54213 replies to this topic

[Shashank95]

 

Because I'm the Dark Knight, clearly.

So we can finally assume you are a mentally challenged man, who dresses up and beats up the mentally insane?

[VanitasDS76491]

Did you ever wonder why they show this very close up , while the others just together , she got in one screen close up alone ?
 

It'd be werid if kishi asspulled hinata getting the rinnegan from this, don't think he wouldn't do that cause he would, I mean he ass pulled sasuke getting it and knowing it inside and outside without knowing what the rinnegan is.

[Shashank95]

 

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHHAHAHAHA After reading this, this might be my last message regarding this topic. Before answering to your text I have some other things so say: You declare you like logical reasoning but you fail SO much at it! The only thing you do is using pretty words and de-construction of ideas and definitions to support yourself when it reality you don't make sense It really is laughable. Either is that or you really, really don't understand what RiverKid or I have written, which I think it makes it excusable.

 

Nevertheless, I lean towards the former. Your subtle way of avoiding the central idea of a subject is either on purpose or an amateur failure. It may confuse others, but it makes me laugh. This is why I understand why other people don't want to waste their time discussing with you. 

 

I mean, I first listened to you. My POV was that NS made sense story-wise. You said NH made sense story wise. So I said, okay, let's listen to this, I'm ready to admit I was wrong if I was proven it was it, that's why I didn't even mentioned my opinion until later, but have done anything but prove it, just taking anything related to NH and highlighting it. 

 

From the moment I started discussing with you, you were not open-minded, nor ready to admit yourself wrong (and reformulate your argument) if the time would come. Which was already a warning for me. So, again, at least try to question yourself on why so many people get angry or annoyed at you. Of course, I do admit there are very emotional people here (as there would be anywhere), and that, well, this is a NS forum after all, there will be people that like NS over everything and won't listen to any reason that will contradict them, but besides them there are other users who also get annoyed at you after reading your argumentation and actually analyzing it.

 

Aaaanyway. Let us begin.

 

>"I already established how Kishimoto's interviews do NOT contradict eachother. A contradiction would be saying that NH was planned from the end, then in another, that it was planned from the beginning. To say in a second that he also says he considered Sakura does not contradict anything, simply because it does not invalidate that NH was planned from the beginning. A contradiction -must- be an invalidation, it cannot be a statement that does not match character per character. This is a failure of not understanding what a contradiction is. Fact, by the way, as we're discussing contradiction. Saying that he considered something, while having something planned, is not an opposed element."

 

All of this. No. Please. Stop. They DO contradict each other. And, yes, for the same reasons you wrote there. Opposed element, right? So he says the following:

 

- I was all about Naruto and Hinata getting married from the beggining.

- From the middle, actually.

- (after the movie) Well, quite some time ago.

 

 The three of them placed on a line of ten, could be represented like this:

 

|---1---2---3---4---5---6---7---8---9---10

 

^ Beggining.

                           ^ The middle.

                                                ^ Quite some time ago (aprox).

 

Tell me now, how are these not contradicting? 

 

***On a non-related note what he says about Sakura waving hearts between Naruto and Sasuke and how "changing hearts" would make her a very, very terrible woman, it's important to notice that's one reason why he decided the pairings to be the way they are, adding to the fact he also stated that he would pitty Hinata for not rewarding her after always watching over Naruto, even if Sakura did the same from the middle.***

 

>"On the first part, you're misunderstanding the point. The point is some arguments are stronger than others, while others are what we call baseless. A solid argument has a foundation built on fact, a weaker argument does not. Essentially, you cannot as readily counter a solid argument with just air, while pure speculation will fall as it has no legs."

 

I am not misunderstanding anything, sorry. I know what the point was and all the following you wrote. So, now, my point, was this: 

 

You wrote

 

      - "The Manga Says Something (Fact), I speculate something based on this fact."

      - "A Reader Infers something (Opinion), they speculate based on that opinion, as if it was fact"

                    

                       Right?
                        You are trying to say which are the differences and what it makes an opinion to have more value (base) to be part of an argumentation. So you tried to separate it on                                          3 ways of constructing it. Facts are the Manga and what Kishimoto says, those are our sources. Just as any other person, you are a reader so you also infer from what it is                                 shown. 

 

                                              

                                   

                         What do we see here? Naruto rapping. That's a fact. He's sweating. That's a fact. Bee without words. That's a fact. Now, following your example. Let's speculate                                                  based on this fact: Naruto is nervous about rapping and Bee isn't surprised.  He has probably never rap before, based on his awkwardness and Bee thinks is bad rapping.

                         Speculating based on what it is shown it's the same as infering. We don't know if Naruto hasn't tried to rap before, maybe he is just very bad at it. So we really can't                                              prove this, that's why it's an opinion. Both of them, havn't rap before and being bad at it, are reasonable inferences. The problem comes when you take your inference as truth,                            thus saying "I'm pretty sure Naruto hasn't rap before!!!" or "No, Naruto is only very bad at it, I'm sure he has tried it at least once."

                         

                         So those 2 examples on constructing a valid opinion for argumentation it's in reality only one:

                         The Manga says something (Fact), I speculate, so I infer (Opinion), then 1. or I treat it as what it is (an opinion) or as truth (as it was a fact)

                         

                         You treat your inferences as if they were correct, when in reality they are only speculations, yet you try to differentiate it from what whatever other people say,

 

>"So yes, because the Last shows that Naruto did not understand his love for Hinata, we can make inferences, which stand on fact, within the Manga that this is so. That they also end up together in 700, that we see text that Naruto feels the worst feelings ever at her supposed demise in 437, are all foundations for supporting a statement that the Proud Failure Speech was an important progressive moment in NH. Often people dismiss what comes after, but it is important? Certainly the Proud Failure Speech is no less supported than what comes before. They all fit seamlessly here, and certainly this speech by the way, separates the bonds alone."

 

This is over-reading. The Manga and the Movie are different things, in first place. Why? Principally because the Manga was thought and made by Kishimoto, while the Movie was thought and made by Pierrot (just another readers with their very own interpretations) with only Kishimoto's assistance. And this that the movie was already being made when the last manga chapters where being written so the plot of the movie has to affect the latest manga chaps.

 

" In my head, I had decided Naruto and Hinata to get together a bit after they became young adults. But I couldn’t think of an actual love story for the two and was not planning on drawing it. However, I wanted to circle back to the first chapter (of the series) by making Naruto have a son who graffities on the (now) Hokage Naruto’s rock face. So the idea of a [NH] love story wasn’t my idea at the start, however Pierrot staff suggested the movie to revolve around it (hence the final product being the way it is)."

 

If your theory is that Kishimoto tried to develop love not understood by Naruto for Hinata on the manga and he supported this on the movie, this is right up denied by the fact he didn't thought of the story for them both in the movie. He was too "embarrassed" by his own words on another interview to do any romance on the manga or later, so he let Pierrot do it for him.

 

What he says is this: "I wanted them both to come together in the future, but there wasn't any romantic about them in the manga, since they would only fall in love after they are above 18."

 

The Proud Failure Speech is an important moment for Hinata. And the "worst he has ever felt" you are taking it as it came only for Hinata, deleting all the mess that was his life at that moment. I mean, you think his whole village being blown up has nothing to do with the intense reaction from Naruto? Psychologycally doesn't make sense. He was under too much stress. Not to mention chapters before he was having problems not to giving himself up to distress and Kurama. This was just the natural outcome. He reacted badly also when Sakura was in danger and gave himself to Kurama, thought she was able to calm him down. After that, his seal was breaking more and more while the plot progressed, so, again, it was only the logical outcome. He was yet to control his emotions.

 

If you really want to prove how NH makes sense, you need to take only under consideration all the chapters that weren't being published while the movie was being written and directed, insomuch as the Movie (Pierrot invention) influenced Kishimoto's writting. As RiverKid said, the movie was made to justify their love, and the chapters under this influence are a by-product.

 

The theory that Naruto has loved Hinata before the war even is baseless and contradicting to Kishimoto's statements.

 

>"If you're looking for actual romance to show that they're a couple, you won't find any in the manga. The manga has zero romance, except 699 with Sasuke poking Sakura's forehead. That's it, really. If you want to find that, look in the Last. Mind, saying this, I don't want to fall into the place of saying any bond is more "special", it's simply that the bond as it was developed makes sense for NH to be endgame, which is really the crux of the argument. Thus why my statements are not going over and discussing and comparing otherw bonds of friendship."

 

Again, the Movie is an explanation on how they fall in love. IN THE MOVIE. So it has anything to do with the manga. Literally they had to developt their romance precisely in the future for that reason. 

And about what it's highlighted I've said I've read your follow up "progression" of their bond. And still doesn't make sense, you were just describing what it happened and gave it more meaning, that doesn't prove a thing. It is important to compare other people's interactions to determinate which one makes more sense, so I don't know what you are talking about. While writting, just as in real life, love is constructed by shared experiences, similarities, mutual empathy, sexual appeal and mutual support. That's why from a writter point of view, the bonds as they were developt that made sense if they ended up together are 4: Narusaku, sasusaku, narusasu and sasukarin. So it doesn't matter if Kishimoto constructed their bond from a red-herring purpose (both NS and SK), what he did made the ships make sense. But to be honest, Sasuke should have died.

 

>"Right, Good writing is about a lot of things, going to skip to the next part here, but I will repeat "Good" is subjective, as for each aspect of it has a weight that differs between reader, and further, each writing rule can be broken to "Good" or even "Great" effect."

 

I think Riverkid has answered to this very well so if you don't get what he said, it's most likely that you are doing it on purpose. There are subjective matters on writting, whether you like it or not is not the same as saying something is well done. 

 

>"You mis-state NH here, it's not one-sided admiration, but dual admiration. Naruto was awed by Hinata in her battle by Neji, by her speech before his fight with Neji, that she jumped in to save him in the Pain Arc, that she really got him out of it. There is this grave deep emotion that rises when Hinata is about, and it is this intense emotion, coupled with this admiration, that infers Love, that is love as confirmed by the Last. You ask why not just friends, and it is the intense deep emotions that really are why they are not just friends."

 

I thought you might have problems with that specific thing, but I thought about it. Hinata admires Naruto and Naruto, on the situations you listed, was surprised about her will, is as much the situational admiration you can register Naruto having for way more characters. Like when he sees and blushes while Sakura is saving Gaara's brother, thought, the latter being implied romantic.

 

>"NH maybe has one actual comical moment (When they first meet after three years), but NH, particularly none of the moments I listed above, don't play to comedy."

 

Agree. Why is this, thought? This moment was implied romantic. The rest it isn't. When romance is involved it all ends up in comic relief, why? Kishimoto said he was too embarrassed on doing it. There has to be a punch line at the end. Even tho it was a comical situation, it has real impact on the characters since this is what happens in their world as we are just readers, thus incluencing on how things should play out in the future taking in consideration all that has happened between characters in Narutoverse. It's psychological supported this way.

 

>"Your argument on NS doesn't really say -why- it should be more. Just because you are friends does not imply getting together." 

 

I did not stated an argument, I asked, which makes more sense from the progression of their bonds, which NS does. Surely, friendship doesn't mean future love, at all. But, again, from a writter point of view I rather pair up a couple that has lived throught hell and developt friendship over battle and suffering over the years and have a mutual goal than someone who liked the other character but doesn't really know him deeply or for what he's going through, it's a bad match and if I was on a relationship like that I would be unhappy as hell.

 

>"That said, I love their friendship, but any suggestion of it being more was quelled before the end."

 

Again, aren't we discussing what makes sense? Then why, again, you bring up what it was made (the ending and chapters under the movie influence) instead. We are not talking of what it was suggested (by Kishimoto, thus intention), we are talking about their bond progression to make it understandable to get together (by what happens in their own world -of the characters, thus the product). Intention doesn't determinate a product.

 

Example #1: I ate a banana I found on the table.  

 

- Intention: Eat a banana.

- Reason: I'm hungry.

- Product: My mother gets angry because I ate the banana she was saving.

 

Example #2: I buy tickets for a concert to go with my best friend.

 

- Intention: Birthday present.

- Reason: I appreaciate our friendship.

- Product: My friend gets sad because I bought the tickets to the wrong concert.

 

Example #3: Kishimoto writes with (said) intention on NH being the end-game.

 

- Intention: Developing a bond between them to justify/support their love.

- Reason: Decided that way from the beggining/middle/quite some time ago, whichever is the truth and because Hinata has always looked over Naruto.

- Product: Writes and develops more NS and makes comparisons in purpose to the MinaKushi ship and Kushina in specific to mislead, giving enough base and weight for this couple                  to be a reasonable end-game.

 

Now, as I've said before writing most of this, I've realized that I might not answer you on this from now on. Mostly because I think you don't make sense and I've said what I had to say. So it's up to you to take into consideration anything of what I've said, instead of taking one word of an argumentation and taking it out of context or relying your argument on a definition instead of logical reasoning.

 

I'm out.

Khaleesi is like got 24 kills on her last comment which gives her access to the Tactical Nuke to be used on her next arguments. And she just Nuked Analyzer from orbit.

[Shashank95]

You been owning this guy left and right. Take my ring? Lol.

She's the Godfather, I'll gladly kiss her ring! And if you meant the ring in the other sense, no comments!

[ultranx]

lol, Darkseid with ease.

heck sonic the hedgehog could beat em all, only needs one chaos emerald to completely break time by slowing it down, speeding it up or stopping it, all via chaos control plus warping. then with all 7 emeralds you get super forms and reality warping powers on top of all those, and invincibility to certain types of attacks, then there's hyper sonic which is basically super sonic without any of the weaknesses. and the chaos emeralds are gems with infinite power too. what was the phrase again?

The servers are the 7 Chaos. Chaos is power... Power enriched by the heart. The controller is the one that unifies the Chaos

 

in lame terms, basically they're gems of infinite power powered by the feelings in your heart, so say you're a hero who needs to protect someone, bam, super form, not enough, 7 super emeralds, hyper form, and basically they have no limit. but once you don't want the power anymore you lose the transformation and they scatter, or you can be like shadow and constantly carry one around for chaos control powers. point is, sonic could beat them all. heck he could probably use flash's speed force and beat flash, but I know that will make comic fans unhappy xD

there seems to be a misunderstanding what chaos control and the emeralds are actually capable of.

don't believe me, then you need to use the chaos control related moves in the games, those aren't just mechanics. team dark team blast can freeze time around the team, making enemies frozen midair for example. in sonic 06, they let you time travel, and why people deny this is beyond me when the time gems also did that in sonic cd. shadow uses it to skip levels in shadow the hedgehog, they use it to combat reality warping in sonic 06, sonic generations has it has a time break skill. then there's the comics but yeah xD and I'm pretty sure I haven't covered all of the game versions of chaos control in action either xD

Edited by ultranx, 31 July 2017 - 02:20 AM.

[Shashank95]

 

Very rude, again. I've tried to be rather respectful and don't appreciate this comment.

 

 

When Hinata gets wrapped up in the manga, it's noticeably that the next panel is Naruto wanting to rush out. This plays into a foundation of Hinata causing intense emotions from Naruto.

 

 

This is also a little too disrespectful. My comment was a joke to the Why So Serious? This is just an insult that shouldn't be said to anyone.

 

 

2. There is no foundation to play into. Are you seriously that ignorant to not see that there has been no development between Naruto and Hinata for all the chapters there are in the manga? 
The fact that Kishi had to make a damn movie to give credence to the damn pairing is proof of that statement. If NH had been developed and had a foundation to stand on, why make a movie completely based on the pairing?

And please show us these foundations that you keep kittening on about. Show us the scans of scenes which act as your little foundation and watch us tear that foundation by the root.

“Life before Death.
Strength before Weakness.
Journey before Destination.” 

 

“Sometimes the prize is not worth the costs. The means by which we achieve victory are as important as the victory itself.” 

 

“And so, does the destination matter? Or is it the path we take? I declare that no accomplishment has substance nearly as great as the road used to achieve it. We are not creatures of destinations. It is the journey that shapes us. Our callused feet, our backs strong from carrying the weight of our travels, our eyes open with the fresh delight of experiences lived.”

Go read these quotes 10-15 times for your mind to understand since you don't seem to understand any of the arguments put forth here.

Journey before destination. The two characters in question need to go on a journey, here the journey is their growth and dynamics. No matter how you word your petty little arguments, how well you throw subtle insults at us, it doesn't mask the fact that NH has had no journey. There has been no development.
 

If you still wanna argue, back up your "logical argument with logic" meaning actual canon panels.

 

 

3. Last time I checked, You said you thought those comments were serious. You've been mocking us for a while now. Doesn't feel good to be on the other end of the table, does it?

 

Good day!

Edited by Shashank95, 31 July 2017 - 02:23 AM.

[Charger76]

I understand the frustration, but let's keep things respectful. She may have a differring opinion that she is very strongly defending that we may not agree with, but she hasn't been rude

[FutureHalfofFamer]

 

Going to address 3 first, and will take a brief moment on 2:

 

I'll engage in humor, don't even mind those sort of jokes, don't even mind others praising their arguments as slamming mine down. Zero wrong with that. But when you start throwing out implication of mental disabilities, you're going a little too far, and I'll ask you to stop.

 

On 2:

 

I believe I went over 2 earlier, actually, when I went over Naruto and hinata's development, if you like I can copy it over.

 

The arcs referenced were the Chuunin Exams, were I established the sort of bond effect that took place: In Hinata Vs. Neji, intense emotion, with the action of Naruto making a blood vow to defeat Neji. Mirrored in the Pain Arc, of Naruto giving into Kyuubi. Also mirrored in the last with Naruto practically giving up until Shikamaru/Sakura snap him out of it. There's also the mirror of Hinata encouraging Naruto, as seen in the Proud Failure Speech, mirrored again in 615, both times pulling Naruto out of self-doubt. The foundation is intense emotion. It is well executed, but as constantly pointed out, underutilized. This isn't getting into mutual admiration or acknowledgement or deep understanding of each other's characters.

 

I mean, NH development is -not- debatable. You can argue it wasn't well executed (I think it was), or that the story over or underutilized it (I say under). But saying there is no development isn't really something you can stand on.

 

Sakura also did the same exact thing by slapping Naruto and waking him up during their encounter with Itachi. But I guess that gets swept under the rug and ignored of course.

 

NH development isn't debatable but NS development which supersedes the NH development by the trillions is debatable? Seriously, never post again.

 

Also, get banned.

Edited by FutureHalfofFamer, 31 July 2017 - 03:17 AM.

[Shashank95]

 

Going to address 3 first, and will take a brief moment on 2:

 

I'll engage in humor, don't even mind those sort of jokes, don't even mind others praising their arguments as slamming mine down. Zero wrong with that. But when you start throwing out implication of mental disabilities, you're going a little too far, and I'll ask you to stop.

 

On 2:

 

I believe I went over 2 earlier, actually, when I went over Naruto and hinata's development, if you like I can copy it over.

 

The arcs referenced were the Chuunin Exams, were I established the sort of bond effect that took place: In Hinata Vs. Neji, intense emotion, with the action of Naruto making a blood vow to defeat Neji. Mirrored in the Pain Arc, of Naruto giving into Kyuubi. Also mirrored in the last with Naruto practically giving up until Shikamaru/Sakura snap him out of it. There's also the mirror of Hinata encouraging Naruto, as seen in the Proud Failure Speech, mirrored again in 615, both times pulling Naruto out of self-doubt. The foundation is intense emotion. It is well executed, but as constantly pointed out, underutilized. This isn't getting into mutual admiration or acknowledgement or deep understanding of each other's characters.

 

I mean, NH development is -not- debatable. You can argue it wasn't well executed (I think it was), or that the story over or underutilized it (I say under). But saying there is no development isn't really something you can stand on.

Naruto would have done the same for anyone, the blood vow I mean. He was pissed off at Gaara for hurting Sakura, he was pissed off at Haku for "Killing" Sasuke. But hey let's just use this point for NH development. The whole Kyuubi thing in the Pain arc is getting old. As someone pointed out, Naruto's seal had been steadily weakening since his trip with Jiraiya and his emotional state was questionable in the least. Added to the fact that his village was destroyed and finally Hinata got her ass smacked by Pain right infront of Naruto which I find that no Naruto fan seems to point out as a dumbass move but everyone points Sakura fighting Madara as stupid. Hinata's ass whooping is just a small cog in the machine that Naruto's breakdown. You once form your own opinions and try to pass it off as a fact. As for 615, She plays the broken record and says the same thing that Kurama was screaming at Naruto, so there is nothing there. Once again proves how shallow the pairing is that you need to kill the only decent Hyuga in the story to appease NH fans.

There is intense emotion, only from Hinata which is basically her hormones raging and her wish to be Naruto's wife. It's pretty well established in the manga that even till the final chapters, ~690s the only one that Naruto had an eye for is Sakura.

And once again you fail to back your "facts" with scans which renders your points as invalid as you claim ours is.

[Khaleesi]

What are you guys doing still talking? it's midnight

 

Tsk. Tsk. Workaholic

I'm a very hard procastinator.

 

 

I need more bling-bling(?) 

 

Khaleesi is like got 24 kills on her last comment which gives her access to the Tactical Nuke to be used on her next arguments. And she just Nuked Analyzer from orbit.

It's well known that a nuke looks like a mushroom. Which makes me think on the drug I mean, are they real mushrooms that you have to eat to get high?

 

She's the Godfather, I'll gladly kiss her ring! And if you meant the ring in the other sense, no comments!

So am I the mafia?

Edited by Khaleesi, 31 July 2017 - 04:27 AM.

[Yyubie]

When Hinata gets wrapped up in the manga, it's noticeably that the next panel is Naruto wanting to rush out. This plays into a foundation of Hinata causing intense emotions from Naruto.

[Shashank95]

 

Okay, guess you aren't going to stop.

 

My point was its not really debatable that NH development existed. How does NS development supercede NH by the trillions? I mean, a notably part of development is...concluding? Not to even talk about the rest.

 

 

 

 

 

1: Wait, starting with the end first, who in the world says anything about Sakura fighting Madara as stupid? I have not seen this, anywhere. I won't deny it exists out of someone's mind somewhere, but it's certainly not a common thought. I've seen more (people who hate the pairing and ending specifically) point out that Hinata going out to save Naruto was dumb. Personally, Sakura fighting Madara was awesome. So was Hinata standing up to pain, even if it was futile. People say it's stupid, thinking with pure logic "You don't stand a chance" mentality. But Hinata could not -stand- doing nothing. She acted out of love, a very, very relatable thing to do. We can't use arguments that "The state was weakening", because Naruto tells you -exactly- why it happened. You can infer other elements, but the core fact will always remain he chose to do it because of Hinata. This is why "He'd do it for others" doesn't work either, because, he doesn't, really. What he dose in this moment, and what he does in other is very different.

 

2: And this develops into outright bashing, not to mention isn't correct.

 

3: I'm actually referring to points in the manga. Not sure what you are talking about.

God you are ignorant. Once again, please show the scans where Naruto specifically states he's losing himself to the Ninetails because Hinata got her ass whooped in front of him. 

Else, I'll repeat myself. You are just another fan speculating on something that has no concrete evidence which makes your claims of Facts as invalid you repeatedly claimed ours to be. Now Git!

[BlackShirtGuy]

@Analyzer 
I still don't understand what you stand for and what you expect to do here, if it bothers you that much that there are people who don't see the things like you do, why are you still arguing? You're not discussing, discussing or debating would mean that you're using facts or official data of the series to back up your unfounded claims, but no, your "facts" is just saying: "no, you guys are  wrong because you are being biased and confusing opinions with facts".

Well let me give you my two cents, First if the ending was not bad as some people think it is, why do everything that came after it suffered that much backlash? I mean everyone likes to chalk it up to ("the salty Narusaku fans") , people didn't like the ending, oh they are just salty narusakfans, people didn't like The Last oh they are just angry narusaku fans.
No, there is a reason people didn't like any of those things and It's been said before, it's because the story doesn't made any sense, how Naruto "fallls" in love with Hinata doesn't make sense either I swear to god, I really would've preffered that that character assasination disgrace of a movie would have never existed, ending as it is or not.

Next, I like to retort to your opinion of how Naruto started to fall in love with Hinata in the Pein fight, well guess what, your facts, more specifically the movie, contradicts it, Naruto is stated in the movie as not knowing the difference between romantic love and love for ramen! (wich is utter bull for reasons I will not go into detail) but even leaving that aside you're saying that Naruto went 8-tails because he cared for Hinata more than other people well, that's BS too and I'll explain to you why.

Think back of all the times Naruto released unintenionally Kurama's chakra, It was always because of anger over Impotence:
- Sasuke "saves" Naruto from Haku's attack Naruto feels angered at his impotence of not being able to defeat Haku resulting in Sasuke's "death"
- At the Valley of the End, Naruto unleashed the power since out of impotence because he wasn't strong enough to stop Sasuke from leaving.
- When Orochimaru started antagonizing him at the bridge I don't remeber the name and don't wish to look it up, again, it was due to impotence of him not being able to retrive Sasuke earlier and how he wasn't to get Orochimaru to lead him to Sasuke
- At Pein's fight, It's the same thing, after seeing his village destroyed and being pinned down by the murderer of his master and his sensei, he exploits in anger due to the impotence of watching someone "die" RIGHT IN FRONT OF HIM while he was powerless to do anything about it.

All of what I said before are facts backed by the manga itself you know the SOURCE material, I kinda get and idea of which kind of person you are and you are not gonna change your mind but you won't be able to make others see things differently either.
You say you analize objectively but I've seen A LOT of subjetiveness in much of your posts, if you wish to debate over something first and foremost, get proper facts to back up your claims not speculation  over your favorite moments of your precious canon pairings. 
 

Edited by BlackShirtGuy, 31 July 2017 - 07:35 AM.

[Shashank95]

@Analyzer 
I still don't understand what you stand for and what you expect to do here, if it bothers you that much that there are people who don't see the things like you do, why are you still arguing? You're not discussing, discussing or debating would mean that you're using facts or official data of the series to back up your unfounded claims, but no your "facts" is just saying: "no, you guys are  wrong because you are being biased and confusing opinions with facts".

Well let me give you my two cents, First if the ending was not bad as some people think it is, why do everything that came after it suffered that much backlash? I mean everyone likes to chalk it up to ("the salty Narusaku fans") , people didn't like the ending, oh they are just salty narusakfans, people didn't like The Last oh they are just angry narusaku fans.
No, there is a reason people didn't like any of those things and It's been said before, it's because the story doesn't made any sense, how Naruto "fallls" in love with Hinata doesn't make sense either I swear to god, I really would've preffered that that character assasination disgrace of a movie would have never existed, ending as it is or not.

Next, I like to retort to your opinion of how Naruto started to fall in love with Hinata in the Pein fight, well guess what, your facts, more specifically the movie, contradicts it, Naruto is stated in the movie as not knowing the difference between romantic love and love for ramen! (wich is utter bull for reasons I will not go into detail) but even leaving that aside you're saying that Naruto went 8-tails because he cared for Hinata more than other people well, that's BS too and I'll explain to you why.

Think back of all the times Naruto released unintenionally Kurama's chackra, It was always because of anger over Impotence:
- Sasuke "saves" Naruto from Haku's attack Naruto feels angered at his impotence of not being able to defeat Haku resulting in Sasuke's "death"
- At the Valley of the End, Naruto unleashed the power since out of impotence because he wasn't strong enough to stop Sasuke from leaving.
- When Orochimaru started antagonizing him at the bridge I don't remeber the name and don't wish to look it up, again, it was due to impotence of him not being able to retrive Sasuke earlier and how he wasn't to get Orochimaru to lead him to Sasuke
- At Pein's fight, It's the same thing, after seeing his village destroyed and being pinned down by the murderer of his master and his sensei, he exploits in anger due to the impotence of watching someone "die" RIGHT IN FRONT OF HIM while he was powerless to do anything about it.

All of what I said before are facts backed by the manga itself you know the SOURCE material, I kinda get and idea of which kind of person you are and you are not gonna change your mind but you won't be able to make others see things differently either.
You say you analize objectively but I've seen A LOT of subjetiveness in much of your posts, if you wish to debate over something first and foremost, get proper facts to back up your claims not speculation  over your fauvorite moments of your precious canon pairings. 
 

 

 

 

 

Thank you! Thank you! I've already lost my damn mind debating her. If this goes on for any longer, I think I might get banned probably.

[The Doctor forever]

 

 

 

 

Thank you! Thank you! I've already lost my damn mind debating her. If this goes on for any longer, I think I might get banned probably.

If it happen Evil100 has set up a forum on fanfiction we can all go too.

[Shashank95]

If it happen Evil100 has set up a forum on fanfiction we can all go too.

Can you PM me the link?

[Riverkid]

 

This is a good post and you've made a lot of good points, but I'd have to disagree with this part. Sasuke should have gotten his comeuppance and Naruto should've learned what being hokage was about (i.e. not this "if I can't even save a friend, I can't be hokage" BS) , but unless Sasuke's death is of his own volition (realizing the error of his ways in the end and sacrificing himself to save Naruto---perhaps even with a good throwback to Zabuza arc when he jumped in the way to save Naruto from Haku), I'm just not sure it fits thematically to up and kill him off. I just can't see that kid who went out of his way to make a promise of lifetime promise to bring Sasuke back turning around and offing the dude without a boatload of character development to justify it.

 

 

​Maybe, but based on what was built up, not having Sasuke die was fine.

Based on what was built up it would totally make 100% more sense to let him die.
How can you call yourself a 'write' if u aren't even able to understand that his death would have improved the story way more.
 

Edited by Riverkid, 31 July 2017 - 12:11 PM.

[tricksie]

I understand the frustration, but let's keep things respectful. She may have a differring opinion that she is very strongly defending that we may not agree with, but she hasn't been rude

Yes, yes, yes.

 

Seriously, if you don't want to debate, then don't!!!!! No one's forcing you! But stop posting crap about how they're awful, etc., just because you don't agree, then call for them to be blocked/banned?!?

 

Let the people who want to debate if they want to. You don't have to. There are plenty of other NS topics to talk about.

[T XD]

I'm a very hard procastinator.

It's well known that a nuke looks like a mushroom. Which makes me think on the drug I mean, are they real mushrooms that you have to eat to get high?

Same here. I get swept up by fun things before doing any work.

 

Yup. There are mushrooms that gets someone high. Want to try them ?

[ThroughWithLove]

I know it's a shonen manga but Hunter x Hunter is also for kids, yet had treated their alike characters (Gon and Killua/Kurapika) as how I would wanted to Naruto.

 

Sasuke should have died trying to redeem himself and saving Team 7, this would not redeem him, as for death to be a fair punishment for his crimes. Either this to be more idealistic 8as how Naruto discourse goes) or having him die following his ideals, which makes sense on how his character was build up. This would made Team 7 very sad, but even if Naruto and Sakura desired to save him, that is not always reality, see Darth Vader. For me, he should have died as a villian. And Naruto should have learn he can't save everyone and how selfish and obssesive of him was to pursue him and justify Sasuke's actions. Naruto doesn't really understands Sasuke, so I deeply understand why Sasuke gets annoyed at Naruto's, Sakura's and Kakashi's presence always on his tail.

 

Sasuke's death would have been a hell of a ground-breaking bonding moment and character development for Naruto and Sakura.

 

On a darker note, I would have also killed off Karin by suicide   But that's another story...

 

You know, I decided to give this a lot of thought. And upon thinking about it, I think it could be great provided we got rid of the Pain arc and had a Sasuke attacks Konoha arc instead. That way, when Sasuke is killed, this can be the low point in the story and Naruto can take the lessons he's learned into the final arc (which, as long as we're talking about a rewrite, would not be the Kage Summit Arc or War arc, since both arcs are terrible). Problem is that I don't think Kishimoto could pull this off compellingly. We've seen his attempt to have Naruto learn that "not everyone can be saved" with Neji and that was awful. It would take someone of Togashi's (Hunter x Hunter) or Oda's (One Piece) caliber in order to do this RIGHT. Also, no "cycle of hatred" or "destiny" BS.

 

The way I see it, the scene could play out with Naruto and Sasuke duking it out in the Kage's mansion (which would be on fire). Naruto would get the upper hand, Sasuke would do something low/underhanded and Sakura herself would stab him from behind upon realizing that Naruto was about to be killed and Sasuke would mutter "you really are annoying" upon realizing what happened. Sasuke's dead and Naruto/Sakura are broken mentally. Then, one arc of recovery and lesson-learning and they'd be stronger than ever.

 

Under this setup, Karin wouldn't kill herself. She'd go after Naruto for revenge. Maybe even plan some kind of overly complicated assassination or something.