9679 replies to this topic

[Nate River]

Well, I wouldn't say that's the biggest argument against NaruHina. I mean considering he's the hero of the village, I'd like to think Hiashi would now be willing to allow Naruto into the clan. If saving the village, defeating Madara, bringing peace to the ninja world, and becoming Hokage still isn't enough to make Naruto worthy of marrying their heiress, I think the Hyuuga clan elders really need to take that ceremonial stick out of their bums.
I guess, if Hinata ends up with anyone, I think it's more likely to be an arranged marriage with Neji or some unnamed clan member. Although it seems like they both knew about Hinata's feelings for Naruto at the end of Part 1, and neither really seemed jealous, so I don't know. I'm guessing her husband's not going to be shown at the end, and we'll see her as the new head of the Hyuuga clan. That way she'll have improved herself and earned her family's respect, and her character won't be left completely unfulfilled in the epilogue.

By the way, I love the GS sig.

I'm not sure it's a matter of being "worthy." Do the Hyuuga even allow marriages outside the clan? We've never seen a Hyuuga not possess the Byakugan. However, this doesn't prove they don't exist. I think the problem is we know very little about how they function, at least, beyond the basics of the Main/Branch family distinctions and that Hiashi leads it. You can make assumptions based on how traditional Japanese clans operate, but that's all they'd be; assumptions.

Assuming they did allow such marriages , I think Naruto wouldn't have to worry about being worthy (at least the way I think you mean it) for three reasons. One would be he is the village savior and defeater of Pain. Two, if he decided to use it, his own lineage. Three, Hiashi himself. He recieves a rather negative portrayal prior to the fight with Neji, but afterwards he's apologetic and the circumstances of the entier ordeal are revealed. While not father of the year material, I was left with the impression that Hiashi isn't that bad a person. At the same time, this change is only shown in the context of Neji and his father and how far it goes after that is unknown, so I admit it's only an impression. But that being the last time we got a decent look into who Hiashi was, I don't know if I could see Kishimoto going back on that by making him a complete hardass when it comes to Hinata and Naruto.

Actually, I don't see Kishimoto touching on these things at all. While the clan dymanics make for interesting stories to tell, none of those stories have much relevance to the one Kishimoto is telling now, so their resolution isn't important. We may get a small blurb at the end because it matters to Neji, but that's all we should probably hope for.

I think Naruto's problem would be different. During the fight with Neji he talked about chaning the clan. If the clan is populated by a lot of people with a vested interest in seeing the status quo remain as it is (which it probably is), Naruto is the last person they would want anywhere near the clan, especially wed to a person who may be in line to lead it.

The other point of contention I have is the "arraganed" part of it. If Hiashi essentially has dictatorial control over the clan as its head then, maybe....but really, if the clan (in particular the Main branch) is full of people who want to see the status quo maintained (it's continued existence suggest there probably is; I have trouble believing an arrangement that basically enslaves Branch members existing solely out of tradition), I can only imagine the hell that will be raised by a marriage specifically designed to eliminate an institution they want to protect. If they are together, especially for that reason, it's because Hinata and Neji wanted it, not just because Hiashi or someone else did.

Second, its arrangement being someone other than Neji and Hinata, to me, flies in the face of the purpose behind its existence; i.e. being forced into a marriage when Neji's whole schtick prior to Naruto was predeterminated fate and that they are forced by a possible clan tradition into well...opposing a clan tradition.

Besides, Naruto being "accepted" into the family will not be why NaruHina does not happen. Wouldn't that reason for the pairing's failure actually reinforce the clans authority and its traditions while his inclusion and bucking of those strike against it?

If anything the "clan argument" against NaruHina would be the sheer irrelevance of a lot of these issues, Hinata's own irrelevance, and possible the fact that Neji can accomplish a lot of what Naruto could and, as a character, is better suited to that role.

EDIT: I don't mean to suggest NejiHina as a couple. I think they could still accomplish alot of those things without having to actually get together. I really don't know (nor care) who Hinata ends up with.

[Phantom_999]

The main issue is they're not suited for each other and have rarely interacted if fans are hoping for some random fall in love between them they are sadly mistaken I mean Can any one actually in real life expect someone they hardly know to just fall in love with them?

[Nate River]

The main issue is they're not suited for each other and have rarely interacted if fans are hoping for some random fall in love between them they are sadly mistaken I mean Can any one actually in real life expect someone they hardly know to just fall in love with them?

Of course, they can expect it. The reasonableness of those expectations are another matter.

And, yes, the most problematic issues for NaruHina have nothing to do with the Hyuuga clan itself.

[bthug]

I'm not sure if I've said this already in any earlier arguments, so I'm sorry if I did, but there's one rather big reason Hinata and Naruto hooking up would be implausible that nobody ever seems to bring up: Naruto would never be accepted in the Hyuga household. Now westerners may look down upon inter-family relations like cousin marriages, but they're legal and not all that uncommon in Japan (as far as I understand). All the Hyuga family members are probably marrying within the family to ensure the byakugan trait stays strong and doesn't get passed on to outsiders. Hinata is the heiress to the Hyuga family, meaning she'll probably end up in an arranged marriage. So unless Hinata is willing to be an outcast of her family (and end up being killed since the clan won't want HinataXNaruto babies running around with the byakugan), she'll never have sexual relations with a non-clan member.

That's more of an issue if Naruto was actually real.

[ShippudenGirl]

I think the last thing Hinata's father would want is for her to be with the Kyuubi host.

[Fyuria'sLeo]

Ya seeing how her clan is all uptight and really careful who they marry....in other news Hinata has no chance with Naruto that is all.

[Phantom_999]

Of course, they can expect it. The reasonableness of those expectations are another matter.

And, yes, the most problematic issues for NaruHina have nothing to do with the Hyuuga clan itself.

EH I was only saying that because I'm a bit conflicted about a girl I like right now

[Paptala]

I do not think Naruto will die.

He will however, most definitively ''fake die'' atleast once, where it seems like he's dead, and then some random bullsh** happens and he lives again, this could range all the way from the kyuubi/sakura/sasuke saving him somehow to Kakashi having copied chiyos technique, could even be itachi or Jiraiya or his Parents doing it, you just dont know.

I agree - I honestly think that the OVA could be some serious foreshadowing (I kind of saw of it like an opening, where it goes along with stuff that's currently happening/is going to happen in the story). Also, the fact that Iruka's last "words" to Naruto were to come back alive, I think a scene where everyone thinks Naruto has died is incredibly likely.

Hopefully Kishimoto will have the child be a girl.

I'm kind of thinking he will have Naruto and Sakura's first child be a girl, so it won't look too much like a repeat of Naruto's birth scene (before Madara shows up).

You have no idea how badly I want Naruto and Sakura to have a little girl, but to be honest given the shounen tradition, I think it's far more likely that the hero is going to end up with a son that looks just like him. At least Ed and Winry got a girl, though their first born was a son (who looked just like Ed, while the girl looked just like Winry).

I'm not sure it's a matter of being "worthy." Do the Hyuuga even allow marriages outside the clan? We've never seen a Hyuuga not possess the Byakugan. However, this doesn't prove they don't exist. I think the problem is we know very little about how they function, at least, beyond the basics of the Main/Branch family distinctions and that Hiashi leads it. You can make assumptions based on how traditional Japanese clans operate, but that's all they'd be; assumptions.

Assuming they did allow such marriages , I think Naruto wouldn't have to worry about being worthy (at least the way I think you mean it) for three reasons. One would be he is the village savior and defeater of Pain. Two, if he decided to use it, his own lineage. Three, Hiashi himself. He recieves a rather negative portrayal prior to the fight with Neji, but afterwards he's apologietic and the circumstances of the entier ordeal are revealed. While not father of the year material, I was left with the impression that Hiashi isn't that bad a person. At the same time, this change is only shown in the context of Neji and his father and how far it goes after that is unknown, so I admit it's only an impression. But that being the last time we got a decent look into Hiashi was, I don't know if I could see Kishimoto going back on that by making him a complete hardass when it comes to Hinata and Naruto.

Actually, I don't see Kishimoto touching on these things at all. While the clan dymanics make for interesting stories to tell, none of those stories have much relevance to the one Kishimoto is telling now, so their resolution isn't important. We may get a small blurb at the end because it matters to Neji, but that's all we should probably hope for.

I think Naruto's problem would be different. During the fight with Neji he talked about chaning the clan. If the clan is populated by a lot of people with a vested interest in seeing the status quo remain (which it probably is), Naruto is the last person they would want anywhere near the clan, especially wed to a person who may be in line to lead it.

The other point of contention I have is the "arraganed" part of it. If Hiashi essentially has dictatorial control over the clan as it's head then, maybe....but really, if the clan (in particular the Main branch) is full of people who want to see the status quo maintain (it's continued existance suggest there probably is; I have trouble believe an arrangment that basically enslave Branch members existing solely out of tradition), I can only imagine the hell that will be raised by a marriage specifically arranged to elimainte an institution they want to protect. If they are together, especially for that reason, it's because Hinata and Neji wanted it, not just because Hiashi or someone else did.

Second, it's arragement be someone other than Neji and Hinata, to me, flies in the face of the purpose behind it's existence; i.e. being forced into a marriage when Neji's whole schtick prior to Naruto was predeterminated fate and that they are forced by a possible clan tradition into well...opposing a clan tradition.

Besides, Naruto being "accepted" into the family will not be why NaruHina does not happen. Wouldn't that reason for the pairing's failure actually reinforce the clans authority and its traditions while his inclusion and bucking of those strike against it?

If anything the "clan argument" against NaruHina would be the sheer irrelevance of a lot of these issues, Hinata's own irrelevance, and possible the fact that Neji can accomplish alot of what Naruto could and, as a character, is better suited to that role.

EDIT: I don't mean to suggest NejiHina as a couple. I think they could still accomplish alot of those things without having to actually get together. I really don't know (nor care) who Hinata ends up with.

I agree with absolutely everything - brilliant post.

Honestly, what I feel hurts the NH pairing the most is the fact that it is all about Hinata - about Hinata's feelings and her struggle and her character. Where is Naruto in this relationship? The last development on Naruto's side in regards to Hinata was back in the chunin exams where he came to see her as a friend and an "awesome person" that was similar to him. But this is the same formula for all of his relationships in the series - there is a characteristic of each character that Naruto can empathize with, and therefore can understand them better and forges a bond with them through that understanding. Naruto's relationship with Hinata, looking at it purely from his side, is nothing unique or different than his relationship with other rookies such as Neji or Lee.

There is simply nothing more than friendship (and not even a particularly strong one at that) from Naruto's side, and that is what ultimately kills this pairing for me. How can the hero end up with someone that he barely interacts with and isn't that close of friends with to begin with when there is a girl that he's been gradually growing closer to over the entire course of the series, whom he has been in love with for the entirety of the manga, who has likewise given multiple and rather strong hints at reciprocation in return. It just doesn't make any sense to me, no matter how you look it.

[Gravenimage]

I agree - I honestly think that the OVA could be some serious foreshadowing (I kind of saw of it like an opening, where it goes along with stuff that's currently happening/is going to happen in the story). Also, the fact that Iruka's last "words" to Naruto were to come back alive, I think a scene where everyone thinks Naruto has died is incredibly likely.

You have no idea how badly I want Naruto and Sakura to have a little girl, but to be honest given the shounen tradition, I think it's far more likely that the hero is going to end up with a son that looks just like him. At least Ed and Winry got a girl, though their first born was a son (who looked just like Ed, while the girl looked just like Winry).

I agree with absolutely everything - brilliant post.

Honestly, what I feel hurts the NH pairing the most is the fact that it is all about Hinata - about Hinata's feelings and her struggle and her character. Where is Naruto in this relationship? The last development on Naruto's side in regards to Hinata was back in the chunin exams where he came to see her as a friend and an "awesome person" that was similar to him. But this is the same formula for all of his relationships in the series - there is a characteristic of each character that Naruto can empathize with, and therefore can understand them better and forges a bond with them through that understanding. Naruto's relationship with Hinata, looking at it purely from his side, is nothing unique or different than his relationship with other rookies such as Neji or Lee.

There is simply nothing more than friendship (and not even a particularly strong one at that) from Naruto's side, and that is what ultimately kills this pairing for me. How can the hero end up with someone that he barely interacts with and isn't that close of friends with to begin with when there is a girl that he's been gradually growing closer to over the entire course of the series, whom he has been in love with for the entirety of the manga, who has likewise given multiple and rather strong hints at reciprocation in return. It just doesn't make any sense to me, no matter how you look it.

Amen to that Paptala you always make great statements.

[merryGOflava]

speaking of the hyuuga clan.....when was hinata's father so uptight like i'm hearing? i think i missed a chapter...does anyone know when it shows hinata's father really strict on her and unfair? i also heard her father was mean...someplace else.

i just wanna know XD i feel left out.

[lav]

hmm, i never really understand NaruHina fans. they keep on insisting that the pairing will happen when in fact it the Naruto, Sakura and Hinata have a one- sided love. they just jump on conclusions which have no basis... lol.

[Codus N]

Assuming they did allow such marriages , I think Naruto wouldn't have to worry about being worthy (at least the way I think you mean it) for three reasons. One would be he is the village savior and defeater of Pain. Two, if he decided to use it, his own lineage. Three, Hiashi himself. He recieves a rather negative portrayal prior to the fight with Neji, but afterwards he's apologetic and the circumstances of the entier ordeal are revealed. While not father of the year material, I was left with the impression that Hiashi isn't that bad a person. At the same time, this change is only shown in the context of Neji and his father and how far it goes after that is unknown, so I admit it's only an impression. But that being the last time we got a decent look into who Hiashi was, I don't know if I could see Kishimoto going back on that by making him a complete hardass when it comes to Hinata and Naruto.

Regarding Hiashi, you're quite right about his character. And we also saw more of it when he fought his brother. It would seem that after 13 years or so, Hiashi still somewhat carries the guilt over his brother's death and the regrets of not being able to stop him. Even though it seems Neji has finally understood the truth and doesn't blame him, I think he's still beating himself up over it. However, it would seem the clan is slowly changing, if you look at his words carefully. But he still can't shake off the guilt. I'm really hoping there'll be some Neji-Hiashi-Hizashi interaction sometime in the future.

[bthug]

^^^^^^I wish I could "like" that comment because Harry and Hermione would have been perfect.

[Fyuria'sLeo]

Ugh harry potter pissed me off so much ( sorry for language) Harry and Hermione had the most developement ever.

[Paptala]

Khm...Harry Potter..khm.

Only Harry was never stated to be in love with Hermione, whereas it was reiterated time and again that Naruto holds romantic feelings for Sakura.

Harry's feelings for Ginny came out of nowhere, but he never had anyone that he was seriously interested in before. Just like with Goku and Chichi - Goku had barely interacted with Chichi, but ended up with her too - but there was never anyone else that he had romantic feelings for before that.

Edited by Paptala, 29 June 2011 - 01:23 PM.

[Jenskott]

Harry's feelings for Ginny came out of nowhere, but he never had anyone that he was seriously interested in before. Just like with Goku and Chichi - Goku had barely interacted with Chichi, but ended up with her too - but there was never anyone else that he had romantic feelings for before that.

Since we are talking about Toriyama... in one of the last volumes of Dr. Slump (Toriyama's first sucessful and popular series), he mentions he doesn't like writing romance but his editor did, so he was forced to pair up several characters (he didn't force Toriyama to switch pairings. Toriyama had not planned pair them up at all. So getting them together didn't alter his plotline at all)... And another editor was bugging him about get Son Goku and Bulma together (Toriyama wrote these lines right when he was starting Dragon Ball) even though he strongly disliked the idea (and how you can see, his editor couldn't force him to change his story).

So it explains why romantic couples have barely any build-up and development in Toriyama's mangas. He doesn't feel comfortable doing it, so it only happens.

[Gravenimage]

Ron and Hermoine was obvious they are just like Naruto and Sakura when it came to the" brother and sister relationship" and look they got together I saw Harry and Hermoine like best friends but there was never any romantic hints between them.

[naruto-z]

In reality...JK Rowling actually had quite a bit of development between Ron and Hermione. To be honest, most if not all readers were biased and just straight thought Harry and Hermione were going to be a couple (me included)..but with rereading the books, clear development between Ron and Hermione were noticeable. And though Harry's feeling's for Ginny were sudden, Ginny's were also very well developed. JK Rowling expressed her feelings even during Chamber of Secrets.

[Anguyen92]

All right, I'm sorry, but I'm gonna take away from the Harry Potter stuff with this question? How would you guys feel if Sakura was the one that killed Sasuke instead of Naruto (got the question from a detail in a so-so fanfiction), if the dude can not be saved in anyway shape or form?

Edited by anguyen92, 29 June 2011 - 02:45 PM.

[Darth Krypt]

All right, I'm sorry, but I'm gonna take away from the Harry Potter stuff with this question? How would you guys feel if Sakura was the one that killed Sasuke instead of Naruto (got the question from a detail in a so-so fanfiction)?

Never gonna happen. Unless you want Naruto to hate Sakura. If that happens I think NS will be ruined. Who would go for the girl who killed someone you're trying to save desperately?