3406 replies to this topic

[Codus N]

I said it once, twice, and I'll say it again. Nowhere in my post did I put my opinion as Naruto's opinion.
I WASN'T TALKING ABOUT NARUTO'S OPINION IN THE FIRST PLACE. NARUTO'S OPINION HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH MY POST. Where did you even get the idea? That came out of nowhere. I wasn't even discussing about NH or NS in that post either.

My post was solely dedicated on how Ianalyze Sakura and Hinata's sacrifices.

Please stop putting words in my mouth(or should I say post?).
If I say, "Temari is a hottie!", are you going to say "Naruto never stated that Temari was hot. We don't even know what Naruto's opinion of Temari is." ?
If I say, "Sasuke is much more handsome than Naruto in part two!" are you going to say, "Sakura never stated that she thought Sasuke was more handsome than Naruto in part two. We don't even know what Sakura's opinion of Sasuke's face is." ?
PLEASE. THESE. ARE. JUST. MY. OPINIONS.

BECAUSE I WASN'T TALKING ABOUT NARUTO'S OPINION. Thank you very much.

I am aware you didn't say that. Re-read my post. I said that you came off as if you were thinking Naruto's opinions=your opinions. I know you didn't mean it that way, but you came off as that way to me initially.

[Sakamaki Izayoi]

I also do not understand why you seem to think that there is some competetion between Hinata and Sakura. There is not. Hinata can have her moment to shine and Sakura can have hers. Sakura not being the one to help Naruto this time does not erase all those moments earlier in the manga where she helped and supported him. Hinata helping Naruto and the possible NH do not in any way make Sakura useless or destroy her character. Hinata also hasn't taken Sakura's place, because Sakura has never wanted a place by Naruto's side. Sakura is perfectly content, as far as we know, to help Naruto along with everybody else without wanting anything more with him.

I'm sorry but she is, she is taking the spot, now next chapter they fighting along is a task for a main heroine, i have nothing against hinata's development i knew that something like that was coming but not at the expense of sakura's character.

[ramenanmitsu]

I am aware you didn't say that. Re-read my post. I said that you came off as if you were thinking Naruto's opinions=your opinions. I know you didn't mean it that way, but you came off as that way to me initially.

Okay. Seems like we had a misunderstanding on both ends. Sorry about that.

Edited by ramenanmitsu, 27 December 2012 - 03:37 PM.

[Nate River]

I also do not understand why you seem to think that there is some competetion between Hinata and Sakura. There is not. Hinata can have her moment to shine and Sakura can have hers. Sakura not being the one to help Naruto this time does not erase all those moments earlier in the manga where she helped and supported him. Hinata helping Naruto and the possible NH do not in any way make Sakura useless or destroy her character. Hinata also hasn't taken Sakura's place, because Sakura has never wanted a place by Naruto's side. Sakura is perfectly content, as far as we know, to help Naruto along with everybody else without wanting anything more with him.

Is that directed at me?

I don't have much exposure to manga beyond this, but that is one thing worth nothing about the entire triangle. Despite its existence, you're right, there is really no true competition anywhere. The characters don't see it that way. I don't think any leg sees each any other as competition or an obstacle. Naruto saw Sasuke that originally, but not anymore.

Whatever the result, I expect the sides that don't get what they want will be content with whatever happens. It's hard to imagine anyone (in the manga) being outraged or acrimonious about it.

[六道仙人]

Today is even hinata's birthday.... What a nightmare I'm living...

[PhenixElite]

Ahh well i see its slowly cooling donw here.

This game will be played a few times again i think. But till now i still stick to my opinion that kishis knows what hes doing.
Now we have 2 Weeks to accept the current chapter, and as soon as Sakura comes in play again we all will be happy again.

Remeber: min. 1 1/2 year to go . There are going to be a lot of good and bad times again till the end.

@六道仙人: Now we know why she got that focus

Edited by PhenixElite, 27 December 2012 - 03:42 PM.

[Poison_In_Your_Coffee]

It just bothers me because submitting to Obito specifically means trusting him that it'll be as he says, and there is absolutely no reason to do that. In fact, Obito continues to give him reasons not to.

Oh, definitely. It was, IMO, absolute moment of despair for Naruto and he was not thinking straight. Maybe he just hesitated for a moment. In a way I do agree that it was pretty convenient that Naruto would break like that now when he didn't for Jiraiya. Though, Obito is not the only one causing trouble nor has he ever been the only one so it's not like by killing Obito Naruto will save the world from any further suffering or death for the rest of forever. Maybe for a moment Naruto wanted to think there was effective way to make sure no more Nejis have to die ever again.

Nate River, no, it's not. It's more against everyone who has been going all "Sakura ruined" in this forum and elsewhere online. To clarify, I meant mostly this "Sakura is the heroine" thing. Is it not possible for there to be two prominent female characters? If Hinata becomes a new heroine, how does that make Sakura any less of a heroine? They have both supported him, why compete who has supported him more?

Edited by Poison_In_Your_Coffee, 27 December 2012 - 03:52 PM.

[tricksie]

puckreathof, primarycolours - welcome back!!!!

Hinata is made of fan service. Her storyline is like a fanfic. She does not act, she reacts. She is sweet and loyal and fearful and needs Naruto to make her feel safe. Basically, she is the opposite of Sakura. Remember that. Because one is the heroine who acts, who tries fearlessly (even when she fails), who fights and holds her own, and who goes out to protect Naruto with losing him being her only fear. That is Sakura. What does Hinata think about when she's standing in front of Obito? How safe Naruto makes her feel. That is not the internal monologue of a heroine. Which leads me to my first point....

First off, Sakura is still the heroine. That hasn't changed because Hinata has not done anything heroine worthy! She has wielded a few anonymous family jutsus against unnamed assailants, and always as part of a larger group. Hinata has had no special recognition (as Sakura has, from powerful contemporaries and even from Zabuza after death), and Hinata has not been compared to a powerful ninja (Sakura to Tsunade) and said to probably eclipse said powerful ninja. Sakura has the stuff that makes a heroine. Hinata simply doesn't. And being a body shield, while honorable and tear-worthy, is not what makes a series heroine. That's what makes a martyr.

Second - Hinata is not done. This is not a resolution of her character, no more than all the little NH moments before were. Sorry, but I think she's here to stay. However, don't lost hope....

Third - Just because NH now has legs to stand on doesn't undo one bit of NS development of the past 600 chapters.

Fourth - PC123 and ramenanmitsu, I agree with feeling uncomfortable about Naruto giving Hinata so much credit. I tend to think he's speaking to everyone, not just her. "Thanks to you (all) who have stayed by my side. But yeah, idolizing is very different form standing beside Naruto and bearing the same battles he has. Hinata is very far down the list of people who have stood beside him.

Fifth - Which leads to my next point, that even though this is an NH moment, it is still heavily one-sided. Hinata is focused entirely on her feelings for him. Naruto's feelings are unknown. But we are meant to wonder about them....

Sixth - I agree with codus that there is a hinted reciprocation of Naruto's feelings. Not from Naruto, but through his actions with Hinata, taking her hand to charge her with chakra. It can be seen as a teammate thing or it can be seen as a love thing. The point is that it's vague. And it's vague for a reason - to drive up tension.

Lastly, I'm hoping there's not a big NS moment coming up. I don't want a tit-for-tat pairing war. I want Sakura to be treated like the heroine and have her own storyline, not just as a pawn in a shipping war.

[alexander]

Nate, I don't think obito argument is that if Naruto gives in, everything will be better, but more on the lines that if he keeps struggling, his friends will keep dying pointless deaths, and this sacrifice will be for nothing. So it's better to give up in order to avoid more bloodshed. At least that's what i think.

[primary colours123]

Hi,

I also do not understand why you seem to think that there is some competetion between Hinata and Sakura. There is not. Hinata can have her moment to shine and Sakura can have hers. Sakura not being the one to help Naruto this time does not erase all those moments earlier in the manga where she helped and supported him. Hinata helping Naruto and the possible NH do not in any way make Sakura useless or destroy her character. Hinata also hasn't taken Sakura's place, because Sakura has never wanted a place by Naruto's side. Sakura is perfectly content, as far as we know, to help Naruto along with everybody else without wanting anything more with him.

As I might be one of the people you are talking about:
No, there is no competition between Sakura and Hinata.
No one is saying that giving Hinata what she wished for is destroying Sakura's character (or maybe I haven't seen it yet).
Giving Hinata more credit than what has been implied through canon (if just in Naruto's eyes) is what is bothering.
Sakura might be very content doing what she is. I know for a fact that healers always love healing best.
But, when you have done so many things for someone, big and small, without a wish for recognition, changed yourself bit by bit by being inspired by them, or by trying to be better for them, you deserve a bit of recognition in their eyes.
Not saying Hinata has not done anything for Naruto, she deserves recognition for what she tried to do. But Hinata's impact has not been so insidious, or so constant and also when needed, or unneeded, that it becomes a part of you. Naruto instinctively trusts Sakura, always thinks of her when he thinks of his important people, but for him it is more of a result of his own feelings and the unseen and unacknowledged contribution by Sakura would remain so. This is what spurs the comparison.
Sakura is constantly being sidelined, and not just in the present arc, by the mangaka, and consequently the hero.

Hinata had never supported Naruto to his face when he was lonely, never gave him attention and friendship when he craved it, yet Naruto is holding her hand now. It is with her that he is moving into the battlefield, and it is her sacrifice that he keeps on acknowledging, to the point that Kurama had to forcibly point out the flaw in his thoughts.
The mangaka could have pulled this hand holding and sudden subtle romance much better, had he given it some prior warning.
Now, it feels like he is forcibly promoting Hinata (and still keeping her a Naruto satellite- I can't say how much I disliked that last thought from Hinata), and by doing so, is unfortunately sidelining other rookies.

That said, I know the manga is not over yet, and maybe... just maybe Sakura would get her due acknowledgement, from naruto and from the Mangaka.

Take care,
pc123

P.S.: I know I was rambling. Sorry, it's been too long.

Edit: Hi tricksie. :waves

Edited by primary colours123, 27 December 2012 - 03:59 PM.

[Nate River]

Nate, I don't think obito argument is that if Naruto gives in, everything will be better, but more on the lines that if he keeps struggling, his friends will keep dying pointless deaths, and this sacrifice will be for nothing. So it's better to give up in order to avoid more bloodshed. At least that's what i think.

Then it's incredibly short-sited and delusional. Obito has stated what he wants and even offered to make Naruto Hokage in dreamland. The consequences of that choice are self-evident. That world has been what Obito has been arguing for this whole time, not just a cessation of hostilities. And what is the point of such a world if it's not all sunshine and rainbows; an escape from reality? It would be the path of least resistance.

And still, it requires him to rely on Obito. That, ultimately, is why Naruto's actions bother me.

Lastly, I'm hoping there's not a big NS moment coming up. I don't want a kitten-for-tat pairing war. I want Sakura to be treated like the heroine and have her own storyline, not just as a pawn in a shipping war.

As much as I would enjoy fandom tweaking if I were in his shoes, the quality of the story comes first. Throwing a moment simply as a counter-balance, I would agree, would be disappointing.

[Chatte]

Well, what can I say? I loved Hinata's slap and speech to Naruto, surprisingly enough, I didn't felt threatened by NH moment and you know me, however, I still dislike Kishi's treatment in regards to Sakura.

But this chapter led me to a prediction... Hinata got her way with holding hands, right? Now every rookie will get that panel time, Sakura I am sure will be last.
They will fight together. But when? Remember that Kishi said Naruto and Sasuke will meet on the batterfield in this war? Sakura always said that together, the two of them will be getting Sasuke back, so I expect that time to be the next big-time panel for Sakura... and maybe the realization of her feelings for Naruto and Sasuke.

[fireandice]

Then it's incredibly short-sited and delusional. Obito has stated what he wants and even offered to make Naruto Hokage in dreamland. The consequences of that choice are self-evident. That world has been what Obito has been arguing for this whole time, not just a cessation of hostilities. It would be the path of least resistance.

And still, it requires him to rely on Obito. That, ultimately, is why Naruto's actions bother me.

As much as I would enjoy fandom tweaking if I were in his shoes, the quality of the story comes first. Throwing a moment simply as a counter-balance, I would agree, would be disappointing.

I think Naruto was just shocked momentarily, really. Neji died in his arms, and FOR him. Naruto probably felt directly responsible for someone's death in a way he never has before. And Obito rubbed it in by reminding him how his parents and Jiraiya were dead here. Just for a moment, he would do anything to change Neji's death I guess.

[tricksie]

Even for the satellite Hinata, she has never stated that as the ultimate endgame. I don't doubt that she wants that but when she says what she wants its always other things; like being useful or helpful or the holding hand thing in 573. My rational for believing she should have died at her confession is because she got to do those things and nothing about her character or what she said she wanted prior to that ever demanded a response. The subsequent development changed that, but it could have been done. Likewise with this scene, this could be it. She got what she said she wanted and this could be the end of her development. Nothing in this scene, really demands he proceed any further with it .

I have wondered about that too, if Hinata or even Sakura will be targeted next.

If I were Obito, I'd really be ticked and want to stomp Naruto into the ground. A friend just dies in his arms, and Naruto is back up in five minutes spouting his ninja way? Obito wanted to hurt Naruto, and he failed. So I could see Obito going after Hinata just to get back at Naruto.

But I could also see him saying "I'll take the thing you love..." then pulling a switch and going after Sakura. Sakura's "death" at Obito's hand would taken down both Naruto and Kakashi. So there's a high collateral damage there. (I say "death" because she would never get killed off. There'd be a reset button somewhere.)

I don't think it will, so I'll jump in with one. Was that Naruto reaching for Obito? If so, I am so disappointed in him for that.

I saw in the debate thread someone say Neji need to die to prove Obito wrong. I'd only agree that its needed to prove to Obito that he is wrong. Obito being wrong is self-evident to me and stuff like this is why. The guy claiming there is nothing but despair is proving his point by inflicting despair on our hero, and doing so by taking away the more expendible section of his friend base. So you're going to reach out for THAT guy? He promises a better world, but Naruto's world only blows because of that guy his reaching for? It it were me I'd tell him to screw off out of pure spite.

Why the hell would you submit to the vision of the very guy who is the reason you feel much despire? More importantly, this guy used his power to kill your friends and you will escape to a reality of HIS creation, depending on his word that it will be as great as he says it is and you will get what you want because he says so?

I wouldn't believe in it.

I'm sorry. Naruto came off as so weak here. I don't care if Neji died. Obito is the bastard that killed him and Naruto's willing to submit to that? I'd feel better if Obito made a better case, but he hasn't. His case that reality sucks is made solely by the fact that he is making reality suck for everyone, so they must submit to his alternate reality where, trust him, it doesn't suck? Bah.

I hope I read that wrong.

I think that may have been the most disappointing moment of the chapter and not the shipping stuff.

I was really disappointed in him too. Really, really disappointed. After all this time and all those people saying the same thing to him, that he would break so easily.... *shakes head*

[Codus N]

Okay. Seems like we had a misunderstanding on both ends. Sorry about that.

No problem. Glad that we can clear things up

First off, Sakura is still the heroine. That hasn't changed because Hinata has not done anything heroine worthy! She has wielded a few anonymous family jutsus against unnamed assailants, and always as part of a larger group. Hinata has had no special recognition (as Sakura has, from powerful contemporaries and even from Zabuza after death), and Hinata has not been compared to a powerful ninja (Sakura to Tsunade) and said to probably eclipse said powerful ninja. Sakura has the stuff that makes a heroine. Hinata simply doesn't. And being a body shield, while honorable and tear-worthy, is not what makes a series heroine. That's what makes a martyr.

Second - Hinata is not done. This is not a resolution of her character, no more than all the little NH moments before were. Sorry, but I think she's here to stay. However, don't lost hope....

Lastly, I'm hoping there's not a big NS moment coming up. I don't want a kitten-for-tat pairing war. I want Sakura to be treated like the heroine and have her own storyline, not just as a pawn in a shipping war.

As kirabook and xxRGxx put it, Hinata's coming off more as a heroine more than ever because of that speech. The heroine is not to just support the hero physically but emotionally and mentally as well. Here, Hinata has done all of that. And in fact, I also have to point out that one of our arguments against NH is that Sakura has always been there for Naruto emotionally and mentally as well. And yet, here, Hinata is the one doing that. She even saved him from one of the darkest moments in his life. That sounds very heroine-like to me.

What you've stated above is the physical aspect of a heroine. In most storylines the heroine's role is supposed to be the emotional support for the hero. And I think the emotional aspect is more important for a heroine than the physical aspect.

As for the last part, I'm a bit problematic about that. On one hand, I really want Sakura to get that heroine moment and stand as her own character. But the problem is, much like Hinata, her defining trait is her love life. So if there's going to be development for Sakura, then there has to be development for her in the romance department as well.

[Fenris]

Wait, does Naruto taking her hand / charging her chakra mean they're gonna fight together? He'll end up just having to save her again. It's gonna go around in circles.

[Nate River]

I think Naruto was just shocked momentarily, really. Neji died in his arms, and FOR him. Naruto probably felt directly responsible for someone's death in a way he never has before. And Obito rubbed it in by reminding him how his parents and Jiraiya were dead here. Just for a moment, he would do anything to change Neji's death I guess.

And his parents were Obito's fault too.

Obito running to Madara made sense because even if Madara was responsible, as some have speculated, Obito does NOT know that. So he is not accepting something from the very person causing his pain. At least not knowingly.

If Naruto did that, I would understand and while still a weakness, wouldn't be so bothersome.

But those people are dead because of him. Directly. And he knows it. And as trixsie said, he just watched it happen and after Neji JUST made the same point Hinata did.

Trixsie's point just adds to my disappointment in him.

If I were Obito, I'd really be ticked and want to stomp Naruto into the ground. A friend just dies in his arms, and Naruto is back up in five minutes spouting his ninja way? Obito wanted to hurt Naruto, and he failed. So I could see Obito going after Hinata just to get back at Naruto.

But I could also see him saying "I'll take the thing you love..." then pulling a switch and going after Sakura. Sakura's "death" at Obito's hand would taken down both Naruto and Kakashi. So there's a high collateral damage there. (I say "death" because she would never get killed off. There'd be a reset button somewhere.)

Why not Kakashi? It would be the ultimate three-fer for Obito. It would inflict pain by taking away his mentor, eliminate the only counter to Kamui (if its still needed) we have seen, and Kakashi killed Rin.

[VTamer Taichi]

Ah, this chapter was great and easily better than One Piece this week. FXD, major props to your post and to kidninja's earlier post about gut-checking time. This chapter really ironed out Hinata's character greatly and for that I applaud Kishimoto for it. She actually contributed to the plot instead of being a background character. But, this does not make her a heroine. You can't just make a side character into a main character after 600+ chapters. It's bad writing and I refuse to believe any respectful author worth their hide would do that. After reading all 21 pages, it's disappointing that some members feel that because she brought Naruto out of his despair, she's automatically equivalent to a main character.

Regarding the NH implications this chapter has insinuated, I feel it is appropriate. It looked like it brought closure to Hinata's character. She got to hold his hand and stand by his side. She loves him and looks up to him. What fangirl wouldn't want that? Will this cement NH as canon? No not really. This chapter helps but it's really ambiguous. You can argue it from a purely platonic point of view because of Naruto.

As far as Sakura is concerned, she is still the heroine of the series. Her being shown in this chapter even if it was for a couple of panels is still better than not showing up at all. Now as far as the NS pairing goes, it's not looking good, and honestly you all should just give up. Nah I'm kidding with you, but really with the RtN movie and the development from the previous chapters over the series, you shouldn't worry about this bump so much.

Right now, we are at a critical moment in the pairing wars or at least it seems to be. Will NaruHina succeed or will NaruSaku overcome this large hurdle? Only Kishimoto knows...we as readers can only speculate. I will say this though...my ball is and will always be, in the NaruSaku court.

[Askia31]

There's no way you can call Sakura the heroine after this, that's just denial. No matter what Sakura does from now, IT will never top this moment. Hinata is the heroine deal with it

[PhenixElite]

There's no way you can call Sakura the heroine after this, that's just denial. No matter what Sakura does from now, IT will never top this moment. Hinata is the heroine deal with it

Ahhhh NO!