 

You've said that and have yet to convince a single person here that the writer was gradually showing that NH was going to happen (which I'm not going to get back into since we've discussed it to death). Instead, you've been shown by multiple people how easy it would be to remove Hinata from this manga without harming the structural integrity of the story. Something you've even agreed can be done only to dispute the subjective tonal impact the story would still have. What's worse is that you have the author claiming he deliberately tried to make readers think NS is going to happen with what he calls "red herrings" (an argument nobody ever made until after Kishi's interviews). So no, you're perfectly welcome to praise and adore NH to your hearts content, but this "maybe you misread the manga" position just isn't going to convince anyone here. Perhaps if you went about it from a "maybe you were deceived/mislead" angle, you might have a little more success in . . . well whatever it is you're doing here.

 

 

Notably, the poisoning of the well fallacy more applies to yourself.

 

Let's illustrate this using NaruHina now:

 

Kishimoto introduces NH at the onset. WE go through the Chuunin Exams. Observer says this pairing will be canon. Skeptic says no. We get the Confession. Skeptic says nothing to worry about, look at these other things. Observer says this is important. 

 

We get 615, Skeptic gets very doubtful and starts calling things dumb. (This is what happened here, by the way). Firm optimists try to put up encouragement. Observers are more firm. Kishimoto throws out a couple of Red Herrings from here, notably comparing Sakura to Kushina. Skeptic feels better.

 

The ending shows 700. Kishimoto says this was the plan all along. Observer notes they saw this. Skeptic calls everything dumb and poor writing and that it was never there. Observer shows their work that it was their all along, BEFORE it even was confirmed. Skeptic says its dumb. 

 

I colored my comparison with some counterpoints, Red Herrings, and specific details, but it's the same Author/Observer/Skeptic dance, as Shaman/Observer/Skeptic, using some foundation. Now, do you understand? 

 

No, in terms of what has actually been said in our conversation here, you are poisoning the well by making the argument that because I've "stated an utter dislike for much of the end of the Manga and have shown [I was] only in it for the pairings", your "cow argument naturally holds more strength than a cat one." What I think and believe has no bearing on the weight of your arguments. Discrediting the opposition in no way demonstrates that I or anyone else simply misread the manga. In other words, poisoning the well.

 

And yes, I've certainly called this manga dumb (and a great deal of other things), but none of that constitutes poisoning the well on the account of the fact that this manga being dumb was my conclusion, not the premise for an argument independent of the constant stupidity between chapters 450 and 700. Hope that helps! 

[ThroughWithLove]

 

Neji's death is more then that, and while it does offer up an NH moment, as the Author states, it is not the sole reason. There weren't any young generations deaths in the manga at this point. They were enemies, or the Elderly. Neji's death sort of plays up the reality of war, gets Naruto to sink down. It's not as glossed over as you say it is. Granted, subjective story weights, as I said before. Really, what works is if the character is one you care about or not. If you don't at all, then sure, you'lre on the not impacted list. But a lot did, and 614 was a definite fandom shock chapter. 

 

I've heard it before and I don't really buy it. Problem is that I can still take that chapter (or is it two chapters? I've lost count) out of the manga without there being any problems on the narrative whatsoever. Really, a few clever edits to transition the adjoining chapters together would be all that was required. Read the arc in its entirety if you don't believe me. The "reality of war" is not a thing, according to Mr. "the guy who murdered my parents and a bajillion other people" is the coolest guy ever! 

 

 

Reality of war my @ss!    

 

 

 

though it's notable that the Kage Summit Arc and later chapters shows that Naruto's understanding of Sasuke grows, to the point he does, though Sasuke does not understand Naruto. You do point out though something I agree that the entire Team 7 execution wasn't done very well, with any of them. Notable that Sakura's and Sasuke's creations are an editor's suggestion, with time constraints, that shaky execution was likely born form that sort of time pressure.

 

Sasuke and Sakura's creations were an editor's suggestion, but the author is the one who chose to make the entirety of part 2 revolve around Sasuke. A big mistake if you ask me. As was that "brothers" stuff he pulled out of thin air during the first VoTe fight.  The author intended for it to be special, but inadvertently ended up making Naruto a source of ridicule and yaoi fanfiction. The worst was when he actually Naruto commenting on having no problem with dying with the dude. Like seriously, what the hell? 

Edited by ThroughWithLove, 31 July 2017 - 03:46 PM.

[sushi.]

I dont mean to be rude @Analyser but I'm not interested debating with you

[HalfDemonInuyasha]

Trying to say the "War" Arc in Naruto "plays up the reality of war" is an insult to every veteran in the world, both living and dead, who has fought in an actual war. Try talking to such veterans and then think back to the "War" Arc in Naruto. You'll find that the "War" Arc in Naruto is nowhere near a fraction of what is described by those veterans and how it had changed things, both personally and in general.

 

 

This is a good post and you've made a lot of good points, but I'd have to disagree with this part. Sasuke should have gotten his comeuppance and Naruto should've learned what being hokage was about (i.e. not this "if I can't even save a friend, I can't be hokage" BS) , but unless Sasuke's death is of his own volition (realizing the error of his ways in the end and sacrificing himself to save Naruto---perhaps even with a good throwback to Zabuza arc when he jumped in the way to save Naruto from Haku), I'm just not sure it fits thematically to up and kill him off. I just can't see that kid who went out of his way to make a promise of lifetime promise to bring Sasuke back turning around and offing the dude without a boatload of character development to justify it.

As I mentioned numerous times, I don't believe Sasuke should have died either, but rather permanently blinded and/or crippled, reduced to a civilian or lower.

[BlackShirtGuy]

 

Mis-read is a valid argument however, specifically because a large group was correct in their prediction, and you, and others were not. So it is not poisoning the well here. 

 

I also didn't say anything about easily removing Hinata? You'd have to do significant re-writes, which would change the story. The main story of Naruto is about acknowledgement, and Hinata is one of the big acknowledgers? So not sure where you got this detail from. As for your suggested word choice, it's a diction phrase. Maybe you misread is notably a weaker stance than you misread. If you're making an argument, you don't use maybe. When I use maybe, it's because I wish to come off gentler than I would otherwise. 

 

Oh jeez, please can you stop using the mis-read argument? It's really insulting, first how do you do for "mis-reading" something? Are you saying that because people put more weight to the more numerous interactions of the main character and his partner who he had a crush on than his interactions with a SIDE character that he only interacted, what 5 times, we MISREAD the manga??? Sorry, but no that's not how it works that just showcases Kishimoto's bad writing and last minute decision, hey @Analyzer if the Pein moment for Hinata was so important to NH, Why is SAKURA who hugs him after the fight and not his "true love"??? I would really like to hear your explanation on that, futhermore, as @Shashank95 said you ignored most of my comment, completely, I said numerous fans boycotted everything after the ending and your response was the same exact thing, angy fans who didn't get his/her ship canon, do you ever stop and think, well maybe people didn't like it because we didn't see Naruto's Hokage Ceremony (Wich was later turned into a stupid punchline which is BLATANTLY INSULTING for longtime manga readers but I disgress), maybe fans were mad we didn't get any resolution to Team 7,  the whole plot of part 2 was get Sasuke back so team 7 can be together again, well newsflash man, team 7 is now more dispersed than ever, Kakashi retired, Naruto and Sakura are strangers to each other and Sasuke isn't never at the village, so a whole plot point of part 2 with no resolution, great.
People have said it before but I'm pretty sure the only reason you defend theese things is because you are a NH, SS fan more than an NS fan or at the very least, you are more a fan of the canon than everything else , or maybe you are so much of a fanatic that if something is canon you will always go back and find excuses on how to justify it even when you KNOW it was a total wreck from a writing standpoint.

Edited by BlackShirtGuy, 31 July 2017 - 04:22 PM.

[Shashank95]

 

Oh jeez, please can you stop using the mis-read argument? It's really insulting, first how do you do for "mis-reading" something? Are you saying that because people put more weight to the more numerous interactions of the main character and his partner who he had a crush on than his interactions with a SIDE character that he only interacted, what 5 times, we MISREAD the manga??? Sorry, but no that's not how it works that just showcases Kishimoto's bad writing and last minute decision, hey @Analyzer if the Pein moment for Hinata was so important to NH, Why is SAKURA who hugs him after the fight and not his "true love"??? I would really like to hear your explanation on that, futhermore, as @Shashank95 said you ignored most of my comment, completely, I said numerous fans boycotted everything after the ending and your response was the same exact thing, angy fans who didn't get his/her ship canon, do you ever stop and think, well maybe people didn't like it because we didn't see Naruto's Hokage Ceremony (Wich was later turned into a stupid punchline which is BLATANTLY INSULTING for longtime manga readers but I disgress), maybe fans were mad we didn't get any resolution to Team 7,  the whole plot of part 2 was get Sasuke back so team 7 can be together again, well newsflash man, team 7 is now more dispersed than ever, Kakashi retired, Naruto and Sakura are strangers to each other and Sasuke isn't never at the village, so a whole plot point of part 2 with no resolution, great.
People have said it before but I'm pretty sure the only reason you defend theese things is because you are a NH, SS fan more than an NS fan or at the very least, you are more a fan of the canon than everything else , or maybe you are so much of a fanatic that if something is canon you will always go back and find excuses on how to justify it even when you KNOW it was a total wreck from a writing standpoint.

I think it's best we ignore this person. But hard to do so when she refuses to let go of her stubbornness and keeps butting into every conversation throwing around her "You are wrong" "Yours is just an opinion, mine is fact" "You misread the manga" comments left and right.

[Riverkid]

 

Naruto swears up and down though that he will bring Sasuke alive or die with him. This is the final arc. The Hero wins here. So it doesn't make 100% more sense to die? It's completely a taste execution. Do you want a brighter, happy ending, settling things nicely? Do you want to bring a bit of dark realization not everyone can be saved? There is absolutely not one way to do things, nor one way that is better. This is all eye of the beholder, and that is why your second line does not understand that being a writer is a creative artist. 

Can you maybe stop bringing up the same argumention again and again and again ? "This is all eye of the beholder, and that is why your second line does not understand that being a writer is a creative artist". After the 3rd time it sounds more like you lack real argumentations to support your Standpoint, and that you are forced to go back to the usual phrase "This is all eye of the beholder" because you clearly don't know how to support your standpoint otherwise. I'm sorry, but thats like saying "Well, but thats my Opinion" without bringing any good argumentions to why your Opinion is a good one, or atleast comprehensively. Do you also consider some thrown color on a dirty wall as 'good' Art because... well... according to you everything is 'good', it just depends on the 'eye of the beholder'. Can u explain me then why some Art reach more creditably and scope ? Well, i think your usual line doesn't provide an answer to that Question, and i don't expect an answer from you.

But i got your Back! I will explain it to you... some of them are even Textbook-knowledge, because it seems you skipped many of them. 

The death of a Character isn't just a plain thing to do which decide to whether the Story is going 'brighter' or 'darker'. I'll never understand why most People think that a Story is automatically 'dark' just because Characters die there. I mean, a 12-year old kid would maybe say that. However i believe you are older than 12.. are you ? 

There are many reasons to why someone should let a Character die in his own Story, or to let them fade away. No! not because they want to make a 'dark'-Story, so do me a favour and never bring that argumention again.

The most used reason to why someone should let a Character die is when the Writer doesn't need the Character anymore, because he clearly doesn't want to utilize the Character further in his Story. The benefit from that is you can open up a new chapter or use the open room to introduce new Characters to fill the gap. [Example 1: Zabuza died at the end of the Arc, and opened the gap for the introduction of Orchimaru in the next Arc]. [Example 2: Madara died during the War-Arc in order to let Kaguya fill the gap of being the end-Boss]

The 2nd most used reason to why someone should let a Character die is when the Writer wants to highlight a tragic moment during the Story, or to highlight an Antogonist more. The benefit from that is you can build up the tension towards the antagonist or provide a memorable impression on the died character. [Example 1: Pain killed Jiraiya. It was a memorable Arc because of the death of Jiraiya, and it improved Pain characterwise to be a worthy and serious Antagonist. It also improved the build up towards the Naruto-vs.-Pain fight at the end.] Thats the main reason to why so many People remembers the Pain-Arc as one of the best Arc, if not the best Arc.

The 3rd most used reason to why someone should let a Character die is when the Writer wants to develop another Character into a specific direction. The aren't really benefits since this step is needed if you want a Character with 'revenge-type' ambitions, however it is a simple way to develop a Character without using complex development-mechanics. [Example 1: Rins death. Rin as a Character was only used to develop Tobi into one of the main Antagonists]. [Example 2: Death of sasukes parents. They were also just used to develop Sasuke into the edgy-type, loner, revenge-dude we all know.]

Of course there are many other reasons to why the death of a Character can provide benefits for the Story, or supports the overall atmosphere by building up Tension, providing complex development and creating space for unused Characterpotential. And no, not everything is just Dark'or'Bright based on deaths. 

'Game of Thrones' isn't a dark Story just because many Characters die there, it is dark because it takes place in the medieval time. If you want a authentic medieval-world then it has to be dark, or do i even need to explain you why the medieval-age was a dark-themed age ?

Even Naruto was introcuded as a dark-themed World. Where you need to be a excellent Ninja to survive, where you sometimes need to make sacrifises to protect the ones you love. The parents of Naruto and Sasuke were killed, Kakashi has a cold personality because of his childhood, the way how Orochimaru was introduced with all the Stories about the wars and clan-fights etc. 


But i write too much again, lets head to 'Sasuke'. 

1. Naruto can swear as much as he wants, why does that settles the outcome for you? He even said that none of his friends will die, and guess what happened? Neji died. surprise.

2. The Hero wins/Happy End. Why does the Happy-End requires Sasuke to live? just solely because of the promise Naruto made? If Sasuke chooses by himself that he wants to be the last Antagonist against the Protagonist, why wouldn't that be a Happy-Ending when the Protagonist kills the Antagonist? Because at this Point Sasuke was clearly settled in his Role, and there shouldn't be a way for Naruto to get around the fight (where he should haved killed him). But i will discuss that for you. 

The Logical/Psychological Persepective:

Sasuke never had to deal with the Aftermath of his actions. No one cared when he killed Orochimaru. No one cared when he killed Itachi. No one cared when he killed Danzo. All his attempts to kill Konoha-Ninjas or Ninjas from allied-Nations (Naruto, Sakura, Kakashi, Sai, Yamato, Killer-Bee, Raikage etc.) weren't successfull. Its like Kishimoto made sure that Sasuke only success in killing the 'bad-guys', but gives Plotarmor to everyone as soon he fights someone from Konoha (except Danzo).

How does a Person regrets his decisions if he isn't affected by aftereffects from his actions? There is a difference between a murderer who kills a Person who never someone cared about, and a murderer who kills a Person who is/was important for someone else. Imagine if he killed Shikamaru, no one would forgive him for that. But Dady-Kishimoto made sure that he doesn't kill one of the good-guys. a whole new level of Plotarmor. 

Sasuke changes his mindset and goals as much as a woman who changes her panties in a week. 
1. He wants to kill Itachi and rebuild his clan
2. Then he neglects his goal rebuilding his clan by almost killing some Konoha-Ninjas. The consequences would be that he wouldn't be allowed to rebuild his clan for his action, and would have to do that in a own hide-out, hidden from all Villages.
3. Then he wants to kill Danzo
4. Then he wants to kill everyone in Konoha, and destroy the Village
5. Then he wants to be the next Hokage of Konoha
6. Then he wants to kill Naruto and the Kage to create his own kind of peace, by being the main-villain for every country in order to let them ally all together.

How can someone trust this Guy ? How can someone not be afraid that he will change his mind 'again' ? Why does the end settles everything up ? He admitted defeat to Naruto, so he is immune now to change his mindset again ? Is that quality Writing for you ? Where the Writer basically just says "Well, he got the mindset of Naruto now and forever, just trust this guy" I'm sorry. He used the whole War-Arc just as a steppingstone to reach his own goal, and the next moment later his mindset is now settled up forever as being a good guy ?

The Character/Plotwise perspective:

Sasukes death would not only benefits him, however also benefits the story. 

Sasuke is a Character who breaks bad in the Story. He killed many People, He killed a Kage, He attacked a Kage, He helped a Terror-Organisation etc... Just because he seeked for Revenge at the beginning of the Story towards his killed Clan. Every decision he made changed the Plot, and developed him Characterwise (despite his mindest got changed waaaay to much). The death of Sasuke would highlight his development and his decision he made in the past, becauce his death would drive the audience to look/think back to brainstorm his Storyline. (What went wrong? What if he came back to Konoha after killing Itachi? What if he didn't attack Killer-Bee ? etc.) to also provide a message for the next generation or other Shinobis to why 'Revenge' or 'Hate' isn't the path you should choose as a Ninja. It would be a lesson to everyone to prevent going such a bad path which Sasuke went. And how can u highlight a bad-path? exactly, with a 'DEATH' at the end.

Is someone now caring for those questions or lessons? No, because he lives. The audience is now more or less patiently waiting to how badass he develops further, and how strong he will be as an experienced adult. What a great Intention from the Writers, thats truly quality writing here.

Sasukes death would have developed Naruto 'sooo' much. Imagine Narutos first and only kill ended the Uchiha-Clan, because Sasuke didn't let him a other choice. Live, or be killed. Kill, or die. Save the World, or let Sasuke rule the Worl with a dystopie. Naruto would made up for the wasted Time he did chasing Sasuke, and neglecting his duties to become a worthy Hokage by killing him. Because he would realize at the end that the World needs him more than as to he needs Sasuke. Because thats what a Hokage is meant to be, making decision 'for' the people you swear to protect, and not to make decision you want for yourself. No matter what promises you made, the people you swear to protect as a Hokage comes first. It would be his biggest lessons to develop as a great Hokage, and it would be such a meaningful and memorable moment which also provides a breathtaking scenario and atmosphere for the audience. 

Damn, writing this just makes my hate towards the Canon-version even bigger. 

I don't want to point out that Sasuke was already at his peak/end characterwise. There was only one goal left for him, rebuilding his own clan, but honsetly.. does he deserves that ? No.
Putting him in Jail or something doesn't provide anything either at the end of this stage, so killing him would make so much more sense.

The Naruto-Boat was already on the bottem of the Sea before the Naru-vs-Sasu Battle, like the good old Titanic. But Kishimoto still needed to let the Boat explode completly underwater by writing that Ending.

You call 'that' good Art? Then its a damn shame you consider yourself as a writer. The Art of Writing lies in the usage of the complexity elements, to create a beautiful written story with the right use of each important component. Do u think J.K.Rowling books are bestseller solely because she choosed a attractive Fanatsyworld for the audience? Do u think G.R.R.Martin books are bestseller solely because of his complex World buildup ? No, bcause they know how to 'Write' a good damn Story.

Yes, the 'KNOW' how to write.. not just throw some colors at a wall and call that Art because a Person like u says its good because of "This is all eye of the beholder" bullsh*t. Thats the intention of the Writer Bullsh*t.

-------------

Conclusion.

Sasuke only survived because Kishimoto or the ohter people in charge still had plans with him with further content. More movies, Boruto etc. to keep the Naruto-Audience somehow alive, and Sasuke brings a good amount of Fanbse along. Thats not even a 'claim', its just putting 1+1 together. 

Truly 'ART'-Worthy neglecting a good ending just so we can make more money out of the fanbase with further content.

 

Edited by Riverkid, 31 July 2017 - 05:00 PM.

[ThroughWithLove]

 

Not so easy, actually. Take out those chapters, and you're left with the below question:

 

Now how does Naruto get to this point? 

 

Actually, I just went back and checked. It'd be laughable easy.

 

Make this scene in chapter 613 the end of chapter 613.

 

 

Then make this scene from chapter 616 the beginning of the new chapter 614

 

Then make this scene from chapter 616 the second page of the new chapter 614

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Then make this scene from  chapter 614 the third page of the new chapter 614. Also  make sure to edit out the dialogue about despair at the bottom and replace it with something else (i.e. Now lets continue!)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Then make this page from chapter 616 the fourth page:

 

 

 

 

Omit any scenes in reference in Neji in chapter 616 and any dialogue in reference to Neji for the remainder of the manga. And lastly, alter the dialogue below so that Naruto instead says something to the effect of "I will never give up no matter what comes way, for that is my indo!"

 

 

 

And voila. We've retconned Neji's death and with zero legitimate plot significance being lost in the process.

 

 

 

Basically, you can't just make clever edits and get rid of this.

 

I just did.

 

 

 

 It's actually part of the Hero's journey to fall into a chasm, be it physical or metaphorical, be it despair, or grief, that makes you want to give in. Neji's death was a way of dong this. Sure, you can find another way to get Naruto there. But that wasn't the plan.

 

Naruto already faced grief and despair when he faced Dark Naruto and he faces it again when Madara rips the Kyuubi out of him.  Thus, nothing you've told us about the "hero's journey" justifies this scene being a necessity. It isn't. Neji's death is superfluous to the plot and laughably subverted throughout the war arc. 

 

 

 

On this Cool Guy Comment, well... that's personal taste? 

 

It completely undermines the "realities of war" you were trying to use as justification for killing Neji off. That's not personal taste. That's subversion. That's two different and conflicting ideas at odds with one another and the former idea being completely swept under the rug in favor of the latter.

Edited by ThroughWithLove, 31 July 2017 - 04:53 PM.

[VanitasDS76491]

That dog is pretty funny.

[BlackShirtGuy]

 

Not sure if I agree with this at all, being a child of a Veteran myself. Naruto is no Dunkirk 2017 War Film. It's audience is children, and it is mindful of that, with its brighter, lighthearted messages, and lack of grittiness. It's not uber realism, else we wouldn't be dealing with Jutsu at all. But I don't think dark and gritty is better in any shape either. 

 

It's notable that Sasuke is missing an arm, and that he refused to have it replaced. 

 

 

To your first question:

 

Yes. Also 5 times? No. 

 

To the second question:

 

 It's a friendly hug, and I don't see anything wrong with it. It wasn't the plan to make NH canon right then as is. I don't want to say complaints here are illegitimate mind for those who wanted more NH, or wanted it more clear that it wasn't NS, the frustration is understandable. But the explanation is valid and legitimate on why Naruto doesn't reciprocate here and then. 

 

The Last Naruto volume was one of the most sold. I'm failing to see how a boycott is an effective point in this. 

 

Okay, Team 7 definitely had a resolution. The Ending did tie things together. It had a problem with some wobbly executions started from earlier on, but it more or less makes sense and ties everything together. The key is that things end on different terms, on the Naruto Sasuke angle, that it is as friends, with Sasuke redeemed, and on the SS angle, a promise of a future relationship. They're not broken apart and against eachother like before. I feel like the Team 7 issue is largely misunderstood. 

 

I get that people actually wanted to see Naruto's inaugration not be a joke, the frustration is valid. The End does show Naruto as Hokage though, which makes sense, and ties things up. 

 

A reminder of the thoughts I have to NS and then each canon pairing, though I imagine this will be ignored again. Believe what you will, but below is the truth, simplified. 

 

NS: Favorite. The NS angle is so warm and nice. While it'd have been great if they were lovers, I love what I got as is.

 

SS: Ehn. I'm not a fan of angsty. Had wobbly execution writing wise, though Gaiden helped my image of them a little. 

ST: Cute, I guess? No Strong Feelings.

CK:Actually a funny pairing. It grew onto me.

SI: I actually like this one, even though their kid's hair color drives me crazy.

NH: Kind of vanilla. Predictable, I guess. Even though I was initially upset at an NS ending, I always knew an NH ending was very possible. 

You just made me sure now, I'll stop debating with you, there is absolutely no point I never expected a response like that, also the fact that you went out of your way to explain how do you feel  about every.single.pairing. just makes me believe you've never cared about any of those characters at all, it's actually kinda sad you know. OH, and also...
 

 

SS: Ehn. I'm not a fan of angsty. Had wobbly execution writing wise, though Gaiden helped my image of them a little. 

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!
I'm sorry but seriously what "helped" your image of them the fact that he hasn't been  home or contact her for like ten years, the fact that he doesn't even showed her physical affection or the fact that she's in debt and Sasuke doesn't give a single damn about it xD
GLORIOUS, thanks for making me laugh, have your opinions I will have mine, have a good day.

Edited by BlackShirtGuy, 31 July 2017 - 05:16 PM.

[Khaleesi]

It's over guys, clearly she is unable to see her own bias, so why bother?

@Analyzer 
I still don't understand what you stand for and what you expect to do here, if it bothers you that much that there are people who don't see the things like you do, why are you still arguing? You're not discussing, discussing or debating would mean that you're using facts or official data of the series to back up your unfounded claims, but no, your "facts" is just saying: "no, you guys are  wrong because you are being biased and confusing opinions with facts".
Well let me give you my two cents, First if the ending was not bad as some people think it is, why do everything that came after it suffered that much backlash? I mean everyone likes to chalk it up to ("the salty Narusaku fans") , people didn't like the ending, oh they are just salty narusakfans, people didn't like The Last oh they are just angry narusaku fans.
No, there is a reason people didn't like any of those things and It's been said before, it's because the story doesn't made any sense, how Naruto "fallls" in love with Hinata doesn't make sense either I swear to god, I really would've preffered that that character assasination disgrace of a movie would have never existed, ending as it is or not.
Next, I like to retort to your opinion of how Naruto started to fall in love with Hinata in the Pein fight, well guess what, your facts, more specifically the movie, contradicts it, Naruto is stated in the movie as not knowing the difference between romantic love and love for ramen! (wich is utter bull for reasons I will not go into detail) but even leaving that aside you're saying that Naruto went 8-tails because he cared for Hinata more than other people well, that's BS too and I'll explain to you why.
Think back of all the times Naruto released unintenionally Kurama's chakra, It was always because of anger over Impotence:
- Sasuke "saves" Naruto from Haku's attack Naruto feels angered at his impotence of not being able to defeat Haku resulting in Sasuke's "death"
- At the Valley of the End, Naruto unleashed the power since out of impotence because he wasn't strong enough to stop Sasuke from leaving.
- When Orochimaru started antagonizing him at the bridge I don't remeber the name and don't wish to look it up, again, it was due to impotence of him not being able to retrive Sasuke earlier and how he wasn't to get Orochimaru to lead him to Sasuke
- At Pein's fight, It's the same thing, after seeing his village destroyed and being pinned down by the murderer of his master and his sensei, he exploits in anger due to the impotence of watching someone "die" RIGHT IN FRONT OF HIM while he was powerless to do anything about it.
All of what I said before are facts backed by the manga itself you know the SOURCE material, I kinda get and idea of which kind of person you are and you are not gonna change your mind but you won't be able to make others see things differently either.
You say you analize objectively but I've seen A LOT of subjetiveness in much of your posts, if you wish to debate over something first and foremost, get proper facts to back up your claims not speculation  over your favorite moments of your precious canon pairings.

 

Who are you and you wanna be my friend?

 

Same here. I get swept up by fun things before doing any work.
 
Yup. There are mushrooms that gets someone high. Want to try them ?

Maybe someday 0: but I'm scared!

Edited by Khaleesi, 31 July 2017 - 05:30 PM.

[BlackShirtGuy]

Who are you and you wanna be my friend?

Heiya, yeah sure I've seen your posts you and a lot of people here make very compelling arguments on your points, I actually been hanging in this forum for a little while now (maybe two months? it was since a little before Analyzer showed up), I plan to do an introductory thread later also telling my story of how I found this site and why I found it now, I also have a little funny story about something that happened pretty recently while I was discussing Naruto at one of my cousins house which I'm pretty sure you'll find out pretty hilarious xD

[Riverkid]

 

 

Note before I go on: Character Death is highly discouraged to beginning collegiate writers. Most do so because they don't know what else to do with the character. Or they're at the end. We aren't talking about killing an elder (Someone who is old anyway), or a minor character. We're talking about the second most important character. You can create a tragic backstory without death, you can color dark without death, as you illustrate above. You can color a serious, satisfying ending of Naruto without death. 

 

On this topic, Madara's death does more than just pave the way for Kaguya, for example. It is a Twist, a betrayal that you didn't see coming. The Stakes and power level are set higher. Granted, Kaguya's introduction/execution could have been slightly better, but it worked. 

 

Jirayai's death is actually common in the hero's journey where you have a mentor (Master) dying by a man later the apprentice avenges against them. It's an easy set-up: It sets stakes higher, and Naruto is put into a place to learn the skills to defeat Pain as fast as possible. He intially even fails, then nearly gives in until he is saved by the Father Figure, and then we complete apotheosis. So yes, your point of Jirayai is accurate, though here I am putting it into marking moments of the journey within the plot.

 

It's notable that Sasuke offers to die at his point. Naruto though, doesn't want him to, and says no. Instead, Sasuke does his redemption through life, rather than giving up his life. This is the brighter outcome. Sasuke dying would work too, but it would make the next moments darker and bittersweet. Which is better -is- in the eye of the beholder. You argue it is better if he died, but based on Naruto's goal and the tone of 700, what happened fits well into that mold. 

 

There's no set up of trust. Notably, Naruto and Kakashi pushed hard for Sasuke to be allowed to go free. So I'm not sure where Sasuke is automatically trusted comes from. 

 

So ultimately, no, death does -not- make a story better. It is certainly one of the simpler plot options, but it is not a better one. This is ultimately, yes, repeating word here, in what the author wants to do with their story. If you've ever done a workshop, you'll have a whole bunch of fellow writers, and the lead instructor, throw out possible ideas for your story, on what will improve it, etc. The thing is, on this element, it is what he author wants. They can choose a death, or not choose it, and both can be compelling endings. It is a purely subjective opinion which is better to a reader. 

 

So yes, in my mind, Kishimoto is about as skilled as J.K. Rowling, though I do -not- consider J.K. Rowling a stellar writer.

Besides adding some points on top of my argumentions you still refuse to support your standpoint outside of the "subjective" / "Writers intention" - Trumpcard.

Its like debating with a child who just likes to be stubborn and even enjoys it. 

What Naruto and Kishimoto wants, is the best for the Story. Thats all what im getting from you. So there is no reason to debate with someone who is so shortminded in that matter. 


"It's notable that Sasuke offers to die at his point. Naruto though, doesn't want him to, and says no. Instead, Sasuke does his redemption through life, rather than giving up his life. This is the brighter outcome. Sasuke dying would work too, but it would make the next moments darker and bittersweet. Which is better -is- in the eye of the beholder. You argue it is better if he died, but based on Naruto's goal and the tone of 700, what happened fits well into that mold. 

 

There's no set up of trust. Notably, Naruto and Kakashi pushed hard for Sasuke to be allowed to go free. So I'm not sure where Sasuke is automatically trusted comes from. 

 

So ultimately, no, death does -not- make a story better. It is certainly one of the simpler plot options, but it is not a better one. This is ultimately, yes, repeating word here, in what the author wants to do with their story. If you've ever done a workshop, you'll have a whole bunch of fellow writers, and the lead instructor, throw out possible ideas for your story, on what will improve it, etc. The thing is, on this element, it is what he author wants. They can choose a death, or not choose it, and both can be compelling endings. It is a purely subjective opinion which is better to a reader. "

 

Thx for pointing out the most obvious thing what happened with the story, you still dont get it.. sadly. Your replay was just a waste of time.

 

So ultimately, no, death does -not- make a story better. jesus xD

Edited by Riverkid, 31 July 2017 - 05:58 PM.

[Khaleesi]

You know, I decided to give this a lot of thought. And upon thinking about it, I think it could be great provided we got rid of the Pain arc and had a Sasuke attacks Konoha arc instead. That way, when Sasuke is killed, this can be the low point in the story and Naruto can take the lessons he's learned into the final arc (which, as long as we're talking about a rewrite, would not be the Kage Summit Arc or War arc, since both arcs are terrible). Problem is that I don't think Kishimoto could pull this off compellingly. We've seen his attempt to have Naruto learn that "not everyone can be saved" with Neji and that was awful. It would take someone of Togashi's (Hunter x Hunter) or Oda's (One Piece) caliber in order to do this RIGHT. Also, no "cycle of hatred" or "destiny" BS.
 
The way I see it, the scene could play out with Naruto and Sasuke duking it out in the Kage's mansion (which would be on fire). Naruto would get the upper hand, Sasuke would do something low/underhanded and Sakura herself would stab him from behind upon realizing that Naruto was about to be killed and Sasuke would mutter "you really are annoying" upon realizing what happened. Sasuke's dead and Naruto/Sakura are broken mentally. Then, one arc of recovery and lesson-learning and they'd be stronger than ever.
 
Under this setup, Karin wouldn't kill herself. She'd go after Naruto for revenge. Maybe even plan some kind of overly complicated assassination or something.

Uhmmm, I Guess I would like to Karin to kill herself but that also works.

  

idk at what point you guys are in the debate right now, but I've been thinking something about red herrings.
 
If NS is a red herring it works in our favour. Because 1. we were analyzing the manga right, not NH fans. 2. NH may have been 'planned' but plans matters not until they are carried out. So if NH was ~planned~ in ch1 it means nothing when it only happened on a whim in the very end. If Kishi says NS was a red herring, then you can't say you saw NH from afar.
 
There's more. A red herring is a short distraction. No red herring lasts for over 600 chapters LOL. This 'red herring' got its own events in Japan and big support from the main character's VA. And, Naruto is also not a romance manga, thus there'd be no need to mislead subplot that is always consistent and simple in the genre. Anyone who isn't a damn vegetable would see the lies here.

 

This is close to what I've said before but I Guess you didnt read it.

1. If NS was made to mislead, it means that it was credible enough for any person to believe it was an end-game.

2.To be red-herring Kishimoto had to throw several scenes that would support the thought of it to be an end-game.

Consecuences:

1.Over 600 chapters of NS material that supports their relationship.

2. Even with NH in mind, the story was build up as if was NS, thus NS making more sense.

 

Oh jeez, please can you stop using the mis-read argument? It's really insulting, first how do you do for "mis-reading" something? Are you saying that because people put more weight to the more numerous interactions of the main character and his partner who he had a crush on than his interactions with a SIDE character that he only interacted, what 5 times, we MISREAD the manga??? Sorry, but no that's not how it works that just showcases Kishimoto's bad writing and last minute decision, hey @Analyzer if the Pein moment for Hinata was so important to NH, Why is SAKURA who hugs him after the fight and not his "true love"??? I would really like to hear your explanation on that, futhermore, as @Shashank95 said you ignored most of my comment, completely, I said numerous fans boycotted everything after the ending and your response was the same exact thing, angy fans who didn't get his/her ship canon, do you ever stop and think, well maybe people didn't like it because we didn't see Naruto's Hokage Ceremony (Wich was later turned into a stupid punchline which is BLATANTLY INSULTING for longtime manga readers but I disgress), maybe fans were mad we didn't get any resolution to Team 7,  the whole plot of part 2 was get Sasuke back so team 7 can be together again, well newsflash man, team 7 is now more dispersed than ever, Kakashi retired, Naruto and Sakura are strangers to each other and Sasuke isn't never at the village, so a whole plot point of part 2 with no resolution, great.
People have said it before but I'm pretty sure the only reason you defend theese things is because you are a NH, SS fan more than an NS fan or at the very least, you are more a fan of the canon than everything else , or maybe you are so much of a fanatic that if something is canon you will always go back and find excuses on how to justify it even when you KNOW it was a total wreck from a writing standpoint.

<3

[Khaleesi]

Heiya, yeah sure I've seen your posts you and a lot of people here make very compelling arguments on your points, I actually been hanging in this forum for a little while now (maybe two months? it was since a little before Analyzer showed up), I plan to do an introductory thread later also telling my story of how I found this site and why I found it now, I also have a little funny story about something that happened pretty recently while I was discussing Naruto at one of my cousins house which I'm pretty sure you'll find out pretty hilarious xD

Yaaay, PM me later!

Also @Riverkid I also want to be your friend.

I love how you both write! This is how I bond(?)

[sushi.]

@Khaleesi Yeah I didn't read it XD I've been skimming through pages. I'm not sure if Kishimoto knows but he admitted that NS hints were there and we were supposed to read them as romantic. Thus even if it was a 'trick', we can safely assume that scenes like their reunion in Shippuden, the feeding scene, Yamato's comment etc. were romantic.

 

NH fans can't have both. Because they've been saying since forever that NS scenes were platonic, but if they were a red herring it means they have to have been romantic.