591 replies to this topic

[luffyq1]

You know what's really interesting?

Noone ever noticed that we have this same problems in our own comic books as well and worse still when characters will lampshade it only to make the same mistake as them.

Take example. Batman and Superman.

Now Superman is idealist when it comes to living beings. He sort of believes almost everyone is capable of being good no matter how many times they have tried to kill him or kill the people he loved. This has caused many people, including Batman, to call him the blue boy scout. What's ironically funny about this is is that Batman is somewhat the same way. He never kills people either despite how many times the bad guy threatens his life or the life of his loved ones. He has even lost people when the enemies killed them.

The Joker is a great example of this as Joker has killed hundreds of people in his career alone and yet, Batman never kills him. He just sends him back to jail or the asylum for rehabilitation that really doesn't work. Joker ends up escaping again and killing more people. You'd think they'd just give him the electric chair already.

So how can Batman accuse Superman of such things when he himself doesn't even do it? I could argue Batman could have saved alot of lives by just snapping Joker's neck.
 

He can accuse Superman of the same things because he's batman.

 

Hey James have you've watched under the red hood? If so, you'll notice that Jason Todd brings up the same issue and Batgod replies with a weak "fighting the urge to kill" line LOL.

[Gojira]

You said he didn't even have to, yet he did anyway. But I'd like to know what's your point exactly? I can name dozens of characters that he's treated better than Sakura.

My point is that Karin is the only female treated better than Sakura....except for his dead mother and maybe that old cat lady back in the Hunt for Itachi arc.

[luffyq1]

My point is that Karin is the only female treated better than Sakura....except for his dead mother and maybe that old cat lady back in the Hunt for Itachi arc.

Which doesn't make her exclusive. And Sasuke's standards of better treatment isn't something to write home about.

[Gojira]

Which doesn't make her exclusive. And Sasuke's standards of better treatment isn't something to write home about.

It kind of does if its the only love interest. Hell with Karin there actually were moments where he went OOC for her.

 

Never said it was, but that's more a problem of him being a terrible character in general not just in terms of pairing.

Edited by Pepsi, 04 July 2014 - 02:38 AM.

[luffyq1]

It kind of does if its the only love interest. 

 

Never said it was, but that's more a problem of him being a terrible character in general not just in terms of pairing.

It kind of doesn't. It takes two to tangle and there's not a single panel of Sasuke having romantic interest for Karin, or for anyone for that matter.

[Gojira]

It kind of doesn't. It takes two to tangle and there's not a single panel of Sasuke having romantic interest for Karin, or for anyone for that matter.

Well the hints have been more subtle but that doesn't mean they're not there. When has Sasuke ever expressed anything ever. Him begging for her forgiveness seems like one hell of a point there, he had absolutely no reason to do so since she was of no real use to him and he could have just told her to kitten off like he did to everyone else.

[luffyq1]

Well the hints have been more subtle but that doesn't mean they're not there.

If by hints you mean speculation and theories, then sure. More smoke and mirrors for the fandom.
 

When has Sasuke ever expressed anything ever.

Itachi, team 7, mom and dad.
 

Him begging for her forgiveness seems like one hell of a point there, he had absolutely no reason to do so since she was of no real use to him and he could have just told her to kitten off like he did to everyone else.

If by begging you mean a half-assed apology, then sure. lol it speaks volumes of Karin's character that she easily accepted it, but w/e.

[James S Cassidy]

He can accuse Superman of the same things because he's batman.

 

Hey James have you've watched under the red hood? If so, you'll notice that Jason Todd brings up the same issue and Batgod replies with a weak "fighting the urge to kill" line LOL.

I've read alot of stories from the DC universe and Under the Red Hood is a good one. So is The Killing Joke. Alot of times people bring up to the heroes on why they don't just kill the villains and potentially saving hundreds of lives. There are alot of answers to that question that have been given.

I think Superman vs the Elite is a real answer to why good guys don't kill. If anyone has seen this movie or read the comic, Superman pretends to kill people to scare the crap out of the villain with his immense power. In truth, the villains would be scared of a good guy willing to kill so easily as well.



Superman's logic on why he doesn't kill is rather interesting in that he doesn't want to be the hero people are afraid of. Instead, he wants people to see him as the protector that they can count on. Only villains should fear Superman, not the good guys.

 

Their code of honor or anything is always challenged to the core. Batman is always challenged because well, no kill as a normal guy isn't easy. If he was supernatural, maybe. But yeah, it brings harm to outside than good inside.

Batman has shown, in his own right, to be able to kill the villains his fights with relative ease, but he always chooses to immobolise, not kill. Even if he is only a human at pique phsyical condition, he still chooses not to kill despite having the upperhand against most of the villains he fights. It's really a choice, not a power issue here.

Actually people with power would be more inclined to take over the world and kill those who stand in his way because nothing could stop them from doing it, but Superman doesn't see himself as a god who makes those choices. You don't want to mess with a bloodthirsty Superman.

I feel this is the same with Naruto, but to a lesser degree. Naruto doesn't so much forgive as he doesn't "stoop to their level" of thinking. He has the power to basically kill anyone he wants, but he doesn't want to. He could have easily killed Pein, but he didn't. All that power from the Nine-tails is enough to flatten a good 90% of the Ninja he has ever faced, but more often than not he doesn't like to just kill people.

Vash is the same way, but with Vash people actually lampshade it and call him stupid for not killing people.

Maybe that is the difference. Maybe people need to question why he doesn't jsut flat out kill people when it could be so easy for him and him give that response like "I am not you and I am not god."

Edited by James S Cassidy, 04 July 2014 - 03:53 AM.

[Gojira]

If by hints you mean speculation and theories, then sure. More smoke and mirrors for the fandom.
 

Itachi, team 7, mom and dad.
 

If by begging you mean a half-assed apology, then sure. lol it speaks volumes of Karin's character that she easily accepted it, but w/e.

1. No that would imply that there was nothing to back that up. 

 

2. I wasn't talking about to who I was talking about expressing any outward emotion to what he was feeling. 

 

3. No from what I heard the words he used in the original raw was beyond a simple apology he was begging for forgiveness

 

 

On a separate note I have no idea where people get the miconception that Superman doesn't kill his enemies. He's killed Bizarro, Metallo, Zod, Darkseid, Doomsday Faora and Braniac and all of these people he has killed more than once. 

Edited by Pepsi, 04 July 2014 - 03:07 AM.

[luffyq1]

1. No that would imply that there was nothing to back that up.

And there isn't. Fans love to compare and contrast between Karin and the others. But guess what? Sasuke holds Itachi on a higher plateau than any character in the Narutoverse.
 

2. I wasn't talking about to who I was talking about expressing any outward emotion to what he was feeling.

And he has.
 

3. No from what I heard the words he used in the original raw was beyond a simple apology he was begging for forgiveness

He sure was begging, you can tell by his nonchalant expression. lol

[luffyq1]

I've read alot of stories from the DC universe and Under the Red Hood is a good one. So is The Killing Joke. Alot of times people bring up to the heroes on why they don't get kill the villains and potentially saving hundreds of lives. There are alot of answers to that questions that have been given.

I think Superman vs the Elite is a real answer to why good guys don't kill. If anyone has seen this movie or read the comic, Superman pretends to kill people to scare the crap out of the villain with his immense power. In truth, the villains would be scared of a good guy willing to kill so easily as well.



Superman's logic on why he doesn't kill is rather interesting in that he doesn't want to be the hero people are afraid of. Instead, he wants people to see him as the protector that they can count on. Only villains should fear Superman, not the good guys.

 

Batman has shown, in his own right, to be able to kill the villains his fights with relative ease, but he always chooses to immobolise, not kill. Even if he is only a human at pique phsyical, he still chooses not the kill despite having the upperhand against most of the villains he fights. It's really a choice, not a power issue here.

Actually with power would be more inclined to take over the world and kill those who stand in his way because nothing could stop them from doing it, but Superman doesn't see himself as a god who makes those choices. You don't want to mess with a bloodthirsty Superman.

I feel this is the same with Naruto, but to a lesser degree. Naruto doesn't so much forgive as he doesn't "stoop to their level" of thinking. He has the power to basically kill anyone he wants, but he doesn't want to. He could have easily killed Pein, but he didn't All that power from the Nine-tails is enough to flatten a good 90% of the Ninja he has ever faced, but more often than not he doesn't like to just kill people.

Vash is the same way, but with Vash people actually lampshade it and call him stupid for not killing people.

Maybe that is the difference. Maybe people need to question why he doesn't jsut flat out kill people when it could be so easy for him.

Got that on blu-ray and I absolutely loved it. And I'm glad you pointed out his reasoning, it's why he's my favorite dc character.

[Gojira]

And there isn't. Fans love to compare and contrast between Karin and the others. But guess what? Sasuke holds Itachi on a higher plateau than any character in the Narutoverse.
 

And he has.
 

He sure was begging, you can tell by his nonchalant expression. lol

1. And Lee puts Gai on the same plateau doesn't really mean anything pairing wise 

 

2. The last time he expressed any emotion that wasn't emo behavior was when he was 8 and that's when his sob story began. 

 

3. Hard to tell...considering you can't even see his face when he made that response. 

[James S Cassidy]

Got that on blu-ray and I absolutely loved it. And I'm glad you pointed out his reasoning, it's why he's my favorite dc character.

Same here. Superman has always been my favorite. ^_^

When his stories are actually written by capable writers, Superman is amazing.

One of my most favorite Superman moment is in the comic "The Gift" which is Action Comics #783 he says this to the villains.

"This is where I’m supposed to haul you in and lock you up… But something has to change, doesn’t it? It just has to… Do you realize how powerful those two words are, second chance? I don’t think there’s a greater gift you can give to someone. A second chance in life. So… I’m offering you a second chance. Put the past in a box and take my hand in friendship. It won’t be easy, and I’m not ignoring what brought us here in the first place, but frankly, I can’t do anything about any of that.

The past is hard and cold and unforgiving. I can only change the future… and so can you. You have such… power. Gifts. Do you know what you could accomplish if you just tried? You could make the world beautiful. You could change everything.

So that’s the deal. One-time offer. Take my hand. Let me help you. Let’s make a better world. What do you say?”

And one villain actually does change because of it.
 

Edited by James S Cassidy, 04 July 2014 - 03:54 AM.

[luffyq1]

1. And Lee puts Gai on the same plateau doesn't really mean anything pairing wise

There's an obvious difference, though. Is Sasuke in love with Karin? No. Is Lee in love with Sakura? Yes. With Sasuke it's an open field on who can capture his affection the most, platonically of course. Karin ain't the front runner.
 

2. The last time he expressed any emotion that wasn't emo behavior was when he was 8 and that's when his sob story began.

LOL dude, where are you getting this from? He's expressed emotion exclusively for Itachi,Naruto and Team 7.
 

3. Hard to tell...considering you can't even see his face when he made that response.

The short dialogue, the atmosphere of the panel and the body language is pretty telling.

[Silentraider52]

The mess he's trying to clean up is actually getting worse. How did Madara get his second eye? From Obito, which made Madara even more powerful to make way for Kaguya. What consequence are you talking about? Please don't tell me you're referring to his inevitable death, because that is more of a cop out than an actual consequence. He won't have to live with the infamous labeling. So he didn't get his wish fulfilled of being with Rin? Cry me a river. Poor justification to destroy hundreds of people's lives.

 

I don't feel sad for Obito because of a couple of reasons: 

 

1. Had tryouts for Akatsuki members, which goes around the world killing people.

 

2. Killed Naruto's mom and dad, which resulted in a ruined childhood for Naruto.

 

3. Tried to blow up Naruto just mere seconds after he was born.

 

4. Unleashed the Kyuubi, which killed Iruka's parents.

 

5. Killed Neji right in front of him just to teach Naruto a lesson.

 

I'm sure there is a lot more but that's what comes to my mind.

 

And about a couple of chapters later you feel sad for him? I'm surprised after all of this Naruto quickly forgave this scumbag.

I agree with you because Obito became a monster in almost every sense of the word. Not that my opinion matters but I wouldn't never forgive him for everything he's done, no matter what he does to atone for his sins. As we all know and what everyone's been saying, he ruined so many lives (especially Naruto's), killed so many people, and caused so much damage that he should never be forgiven and always be remembered by nearly everyone as a mass murdering monster.

 

Then again, I disagree with you that we shouldn't feel sympathy for him. Even though I couldn't forgive him for what he's done, he can still have my sympathy. If only but a little. He lost his parents when he was incredibly young, he nearly got crushed to death when he was saving his best friend and then watched his best friend (even if he found out the reasons behind it) kill the one girl he loved most. The one person that made him feel like it was worth living every day. Yes. Nothing justifies what he did in order to create a massive lie of an illusion to see her again, and he should be greatly punished for it, but it's all he had left in a world that, in his mind, was utterly worthless. It's sort of the idea that he had nothing left to lose but everything to gain. I'm not defending him, but he does have my sympathy for what at least drove him.

 

Even though he deserves more punishment for his actions, think about the situation he's in now. Despite all of the time that was spent and all of the damage he's caused to fulfill the Eye of the Moon Plan, Obito was beaten right before he succeeded and his dream was crushed at his feet. Then he was forced to revive Madara and then had his dying body be used like a puppet by Black Zetsu. Then even after saving Naruto's life and gave him the chakra of the remaining tailed beasts, he's captured by Madara who goes to tell Obito that he was made into Madara's pawn by having Rin's death set up which meant he'd been working in the stead of a man who was responsible for his loss and caused him to become a monster. Finally, he's used like a puppet by Black Zetsu again and even though he's alive now, he's essentially living on borrowed time.

 

He doesn't deserve forgiveness and deserves more punishment, but he's been punished quite a bit as it is and it doesn't mean he can't have someone's sympathy. Also, despite what he's done, allow the poor bas***d to use what time he has left to atone for what he's done, even if it's miniscule in comparison.

 

Also, no offense luffy, but ever since I've come to this forum site (which wasn't that long ago), you always seem to be be either negative or have a chip on your shoulder. So please, lighten up a little.

[AzureWaters]

I should have expected Kishi to put up a search party for Sasuke as soon as he was thrown into that desert. I find it ridiculous-- why have him lost in the first place if he's going to be saved within a few chapters. Oh well. Let's hope he manages to at least pass out from heat stroke?

Edited by AzureWaters, 04 July 2014 - 05:02 AM.

[Gojira]

I should have expected Kishi to put up a search party for Sasuke as soon as he was thrown into that desert. I find it ridiculous-- why have him lost in the first place if he's going to be saved within a few chapters. Oh well. Let's hope he manages to at least pass out from heat stroke?

I just accept the fact that Sasuke is apparently the most important and beloved character in the universe for whatever reason, even in the entire universe is he the popular kid in school literally everyone talks about how great he is and constantly tries to get him to come to their side. 

[luffyq1]

I agree with you because Obito became a monster in almost every sense of the word. Not that my opinion matters but I wouldn't never forgive him for everything he's done, no matter what he does to atone for his sins. As we all know and what everyone's been saying, he ruined so many lives (especially Naruto's), killed so many people, and caused so much damage that he should never be forgiven and always be remembered by nearly everyone as a mass murdering monster.

Exactly. If only he can survive this war and be thrown in jail to rot away. But you know Kishi.
 

Then again, I disagree with you that we shouldn't feel sympathy for him. Even though I couldn't forgive him for what he's done, he can still have my sympathy. If only but a little. He lost his parents when he was incredibly young, he nearly got crushed to death when he was saving his best friend and then watched his best friend (even if he found out the reasons behind it) kill the one girl he loved most. The one person that made him feel like it was worth living every day. Yes. Nothing justifies what he did in order to create a massive lie of an illusion to see her again, and he should be greatly punished for it, but it's all he had left in a world that, in his mind, was utterly worthless. It's sort of the idea that he had nothing left to lose but everything to gain. I'm not defending him, but he does have my sympathy for what at least drove him.

But here's the thing, Naruto didn't have a family because of Obito and you don't see him lashing out by starting a terrorist organization and paper-bombing babies. Think about the emotional affect it must have had on this kid by being shunned by majority of village and having no idea why. Think about how he must have felt seeing all the kids being picked up by their parents from the playground, and Naruto left alone to walk home by himself. I feel no sympathy whatsoever for putting Naruto through that.
 

Even though he deserves more punishment for his actions, think about the situation he's in now. Despite all of the time that was spent and all of the damage he's caused to fulfill the Eye of the Moon Plan, Obito was beaten right before he succeeded and his dream was crushed at his feet. Then he was forced to revive Madara and then had his dying body be used like a puppet by Black Zetsu. Then even after saving Naruto's life and gave him the chakra of the remaining tailed beasts, he's captured by Madara who goes to tell Obito that he was made into Madara's pawn by having Rin's death set up which meant he'd been working in the stead of a man who was responsible for his loss and caused him to become a monster. Finally, he's used like a puppet by Black Zetsu again and even though he's alive now, he's essentially living on borrowed time.
 
He doesn't deserve forgiveness and deserves more punishment, but he's been punished quite a bit as it is and it doesn't mean he can't have someone's sympathy. Also, despite what he's done, allow the poor bas***d to use what time he has left to atone for what he's done, even if it's miniscule in comparison.

So his plans botched and it turned out he was a pawn, that's not punishment, that's being a delusional fool who got tricked. You want to see real punishment then have him rot in jail and ponder his thoughts in complete darkness. Let him hear the whispers from the guards who label him as nothing but scum of the earth. But seeing as his death is imminent it's impossible now. And even when he's tried to atone he still unintentionally made Madara more powerful than he already is. lol nothing can go right for this fool. He was better off laying on the ground before he absorbed the Juubi.
 

Also, no offense luffy, but ever since I've come to this forum site (which wasn't that long ago), you always seem to be be either negative or have a chip on your shoulder. So please, lighten up a little.

I'm sorry you feel that way, it was not my intention to give you that impression.

Edited by luffyq1, 04 July 2014 - 05:27 AM.

[Jenskott]

 

 

Same here. Superman has always been my favorite. ^_^

 

Off-topic, but I agree. He is also my favorite super-hero.

 

I also like Batman. I dislike how a bunch of his fans try to turn him into a Gary Stu, but that is not Batman's fault. Fictional characters are not to be blamed by flawed writers or obnoxious fans.

[only Naruto]

I agree with you because Obito became a monster in almost every sense of the word. Not that my opinion matters but I wouldn't never forgive him for everything he's done, no matter what he does to atone for his sins. As we all know and what everyone's been saying, he ruined so many lives (especially Naruto's), killed so many people, and caused so much damage that he should never be forgiven and always be remembered by nearly everyone as a mass murdering monster.

 

Then again, I disagree with you that we shouldn't feel sympathy for him. Even though I couldn't forgive him for what he's done, he can still have my sympathy. If only but a little. He lost his parents when he was incredibly young, he nearly got crushed to death when he was saving his best friend and then watched his best friend (even if he found out the reasons behind it) kill the one girl he loved most. The one person that made him feel like it was worth living every day. Yes. Nothing justifies what he did in order to create a massive lie of an illusion to see her again, and he should be greatly punished for it, but it's all he had left in a world that, in his mind, was utterly worthless. It's sort of the idea that he had nothing left to lose but everything to gain. I'm not defending him, but he does have my sympathy for what at least drove him.

 

Even though he deserves more punishment for his actions, think about the situation he's in now. Despite all of the time that was spent and all of the damage he's caused to fulfill the Eye of the Moon Plan, Obito was beaten right before he succeeded and his dream was crushed at his feet. Then he was forced to revive Madara and then had his dying body be used like a puppet by Black Zetsu. Then even after saving Naruto's life and gave him the chakra of the remaining tailed beasts, he's captured by Madara who goes to tell Obito that he was made into Madara's pawn by having Rin's death set up which meant he'd been working in the stead of a man who was responsible for his loss and caused him to become a monster. Finally, he's used like a puppet by Black Zetsu again and even though he's alive now, he's essentially living on borrowed time.

 

He doesn't deserve forgiveness and deserves more punishment, but he's been punished quite a bit as it is and it doesn't mean he can't have someone's sympathy. Also, despite what he's done, allow the poor bas***d to use what time he has left to atone for what he's done, even if it's miniscule in comparison.

 

Also, no offense luffy, but ever since I've come to this forum site (which wasn't that long ago), you always seem to be be either negative or have a chip on your shoulder. So please, lighten up a little.

hey . i just want to clear something.  why are u making forgiveness = no punishment  ..

 thats where i disagrre with u and luffq1 . cause now naruto can kill obito because he killed his parents and friends . and still he can forgive him or not to  forgive him . yes its different. because obito now deserve to be killed no doubt , i mean imagine if obito hasnt return to the good side would naruto ever forgive him . no. because he didnt regret what he did . but naruto did forgave him cause he did regret it and he is ready to take the punishment whatever that is( he is willing to die but to help them which is better than they just kill him for his murders). .its now for naruto to decide and the shinobies is that obito lives or dies . but they have no hard feelings for him in the after life .(thats why kishi should have put .heaven and hell or something about the after life ) to show us that the villain that did kill and got his punishment without regret .and people didnt forgive him .he is to hell or never going to heaven .becomes nothing .anything .  and the villain that killed people .and got killed . but he regret it and shows that to people .and people killed him but forgave him .that he has a second chance in the after life .while he still can be punished in hell for 200 years(for his other deeds) but then go to heaven or something . i hope u see my point .that forgiveness is more about the after life more than its about the punishment in this life .(look nagato and obito kishi gave them a good ending cause they regret it . and madara (till now ) he had a bad ending cause he didnt regret.

Edited by only Naruto, 04 July 2014 - 08:29 AM.