749 replies to this topic

[SlyNinjaKnight]

Statement: The story of rescuing Sasuke shouldn't be the main focus of Naruto (character and/or series).

 

Agree or disagree?

 

This is a tough one. One the surface, it should be an immediate agree, since Naruto was the main character and his first goal was to gain recognition as himself instead of 'that boy'. But if you look deeper, Sasuke becoming Naruto's friend was something that did help the story along, at least as long as Naruto used Sasuke as a measuring stick. And it was also meant to be a tie back to the previous generations (Shodai/Madara, Jiraiya/Orochimaru) but because of how Naruto was still much too naive in believing that Sasuke could truly be 'saved'. Both Jiraiya and the Shodai wanted their best friends back but they also realized that they (Madara and Orochimaru) were too far gone down the path of darkness to be saved. 

 

In the end, I disagree that saving/rescuing Sasuke should have been the 'main' focus but I agree it should have been a focus of the series. Make it something similar to how Sakura said in the Land of Iron Arc, how she wanted to save Sasuke from falling even farther into darkness, even if it meant killing him. 

[SlyNinjaKnight]

 

The Sharingan being the most haxious technique/blood trait ever introduced in fiction is probably Sasuke's biggest calling card to coolness and biggest reason to be hated. I don't mind a genius, but when your eyes are the biggest reason for that, then things get complicated. Lets also not forget the BS excuse Kishimoto concocted with these so called eyes causing Uchiha to go insane when they lose their loved ones. I don't need a realistic answer, but even for fiction, that seems highly illogical. But I'm getting well off topic.

 

 

The Sharingan releasing essentially a 'neurotoxin' that causes madness was the biggest hack job I've ever read. It is honestly such a cop out for Sasuke and all his decisions. It made it seem like Sasuke was not in control of himself nor his decisions, like how being considered insane and unable to stand trial (which is probably what happened, Naruto and Kakashi probably spun some sob story to the other Kages to make them not string Sasuke up by his ankles.).

[MangaReader]

No particular order here, just forgot about multiquote after going to quote 4Life

 

How does he even know that? What? Naruto is that bland to know him easy?

Taking a lot of assumptions here, but Tobi likely told him? I mean Sasuke did join the Akatuski before Pain left for the Leaf Village...

@mangareader:That was part of the problem. Once Itatchi was dead, Sasuke's storyline came to an abrupt end so Kishi had to somehow cram him into the future plotlines. He should have planned Sasuke's character arc ahead and have a proper parallel to Naruto's story

I think what sucked the most out of Sasuke's purpose was Itachi was labelled a good guy after his death. If you're gonna stick with the avenger route, keep it there instead of Sasuke changing three times (4 times if you include Naruto's words of what the manga would like us to think as redemption) after his initial purpose of revenge. 

@mangareader
Naruto & sasuke dynamic could be like guts and Griffith with sasuke as the anti hero version of Griffith.
This is why I am not against team taka nor sai & Yamato since their presence could enrich the main characters.
I don't hate his character nor did I like it, but I acknowledge the importance of his character to the story. So I agree with you.

I just disagree when sasuke took over the entire of manga to the point we can change the title to sasuke and it will work. Not even Griffith could do that.

I think what kishi mean by pure is naive like child. But yeah I don't think kishi could justify it. And kishi can't write genius character.

I don't know if Sasuke took over rather Kishimoto had to make him look like a guy who changed for the better only to really just go back to the lonesome douchebag who only respects Naruto. 

[BlackBird19]

First off, I agree that the focus on saving Sasuke really hurt this story. When you set a premise like that so early on in your tale you generally back yourself into a corner of having to write a redemptive story about the guy who needs saving while focusing less on the guy who helps save him. We were drawn in early by the Naruto character and his tale of rising up from nothing and working hard to attain your goals. Then at the very end of pt1 we have the groundwork laid out for the redemption story. That's what happened to this manga. I don't think Kishi quit caring until the very end, I just think he genuinely never thought out how he could write this idea of his well.

 

That's why everything feels so forced. He refused to give up on the redemption of Sasuke. So he felt he had to chronicle Sasuke's descent just as much as he showed Naruto's growth. But to make people relate to Sasuke more he felt he had to write a legitimate and detailed backstory that would cause readers to feel sorry for Sasuke and root for his redemption. Unintentionally creating a lack of backstory concerning the MC and his family, along with other characters. This wound up being hit and miss because Kishi isn't a good enough writer to get the majority of his fans to understand what he was trying to convey. Some bought it and some didn't, yet all the excuses he wrote into Sasuke and his family's background wound up feeling so lacking or contrived. Those writing skills are what split the fandom in so many ways.

 

His refusal to make Sasuke his antagonist to Naruto's protagonist, or at least rival who acknowledged Naruto somewhat as often as he was acknowledged, left Naruto without a villain who could maintain focus on the MC. Therefore maintain focus on the actual plot. Instead he kept Sasuke as someone who was indifferent to the MC and caused a lessening of the MC's importance in the eyes of a lot of fans. Naruto just didn't come off as cool because he was the one constantly thinking, worrying and chasing after someone who hardly gave him a second thought. This in turn allowed fans to start caring for or concentrating more on certain side characters and the pairings.

 

Kishi was just not capable of writing a story as complex as the idea he had. One of a hero's rise while simultaneously redeeming his rival who supposedly never completely descends into the darkness in a long drawn out fashion.

[TouKen4Life3g]

I guess but I don't know. It felt not needed. Sadly the minority here, but that's like Kamui telling Gintoki back in Yoshiwara Arc that how he fails to stop Takasugi. Was he needed to be mention? Because he's popular? And? I don't know, that bother me the more I think about it. Most likely because I am against pedestal angle.

Also, remember how the statement is worded. I said the main focus. Meaning it's the main priority. So if you don't agree with that statement but say that it should be less focus, that's actually agreeing with it, because making it less is now making it one of the focus, not the.

[Bail o' Lies]

Well we all kind of veered off from. Should Sakura and Naruto focused on rescuing Sasuke? To what's the point of Sasuke existence in part two?

 

"Kamui telling Gintoki back in Yoshiwara Arc that how he fails to stop Takasugi"...What?

 

Anyways one of the main problem with Sasuke was kishi never let Sasuke just be evil. He always was walking that line. So if it was hard for anyone of us to tell if we were suppose to think he was a bad guy or not because kishi seemed to absolutely refuse to just let Sasuke be evil for any extended period of time. For example after the land of iron arc Sasuke was crazy and was willing to work with Tobi in whatever crazy plan that man had in order to get revenge on the village and have enough power to kill Naruto. First real thing that happens to Sasuke in the war arc. He meets itachi and we have a flashback of some leaf ninja badmouthing itachi which angered sasuke. Immediately sliding him back into anti hero/anti villain again.

 

It's the reason why Kishimoto had Sasuke stab both Karin and Sakura. It's the only way for us to know that Kishimoto is saying "Yes, Sasuke a bad guy for this part."

Edited by Bail o' Lies, 10 March 2016 - 05:35 AM.

[TouKen4Life3g]

Well we all kind of veered off from. Should Sakura and Naruto focus on rescuing Sasuke? To what's the point of Sasuke existence in part two?

Sasuke only exist to kill Itachi before Team 7. Once the first part was done, now what? If you're not planning to go to the Team 7 part, what can you do? Make him a destroyer? A sudden hero? A martyr? I don't know. He lost me when he wanted to be a Hokage. Funny because I pitched in on how it won't work for him to say, "I want to save Konoha," and sure enough, he did.

[LuckyChi7]

In retrospective of the entire series I do believe that saving Sasuke ultimately hurt the story lot if ask me, but something came to mind when I remembered how dark early Shippuden up to Pain was that was the peak of storytelling being great (though the Sasuke wanting to destroy the hidden leaf did make me go like that's a little weird, but okay). 

 

 

Here's what I think should've happened with Naruto's character and his connection Sasuke.  Obviously after the pain arc he could understand why Sasuke wants revenge since Jiraiya's death took place... Here is the thing Naruto was presented as the Hero of Konoha so instead of becoming a total wimp in front of the Raikage like "OH PLEASE FORGIVE SASUKE FOR WHAT HE DID!" and don't get me started on when he starts hyperventilating  because Sakura was gonna kill Sasuke.. ughh that still annoys me to this day,  Naruto should've been like  let me deal with Sasuke  ya know cut to Kage Summit Naruto and Sasuke have their fight... Seeing how far Sasuke has gone Naruto at the point will be like "Look I understand what revenge is and why you're doing this, but you'll have to get through me in order to get to the village."  maybe even saying "It took me this long, but I realize now as the hero that saved Konoha you can't be saved and that means I have to stop you once and for all. Even if it means killing a friend."  Something like this would've shown growth and development towards Naruto it would've gone from saving Sasuke at the start of Part II to possibly killing him. 

[TouKen4Life3g]

It is rather funny that everyone was in status quo except Sakura, who went backwards by the end of Kage Summit Arc.

Edited by TouKen4Life3g, 10 March 2016 - 05:37 AM.

[Bail o' Lies]

It is rather funny that everyone was in status quo except Sakura, who went backwards by the end of Kage Summit Arc.

She went to the status quo the editors and assistants (who were hinata fans) wanted her to be. Part one Sakura. 

Edited by Bail o' Lies, 10 March 2016 - 05:41 AM.

[TouKen4Life3g]

She went to the status quo the editors and assistants (who were hinata fans) wanted her to be. Part one Sakura. 

Touché.

I only said it because instead of status quo of working together with Naruto, she actually said that she was a nuisance and she will leave them to work things out. Yeah, our heroine, ladies and gentlemen.

[Bail o' Lies]

Touché.

I only said it because instead of status quo of working together with Naruto, she actually said that she was a nuisance and she will leave them to work things out. Yeah, our heroine, ladies and gentlemen.

Which is what his then new editors and assistants wanted. Because Part two Sakura was Naruto's right hand/lancer/partner/best friend up until then. After they got their way she was replaced by Shikamaru in that role, and by the end Naruto's love interest by Hinata for The Last and Sasuke for Bolt's movie.

Edited by Bail o' Lies, 10 March 2016 - 05:55 AM.

[TouKen4Life3g]

Or rather, Shizune stay and managed to stay young. If only there's a seal on her forehead, I will buy it but it's an excuse to say no Sakura.

[James S Cassidy]

She did try to manipulate his feelings. This is true whether she held feelings or not. It's true even if it ends NS. Even if she was madly in love withe him and only him, the timing of the confession clearly indicates it wasn't being done for it's own sake. She was trying to use his feelings to get him to take a course of action that she desired. It was for his own safety, but, at it's core, she was using them to get him to do something she wanted him to do. It's manipulation regardless of whether her feelings were genuine.

I do disagree that it makes her this horrible person though,

She knew simply saying, you don't have to after him, it's dangerous wouldn't cut. Moreover, because of what Sai said to her she felt the reason he was so dedicated was POAL. I think she also believes (correctly), that saying I free you from that, wouldn't do it. Because of Sai, she believed he was killing himself because of his feelings for her and that it was rooted in what he believes she wanted. This obviously turned out to be incorrect, but given how the evens unfolded for her it's not an unreasonable belief.

Given what she believes his motivating factor is, she was wanted to free him from that promise. I can't say this was the best way to do it, but as I said, simply saying your free was't going to accomplish that. Then again, I cannot think of a good way that would also have been effective.

It's irritating to me that people let their pairing preference shut down their empathy on this. It's not this horrible thing that blights her character. It's an entirely human thing to do.
 

And you know what is funny? I could argue that Sakura was manipulative because she was afraid for Naruto's life thus making it a "doing the wrong things for the right reasons," but then you look at Naruto and all the times he has manipulated people and you have to wonder what was his right reasons? If anything, Naruto is even more of a scumbag because you could argue that thanks to Naruto the Last he only wanted selfish reasons such as popularity.

Then you have Hinata who is just manipulative, but she is passive aggressive manipulating. She manipulates everyone to feel sorry for her and pity her including he own family and instead of actually getting stronger, she just expected people to accept her for who she was and worship her.

[NeonRanger]

 

 

what trully irks me about this scene in particular is that its conclusion in the ending gives meat to Haters arguments about Sakura being manipulative and using Naruto. we know this is false but with the ending now impossible to dispute.

 

Kishi didn't gave proper closure to Sakura after the Kage Summit Arc. Which is why I hate the Arc when it comes to Sakura. Imo, everything after the ending, only made room for Sakura haters to grow, and even some NS shippers left for NH, because the were convinced by NH debaters that Sakura was a manipulative character. And the ending only helped NH be proven right because she ends up with Sasuke.

 

NH doesn't care about Naruto using Sakura for rivalry in The Last because majority hate Sakura or prefer Hinata over her. 

 

Same with Gaiden; a lot of SS shippers left for NH as well because some NH shippers convinced them how NH is the least problematic pairing which Gaiden proved was right. 

 

There are no debates now, but after the ending and The Last, the Hinata hate grew but Hinata supporters also grew as well. The ending made every character but Hinata look bad, especially Sakura. And Hinata looks bad as well, but people ignore this.  

[TouKen4Life3g]

The worst you can do in writing is justified the hate on a unintentional hated character.

[Yyubie]

Topic about Sakura is just never gets old and never fail to cause drama and debate. It always brings drama and tons of questions

[Tsuki Hoshino]

Isn't that a good thing?

[NeonRanger]

It kinda depends. For Sakura, if you go on NF and search for threads about her as of currently, it's more like

trash talkers vs. pro-Sakura (mostly SS); it's like who can piss off pro-Sakura fans first rather than debate whereas and debate about Orochimaru being stronger than Itachi gets very serious debates. One wrote a 10 page essay about it (eh).

 

Pre-ending: any Sakura debate was treated seriously because there were people who care. You can get into a debate without having to feel pissed off or sour. Nowadays it's a debate more out of spite and pissing off any remaining Sakura fan. 

Edited by NeonRanger, 10 March 2016 - 12:41 PM.

[rocci]

Regarding sasuke, kishi need to take note over rivalry story from the master. Takehiko inoue.

@neon ranger
It's still the same even before the ending. People tried to piss off sakura fan.