54213 replies to this topic

[VanitasDS76491]

Kishi has stated that even Kaguya is somewhere on the same level as Nappa. kittening Nappa who was manhandled by a pure Kaioken Goku. Darkseid would not even bother fighting those Metahuman wannabes that call themselves Ninjas.

OHaving he might given right motives and wanting to rule them and use the Anti life equation.
If it's tfs nappa kaguya doesn't stand I chance hell no one stand a chance against tfs nappa.

[BlueStarSaber]

I think that when you put all of the interviews together (including the ones made prior to the ending), you get the sense that Kishimot wanted to make Sakura a proper heroine, but simply had no idea how to go about doing this. He tried to make her prettier and tried giving her new abilities, but nothing would stick and her popularity continued to be at issue. In one interview, he outright says that he will try to make her a proper heroine from now on. But no matter what he did, she just never fell into place. At the same, he's facing pressure from Studio Pierott (see one of the above interviews where he mentions said studio's desire for a NH movie). He's also watching youtube interviews from diehard NH supporters like Sawyer7 (who he specifically mentions as having watched). So finally, he says "screw it." Lo and behold, a one note side character becomes a heroine overnight and Sakura's arc spends the reminder of its time fading away into obscurity. A side character who I could literally and easily edit out of this 700 chapter manga in a smooth fashion if someone were willing to draw me 20-30 new pages of content and material. 
 
Of course, I'm very much inclined to agree with our good friend, Riverkid and the following assessment: 
 

 
And for me, I never really cared about "shipping" NS in the traditional sense. I simply looked at the character progression throughout much of the story and saw NS as the logical outcome of Sakura's character arc, especially considering the author has never specified a reason as to why she's in love with Sasuke. For much of the manga, her arc appeared to center around the themes of maturity and self-discovery and it appeared that Naruto's feelings for her was the vehicle for these themes to be explored. But alas, that never came to fruition. And not only did that never come to fruition, but so did a great deal of things in this series  that simply leaves me scratching my head to this very day.

Honestly if you ask me if kishimoto wanted Sakura to be liked have her 1 no longer in love with Sasuke (caring as friend/teammate at best).
2 have her in fights more because Naruto is also a battle manga so we except the characters to be in fights be they 1 on 1 or team ups, heck her fight against sasori was voted 3rd most popular in the 3rd databook with on quote from a fan from Japan saying how amazed he/she was with Sakura's growth and the war had plenty of opportunities for her to be apart of but it never happened

Edited by BlueStarSaber, 30 July 2017 - 12:10 PM.

[Phantom_999]

Well You are free to like the ending. You are free to enjoy Naruto in general, and are definitely free to debate. the only thing is why are you saying that the lot of us here have misread the manga and interpreted everything wrong? You yourself admitted that you were raging over NS not happening at first and only stopped because you hurt a friend's feelings. That doesn't mean you were wrong. You have THE RIGHT to be angry with the ending. If you want to take a step back and find that maybe you overreacted and should focus what you enjoyed about Naruto there's nothing wrong with that.

 

But that doesn't mean that you should twist facts and say that you were seeing it all wrong. If that were the case why would you be furious and hurt your friend in the first place? You are free to enjoy Naruto and there's nothing wrong with that. But that doesn't change anything, the only thing that should change is your perspective on it. Naruto and Sakura did not happen.Yes. but that does not change the fact that the moments between them showing that they SHOULD HAVE BEEN A COUPLE are there. Naruto and Hinata were the official couple. Yes. But that does not change the fact that they barely interacted at all in the manga and that Hinata is an underdeveloped character whose stole a spotlight for herself because she has "so many admirers in the Shueisha editors staff and studio Pierrot". Again that is why "The Last" was even changed into the movie that it was for the final revision. Naruto did NOT meet Hinata before he bonded with Iruka and he did NOT know Shadow clone when he was not even 10 years old. 

 

By all means love the movie, love the series, and love everything Naruto. No one is antagonizing you for that. But don't say that everything you (and we) have read is wrong ath that were were blind to what the series is about. Again if that were true why would the ending have angered us in the first place? We have much to be angry about. The parings not happening are the least of our problems, It's the fact that the original manga concluded by throwing all of it's core themes out the window. No, I am not making that up just to feel better about hating chapter 699 and 700, a lot of us see that beneath the pairings that are crack fiction at best, there were a lot of goals that failed to come true. Peace was not achieved, Sasuke still left the village of his own accord even when Naruto fought him to near death to convince him to come back, etc. 

 

You can say we don't have to make sense of the ending to love it and that's fine. But it is another thing to say everything we have a problem with it because we interpreted everything wrong wrong and what you say is fact. The facts remain facts. It's whether or not you like it is what matters. Criticizing something is by no means saying you don't enjoy it and that is where we are disagreeing. You feel that there can be no criticisms towards a series if you are a real fan of it and that is a fallacy. You can enjoy a series and acknowledge its flaws. Let me share a story. Back when I still enjoyed the series, I knew that some members here did not enjoy some of the writing in the story and I was finding validity in their arguments. In fact I see those exact same flaws myself. Did that stop me from enjoying the series? No. Just because you love a series doesn't mean you have to be blind to its faults nor does that mean that you have to defend it to the point of saying that the other side's perspective is wrong, even though they are only stating factual evidence.

 

The only difference here is that you love the story still, where we have long given up on it. That's fine. but that doesn't change what the story was about and what we were reading. We are not making stuff up because we hate the ending. If you are saying we interpret the scenes differently, fine that is fair. But don't act like our views are interpretation and yours is fact if you are bringing up the interpratation argument you admit your views have no more validity than ours

Edited by Phantom_999, 30 July 2017 - 03:18 PM.

[Shashank95]

Well You are free to like the ending. You are free to enjoy Naruto in general, and are definitely free to debate. the only thing is why are you saying that the lot of us here have misread the manga and interpreted everything wrong? You yourself admitted that you were raging over NS not happening at first and only stopped because you hurt a friend's feelings. That doesn't mean you were wrong. You have THE RIGHT to be angry with the ending. If you want to take a step back and find that maybe you overreacted and should focus what you enjoyed about Naruto there's nothing wrong with that.

 

But that doesn't mean that you should twist facts and say that you were seeing it all wrong. If that were the case why would you be furious and hurt your friend in the first place? You are free to enjoy Naruto and there's nothing wrong with that. But that doesn't change anything, the only thing that should change is your perspective on it. Naruto and Sakura did not happen.Yes. but that does not change the fact that the moments between them showing that they SHOULD HAVE BEEN A COUPLE are there. Naruto and Hinata were the official couple. Yes. But that does not change the fact that they barely interacted at all in the manga and that Hinata is an underdeveloped character whose stole a spotlight for herself because she has "so many admirers in the Shueisha editors staff and studio Pierrot". Again that is why "The Last" was even changed into the movie that it was for the final revision. Naruto did NOT meet Hinata before he bonded with Iruka and he did NOT know Shadow clone when he was not even 10 years old. 

 

By all means love the movie, love the series, and love everything Naruto. No one is antagonizing you for that. But don't say that everything you (and we) have read is wrong ath that were were blind to what the series is about. Again if that were true why would the ending have angered us in the first place? We have much to be angry about. The parings not happening are the least of our problems, It's the fact that the original manga concluded by throwing all of it's core themes out the window. No, I am not making that up just to feel better about hating chapter 699 and 700, a lot of us see that beneath the pairings that are crack fiction at best, there were a lot of goals that failed to come true. Peace was not achieved, Sasuke still left the village of his own accord even when Naruto fought him to near death to convince him to come back, etc. 

 

You can say we don't have to make sense of the ending to love it and that's fine. But it is another thing to say everything we have a problem with it because we interpreted everything wrong wrong and what you say is fact. The facts remain facts. It's whether or not you like it is what matters. Criticizing something is by no means saying you don't enjoy it and that is where we are disagreeing. You feel that there can be no criticisms towards a series if you are a real fan of it and that is a fallacy. You can enjoy a series and acknowledge its flaws. Let me share a story. Back when I still enjoyed the series, I knew that some members here did not enjoy some of the writing in the story and I was finding validity in their arguments. In fact I see those exact same flaws myself. Did that stop me from enjoying the series? No. Just because you love a series doesn't mean you have to be blind to its faults nor does that mean that you have to defend it to the point of saying that the other side's perspective is wrong, even though they are only stating factual evidence.

 

The only difference here is that you love the story still, where we have long given up on it. That's fine. but that doesn't change what the story was about and what we were reading. We are not making stuff up because we hate the ending. If you are saying we interpret the scenes differently, fine that is fair. But don't act like our views are interpretation and yours is fact if you are bringing up the interpratation argument you admit your views have no more validity than ours

 

[Riverkid]

 

Quality of writing is absolutely, irrefutably subjective. Just as beauty is in the eye of the beholder, so is quality. There are of course, certain traits that we note are in successful stories that are used, but there is also stories with every broken rule that rake in great success.

As i said: "The overall-quality is dependent on how well the Writingstyle fits with the other components". However a component such as 'Writing' can be analyzed to the point where u can rate wheter or not the Writing supports/provides the Plot well or not.

Of course there many style of Writings which can only be valued by the taste of each individual beholder, but we don't discuss the 'style/art' of Writing. Its about the pace, the intention of a dialogue/monologue, the introduction of a new charachter or arc, the perspective of the scene, the conclusion and moral etc.

No matter how good your style of Writing is, you can't just write a fast-pace moment in a romance-scene to build up the tension because you lose your intention to build up the tension with the fast-pace writingstyle. It needs to be slow-paced, detailed, with a closed perspective to each person and each of their reactions.

You see where im going? Writing isn't subjectiv, it has it place and can provide the Plot well OR NOT. If your writing has some weaknesses you just can't say "well, its subjective anyways, so i dont need to improve". If your writing su*ks then it su*ks, and your just harm your Story with that.

Kishimoto sometimes provided really good writing, even short ones.
Pain after killing Hinata: "Out of Love, sacrifice is born... hate is born.. and we are able to know pain". 
Its not just a short quote with a big message, it summs up what most of the villains and antagonist went through in Naruto (Itachi, Pain, Tobi, Madara, Sasuke etc.) and the moment was just well placed after killing Hinata to initiate the upcoming 'real' fight between them to determine which 'Hate' of them is bigger, and we know how important 'Hate' takes place in the Narutoverse. Thats also btw my biggest highlight in the whole Story.

Of course there are other example where Kishi showed good experienced writing, but they dont stand a chance against all the mistakes and weaknesses he let through to harm his story.

Take a look at Sakura. Back in Part-1 you couldnt' stand or like her, because her Characterdesign was terrible. Can u blame the haters? Sakura was basically only a Ninja to follow Sasukes footsteps, not because she got other moral impulses to be a Ninja.

How can you allow that if u provide her Character with so much screenstime and importance in Naruto ? It only provoces a negative reaction from the Fanbase, and it happened ALOT. Kishimot harmed Sakura because of his bad Characterwriting and Design. 
Of course her Design went better after meeting Tsunade, where she suddenly got the drive to become a good kunoichi. Did Kishimoto made use of that? sadly No. She was trained by a 'Hokage', and couldn't support Naruto Characterwise with the experience she gained from a Hokage... because she was busy looking for Sasuke, the same goes for Naruto.
 

 

 

The last part is odd: You say you don't care about pairings, but are constantly addressing, and even stating one makes more sense, for the rest of the thing. I'm not saying you are lying, but from all the reading I've done here and other places, this suggests an upset about pairings person.

 

I never 'constantly' adressed that NS makes more sense than NH, it was just that one statemnt i made. 

"However if the Story were written in a more reasonable way and with way better 'writing' i think NS would make alot more sense than NH, not because i like them more as a couple"

From a writing-standpoint there were too many things which made no sense at all in the Story. Its not only the Sasuke-obsession from Naruto and Sakura. There are many things.

1. The Point of having Hinata in the Story makes little to no sense. Her Character solely relates to the Character of Naruto, and not around the Narutoverse. Most of the other Supportive-Characters atleast represent some unique Clans and abilities, but we already had Neji who represent the Hyuga-Clan pretty well on his own. You could maybe argue that Hinata provided the tension between the two Hyuga-houses by having a difficult/heated realtionship with Neji in Part-1. However since the Hyuga-Clan never really mattered after Part-1 i dont see the importance in that matter.

The Problem is that she isn't even supporting Naruto Characterwise, atleast Kishimoto made never use of it. I could understand the meaning of Hinata if she were the reason to let Naruto shift his attention towards Sasuke away, so Naruto can focus on the Person who looks after him instead of the Person who keeps the distance (develop his character atleast). That would atelast justifies her Character more, but sadly that kitten never happened. Even when Hinata stand infront of Pain to save Naruto, it didn't had any influences on the following Story neither on Naruto. It was just another moment to set-up a romantic end-game between them. Kishimoto stated that 'Romance' wasn't focused as a Genre in Naruto, then why does he create a Character who provides almost nothing Plotwise except to set-up a (end-game) romantic-relationship between them ? and of course to make up 5-10% of all flashbacks happend in the Story (we should never forget that)

2. How does Sasuke not die ? The main problem is that u can do whatever u want in the narutoverse, at the end everyone will forgive you. Orochimaru killed two Kage and many shinobis, and is allowed to walk free in the Narutoverse. Tobi killed the 4th Hokage, Narutos Mother, attacked konoha with the 9-tails, killed the uchiha-clan... and is considered as a 'friend' in the end of the last arc. ??? 
Sasuke is breaking bad, helps akatsuki, attacked the kage, and turns against Naruto in the final Battle.. not to mention all the attemps to kill his former teammates. Punishment and 'Consequnces' are lost words in the Narutoverse.

Its just a dragged out fairytale-verse where Kishimoto tried to force the way of - "dont answer hate with hate or consequences, but instead with 'love' and understanding to give them a chance to be better". Here is a thing, maybe Orochimaru and the other villains just did they evil-things because they knew they will get away with it no matter what. Sasuke should have died in my opinion, for the sake of the Story, to make it a Story with a good ending. The Ending would have made such a better impression if Sasuke would have died through out the hands of Naruto. Sasuke achieved everything, his part from a character-standpoint was done and finished.. it would have been the perfect moment for Kishimoto to build-up his death in the last Arc. 

3. The Protagonist is a little Kid. Naruto is a little Kid in the entire Show. No answers, always tries to debate with his antagonists, and doesnt have the balls to kill them. Naruto is just the insert-Character of Kishimoto to provide his Story with his fairy-tale nonsense. He doesnt grow, he doesnt develop. He stays the same from the beginning, just with a lot more Power at the end. 

...

i dont want to drag it out too much. What i want to say if the story had a better flow, a reasonable and logical flow.. NS would make more sense. Sadly Naruto had to be the sinking-ship titanic with plotholes, unused potential and sometimes unnecessary elements.. and all that compared with unexperienced Writing which just harmed the story more than it did good.

 

 

Edited by Riverkid, 30 July 2017 - 04:08 PM.

[Shashank95]

 

Behold SS greatness!

[Shashank95]

As i said: "The overall-quality is dependent on how well the Writingstyle fits with the other components". However a component such as 'Writing' can be analyzed to the point where u can rate wheter or not the Writing supports/provides the Plot well or not.

Of course there many style of Writings which can only be valued by the taste of each individual beholder, but we don't discuss the 'style/art' of Writing. Its about the pace, the intention of a dialogue/monologue, the introduction of a new charachter or arc, the perspective of the scene, the conclusion and moral etc.

No matter how good your style of Writing is, you can't just write a fast-pace moment in a romance-scene to build up the tension because you lose your intention to build up the tension with the fast-pace writingstyle. It needs to be slow-paced, detailed, with a closed perspective to each person and each of their reactions.

You see where im going? Writing isn't subjectiv, it has it place and can provide the Plot well OR NOT. If your writing has some weaknesses you just can't say "well, its subjective anyways, so i dont need to improve". If your writing su*ks then it su*ks, and your just harm your Story with that.

Kishimoto sometimes provided really good writing, even short ones.
Pain after killing Hinata: "Out of Love, sacrifice is born... hate is born.. and we are able to know pain". 
Its not just a short quote with a big message, it summs up what most of the villains and antagonist went through in Naruto (Itachi, Pain, Tobi, Madara, Sasuke etc.) and the moment was just well placed after killing Hinata to initiate the upcoming 'real' fight between them to determine which 'Hate' of them is bigger, and we know how important 'Hate' takes place in the Narutoverse. Thats also btw my biggest highlight in the whole Story.

Of course there are other example where Kishi showed good experienced writing, but they dont stand a chance against all the mistakes and weaknesses he let through to harm his story.

Take a look at Sakura. Back in Part-1 you couldnt' stand or like her, because her Characterdesign was terrible. Can u blame the haters? Sakura was basically only a Ninja to follow Sasukes footsteps, not because she got other moral impulses to be a Ninja.

How can you allow that if u provide her Character with so much screenstime and importance in Naruto ? It only provoces a negative reaction from the Fanbase, and it happened ALOT. Kishimot harmed Sakura because of his bad Characterwriting and Design. 
Of course her Design went better after meeting Tsunade, where she suddenly got the drive to become a good kunoichi. Did Kishimoto made use of that? sadly No. She was trained by a 'Hokage', and couldn't support Naruto Characterwise with the experience she gained from a Hokage... because she was busy looking for Sasuke, the same goes for Naruto.
 

 

 

I never 'constantly' adressed that NS makes more sense than NH, it was just that one statemnt i made. 

"However if the Story were written in a more reasonable way and with way better 'writing' i think NS would make alot more sense than NH, not because i like them more as a couple"

From a writing-standpoint there were too many things which made no sense at all in the Story. Its not only the Sasuke-obsession from Naruto and Sakura. There are many things.

1. The Point of having Hinata in the Story makes little to no sense. Her Character solely relates to the Character of Naruto, and not around the Narutoverse. Most of the other Supportive-Characters atleast represent some unique Clans and abilities, but we already had Neji who represent the Hyuga-Clan pretty well on his own. You could maybe argue that Hinata provided the tension between the two Hyuga-houses by having a difficult/heated realtionship with Neji in Part-1. However since the Hyuga-Clan never really mattered after Part-1 i dont see the importance in that matter.

The Problem is that she isn't even supporting Naruto Characterwise, atleast Kishimoto made never use of it. I could understand the meaning of Hinata if she were the reason to let Naruto shift his attention towards Sasuke away, so Naruto can focus on the Person who looks after him instead of the Person who keeps the distance (develop his character atleast). That would atelast justifies her Character more, but sadly that kitten never happened. Even when Hinata stand infront of Pain to save Naruto, it didn't had any influences on the following Story neither on Naruto. It was just another moment to set-up a romantic end-game between them. Kishimoto stated that 'Romance' wasn't focused as a Genre in Naruto, then why does he create a Character who provides almost nothing Plotwise except to set-up a (end-game) romantic-relationship between them ? and of course to make up 5-10% of all flashbacks happend in the Story (we should never forget that)

2. How does Sasuke not die ? The main problem is that u can do whatever u want in the narutoverse, at the end everyone will forgive you. Orochimaru killed two Kage and many shinobis, and is allowed to walk free in the Narutoverse. Tobi killed the 4th Hokage, Narutos Mother, attacked konoha with the 9-tails, killed the uchiha-clan... and is considered as a 'friend' in the end of the last arc. ??? 
Sasuke is breaking bad, helps akatsuki, attacked the kage, and turns against Naruto in the final Battle.. not to mention all the attemps to kill his former teammates. Punishment and 'Consequnces' are lost words in the Narutoverse.

Its just a dragged out fairytale-verse where Kishimoto tried to force the way of - "dont answer hate with hate or consequences, but instead with 'love' and understanding to give them a chance to be better". Here is a thing, maybe Orochimaru and the other villains just did they evil-things because they knew they will get away with it no matter what. Sasuke should have died in my opinion, for the sake of the Story, to make it a Story with a good ending. The Ending would have made such a better impression if Sasuke would have died through out the hands of Naruto. Sasuke achieved everything, his part from a character-standpoint was done and finished.. it would have been the perfect moment for Kishimoto to build-up his death in the last Arc. 

3. The Protagonist is a little Kid. Naruto is a little Kid in the entire Show. No answers, always tries to debate with his antagonists, and doesnt have the balls to kill them. Naruto is just the insert-Character of Kishimoto to provide his Story with his fairy-tale nonsense. He doesnt grow, he doesnt develop. He stays the same from the beginning, just with a lot more Power at the end. 

...

i dont want to drag it out too much. What i want to say if the story had a better flow, a reasonable and logical flow.. NS would make more sense. Sadly Naruto had to be the sinking-ship titanic with plotholes, unused potential and sometimes unnecessary elements.. and all that compared with unexperienced Writing which just harmed the story more than it did good.

 

 

 

I hate the fact that kitten like Sasuke are just forgiven just because of one neutral deed. It's beyond stupid to forgive a traitor who joined another traitor to then join a terrorist organization full of traitors and then come back to destroy his own village. kitten should have had his balls cut and his eyes gouged out and tossed into the world for his crimes.

[Yyubie]

 

Behold SS greatness!

That's in the beach near ocean right ?

 

So is the date happen when Sakura pregnant and goes to search for sasuke ?? because Konoha is far from ocean ... and what are ino and sakura doing there ??

 

Edit : I like to add what the F they done to her ? she looks so ugly, SP bias ?

Edited by Yyubie, 30 July 2017 - 05:41 PM.

[Illnevergiveup3]

That's in the beach near ocean right ?
 
So is the date happen when Sakura pregnant and goes to search for sasuke ?? because Konoha is far from ocean ... and what are ino and sakura doing there ??

Sakura-Chan being pregnant is a hoax. Their date was a hoax, along with their relationship. Sasuke is a hoax.

[sushi.]

 

I mean, this is obviously not true. We can assume Sakura is not pregnant at this time, though.

[FutureHalfofFamer]

 

I already established how Kishimoto's interviews do NOT contradict eachother. A contradiction would be saying that NH was planned from the end, then in another, that it was planned from the beginning. To say in a second that he also says he considered Sakura does not contradict anything, simply because it does not invalidate that NH was planned from the beginning. A contradiction -must- be an invalidation, it cannot be a statement that does not match character per character. This is a failure of not understanding what a contradiction is. Fact, by the way, as we're discussing contradiction. Saying that he considered something, while having something planned, is not an opposed element.

 

On the first part, you're misunderstanding the point. The point is some arguments are stronger than others, while others are what we call baseless. A solid argument has a foundation built on fact, a weaker argument does not. Essentially, you cannot as readily counter a solid argument with just air, while pure speculation will fall as it has no legs.

 

So yes, because the Last shows that Naruto did not understand his love for Hinata, we can make inferences, which stand on fact, within the Manga that this is so. That they also end up together in 700, that we see text that Naruto feels the worst feelings ever at her supposed demise in 437, are all foundations for supporting a statement that the Proud Failure Speech was an important progressive moment in NH. Often people dismiss what comes after, but it is important? Certainly the Proud Failure Speech is no less supported than what comes before. They all fit seamlessly here, and certainly this speech by the way, separates the bonds alone.

 

If you're looking for actual romance to show that they're a couple, you won't find any in the manga. The manga has zero romance, except 699 with Sasuke poking Sakura's forehead. That's it, really. If you want to find that, look in the Last. Mind, saying this, I don't want to fall into the place of saying any bond is more "special", it's simply that the bond as it was developed makes sense for NH to be endgame, which is really the crux of the argument. Thus why my statements are not going over and discussing and comparing otherw bonds of friendship.

 

Right, Good writing is about a lot of things, going to skip to the next part here, but I will repeat "Good" is subjective, as for each aspect of it has a weight that differs between reader, and further, each writing rule can be broken to "Good" or even "Great" effect.

 

You mis-state NH here, it's not one-sided admiration, but dual admiration. Naruto was awed by Hinata in her battle by Neji, by her speech before his fight with Neji, that she jumped in to save him in the Pain Arc, that she really got him out of it. There is this grave deep emotion that rises when Hinata is about, and it is this intense emotion, coupled with this admiration, that infers Love, that is love as confirmed by the Last. You ask why not just friends, and it is the intense deep emotions that really are why they are not just friends.

 

. NH maybe has one actual comical moment (When they first meet after three years), but NH, particularly none of the moments I listed above, don't play to comedy.

 

Your argument on NS doesn't really say -why- it should be more. Just because you are friends does not imply getting together. That said, I love their friendship, but any suggestion of it being more was quelled before the end.

 

get banned. NS was the intended pairing.

[sushi.]

 

Because I'm the Dark Knight, clearly.

Take my advice. Several times people have come up with sarcastic and unserious remarks and you've responded like you're a lawyer in court.

[sushi.]

 

Okay? How so?

 

 

Sounded quite serious to me.

I wasn't sure about that post so I said several times;P

[Khaleesi]

 

I already established how Kishimoto's interviews do NOT contradict eachother. A contradiction would be saying that NH was planned from the end, then in another, that it was planned from the beginning. To say in a second that he also says he considered Sakura does not contradict anything, simply because it does not invalidate that NH was planned from the beginning. A contradiction -must- be an invalidation, it cannot be a statement that does not match character per character. This is a failure of not understanding what a contradiction is. Fact, by the way, as we're discussing contradiction. Saying that he considered something, while having something planned, is not an opposed element.

 

On the first part, you're misunderstanding the point. The point is some arguments are stronger than others, while others are what we call baseless. A solid argument has a foundation built on fact, a weaker argument does not. Essentially, you cannot as readily counter a solid argument with just air, while pure speculation will fall as it has no legs.

 

So yes, because the Last shows that Naruto did not understand his love for Hinata, we can make inferences, which stand on fact, within the Manga that this is so. That they also end up together in 700, that we see text that Naruto feels the worst feelings ever at her supposed demise in 437, are all foundations for supporting a statement that the Proud Failure Speech was an important progressive moment in NH. Often people dismiss what comes after, but it is important? Certainly the Proud Failure Speech is no less supported than what comes before. They all fit seamlessly here, and certainly this speech by the way, separates the bonds alone.

 

If you're looking for actual romance to show that they're a couple, you won't find any in the manga. The manga has zero romance, except 699 with Sasuke poking Sakura's forehead. That's it, really. If you want to find that, look in the Last. Mind, saying this, I don't want to fall into the place of saying any bond is more "special", it's simply that the bond as it was developed makes sense for NH to be endgame, which is really the crux of the argument. Thus why my statements are not going over and discussing and comparing otherw bonds of friendship.

 

Right, Good writing is about a lot of things, going to skip to the next part here, but I will repeat "Good" is subjective, as for each aspect of it has a weight that differs between reader, and further, each writing rule can be broken to "Good" or even "Great" effect.

 

You mis-state NH here, it's not one-sided admiration, but dual admiration. Naruto was awed by Hinata in her battle by Neji, by her speech before his fight with Neji, that she jumped in to save him in the Pain Arc, that she really got him out of it. There is this grave deep emotion that rises when Hinata is about, and it is this intense emotion, coupled with this admiration, that infers Love, that is love as confirmed by the Last. You ask why not just friends, and it is the intense deep emotions that really are why they are not just friends.

 

. NH maybe has one actual comical moment (When they first meet after three years), but NH, particularly none of the moments I listed above, don't play to comedy.

 

Your argument on NS doesn't really say -why- it should be more. Just because you are friends does not imply getting together. That said, I love their friendship, but any suggestion of it being more was quelled before the end.

 

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHHAHAHAHA After reading this, this might be my last message regarding this topic. Before answering to your text I have some other things so say: You declare you like logical reasoning but you fail SO much at it! The only thing you do is using pretty words and de-construction of ideas and definitions to support yourself when it reality you don't make sense It really is laughable. Either is that or you really, really don't understand what RiverKid or I have written, which I think it makes it excusable.

 

Nevertheless, I lean towards the former. Your subtle way of avoiding the central idea of a subject is either on purpose or an amateur failure. It may confuse others, but it makes me laugh. This is why I understand why other people don't want to waste their time discussing with you. 

 

I mean, I first listened to you. My POV was that NS made sense story-wise. You said NH made sense story wise. So I said, okay, let's listen to this, I'm ready to admit I was wrong if I was proven it was it, that's why I didn't even mentioned my opinion until later, but have done anything but prove it, just taking anything related to NH and highlighting it. 

 

From the moment I started discussing with you, you were not open-minded, nor ready to admit yourself wrong (and reformulate your argument) if the time would come. Which was already a warning for me. So, again, at least try to question yourself on why so many people get angry or annoyed at you. Of course, I do admit there are very emotional people here (as there would be anywhere), and that, well, this is a NS forum after all, there will be people that like NS over everything and won't listen to any reason that will contradict them, but besides them there are other users who also get annoyed at you after reading your argumentation and actually analyzing it.

 

Aaaanyway. Let us begin.

 

>"I already established how Kishimoto's interviews do NOT contradict eachother. A contradiction would be saying that NH was planned from the end, then in another, that it was planned from the beginning. To say in a second that he also says he considered Sakura does not contradict anything, simply because it does not invalidate that NH was planned from the beginning. A contradiction -must- be an invalidation, it cannot be a statement that does not match character per character. This is a failure of not understanding what a contradiction is. Fact, by the way, as we're discussing contradiction. Saying that he considered something, while having something planned, is not an opposed element."

 

All of this. No. Please. Stop. They DO contradict each other. And, yes, for the same reasons you wrote there. Opposed element, right? So he says the following:

 

- I was all about Naruto and Hinata getting married from the beggining.

- From the middle, actually.

- (after the movie) Well, quite some time ago.

 

 The three of them placed on a line of ten, could be represented like this:

 

|---1---2---3---4---5---6---7---8---9---10

 

^ Beggining.

                           ^ The middle.

                                                ^ Quite some time ago (aprox).

 

Tell me now, how are these not contradicting? 

 

***On a non-related note what he says about Sakura waving hearts between Naruto and Sasuke and how "changing hearts" would make her a very, very terrible woman, it's important to notice that's one reason why he decided the pairings to be the way they are, adding to the fact he also stated that he would pitty Hinata for not rewarding her after always watching over Naruto, even if Sakura did the same from the middle.***

 

>"On the first part, you're misunderstanding the point. The point is some arguments are stronger than others, while others are what we call baseless. A solid argument has a foundation built on fact, a weaker argument does not. Essentially, you cannot as readily counter a solid argument with just air, while pure speculation will fall as it has no legs."

 

I am not misunderstanding anything, sorry. I know what the point was and all the following you wrote. So, now, my point, was this: 

 

You wrote

 

      - "The Manga Says Something (Fact), I speculate something based on this fact."

      - "A Reader Infers something (Opinion), they speculate based on that opinion, as if it was fact"

                    

                       Right?
                        You are trying to say which are the differences and what it makes an opinion to have more value (base) to be part of an argumentation. So you tried to separate it on                                          3 ways of constructing it. Facts are the Manga and what Kishimoto says, those are our sources. Just as any other person, you are a reader so you also infer from what it is                                 shown. 

 

                                              

                                   

                         What do we see here? Naruto rapping. That's a fact. He's sweating. That's a fact. Bee without words. That's a fact. Now, following your example. Let's speculate                                                  based on this fact: Naruto is nervous about rapping and Bee isn't surprised.  He has probably never rap before, based on his awkwardness and Bee thinks is bad rapping.

                         Speculating based on what it is shown it's the same as infering. We don't know if Naruto hasn't tried to rap before, maybe he is just very bad at it. So we really can't                                              prove this, that's why it's an opinion. Both of them, havn't rap before and being bad at it, are reasonable inferences. The problem comes when you take your inference as truth,                            thus saying "I'm pretty sure Naruto hasn't rap before!!!" or "No, Naruto is only very bad at it, I'm sure he has tried it at least once."

                         

                         So those 2 examples on constructing a valid opinion for argumentation it's in reality only one:

                         The Manga says something (Fact), I speculate, so I infer (Opinion), then 1. or I treat it as what it is (an opinion) or as truth (as it was a fact)

                         

                         You treat your inferences as if they were correct, when in reality they are only speculations, yet you try to differentiate it from what whatever other people say,

 

>"So yes, because the Last shows that Naruto did not understand his love for Hinata, we can make inferences, which stand on fact, within the Manga that this is so. That they also end up together in 700, that we see text that Naruto feels the worst feelings ever at her supposed demise in 437, are all foundations for supporting a statement that the Proud Failure Speech was an important progressive moment in NH. Often people dismiss what comes after, but it is important? Certainly the Proud Failure Speech is no less supported than what comes before. They all fit seamlessly here, and certainly this speech by the way, separates the bonds alone."

 

This is over-reading. The Manga and the Movie are different things, in first place. Why? Principally because the Manga was thought and made by Kishimoto, while the Movie was thought and made by Pierrot (just another readers with their very own interpretations) with only Kishimoto's assistance. And this that the movie was already being made when the last manga chapters where being written so the plot of the movie has to affect the latest manga chaps.

 

" In my head, I had decided Naruto and Hinata to get together a bit after they became young adults. But I couldn’t think of an actual love story for the two and was not planning on drawing it. However, I wanted to circle back to the first chapter (of the series) by making Naruto have a son who graffities on the (now) Hokage Naruto’s rock face. So the idea of a [NH] love story wasn’t my idea at the start, however Pierrot staff suggested the movie to revolve around it (hence the final product being the way it is)."

 

If your theory is that Kishimoto tried to develop love not understood by Naruto for Hinata on the manga and he supported this on the movie, this is right up denied by the fact he didn't thought of the story for them both in the movie. He was too "embarrassed" by his own words on another interview to do any romance on the manga or later, so he let Pierrot do it for him.

 

What he says is this: "I wanted them both to come together in the future, but there wasn't any romantic about them in the manga, since they would only fall in love after they are above 18."

 

The Proud Failure Speech is an important moment for Hinata. And the "worst he has ever felt" you are taking it as it came only for Hinata, deleting all the mess that was his life at that moment. I mean, you think his whole village being blown up has nothing to do with the intense reaction from Naruto? Psychologycally doesn't make sense. He was under too much stress. Not to mention chapters before he was having problems not to giving himself up to distress and Kurama. This was just the natural outcome. He reacted badly also when Sakura was in danger and gave himself to Kurama, thought she was able to calm him down. After that, his seal was breaking more and more while the plot progressed, so, again, it was only the logical outcome. He was yet to control his emotions.

 

If you really want to prove how NH makes sense, you need to take only under consideration all the chapters that weren't being published while the movie was being written and directed, insomuch as the Movie (Pierrot invention) influenced Kishimoto's writting. As RiverKid said, the movie was made to justify their love, and the chapters under this influence are a by-product.

 

The theory that Naruto has loved Hinata before the war even is baseless and contradicting to Kishimoto's statements.

 

>"If you're looking for actual romance to show that they're a couple, you won't find any in the manga. The manga has zero romance, except 699 with Sasuke poking Sakura's forehead. That's it, really. If you want to find that, look in the Last. Mind, saying this, I don't want to fall into the place of saying any bond is more "special", it's simply that the bond as it was developed makes sense for NH to be endgame, which is really the crux of the argument. Thus why my statements are not going over and discussing and comparing otherw bonds of friendship."

 

Again, the Movie is an explanation on how they fall in love. IN THE MOVIE. So it has anything to do with the manga. Literally they had to developt their romance precisely in the future for that reason. 

And about what it's highlighted I've said I've read your follow up "progression" of their bond. And still doesn't make sense, you were just describing what it happened and gave it more meaning, that doesn't prove a thing. It is important to compare other people's interactions to determinate which one makes more sense, so I don't know what you are talking about. While writting, just as in real life, love is constructed by shared experiences, similarities, mutual empathy, sexual appeal and mutual support. That's why from a writter point of view, the bonds as they were developt that made sense if they ended up together are 4: Narusaku, sasusaku, narusasu and sasukarin. So it doesn't matter if Kishimoto constructed their bond from a red-herring purpose (both NS and SK), what he did made the ships make sense. But to be honest, Sasuke should have died.

 

>"Right, Good writing is about a lot of things, going to skip to the next part here, but I will repeat "Good" is subjective, as for each aspect of it has a weight that differs between reader, and further, each writing rule can be broken to "Good" or even "Great" effect."

 

I think Riverkid has answered to this very well so if you don't get what he said, it's most likely that you are doing it on purpose. There are subjective matters on writting, whether you like it or not is not the same as saying something is well done. 

 

>"You mis-state NH here, it's not one-sided admiration, but dual admiration. Naruto was awed by Hinata in her battle by Neji, by her speech before his fight with Neji, that she jumped in to save him in the Pain Arc, that she really got him out of it. There is this grave deep emotion that rises when Hinata is about, and it is this intense emotion, coupled with this admiration, that infers Love, that is love as confirmed by the Last. You ask why not just friends, and it is the intense deep emotions that really are why they are not just friends."

 

I thought you might have problems with that specific thing, but I thought about it. Hinata admires Naruto and Naruto, on the situations you listed, was surprised about her will, is as much the situational admiration you can register Naruto having for way more characters. Like when he sees and blushes while Sakura is saving Gaara's brother, thought, the latter being implied romantic.

 

>"NH maybe has one actual comical moment (When they first meet after three years), but NH, particularly none of the moments I listed above, don't play to comedy."

 

Agree. Why is this, thought? This moment was implied romantic. The rest it isn't. When romance is involved it all ends up in comic relief, why? Kishimoto said he was too embarrassed on doing it. There has to be a punch line at the end. Even tho it was a comical situation, it has real impact on the characters since this is what happens in their world as we are just readers, thus incluencing on how things should play out in the future taking in consideration all that has happened between characters in Narutoverse. It's psychological supported this way.

 

>"Your argument on NS doesn't really say -why- it should be more. Just because you are friends does not imply getting together." 

 

I did not stated an argument, I asked, which makes more sense from the progression of their bonds, which NS does. Surely, friendship doesn't mean future love, at all. But, again, from a writter point of view I rather pair up a couple that has lived throught hell and developt friendship over battle and suffering over the years and have a mutual goal than someone who liked the other character but doesn't really know him deeply or for what he's going through, it's a bad match and if I was on a relationship like that I would be unhappy as hell.

 

>"That said, I love their friendship, but any suggestion of it being more was quelled before the end."

 

Again, aren't we discussing what makes sense? Then why, again, you bring up what it was made (the ending and chapters under the movie influence) instead. We are not talking of what it was suggested (by Kishimoto, thus intention), we are talking about their bond progression to make it understandable to get together (by what happens in their own world -of the characters, thus the product). Intention doesn't determinate a product.

 

Example #1: I ate a banana I found on the table.  

 

- Intention: Eat a banana.

- Reason: I'm hungry.

- Product: My mother gets angry because I ate the banana she was saving.

 

Example #2: I buy tickets for a concert to go with my best friend.

 

- Intention: Birthday present.

- Reason: I appreaciate our friendship.

- Product: My friend gets sad because I bought the tickets to the wrong concert.

 

Example #3: Kishimoto writes with (said) intention on NH being the end-game.

 

- Intention: Developing a bond between them to justify/support their love.

- Reason: Decided that way from the beggining/middle/quite some time ago, whichever is the truth and because Hinata has always looked over Naruto.

- Product: Writes and develops more NS and makes comparisons in purpose to the MinaKushi ship and Kushina in specific to mislead, giving enough base and weight for this couple                  to be a reasonable end-game.

 

Now, as I've said before writing most of this, I've realized that I might not answer you on this from now on. Mostly because I think you don't make sense and I've said what I had to say. So it's up to you to take into consideration anything of what I've said, instead of taking one word of an argumentation and taking it out of context or relying your argument on a definition instead of logical reasoning.

 

I'm out.

Edited by Khaleesi, 30 July 2017 - 11:42 PM.

[Khaleesi]

kitten again it was send before I could finish I'm not even at the middle 

[gamma]

damn that panel gave me some weird nostalgia

[Yyubie]

kitten again it was send before I could finish I'm not even at the middle 

Why don't edit your post to fix it ?

[Khaleesi]

Why don't edit your post to fix it ?

I am doing it right now (: I'm saving every 2 sentences.

[Yyubie]

The ending doesn't make sense , naturally the one who likes it doesn't make sense either.

[T XD]

I am doing it right now (: I'm saving every 2 sentences.

Take a break. I think you've been writing this post for more than half an hour XD