749 replies to this topic

[NeonRanger]

I don't think they care, otherwise NS/SK would have been canon. Honestly the way SP had treated Sakura and Sasuke from the anime alone, you can see that they don't like these characters. Then you have editors/assistants who don't like Sakura. Remember in JF Kishi already mentioned how the editors tried to push him into making Hinata the new heroine. If push come to shove, if Kishi was that much of a pushover, the haters probably would have succeeded in killing Sakura off.

 

Honestly it isn't just popularity, it was the fact that his own people hated her too, and Kishi stop caring as well and began to hate her as well, and decided that she's not the type for Naruto. Or Sasuke, after Gaiden.

[rocci]

Actually sasuke did care about naruto, Eventhought it's not on the same level with itachi and his family.
So, one way or another, it's mutual.

@neonranger
Pika chika is a ss shipper. So her saying thing like that is laughable considering how much toxic ss have become. Hashimada has not much different, they just more open since you can't dragging it for flashback.

Oh, I think it's not editor but the assistant who doesn't like sakura.

@james
Like I said I know how bad kishi as a writer.

[TouKen4Life3g]

He cares, but his action keeps overshadowing. Plus, we don't need the protagonist to be that obsess.

Anyway, I agree to my own statement. If it had a follow up that helped her, though that confession was a mess, it could have balance it out more or less. That said it only made it much worse and arguably the final nail. That line from Sakura is absolutely terrible. Leaving them and her standing back due to uselessness.

[Namikaze Clan]

Well, at least her actions in the Summit Arc weren't as bad as her actions in 693.  Now THAT was a disaster

[TouKen4Life3g]

Well, at least her actions in the Summit Arc weren't as bad as her actions in 693.  Now THAT was a disaster

That was a new level of bad that I think it should be forbidden.

[TouKen4Life3g]

Statement: The story of rescuing Sasuke shouldn't be the main focus of Naruto (character and/or series).

 

Agree or disagree?

Edited by TouKen4Life3g, 09 March 2016 - 11:44 PM.

[VanitasDS76491]

Statement: The story of rescuing Sasuke shouldn't be the main focus of Naruto (character and/or series).

 

Agree or disagree?

Agreed cause he was not worth saving and all it did was waste time and ruin Naruto and Sakura's character.

 

[Namikaze Clan]

Statement: The story of rescuing Sasuke shouldn't be the main focus of Naruto (character and/or series).
 
Agree or disagree?

Agree 100%. After the Sasuke and Sai arc, both Naruto and Sasuke should have understood that they should put their time and energy into saving someone who didnt want to be saved. Especially after Orochimaru's defeat they should have left him alone and just let him pursue his own goals.

[Bail o' Lies]

Returning Sasuke to the villages should have been one of their goal but it shouldn't have been THE goal as it seemed in the story. Sakura and Naruto focus should have been defeating the Akatsuki first. Since it was established in the first arc of part 2 that their goal was to eventually capture Naruto and then kill him by extracting Kurama. So they could use it for their evil purposes. It doesn't matter if Sasuke returns to the village if Naruto is killed by the Akatsuki. Naruto becoming Hokage is the end goal of the series but that's for later on in the plot after the Akatsuki are defeated, and maybe after Sasuke is returned.

 

To be honest what was the point of all the Sasuke focus in Part 2? Think about it. What it look like Kishi was doing was paralleling Sasuke journey with Naruto and their revelation that the ninja system is corrupt and needs to be reformed (at least by the war arc). Sasuke case through revolution which will make him the supreme power of the world forcing everyone to submit to him, and in Naruto's case internal reform by making everyone work together to fix the system. In theory that what they were going on about. But what's the point? The entire story is setting it up that whatever plan Sasuke thinks up is wrong and Naruto's plan is right. We know this since the end of part one that when Naruto finally drags Sasuke back to the village. It will be after he made Sasuke submits to him, and his ideals. So what's the point of us seeing Sasuke's journey in such detail? The only reason to actually have it in the story is for both of them were to make their own ideas about how to reform the ninja system and then come together and combine their ideas. Which doesn't happen. Naruto wins and then Sasuke goes on a journey to find himself. As such the entire Sasuke focus is pointless to the story and is just Sasuke fan baiting filler.

 

And if anyone thinks using the "oh well he starts working in the shadows like he planned" by the last/gaiden/bolt movie. No. That doesn't work. Because the final battle was about their ideals and ideas of reform. So in chapter 698 when he saying he lost. He is submitting to Naruto's plan and ideals. He didn't go oh and I will do "the shadow of the ninja" while you be "the face of reform". In chapter 699 he said he was going on a journey to find himself meaning he not continuing with his original plan. But he is going on a journey to find himself, to discover what he should do with his life. So what he's doing in those stories are his "new" plan.

Edited by Bail o' Lies, 10 March 2016 - 08:03 AM.

[NeonRanger]

I'm in the middle. I don't mind the Sasuke rescue plot, but my problem was how the plot linger away from Naruto and became a Uchiha manga. I know more in depth analysis and background about Itachi, Madara and Shisui and the overall Uchiha past than the main character himself. We are currently in a filler arc explaining Itachi's ordeal in even more depth. 

 

I would have have been done with the Sasuke rescue plot if it only focused more on Naruto and his struggles and his reason on why saving Sasuke is so important to him than Kishi digging himself even deeper as to why Sasuke choose to runaway and be anti-Leaf. It would have lesson the amount of Sasuke apologists and Kishi could have made the plot simple.

Edited by NeonRanger, 10 March 2016 - 01:46 AM.

[James S Cassidy]

I don't think they care, otherwise NS/SK would have been canon. Honestly the way SP had treated Sakura and Sasuke from the anime alone, you can see that they don't like these characters. Then you have editors/assistants who don't like Sakura. Remember in JF Kishi already mentioned how the editors tried to push him into making Hinata the new heroine. If push come to shove, if Kishi was that much of a pushover, the haters probably would have succeeded in killing Sakura off.

 

Honestly it isn't just popularity, it was the fact that his own people hated her too, and Kishi stop caring as well and began to hate her as well, and decided that she's not the type for Naruto. Or Sasuke, after Gaiden.

Then everything is pointless....everything was pointless. Naruto, Sasuke, Sakura, Rock Lee, Gaara, and every character who wasn't Hinata was pointless and Kishimoto is the biggest hypocritical writer in the entire world. And this wasn't even because he liked Hinata. In fact, he probably hated the kitten.

You all want to talk about what he cared about, what passion he had, who was his favorite.....and then you realize....does it even matter now? He has no favorite, he had no passion, and he cared about nothing. If there was anything, it died after the Pein Arc. Whatever is remaining was just him being bullied and pushed around and being forced...by Hinata's kittenry fanclub.

So now, with this new enlightenment, people need to stop saying "it was because of popularity" or it was "because it was to suit the western fanbase" or "because the fans demanded it." Because if popularity means nothing, then this has no affect on why the ending became what it did. The whole "I saw this youtube video" was probably not him actually saying that, but what he was told to say. Kishimoto was nothing more than a puppet with his assistant and the corporations hands up his ass to make him sing and dance like a Japanese Kermit the Frog.

If he really did actually listen to the fanbase, Neji wouldn't be dead, Kakashi wouldn't have been pushed aside, and Sasuke and Naruto wouldn't have been treated like garbage. You can see it when he half-assed the end and just wanted out with making such a huge timeskip and then letting everyone else write the story. Bolt the movie, despite him saying was his magnum opus or something, he put no passion in it. There was nothing left. All he did....all he wanted to show was Sasuke and Naruto fighting side by side as brothers. That is probably the only thing he wanted because he lost all control in everything else.

And the fandom is only left with one last question...."What happened?"

This whole thread is pointless because every statement on whether something was "worthwhile" or not can be answered with one simple phase. "No and who cares anymore?" That is what Naruto can be summarized. "What is Naruto's plot?" Who cares anymore? Naruto: How Hinata got her way because she is a spoiled brat just like her fandom.
 

 

@james
Like I said I know how bad kishi as a writer.

No...you don't. You don't know anything at this point. No one knows anything at this point. That's the problem.

Good or bad writing...if he had no passion in it regardless it doesn't matter how good he really was....no passion means no means to put in your best work. No reason to put your effort into it.

Tell me, why would or should a writer put their best effort into something that the fans don't even appreciate anymore? The fans that look too superficial in the story and only cared about the things that really shouldn't have been cared about. 

Is that bad writing or lack of trying?

Fandoms....are the worst things to ever happen.

Edited by James S Cassidy, 10 March 2016 - 01:49 AM.

[MangaReader]

Damn it 4Life... Hmm, this one requires a little thought for different reasons. Before I give my answer, I guess I put a little discussion that could lead me to my final judgement. 

 

Why rescue Sasuke, a guy who didn't want to be saved and was still capable of making his own decisions? Well other then Naruto trying to get laid, lol, the real answer was he couldn't sit back and watch his friend and blood brother descend into madness and evil. While I don't agree with Kishimoto stating Sasuke was pure, I highly doubt he was evil either. He's your typical jerk who happens to also have an incredible talent and thinks highly of himself. It took my the longest time, but I think Sasuke grew on me for the purpose that he was Naruto's opposite. That ultimately makes for an interesting albeit cliche rival we read about in shonen manga. Initially he was a semi likeable character because he was capable of admitting Naruto's growing success and I actually didn't mind when he convert to his rage about Naruto getting stronger while he remained relatively unchanged after awhile. Shippuden turned him in a fully fledged a**hole which pretty much put a dent in my ideal rival, but, he did become more menacing. I might be alone in this, but Sasuke becoming a "villain" wasn't the way I wanted for characters to change their opinions of him, aka Sakura's love for him. Rather, I just wanted Naruto unselfish nature to open people's eyes that he's not the type of troublemaker/monster people labelled him as and the personality he took on growing up because of it. I think Naruto put it best, or rather Kishimoto wrote it best, that had things gone differently, Naruto very easily could have been in Sasuke's shoes and Sasuke in his, representing the opposite sides of the same coin. The Pain arc into the Summit arc was working perfectly until the 4th Ninja War kittened everything up by literally changing everything set up in that arc. 

 

The Sharingan being the most haxious technique/blood trait ever introduced in fiction is probably Sasuke's biggest calling card to coolness and biggest reason to be hated. I don't mind a genius, but when your eyes are the biggest reason for that, then things get complicated. Lets also not forget the BS excuse Kishimoto concocted with these so called eyes causing Uchiha to go insane when they lose their loved ones. I don't need a realistic answer, but even for fiction, that seems highly illogical. But I'm getting well off topic.

 

I'm gonna say I disagree considering Sasuke was still a huge reason Naruto became who he did throughout the story (at least the story we liked). That being said, I wish their stories intertwined for different purposes. Their goals were quite literally nothing a like... maybe Kishimoto should have saved Itachi for towards the end of the story instead of the freak'in middle of it 

[rocci]

@mangareader
Naruto & sasuke dynamic could be like guts and Griffith with sasuke as the anti hero version of Griffith.
This is why I am not against team taka nor sai & Yamato since their presence could enrich the main characters.
I don't hate his character nor did I like it, but I acknowledge the importance of his character to the story. So I agree with you.

I just disagree when sasuke took over the entire of manga to the point we can change the title to sasuke and it will work. Not even Griffith could do that.

I think what kishi mean by pure is naive like child. But yeah I don't think kishi could justify it. And kishi can't write genius character.

[Nostradamus]

Then everything is pointless....everything was pointless. Naruto, Sasuke, Sakura, Rock Lee, Gaara, and every character who wasn't Hinata was pointless and Kishimoto is the biggest hypocritical writer in the entire world. And this wasn't even because he liked Hinata. In fact, he probably hated the kitten.

You all want to talk about what he cared about, what passion he had, who was his favorite.....and then you realize....does it even matter now? He has no favorite, he had no passion, and he cared about nothing. If there was anything, it died after the Pein Arc. Whatever is remaining was just him being bullied and pushed around and being forced...by Hinata's kittenry fanclub.

So now, with this new enlightenment, people need to stop saying "it was because of popularity" or it was "because it was to suit the western fanbase" or "because the fans demanded it." Because if popularity means nothing, then this has no affect on why the ending became what it did. The whole "I saw this youtube video" was probably not him actually saying that, but what he was told to say. Kishimoto was nothing more than a puppet with his assistant and the corporations hands up his ass to make him sing and dance like a Japanese Kermit the Frog.

If he really did actually listen to the fanbase, Neji wouldn't be dead, Kakashi wouldn't have been pushed aside, and Sasuke and Naruto wouldn't have been treated like garbage. You can see it when he half-assed the end and just wanted out with making such a huge timeskip and then letting everyone else write the story. Bolt the movie, despite him saying was his magnum opus or something, he put no passion in it. There was nothing left. All he did....all he wanted to show was Sasuke and Naruto fighting side by side as brothers. That is probably the only thing he wanted because he lost all control in everything else.

And the fandom is only left with one last question...."What happened?"

This whole thread is pointless because every statement on whether something was "worthwhile" or not can be answered with one simple phase. "No and who cares anymore?" That is what Naruto can be summarized. "What is Naruto's plot?" Who cares anymore? Naruto: How Hinata got her way because she is a spoiled brat just like her fandom.
 

 

No...you don't. You don't know anything at this point. No one knows anything at this point. That's the problem.

Good or bad writing...if he had no passion in it regardless it doesn't matter how good he really was....no passion means no means to put in your best work. No reason to put your effort into it.

Tell me, why would or should a writer put their best effort into something that the fans don't even appreciate anymore? The fans that look too superficial in the story and only cared about the things that really shouldn't have been cared about. 

Is that bad writing or lack of trying?

Fandoms....are the worst things to ever happen.

Spot on. As usual.

[Namikaze Clan]

@mangareader:That was part of the problem. Once Itatchi was dead, Sasuke's storyline came to an abrupt end so Kishi had to somehow cram him into the future plotlines. He should have planned Sasuke's character arc ahead and have a proper parallel to Naruto's story

[Nate River]

thread derailed slightly
 
to the original question.
 
 
Disagree the land of iron arc much  like the rest of the manga had great potential for character development for Sakura and should have been used as a smalls tumble in NaruSakus relationship that they then recover from and become stronger then ever.

I agree with you on this. The War Arc was the worst. 693 is that bad. It's a giant reset button on her character as she repeats her lowest. What was the point of her character journey only to end up right back where it started? 500+ chapters only to be where we were in 181? What the hell?
 

 

what trully irks me about this scene in particular is that its conclusion in the ending gives meat to Haters arguments about Sakura being manipulative and using Naruto. we know this is false but with the ending now impossible to dispute.

She did try to manipulate his feelings. This is true whether she held feelings or not. It's true even if it ends NS. Even if she was madly in love withe him and only him, the timing of the confession clearly indicates it wasn't being done for it's own sake. She was trying to use his feelings to get him to take a course of action that she desired. It was for his own safety, but, at it's core, she was using them to get him to do something she wanted him to do. It's manipulation regardless of whether her feelings were genuine.

I do disagree that it makes her this horrible person though,

She knew simply saying, you don't have to after him, it's dangerous wouldn't cut. Moreover, because of what Sai said to her she felt the reason he was so dedicated was POAL. I think she also believes (correctly), that saying I free you from that, wouldn't do it. Because of Sai, she believed he was killing himself because of his feelings for her and that it was rooted in what he believes she wanted. This obviously turned out to be incorrect, but given how the evens unfolded for her it's not an unreasonable belief.

Given what she believes his motivating factor is, she was wanted to free him from that promise. I can't say this was the best way to do it, but as I said, simply saying your free was't going to accomplish that. Then again, I cannot think of a good way that would also have been effective.

It's irritating to me that people let their pairing preference shut down their empathy on this. It's not this horrible thing that blights her character. It's an entirely human thing to do.

Statement: The story of rescuing Sasuke shouldn't be the main focus of Naruto (character and/or series).

Agree or disagree?

Neither. It's not the only direction it could have taken, but the choice in and of itself isn't bad. What's bad is the horrid execution of that idea, particularly Sasuke's plot shied in Part 2.

[TouKen4Life3g]

You know how can you tell Sasuke is the main focus?

When Pain or of nowhere tell Naruto that he can't save Sasuke. What in the world it has to do with the battle they're in? The most random dialogue exchange ever.

[Namikaze Clan]

You know how can you tell Sasuke is the main focus?

When Pain or of nowhere tell Naruto that he can't save Sasuke. What in the world it has to do with the battle they're in? The most random dialogue exchange ever.

I think he was just saying that to remind Naruto how powerless he was to change the ninja system if he couldnt even save his friend

[TouKen4Life3g]

I think he was just saying that to remind Naruto how powerless he was to change the ninja system if he couldnt even save his friend

But this is Pain. He's like one of the few last people to even ask that. What business he even has with Sasuke? He never associate with him, no connection, not even seen around him. It's like that's really not needed at all. It would have been more meaningful if he was talking about Jiraiya. Instead, Sasuke must be every-*******-where.

It doesn't help that fighting Kakuzu was made to make Naruto to think he's strong to save Sasuke instead of not just that. It has to be ONLY him.

Edited by TouKen4Life3g, 10 March 2016 - 04:15 AM.

[TouKen4Life3g]

How does he even know that? What? Naruto is that bland to know him easy?