54213 replies to this topic

[Khaleesi]

 

But half the ideas you point out aren't ideas. It's you really, really over-reading that there is an idea here.

 

**** It is when the author introduces ideas with no intent on following through with them. This manga does that . . . A LOT.

Overthinking is entirely a reader's fault, and of no blame of an authors.

 

**** If what Analyzer said about Kishimoto saying NH was thought from the beginning it's true then NS was a big red-herring. Tho, recognising it as red-herring is also admiting how deceiving NS has been and completely understandable for any person to thought about it becoming canon.

 

All of this you said people do, you also do. I'll show you highlighting words in your latest post:

 

 

Number 2: Whether or not he planned them from the beginning really is solely provably by his own words (Which he says). You can then use the material to discuss at what point this occured, be it at their introduction, the end of part one, the middle, etc. I do believe he meant for these to be together at their introductions, but he was sold on keeping it they way he intended at the middle. Someone discussed how Kishimoto keeps himself flexible, allowing multiple options (I.E., NS), but when he was toying with NS, which a lot of us feel was the beginning of part 2, for him it didn't work, thus this revert to what he was doing originally, as such, the Pain Arc, and really the Itachi Pursuit Arc, as it is. Of course, without him confirming, its at best an educated guess, so its free to debate the exact points of the beginning and middle that this thinking of his occurred.

 

It's note worthing that the run towards of Sakura and Karin (Notably Gaara brought Naruto to Sakura), that they are both healers of their respective teams, Sasuke's new Team, and the New Team 7.If these two cannot heal them, then things are bad. I don't really see this as a Red Herring shipping moment myself, but it might have been colored that way to mislead as well. Shikmaru and Neji were obviously not meant as romantic interests, their moments were never colored that way. I'm not sure about this making sacrifices to get noticed, as her point of making sacrifices is about love, not acknowledgement.

 

The next part is speculation, do we state this is when the Author planned it to be that way (Chuunin Exams, speculated), or when they were decided on it (Thus the Pain Arc, speculated). The Proud Failure Speech is certainly a heart-booster that changes how Naruto thinks about her, and is certainly the root of an argument that Naruto did love her, but did not understand it sort of moment. The Pain Arc is another, where Hinata futilely goes to save him, out of love, and because of that failure, Naruto feels the worst he's ever had, and just gives in to Kurama, he doesn't care anymore. Either one of these could be it, but really, its speculation, as in the answer to the question really, is when the Author decides it in his mind.

 

I'll never state a bond is over another's, or that they are heavier than another's. The Entire Team 7 execution is flawed, perhaps because it was Editor and time constraint pressure when Kishimoto was first starting, and it never really gets much build up to show how Naruto and Sasuke were these great friends exactly beyond it being informed usually. Notably the Naruto Sakura part of this triangle suffers the least (But it still suffers from being informed, mind), in part because they are often working together. You can certainly speculate part two's beginning as it is was Kishimoto  considering it, however.

 

SS makes sense because it was informed, and it was shown that was it was going to, in mostly in informed fashion. No other Sasuke X or Sakura X pairing has a foundation, really. We can discuss how it's not really well executed (Certainly up for debate!). NH was more displayed, a play to its narrative strength. It definitely makes sense.

 

His interviews really aren't contradictory, as they are saying the same thing. I think we can sum up the gist of them pretty simply:

 

I planned NH and SS from the beginning, but was opening to exploring other options, thought about NS for a little while, but decided on what I was doing in the middle. I did play with some Red Herring of Sakura with Naruto (Thus the chapters after the middle), but it was always about Naruto and Hanta getting together in the end.

 

There isn't any contradiction to this narrative. It would rely on something above not being true in a second statement.

 

I believe Relevant interviews are the 2014, 2017, and post Gaiden Interview where he talks about SS being planned at the start.

 

" I do believe he meant for these to be together at their introductions, but he was sold on keeping it they way he intended at the middle."

Speculated. And since this is a speculation, your theory has as much value as anyone here saying it wasn't. Thus, not really giving you a reason to try and contradict or "correct" someone that states it.

 

"without him confirming, its at best an educated guess, so its free to debate the exact points of the beginning and middle that this thinking of his occurred."

Speculated, as how you admited. Thought, it confuses me how, if you have already admited it to be just a guess, you would try to debate on it as a truth. Of course, and again, as some mods have said not so long ago, this is a site where anyone can speak their mind, but I see not point on debating further this point with anyone that doesn't really agree with you, since there will not be a productive outcome, which I clasify as a waste of time, for both, you and the second person involved. 

 

At much, you can say, "my belief is that NH was meant to be from the very begining and hold their ground in the middle. Thought, I cannot stablish this as a fact.", of course, I'm only suggesting this sentence because I've seen you expect (or would prefer) people to be precise, logical and factual. This is the only sentence that could fit that description. I mean, the same would be to the ones that defend NS as a thought end-game. Yet, I do not expect them in general, mainly because I do not know them personally, to express themselves this way. However, I do expect this from you, since this seems to be the way you live. It is fair, isn't it?

 

"Shikmaru and Neji were obviously not meant as romantic interests, their moments were never colored that way."

Nor did NH. Even if it was Kishimoto's intention, please elaborate on the exact difference and follow up to Neji's, Shikamaru's and Hinata's bond to Naruto and contrast it with NS.

 

When I say if a ship makes sense narrative-wise I'm refering to two things, principally. I'm hoping this would help you re-make your argument.

 

1. Follow up on the story itself. 

2. Good writing. 

 

On the first point, I still have to wait for you to make the comparison I asked. 

 

On the second point, for much an autor wanted to disclose a thing in certain way, it won't mean, at all, that A. was made correctly; B. makes sense. I have a bit of experience on this since I'm a writer (at least on my native language, heh), training movie director, guionist and actress. And, from my experience I see plot holes, poor execution and non-sense over all. I mean, I know Kishimoto is just a mangaka and, we all can agree, not the best story-teller, but that will have nothing to do with how, again, even if he wanted NH all along, this makes sense on the way he has constructed the story.

 

Certainly, good writing, literature and arts in general are full of subjectivities, which we can probably argue forever, but, as everything, it has its rules, this is less troublesome to discuss. Also, literaly resources are not always 1. used the correct way. 2. good at all. which Naruto has used (both). Example. Red-herring. 

 

So now I'm also waiting for you to make your arguments over how NH comes off as expected also in this sense.

 

"and is certainly the root of an argument that Naruto did love her, but did not understand it sort of moment."

Speculated. Seems like over-reading to me and there are no proofs to support this.

 

"But there isn't any serious development towards them being romantic-"

You say there isn't any serious development, so may I ask, which where the no-so-serious or non-serious development for them? Or there wasn't any of them either? If so, thats a weird chose of wording you got there.

 

And I must insist,again, to contrast NH and NS bond, not over the autor's decision, but story-wise.

 

"NH was more displayed, a play to its narrative strength. It definitely makes sense."

Here I finally write down my opinion, which I haven't until now. NH does not make sense to me. SS, as I've said before, it does. Poorly made, but actually makes sense if Sakura wouldn't end up with Naruto.

---------------------

 

As for the Interviews, if you had a copy of all of them it would make this much easier, because from what I remember he first said one thing, and in another interview tried to fix it saying another thing that half-denied the first affirmation. We could go through them 1 word at a time.

[Shashank95]

 

 

**** If what Analyzer said about Kishimoto saying NH was thought from the beginning it's true then NS was a big red-herring. Tho, recognising it as red-herring is also admiting how deceiving NS has been and completely understandable for any person to thought about it becoming canon.

 

All of this you said people do, you also do. I'll show you highlighting words in your latest post:

 

 

" I do believe he meant for these to be together at their introductions, but he was sold on keeping it they way he intended at the middle."

Speculated. And since this is a speculation, your theory has as much value as anyone here saying it wasn't. Thus, not really giving you a reason to try and contradict or "correct" someone that states it.

 

"without him confirming, its at best an educated guess, so its free to debate the exact points of the beginning and middle that this thinking of his occurred."

Speculated, as how you admited. Thought, it confuses me how, if you have already admited it to be just a guess, you would try to debate on it as a truth. Of course, and again, as some mods have said not so long ago, this is a site where anyone can speak their mind, but I see not point on debating further this point with anyone that doesn't really agree with you, since there will not be a productive outcome, which I clasify as a waste of time, for both, you and the second person involved. 

 

At much, you can say, "my belief is that NH was meant to be from the very begining and hold their ground in the middle. Thought, I cannot stablish this as a fact.", of course, I'm only suggesting this sentence because I've seen you expect (or would prefer) people to be precise, logical and factual. This is the only sentence that could fit that description. I mean, the same would be to the ones that defend NS as a thought end-game. Yet, I do not expect them in general, mainly because I do not know them personally, to express themselves this way. However, I do expect this from you, since this seems to be the way you live. It is fair, isn't it?

 

"Shikmaru and Neji were obviously not meant as romantic interests, their moments were never colored that way."

Nor did NH. Even if it was Kishimoto's intention, please elaborate on the exact difference and follow up to Neji's, Shikamaru's and Hinata's bond to Naruto and contrast it with NS.

 

When I say if a ship makes sense narrative-wise I'm refering to two things, principally. I'm hoping this would help you re-make your argument.

 

1. Follow up on the story itself. 

2. Good writing. 

 

On the first point, I still have to wait for you to make the comparison I asked. 

 

On the second point, for much an autor wanted to disclose a thing in certain way, it won't mean, at all, that A. was made correctly; B. makes sense. I have a bit of experience on this since I'm a writer (at least on my native language, heh), training movie director, guionist and actress. And, from my experience I see plot holes, poor execution and non-sense over all. I mean, I know Kishimoto is just a mangaka and, we all can agree, not the best story-teller, but that will have nothing to do with how, again, even if he wanted NH all along, this makes sense on the way he has constructed the story.

 

Certainly, good writing, literature and arts in general are full of subjectivities, which we can probably argue forever, but, as everything, it has its rules, this is less troublesome to discuss. Also, literaly resources are not always 1. used the correct way. 2. good at all. which Naruto has used (both). Example. Red-herring. 

 

So now I'm also waiting for you to make your arguments over how NH comes off as expected also in this sense.

 

"and is certainly the root of an argument that Naruto did love her, but did not understand it sort of moment."

Speculated. Seems like over-reading to me and there are no proofs to support this.

 

"But there isn't any serious development towards them being romantic-"

You say there isn't any serious development, so may I ask, which where the no-so-serious or non-serious development for them? Or there wasn't any of them either? If so, thats a weird chose of wording you got there.

 

And I must insist,again, to contrast NH and NS bond, not over the autor's decision, but story-wise.

 

"NH was more displayed, a play to its narrative strength. It definitely makes sense."

Here I finally write down my opinion, which I haven't until now. NH does not make sense to me. SS, as I've said before, it does. Poorly made, but actually makes sense if Sakura wouldn't end up with Naruto.

---------------------

 

As for the Interviews, if you had a copy of all of them it would make this much easier, because from what I remember he first said one thing, and in another interview tried to fix it saying another thing that half-denied the first affirmation. We could go through them 1 word at a time.

 

 

Like I said, debating with this person is kittening pointless cause she is a hypocrite. She runs her mouth insulting our  arguments calling it speculation, misreadings, ignorance of the actual events and yada yada yada and when we ask her for scans to back up her "logical" claims, all she does is fire back with her own personal opinion which to me and probably to most people here right now is worth as much as a steaming pile of horse kitten.

[ThroughWithLove]

Off-Topic: Have any NS fans given the Rise of the Rokudaime Hokage a read?

Have read the first two chapters thus far. The only problems I have thus far is the way Naruto becoming Hokage was executed (we would need a little more than him simply throwing his hat in the ring to become Hokage, like maybe talking with Kakashi and company in advance and having them expose Danzo for the villain he is as well as assurance that Naruto would have help training for the job so to speak), Naruto's dialogue sounds way too mature for that point in the story. For example, in chapter 2, Naruto says "I was alone for most of my life and I was ostracized due to what was inside of me." and "Do not worry about the past grievances . . ."Ostracized and grievances are way beyond Naruto's vocabulary and I'm fairly certain he'd never use those words in a sentence without at least questioning what they mean. Also, he's just not reacting the way he would to becoming Hokage all of the sudden. He's way too relaxed about having just fulfilled his lifelong dream. The path to leadership is a long and steady road and Naruto is acting way too professional for a job he just received on the spur of the moment. I half-expected Kakashi to speak on his behalf while Naruto is still taking it all in. Other than that, it's a solid fic. Stuff like what I mentioned can easily be addressed with a few days of editing.

Edited by ThroughWithLove, 29 July 2017 - 05:00 PM.

[Khaleesi]

 

Like I said, debating with this person is kittening pointless cause she is a hypocrite. She runs her mouth insulting our  arguments calling it speculation, misreadings, ignorance of the actual events and yada yada yada and when we ask her for scans to back up her "logical" claims, all she does is fire back with her own personal opinion which to me and probably to most people here right now is worth as much as a steaming pile of horse kitten.

Since this is the first time I've asked her for proofs, I yet have nothing so said about it.

[ThroughWithLove]

@ Khaleesi, on 29 Jul 2017 - 10:49 AM, said:

As for the Interviews, if you had a copy of all of them it would make this much easier, because from what I remember he first said one thing, and in another interview tried to fix it saying another thing that half-denied the first affirmation. We could go through them 1 word at a time

 

 

 

2014 Interview:

 

 

"I decided quite a while ago to go with Hinata.

 

There was a time when I was on the fence about going with Sakura, but after coming this far and just having Sakura switch over to loving Naruto would make her kind of a terrible woman.

 

Anyway, Sakura really has always just been wholeheartedly about Sasuke.”

 

 

 

2014 Interview regarding the Last Movie:

 

 

Interviewer: So the final story in chapter 700 describes (what happened) about 10 years later, after the end of the Great Shinobi World War, Hinata was always continuously gathering (/sending) her thoughts to Naruto (and then) was bound to him by marriage. Naruto at first (/in the beginning), was holding love for Sakura, (but) she seems to be bound (/linked) to Sasuke. Kishimoto, while expressing a mischievous smile, reveals “insider information”.

 

Kishimoto: I decided from a fairly early stage that Naruto and Hinata (would be) together. For this reason (/therefore), Naruto and Sakura were close (together) like that in order to make it mislead(ing). Daringly, (I had) Sakura and Naruto’s mother, Kushina’s development (/activity) repeated (/piled up) like that being described (/drawn) in scenes.

 

 

 

 

2016 Interview

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by ThroughWithLove, 29 July 2017 - 05:23 PM.

[Khaleesi]

@ Khaleesi, on 29 Jul 2017 - 10:49 AM, said:

 

 

 

2014 Interview:

 

 

 

2014 Interview regarding the Last Movie:

 

 

 

 

 

2016 Interview

 

 

 

 

 

Do you have ALL his interviews? I am surprised you got some of them very fast xD If you have a link for all the interviews he has ever had, that would be amazing, because I'm looking for the one that he stated the time exactly from the middle? I believe he decided completely about NH.

[ThroughWithLove]

Do you have ALL his interviews? I am surprised you got some of them very fast xD If you have a link for all the interviews he has ever had, that would be amazing, because I'm looking for the one that he stated the time exactly from the middle? I believe he decided completely about NH.

 

Yep!  http://www.animenews...omic-con/.94186

 

 

2015 Interview

 

 

Did you decide this early on, that Hinata and Naruto would get together in the end, or when…?

 

From the middle, actually.

 

From the middle of the story? Hm! What sealed this decision for you?

 

I think what made me realize it was partly because, if you really look back and think about it, Hinata always supported and acknowledged Naruto, even before Master Iruka. She had the ability to see beyond his reputation and see the true person inside. I think I started realizing that they were meant to be.

 

 

 

And just for fun, here are a bunch of other interviews! http://www.naruto-bo...sashi-kishimoto

 

Hope that helped! 

 

PS: Analyzer-kun, refill your MP quick and activate semanticaga before it's too late!

Edited by ThroughWithLove, 29 July 2017 - 06:12 PM.

[Khaleesi]

I found this one too.

 

 

Q: I was surprised that the movie this time painted Naruto and Hinata’s love story.

•  In my head, I had decided Naruto and Hinata to get together a bit after they became young adults.

• But I couldn’t think of an actual love story for the two and was not planning on drawing it.

• However, I wanted to circle back to the first chapter (of the series) by making Naruto have a son who graffities on the (now) Hokage Naruto’s rock face.

• So the idea of a [NH] love story wasn’t my idea at the start, however Pierrot staff suggested the movie to revolve around it (hence the final product being the way it is).

• The reason why the movie is set 2 years after the main story is because I wanted [T/N: more like fussed over] the two being in a romance only if they were above 18 (laughs)

Q: Why did you decide to make Naruto end up with Hinata?

• Because Hinata’s the sole person who clearly watched and supported Naruto’s diligence from the beginning. 

• Even though things don’t go well, he continues to work hard and not give up – she understands that this is what makes him cool

• Sakura also notices this aspect to Naruto midway too, but I felt it pitiful if I don’t reward Hinata who watched him from the start (laughs ).

 

[ThroughWithLove]

I found this one too.

 

 

Q: I was surprised that the movie this time painted Naruto and Hinata’s love story.

•  In my head, I had decided Naruto and Hinata to get together a bit after they became young adults.

• But I couldn’t think of an actual love story for the two and was not planning on drawing it.

• However, I wanted to circle back to the first chapter (of the series) by making Naruto have a son who graffities on the (now) Hokage Naruto’s rock face.

• So the idea of a [NH] love story wasn’t my idea at the start, however Pierrot staff suggested the movie to revolve around it (hence the final product being the way it is).

• The reason why the movie is set 2 years after the main story is because I wanted [T/N: more like fussed over] the two being in a romance only if they were above 18 (laughs)

Q: Why did you decide to make Naruto end up with Hinata?

• Because Hinata’s the sole person who clearly watched and supported Naruto’s diligence from the beginning. 

• Even though things don’t go well, he continues to work hard and not give up – she understands that this is what makes him cool

• Sakura also notices this aspect to Naruto midway too, but I felt it pitiful if I don’t reward Hinata who watched him from the start (laughs ).

 

 

Good find! 
 

Now combine that with all the other interviews and it's pretty clear this man has been lying his @ss off about this issue for quite a while now.

Edited by ThroughWithLove, 29 July 2017 - 06:22 PM.

[Khaleesi]

 

Good find! 
 

Now combine that with all the other interviews and it's pretty clear this man has been lying his @ss about this issue for quite a while now.

Indeed. Not to forget this one.

 

 

Interviewer::最終話では、ヒナタとの間に2人の子供がいることが示唆されましたが、ヒナタとナルトが結婚する未来はいつ頃固まったのでしょうか。

Interviewer:: Saishu hanashi de ha, hinata tono ma ni 2 hito no kodomo ga iru koto ga shisasaremakittena ga, hinata to naruto ga kekkon suru mirai ha itsugoro katamatta no deshou ka?

Kishimoto::かなり前からヒナタで決めていました。サクラにしようかと迷った時期もあったのですが、ここへ来てサクラがナルトに心変わりしたら、さすがにサクラはひどい女過ぎでしょう（笑う）。　それに、実際サクラはなんだかんだでサスケに対して一途なんだと思います

Kishimoto::  KANARI mae kara hinata de kimeteimakittena.  sakura ni shiyouka to MAYOTTA jiki mo atta no desuga, koko he kite sakura ga naruto ni kokoro kawarikittenara, sasuga ni sakura ha hidoi
 sugi deshou(laugh). SORE NI, JISSAI SAKURA ha NANDAKANDA de sasuke ni taikittene ichizu NANDA to OMOIMASU.

You had the NaruHina person translated it as such….

“I decided quite a while ago to go with Hinata.
There was a time when I was on the fence about going with Sakura, but after coming this far and just having Sakura switch over to loving Naruto would make her kind of a terrible woman.
Anyway, Sakura really has always just been wholeheartedly about Sasuke.”

Right?

I translate it as such.  You have to really take it in context.

Interviewer::  In the last story, there is a part where small kid  hinata and naruto being suggested(or hinted out in a trailer).  May I know WHEN WAS IT THAT YOU FIRM, FIRM MAKE the decision that hinata marry naruto in the future?

Kishimoto:: Well, QUITE SOME TIME AGO, I have decided (Naruto to marry) with Hinata.  Even though, Sakura had HER MOMENTS OF WAVERING(confused, hearts divided), (not Kishimoto were thinking twice about it, whether to put Hinata or Sakura as Naruto’s wife), for Sakura to come to that part (of marrying Naruto), she would have to change her heart and that would make her a VERY, VERY cruel woman, no?  Besides/moreover, THE PRACTICAL SAKURA has been always CONSIDERATE (been thinking, if you must) to Sasuke, IN ONE WAY OR ANOTHER.

Now….do I think my translation is correct?

a) KANARI:: which means / CONSIDERABLY / FAIRLY / QUITE . 
http://jisho.org/wor...edict&romaji=on

Kishimoto NEVER SAID that he had considered FOR A VERY LONG TIME AGO.

b) MAYOTTA is the past tense for Mayou, 迷う, and Mayou means, 'TO HAVE TWO HEARTS, TO BE DIVIDED’
http://jisho.org/wor...edict&romaji=on

So yes, KISHIMOTO ADMITTED THAT THERE WERE TIMES HE DID MAKE SAKURA THINK TWICE IN HER RELATIONSHIP WITH NARUTO AND SASUKE.

My opinion,…..Kishimoto said, 'To Come To This Stage’, Kishimoto was referring to ’To come to the stage of Sakura marrying Naruto, like how the question was referring to Hinata marrying Naruto’, Kishimoto think that Sakura would be a very cruel woman if she decided to change her heart and go after Naruto.  Kishimoto was referring not to Sakura giving a chance to herself and Naruto as being a very cruel woman, Kishimoto was referring the fact that if Sakura were to decide to change her hearts towards Naruto, Sakura would be very cruel to Hinata and to some extend Naruto.  That’s why Kishimoto said Sakura must get Sasuke.

Sore ni, means 'MoreOver, Besides’.

JISSAI SAKURA…..jissai refers to 'practical, come to reality’.  So, with JISSAI Sakura, it means Sakura is a practical girl.
http://jisho.org/wor...eng=&dict=edict

…..Has Always Been Thinking Of Sasuke.

Now, there is no words of 'love Sasuke’ in Sakura’s term.  Kishimoto used the term 'to omoimasu’ which means 'to think’, but given in context NANDAKANDA and NANDA TO OMOIMASU, it appears to me that what Kishimoto was saying, that the 'Practical Sakura has always been in 'ONE WAY OR ANOTHER’ give consideration to Sasuke’s plight.
http://jisho.org/wor...eng=&dict=edict

http://dictionary.go.../m0u/???/

[Khaleesi]

 

PS: Analyzer-kun, refill your MP quick and activate semanticaga before it's too late!

What does this means? 

[ThroughWithLove]

Think I'll make a thread compiling these interviews together when I get the chance in the hopes that one of the mods stickies it to the top. Would be great if we didn't have to keep digging them all up every time someone disputes this subject.

[Khaleesi]

 

Think I'll make a thread compiling these interviews together when I get the chance in the hopes that one of the mods stickies it to the top. Would be great if we didn't have to keep digging them all up every time someone disputes this subject.

 

 

several years ago there was a thread that had all the interviews until 2009 - 10 I think? But It would be so much better if we had one thread about all the interviews regarding Naruto! I would love you forever.

[ThroughWithLove]

What does this means? 

 

Semanticaga is the most advanced form of the black magic spell Semantics and it requires 59 MP per use. Nonetheless, when used, the user can bypass air-tight arguments by instead trying to redefine the terms used, thereby avoiding a substantive rebuttal entirely. Analyzer-kun is a frequent user of this spell and might resort to it if he can't think of anything else. Granted, it's pretty clear that these interviews are inconsistent.

[VanitasDS76491]

Here's the difference in speculation:
 
Kishimoto says something (Fact), I speculate something based on this fact.
A Reader Infers something (Opinion), they speculate based on that opinion, as if it was fact.
The Manga Says Something (Fact), I speculate something based on this fact.
 
A and C are stronger forms of speculation than B. The problem with B is when we are treating it with fact. When I am speculating, I try to articulate it, as you highlight it above, even if it is referencing fact. So yes, there is speculation, the problem with some speculation, is its treated as fact, and that is where I point that out.
 
Particular to the educated guess part, the fact is we cannot determine the placement 100%, though I offered my own accurate guess.
Just to address the Neji/Shikamaru/Hinata stuff very simply, Hinata acknowledged Naruto from the start of the Chuunin Exams, understanding who he is while everyone else was learning. And Naruto in turn was cheering and marveled by who he saw Hinata was, pushing her on when others had thought it was done. This is really a moment of this sort of bond. For me it's very confusing how someone can think NH doesn't make sense, personally. Ignoring personal opinion of the pairing (I think it's a bit plain), it was quite evident.
 
Your two points are also odd:
1: Follow up on the Story Itself: Elaborate? Is this referencing actual points in the manga? Because I linked to a post that does this considerably.
2: Good Writing: This is subjective? Technically, you can write something badly, but it still make enough sense for an ending to come out.
The actual debate is if NH made sense, which precisely, is there evidence showing that these two make sense getting married together. And with 437 and 615 and the Chuunin Exam Arc, and bits before 615 where Naruto acknowledges Hinata saving him twice, seeing how Hinata felt just by looking at her eyes (Vice versa moment where Hinata can tell its the real Naruto by looking at his eyes. Extra mention that Neji couldn't do this).
 
It's not speculation that Naruto didn't understand this love. As a source of canon, the Last confirms it and puts that answer there. You'd have to dispute the Last as a source of canon, which, is a bit silly to do.
 
On NS, as I've talked about before, few and far between, if any, even, are there moments actually pushed forward seriously by one of the two protagonists, that isn't turned into comic relief, or isn't pushed by an outside character. 600-700 has zero legitimate NS moments.

Really her keeping his heart beating and keeping him alive isn't an NS moment, her hitting not to talk while she was healing him when Minato showed up and asked if she was his girlfriend wasn't an NS moment.

[Khaleesi]

 

Here's the difference in speculation:

 

Kishimoto says something (Fact), I speculate something based on this fact.

A Reader Infers something (Opinion), they speculate based on that opinion, as if it was fact.

The Manga Says Something (Fact), I speculate something based on this fact.

 

A and C are stronger forms of speculation than B. The problem with B is when we are treating it with fact. When I am speculating, I try to articulate it, as you highlight it above, even if it is referencing fact. So yes, there is speculation, the problem with some speculation, is its treated as fact, and that is where I point that out.

 

Particular to the educated guess part, the fact is we cannot determine the placement 100%, though I offered my own accurate guess.

Just to address the Neji/Shikamaru/Hinata stuff very simply, Hinata acknowledged Naruto from the start of the Chuunin Exams, understanding who he is while everyone else was learning. And Naruto in turn was cheering and marveled by who he saw Hinata was, pushing her on when others had thought it was done. This is really a moment of this sort of bond. For me it's very confusing how someone can think NH doesn't make sense, personally. Ignoring personal opinion of the pairing (I think it's a bit plain), it was quite evident.

 

Your two points are also odd:

1: Follow up on the Story Itself: Elaborate? Is this referencing actual points in the manga? Because I linked to a post that does this considerably.

2: Good Writing: This is subjective? Technically, you can write something badly, but it still make enough sense for an ending to come out.

The actual debate is if NH made sense, which precisely, is there evidence showing that these two make sense getting married together. And with 437 and 615 and the Chuunin Exam Arc, and bits before 615 where Naruto acknowledges Hinata saving him twice, seeing how Hinata felt just by looking at her eyes (Vice versa moment where Hinata can tell its the real Naruto by looking at his eyes. Extra mention that Neji couldn't do this).

 

It's not speculation that Naruto didn't understand this love. As a source of canon, the Last confirms it and puts that answer there. You'd have to dispute the Last as a source of canon, which, is a bit silly to do.

 

On NS, as I've talked about before, few and far between, if any, even, are there moments actually pushed forward seriously by one of the two protagonists, that isn't turned into comic relief, or isn't pushed by an outside character. 600-700 has zero legitimate NS moments.

 

I see now where people's opinion about you comes from.

 

Aaaanyway. Let's see.

 

>"The Manga Says Something (Fact), I speculate something based on this fact."

> A Reader Infers something (Opinion), they speculate based on that opinion, as if it was fact.

 

Ahhh, wait. Try to read that again. The manga says somethings, and its a fact, we agree? You and a second person are reading, thus both are readers, right? So, from what you read, you speculate, that's it's what is called infering, which is an opinion at the same level. So none of those are facts.

 

>"Kishimoto says something (Fact), I speculate something based on this fact."

>"The next part is speculation,"

> "The Proud Failure Speech is certainly a heart-booster that changes how Naruto thinks about her, and is certainly the root of an argument that Naruto did love her, but did not understand it sort of moment."

 

Explain me how is this based on a fact. 

Also, if you didn't read, we have the interviews posted above and it's shown where and how he contradicts himself about NH.

 

> "It's not speculation that Naruto didn't understand this love. As a source of canon, the Last confirms it and puts that answer there. You'd have to dispute the Last as a source of canon, which, is a bit silly to do."

 

In The Last happens two things: Naruto falls in love with Hinata and Naruto and Sakura's parting. The first one happens after he sees all what Hinata has thought and done while thinking on him and the second one happens when Sakura gives Naruto a speech on how she will always love Sasuke, which Naruto understands, and also Sakura giving a hand to Hinata who has always liked him.

 

Naruto did not love, but cared about Hinata when he noticed her. It was stated by Kishimoto that he fell in love with her IN the movie and not before. He said he was planning NH to be the end-game but never said Naruto had any sort of romantic feelings towards her. This is just over-reading. And it's actually proved the contrary of what you state.

 

1. Yes. It didnt prove nothing. And I asked a comparison with Hinata's, Neji's, Shikamaru's and Sakura's bond with Naruto. Why? to see the differences and similarities. Starting from this base, we are yet to say if a bond is significantly more special (which is important to establish a couple from an autor POV).

 

2. "This is subjective? Technically, you can write something badly, but it still make enough sense for an ending to come out."

Yeah, you said the same I did, just writing the other option which I also implied: "for much an autor wanted to disclose a thing in certain way, it won't mean, at all, that A. was made correctly; B. makes sense (...) on the way he constructed the story."  Which also means that he can write something badly but the end was to be expected and made sense.

 

Good writing isn't just about orthography or literal resources used correctly, good writing is also about how he constructed the story bit by bit, development and characters interactions for something to be a more fitting, understandable, realistic and fullfiling way to end a story.

 

I'll use an example: Have you watched Scott Pilgrim vs the World? Scott ends up with Ramona, but everyone involved agreed that he should have ended with Knives, given the movie's structure (not the books, because there the story is other). I do not ship them, but I do see how it works, again, in the movie. There was even an alternative ending to because of it.

 

NH is a ship that develops through similiraties (the underdog story), one-sided admiration first and recognition of bravery later. Finishing it in not falling in love until they are above 18, as how Kishimoto said he wanted. On the other hand, NS is a ship that went from the annoyed-sense to understanding and recognition to friendship and comradeship. Please, tell me which one fits more a correct way to depict the development of a romantic bond, thus giving a strong point for it to make sense?

 

>"On NS, as I've talked about before, few and far between, if any, even, are there moments actually pushed forward seriously by one of the two protagonists, that isn't turned into comic relief, or isn't pushed by an outside character. 600-700 has zero legitimate NS moments."

 

Ending a scene in a punch-line (comic relief) doesn't mean necessarily for it to serve only to this purpose. By the same means, NH has also served as comic relief or interrupted, but it has had its serious moments just as how NS did. Exactly as how you said before about NH, take Sakura out of the picture from several scenes and Naruto is dead or unsuccessful. So how one makes more sense than the other if both can fall into the same tags at some point? For it you have to see the weight of their relationship. Most moments between NS its always tagged under the "best friend forever" label, so why would any of NH's moments should be romantic foreshadowing and not a friendship bond?

 

See, my issue here is that whether you claim to be impartial, you seem to interpretate some scenes as "meant to be this way", just as how any fan would do, but you do it in favor of the ending and most what it comes with it. While I debate on how, for me, NS makes more sense whether was or not meant to be an end-game.

Edited by Khaleesi, 29 July 2017 - 08:18 PM.

[Riverkid]

Good Writing: This is subjective? Technically, you can write something badly, but it still make enough sense for an ending to come out

 

Writing isn't Subjective. 'Writing' is one of many components which completes every Storytelling. The Story as a whole is subjective by how each components work together as a working Story, and how the chemistry of each component together affects the view of the individual observer. However each component, such as writing, is based on a standard where it can be valued and rated.

Just because the 'writing' makes 'somehow' or 'enough' sense doesn't automatically values his writing as 'good' one. Writing on a construct (beginning - middle - ending) is just one little piece of the cake.
 

 

The actual debate is if NH made sense, which precisely, is there evidence showing that these two make sense getting married together.

 

 

The actual debate isn't if NH makes sense or not. Even a Movie was produced to develop NH upon till the Marriage, so of course it has to make sense since Kishimoto, as the Mangaka, forced this way. However thats not the Problem what bothers. Maybe there are some NS-Shippers who doesn't accept the work as it is, but more or less the real Problem is that Naruto went full Titanic-Mode from a writing perspective in terms of Charcterwriting over Characterdevelopment up to Dialogues betweens Characters.

I don't care about 'Pairings' in Naruto. I 'was' a huge Fan as a Teenager where i just enjoyed the Show without giving attention to some of the quality-aspects of a Story, but when you grew older you start taking care of these things because you gain the mindset to evaluate those aspects and let them have an influence of your overall perspective towards the Story. I realized how many weaknesses Kishimoto provided his own Work and started to dislike his development and the outcome.

Thats propbaly the main reason why im here, because atleast some of the NS-Shippers are able to take criticizm towards Naruto, while on r/Naruto u just can't bring the strongest justifications to why Naruto is a bad-written Story without having to deal with Tryhard fans who worship the work of Kishimoto.

I can't tell if NS would be a better alternative ending, because there are too many other things which just bottles me to the point where i simply dont care about the pairing-outcome. However if the Story were written in a more reasonable way and with way better 'writing' i think NS would make alot more sense than NH, not because i like them more as a couple. 


 

Edited by Riverkid, 29 July 2017 - 09:31 PM.

[Khaleesi]

 

Writing isn't Subjective. 'Writing' is one of many components which completes every Storytelling. The Story as a whole is subjective by how each components work together as a working Story, and how the chemistry of each component together affects the view of the individual observer. However each component, such as writing, is based on a standard where it can be valued and rated.

Just because the 'writing' makes 'somehow' or 'enough' sense doesn't automatically values his writing as 'good' one. Writing on a construct (beginning - middle - ending) is just one little piece of the cake.
 

 

The actual debate isn't if NH makes sense or not. Even a Movie was produced to develop NH upon till the Marriage, so of course it has to make sense since Kishimoto, as the Mangaka, forced this way. However thats not the Problem what bothers. Maybe there are some NS-Shippers who doesn't accept the work as it is, but more or less the real Problem is that Naruto went full Titanic-Mode from a writing perspective in terms of Charcterwriting over Characterdevelopment up to Dialogues betweens Characters.

I don't care about 'Pairings' in Naruto. I 'was' a huge Fan as a Teenager where i just enjoyed the Show without giving attention to some of the quality-aspects of a Story, but when you grew older you start taking care of these things because you gain the mindset to evaluate those aspects and let them have an influence of your overall perspective towards the Story. I realized how many weaknesses Kishimoto provided his own Work and started to dislike his development and the outcome.

Thats propbaly the main reason why im here, because atleast some of the NS-Shippers are able to take criticizm towards Naruto, while on r/Naruto u just can't bring the strongest justifications to why Naruto is a bad-written Story without having to deal with Tryhard fans who worship the work of Kishimoto.

I can't tell if NS would be a better alternative ending, because there are too many other things which just bottles me to the point where i simply dont care about the pairing-outcome. However if the Story were writtin in a more reasonable way and with way better 'writing' i think NS would make alot more sense than NH, not because i like them more as a couple. 
 

I support the highlighted points.

 

But I'll answer to this: "The actual debate isn't if NH makes sense or not. Even a Movie was produced to develop NH upon till the Marriage, so of course it has to make sense since Kishimoto, as the Mangaka, forced this way."

 

On one hand, we both are actually discussing if NH makes sense or not, or if NS does, so yeah, that's about our discussion, nothing more, nothing less.

 

Nevertheless, I do support the point that their clumsy development as a couple later made was forced but made the ship come together. 

[ThroughWithLove]

I think that when you put all of the interviews together (including the ones made prior to the ending), you get the sense that Kishimot wanted to make Sakura a proper heroine, but simply had no idea how to go about doing this. He tried to make her prettier and tried giving her new abilities, but nothing would stick and her popularity continued to be at issue. In one interview, he outright says that he will try to make her a proper heroine from now on. But no matter what he did, she just never fell into place. At the same, he's facing pressure from Studio Pierott (see one of the above interviews where he mentions said studio's desire for a NH movie). He's also watching youtube interviews from diehard NH supporters like Sawyer7 (who he specifically mentions as having watched). So finally, he says "screw it." Lo and behold, a one note side character becomes a heroine overnight and Sakura's arc spends the reminder of its time fading away into obscurity. A side character who I could literally and easily edit out of this 700 chapter manga in a smooth fashion if someone were willing to draw me 20-30 new pages of content and material. 

 

Of course, I'm very much inclined to agree with our good friend, Riverkid and the following assessment: 

 

I don't care about 'Pairings' in Naruto. I 'was' a huge Fan as a Teenager where i just enjoyed the Show without giving attention to some of the quality-aspects of a Story, but when you grew older you start taking care of these things because you gain the mindset to evaluate those aspects and let them have an influence of your overall perspective towards the Story. I realized how many weaknesses Kishimoto provided his own Work and started to dislike his development and the outcome.

Thats propbaly the main reason why im here, because atleast some of the NS-Shippers are able to take criticizm towards Naruto, while on r/Naruto u just can't bring the strongest justifications to why Naruto is a bad-written Story without having to deal with Tryhard fans who worship the work of Kishimoto.

I can't tell if NS would be a better alternative ending, because there are too many other things which just bottles me to the point where i simply dont care about the pairing-outcome. However if the Story were writtin in a more reasonable way and with way better 'writing' i think NS would make alot more sense than NH, not because i like them more as a couple. 

 

And for me, I never really cared about "shipping" NS in the traditional sense. I simply looked at the character progression throughout much of the story and saw NS as the logical outcome of Sakura's character arc, especially considering the author has never specified a reason as to why she's in love with Sasuke. For much of the manga, her arc appeared to center around the themes of maturity and self-discovery and it appeared that Naruto's feelings for her was the vehicle for these themes to be explored. But alas, that never came to fruition. And not only did that never come to fruition, but so did a great deal of things in this series  that simply leaves me scratching my head to this very day.

Edited by ThroughWithLove, 29 July 2017 - 09:31 PM.

[T XD]

After all these interviews Kishimoto had, it's better for him to not open his mouth anymore cause every interview contradicts the other. Either he forgets what he said in each interview or he doesn't care.