749 replies to this topic

[Nate River]

It saddens me to see Kishi raping the concept of senjutsu.
 
I dont like how Kishi writes the powers anyway, first we only had 3 people wiht sharingan, now we got it almost everywhere, the same happened with rinnegan, it was only Nagato, then we got Obito and Madara.
Senjutsu, only Jiraiya, then later Naruto, later, Kabuto, Shodaime, and Madara probably.
 
The same happened with Naruto's power, even Minato could use it.

It reminds me of Vegeta's comment about a Super Saiyin Bargain Sale. Hashirama's cells are the same way. It's like there is a street vendor selling them cheap. Where did they bury his body and how many times his corpse has been defiled?

[TouKen4Life3g]

Hashirama can do it but why Madara, When Naruto defeated the pain that was sucking his chakra, that you must know how to handle the senjutsu otherwise you turn into a stone, now Madara can just steal it?

Well, not sure if he can handle it, which could be why he doesn't use it, but didn't Naruto purposely gave a lot of senjutsu chakra to Pain so it was too much and hard to handle that resulted him to change the appearance. I mean Pain was stealing chakra in a rapid speed, but little did he know, Naruto went sage so he took the senjutsu chakra too much, it was too late too handle or stop it.

 

@Nate: Lol at that bargain sale. I remember that line.

Edited by NaruSaku4Life3g, 18 September 2013 - 07:11 PM.

[BakeNeko-Chan]

Karin is all around unstable and, by all accounts, needs to be committed. 

I have serious qualms and issues with her character and have debated making a thread for my thoughts honestly. She might be the most offensively written female side character I've ever seen.

 

 

 

 

I really.....REALLY... wanted to see the scene where he says her smile is the cutest thing....wanted.....wanted.... 

 

About Karin, I definitely agree. For the longest time I've tried to look at her objectively and see if Kishi actually does something with this girl that is supposedly 'Sasuke's favorite'. I feel like this was just the final straw that broke the camel's back where my tolerance for Karin is concerned. I official despise her as a female character, she's like Misa, if I had to make a comparison. Misa blindly clung to Light regardless that he could easily have killed her and not looked back. I have little doubt he would have too, would it not have looked suspicious.

Karin is just a pathetic joke, an a very distasteful one at that. "There's a vicious chakra sucking tree? Who cares, I want to lick Sasuke."

[KnS]

Karin is just a pathetic joke, an a very distasteful one at that. "There's a vicious chakra sucking tree? Who cares, I want to lick Sasuke."

 

You know, I kind of like that Karin is portrayed as a freakshow for being so into Sasuke -- despite his glaring flaws and lack of interest. (Although she at least got a left-handed apology out of him.)  It is a shame for her, I agree, but I think it serves a purpose in the story.

 

Karin's mental state demonstrates what it would take to actually accept and want Sasuke as he really is, and then we can constrast her behavior with Sakura's.

 

Sakura-chan might have been a bit like Karin way in the beginning of Part I, idolizing Sasuke and finding him dreamy (Ino too, for that matter), but since then she has steadily grown and matured.  Sakura now appears to be affected by, and attracted to, very different qualities in a man, qualities that Sasuke does not possess and never has.

 

But Naruto does.  

[Sakamaki Izayoi]

Well, not sure if he can handle it, which could be why he doesn't use it, but didn't Naruto purposely gave a lot of senjutsu chakra to Pain so it was too much and hard to handle that resulted him to change the appearance. I mean Pain was stealing chakra in a rapid speed, but little did he know, Naruto went sage so he took the senjutsu chakra too much, it was too late too handle or stop it.

 

@Nate: Lol at that bargain sale. I remember that line.

BUt here's the catch the concepts only work on the begining before they get raped, the senjutsu is one of those, remember how atheck said and proved that senjutsu is (Physical energy + mental energy + natural chakra) well Naruto could mix senjutsu right with Kurama's chakra which is already made because the chakra flows though the seal and combine with Naruto's, not the other way around.

 

The nhe roflstomped the rule, which opens the possibility of even Sakura earning that, Orochimaru probably has it too just ot make things worse, Rinnegan could be obtained by Sasuke without having to wait his whole lifetime and stuff like that.

 

With Madara is basically this, he had Hashirama cells but never managed to control or obtain the senjutsu despite knowing the concept, he now can just steal it and control normally it's ridiculous to me.

Edited by Dαrkrєrsŧ, 18 September 2013 - 07:40 PM.

[HauntedCake]

Yeah Karin has just become a joke and moreso a reference to what sakura was in part 1. This is what sakura might see in upcoming chapers and might think " was i like this"

[BakeNeko-Chan]

 

 

You know, I kind of like that Karin is portrayed as a freakshow for being so into Sasuke -- despite his glaring flaws and lack of interest. (Although she at least got a left-handed apology out of him.)  It is a shame for her, I agree, but I think it serves a purpose in the story.

 

Karin's mental state demonstrates what it would take to actually accept and want Sasuke as he really is, and then we can constrast her behavior with Sakura's.

 

Sakura-chan might have been a bit like Karin way in the beginning of Part I, idolizing Sasuke and finding him dreamy (Ino too, for that matter), but since then she has steadily grown and matured.  Sakura now appears to be affected by, and attracted to, very different qualities in a man, qualities that Sasuke does not possess and never has.

 

But Naruto does.  

 

 

That's an interesting perspective, and that's kind of the way I felt prior to this chapter. I suppose I'm just feeling a little put out by it. But I really, really hope you're right and it does serve a purpose beyond just poor humor.

[TouKen4Life3g]

Yeah Karin has just become a joke and moreso a reference to what sakura was in part 1. This is what sakura might see in upcoming chapers and might think " was i like this"

Well, Karin is worse since she's more that deep while Sakura always root for him and wants a romance relationship. Karin can be like a girl who may say, "We get together and I want 12 kids!" Yeah...Hm...

[merryGOflava]

what makes Sasuke so desirable?? he's not nice, he barely talks, he seems gloomy, he's even a little crazy.

The only thing he has going for him are his looks and his ninja skills.

 

it makes it seem that all the girls that like Sasuke are shallow.

Ino should have no reason to like him for this long, when they barely interacted (seriously girl.....)

Karin shouldn't like him because he almost killed her.

Sakura also shouldn't like him because he never liked her, and also attempted to kill her....twice. I mean I can understand that she wants team 7 back, but she should know by now that Sasuke is not BF material.

 

none of these girls should like Sasuke, Kishi needs to stop forcing this shallow lust, cause it makes no sense.

 

I'm convinced that all Uchiha have the natural ability to charm any woman no matter how badly they've treated them.

Edited by merryGOflava, 18 September 2013 - 08:10 PM.

[Superman333]

what makes Sasuke so desirable?? he's not nice, he barely talks, he seems gloomy, he's even a little crazy.

The only thing he has going for him are his looks and his ninja skills.

 

it makes it seem that all the girls that like Sasuke are shallow.

Ino should have no reason to like him for this long, when they barely interacted (seriously girl.....)

Karin shouldn't like him because he almost killed her.

Sakura also shouldn't like him because he never liked her, and also attempted to kill her....twice. I mean I can understand that she wants team 7 back, but she should know by now that Sasuke is not BF material.

 

none of these girls should like Sasuke, Kishi needs to stop forcing this shallow lust, cause it makes no sense.

 

I'm convinced that all Uchiha have the natural ability to charm any woman no matter how badly they've treated them.

can't be too hard onf Sakura-Chan because at least she started recognizing that Naruto is the better choice for her . Sakura-Chan been realized it as she started getting closer to Naruto , she chose Naruto over Sasuke already .

[tricksie]

I think Karin's illustration in this chapter is very revealing. Kishimoto does not take her seriously. And therefore neither should we. 

 

Her pervy attitude is similar to Jiraiya's toward women (excluding Tsunade). I wouldn't compare Karin to Sakura at any part in the manga, simply because Sakura was serious about Sasuke. Not just as a lecherous crush, but about being his girlfriend, etc. Even offering to change her nature to better suit him as a partner.

 

Jiraiya's love of Tsunade was the same way. It was serious business, and in the end he was willing to change himself to be a better partner to her. (Even though he had the pervy side, it was only toward casual acquaintances. Not his true love, Tsunade.)

 

However, with Karin, she's never been shown to want more from Sasuke than the physical. And the physical side is shown as lecherous as you can get. She has never reflected on how might be a better partner for Sasuke, no internal dialogue, and she has never outwardly changed to better suit him.

 

I think Kishimoto is illustrating Karin as exactly the character she is: Someone who doesn't have any allegiances except to herself. She doesn't care that it's the middle of the war. And she doesn't really care that Sasuke's not into her. She still wants to jump his bones. And right now, probably the only reason she's even participating is the thought that she might have a shot at it. 

 

I think this scene was meant as a moment of levity in the midst of a war chapter. But as a character, if Kishimoto's no longer taking her development seriously, then neither will I. 

[merryGOflava]

can't be too hard onf Sakura-Chan because at least she started recognizing that Naruto is the better choice for her . Sakura-Chan been realized it as she started getting closer to Naruto , she chose Naruto over Sasuke already .

 

I get that but Sakura should have been over her crush ages ago.

I mean she could still of had lingering feelings, but she should know that Sasuke is not good for her.

(not saying she doesn't get this now...but I think she should of gotten it sooner)

 

that doesn't mean she had to move on to Naruto right away...but come on....what made her want to pursue Sasuke so much????

(to be noticed?)

Edited by merryGOflava, 18 September 2013 - 08:28 PM.

[Dkey]

what makes Sasuke so desirable?? he's not nice, he barely talks, he seems gloomy, he's even a little crazy.

The only thing he has going for him are his looks and his ninja skills.

 

it makes it seem that all the girls that like Sasuke are shallow.

Ino should have no reason to like him for this long, when they barely interacted (seriously girl.....)

Karin shouldn't like him because he almost killed her.

Sakura also shouldn't like him because he never liked her, and also attempted to kill her....twice. I mean I can understand that she wants team 7 back, but she should know by now that Sasuke is not BF material.

 

none of these girls should like Sasuke, Kishi needs to stop forcing this shallow lust, cause it makes no sense.

 

I'm convinced that all Uchiha have the natural ability to charm any woman no matter how badly they've treated them.

 

I think it's still something else.

For one the few mangas I've read had female characters that were still sticking near the man who was abusing them even when it was clear as day it was abuse.

Karin isn't exactly abused, the only thing that one can consider a deal breaker is the stabbing. But she treated it in her own style. Also her the attraction to Sasuke is pure physical. Maybe that's how she plans to have her revenge on Sasuke. By licking him or whatever kinky stuff she plans to do to him.

Anyway team taka is sometimes called team not seven but it should be called team not right in the head. I mean look at them.

Agreed with tricksie. If Kishi isn't in serious mode with Karin nor should we.

[Atheck]

BUt here's the catch the concepts only work on the begining before they get raped, the senjutsu is one of those, remember how atheck said and proved that senjutsu is (Physical energy + mental energy + natural chakra) well Naruto could mix senjutsu right with Kurama's chakra which is already made because the chakra flows though the seal and combine with Naruto's, not the other way around.
 
The nhe roflstomped the rule, which opens the possibility of even Sakura earning that, Orochimaru probably has it too just ot make things worse, Rinnegan could be obtained by Sasuke without having to wait his whole lifetime and stuff like that.
 
With Madara is basically this, he had Hashirama cells but never managed to control or obtain the senjutsu despite knowing the concept, he now can just steal it and control normally it's ridiculous to me.

Actually, when Kurama was explaining the particulars of making use of both Sage Mode and the tailed mode, his wording denoted that they would be used simultaneously, not that they would be melded together.

Kurama: "That time you were using Hermit Mode, but my chakra was flowing out too much and it managed to sync with your Hermit power."

Wikipedia definition of Synchronize/Sync: the coordination of events to operate a system in unison.

In other words, the two modes are acting independently from each other. Their only common variable is Naruto who is literally using two different types of chakra control at once (three if you include his own reserves). If the two chakras were being mixed together then the explanation would have been worded differently. Kurama made a clear distinction between the senjutsu arts and his own power.

[Dkey]

Actually, when Kurama was explaining the particulars of making use of both Sage Mode and the tailed mode, his wording denoted that they would be used simultaneously, not that they would be melded together.

Kurama: "That time you were using Hermit Mode, but my chakra was flowing out too much and it managed to sync with your Hermit power."

Wikipedia definition of Synchronize/Sync: the coordination of events to operate a system in unison.

In other words, the two modes are acting independently from each other. Their only common variable is Naruto who is literally using two different types of chakra control at once (three if you include his own reserves). If the two chakras were being mixed together then the explanation would have been worded differently. Kurama made a clear distinction between the senjutsu arts and his own power.

 

and yet how exactly will they work together if they don't mix.

 

The only way I see it is Naruto forms a rasengan/bijuudama and then surrounds it with sage mode chakra so that Obito can't dispel it. That's some serious chakra control.

 

A well hopefully how it works will be revealed in the next chapters.

[Superman333]

 

I get that but Sakura should have been over her crush ages ago.

I mean she could still of had lingering feelings, but she should know that Sasuke is not good for her.

(not saying she doesn't get this now...but I think she should of gotten it sooner)

 

that doesn't mean she had to move on to Naruto right away...but come on....what made her want to pursue Sasuke so much????

(to be noticed?)

for confidence and the fact of Naruto's little act in chapter 3 . since Sakura-Chan and sasuke(naruto) was going to kiss she kept on it and refused to see that bad because she hates to lose , she refused to lose to Ino also . that was a part of it during the Chuunin Exams in the Forest of death I once again saw that Sakura-Chan wants to win Sasuke over also so Ino couldn't win and get Sasuke first . 

 

Its not that she went on to naruto right away its more the fact that Inner Sakura was seeing Naruto for who he was while , she was understanding him and starting to get closer to Naruto . While Sasuke broke Sakura-Chan , naruto was picking up the pieces slowly , and too me sakura-Chan always had feelings for Naruto subconcsiously , it just took what she heard from Sai to make her realize hwo much she cares , she does everything for Naruto on impulse and it showed in chapter 11 and 297 . Sakura-Chan's real her always liked Naruto for a while and it started to grow into love . which proves that Sakura-Chan's lvoe for sasuke was never real but an illusion in my book . 

[Atheck]

and yet how exactly will they work together if they don't mix.

By using the chakra at the same time? Naruto could emit both sage and bijuu chakra from his body at the same time. It's one possible explanation at least. Or the principals could be similar to how he was able to create that whirlpool by using the effects of his Fuuton element alongside Yamato's Suiton. If the elements were actually being mixed together then they would have created Hyoton, Haku's Kekkei Genkai.

The same concept may apply to Naruto dual wielding his two modes.
 

The only way I see it is Naruto forms a rasengan/bijuudama and then surrounds it with sage mode chakra so that Obito can't dispel it. That's some serious chakra control.

That's another explanation which could tie into what I mentioned above. Switching between one source of chakra and the other. Regardless of how it specifically happens we were given information on how the chakra process works in that combined state from a reliable source.

Synchronise != Mix

Edited by Atheck, 18 September 2013 - 08:52 PM.

[KnS]

I think Karin's illustration in this chapter is very revealing. Kishimoto does not take her seriously. And therefore neither should we. 

 

Her pervy attitude is similar to Jiraiya's toward women (excluding Tsunade). I wouldn't compare Karin to Sakura at any part in the manga, simply because Sakura was serious about Sasuke. Not just as a lecherous crush, but about being his girlfriend, etc. Even offering to change her nature to better suit him as a partner.

 

Jiraiya's love of Tsunade was the same way. It was serious business, and in the end he was willing to change himself to be a better partner to her. (Even though he had the pervy side, it was only toward casual acquaintances. Not his true love, Tsunade.)

 

However, with Karin, she's never been shown to want more from Sasuke than the physical. And the physical side is shown as lecherous as you can get. She has never reflected on how might be a better partner for Sasuke, no internal dialogue, and she has never outwardly changed to better suit him.

 

I think Kishimoto is illustrating Karin as exactly the character she is: Someone who doesn't have any allegiances except to herself. She doesn't care that it's the middle of the war. And she doesn't really care that Sasuke's not into her. She still wants to jump his bones. And right now, probably the only reason she's even participating is the thought that she might have a shot at it. 

 

I think this scene was meant as a moment of levity in the midst of a war chapter. But as a character, if Kishimoto's no longer taking her development seriously, then neither will I. 

 

I understand what you're saying, and it is a valid point that Sakura and Karin cannot really be compared (and I only said "a little bit"), but I'm not sure we reach agreement for the same reasons.

 

My view of Sakura's original attraction to Sasuke is that it wasn't based on more than the physical, either.  It wasn't as pervy as Karin is now, since Sakura was only 11 or whatever, but the first revelation we got from Inner Sakura was, "Today I'm going to get Sasuke-kun, and I'm going to steal his first kiss!!"  Not exactly deep, even if she later said she was "serious" about Sasuke.

 

And I would argue that Karin's affection for Sasuke (however retconned it might be) had a better foundation than Sakura's did initially, since Sasuke at least saved Karin from the bear in the Forest of Death and she had a reason to immediately appreciate him.  When Sakura was first interested in him, it was not based on any personal interaction or knowledge -- only that he was the aloof, cool genius who all the other girls fancied.  (That would change later, of course, when Sakura was teamed with Sasuke and realized there was more to him than his looks and coolness, and she began to feel for him as a person.)

 

I've said this too many times already, but I don't think Karin should be expected to be normal, neither should her behavior be judged on the same scale as Sakura or any other girl in the story.  Karin is very damaged, and even in her chapter debut Suigetsu tells Sasuke that Karin is not normal because she was "experimented on a lot."  

 

Since the moment we met Karin as an "adult" she has been characterized pretty consistently, in my opinion.  Kishimoto might not be developing her, but how does such a damaged creature develop?  We haven't seen any in Suigetsu or Jugo, either.  That's part of the problem with Team Not Seven.  What real purpose do they serve other than to show the depth to which Sasuke has sunk for companionship and minions to control?  What purpose does Karin serve other than, as I said before, show how damaged a girl would have to be to continue pursuing Sasuke as a guy worth getting for any reason at all? 

 

Sakura is the "normal" character, according to Kishimoto, right?  She's the girl without a terrible childhood or any personal hardships to speak of, at least until she became a ninja.  Karin was an orphan, one who was collected by Orochimaru and turned into a lab rat.  Based on that, I wouldn't expect Karin to have any allegiances, except possibly to Orochimaru as has been demonstrated.  But deep and moral allegiances like the other characters?  We haven't been shown that she's capable or even knows what that really means.

 

Point being, I do expect more from Sakura.  That's why I think having Karin's fangirling of Sasuke is a good reminder that we expect to see that Sakura has grown in that department as well, and that Sasuke is the road for the damaged and shouldn't be traveled by a girl with better sensibilities and options.

 

Just my opinion.

Edited by KnS, 18 September 2013 - 09:33 PM.

[catsi563]

And to add to that I highly disagree with the notion of changing one self to match their ""love interest"". In point of fact that was one of Sakuras worst traits early on.

 

that notion that she hid her true self and changed herself from the out going person she is to this quiet demure little goody two shoes was sickening quite frankly.

 

Karin has NEVER changed herself for Sasuke or anybody for that matter. She has held firm to her character from her introduction to current. This to me is what makes her a strong character. She doesn't change for anyone or anything.

 

Sakura has changed core character wise but in a positive way and not FOR Naruto or FOR Sasuke. But she changed because she didn't like what she was seeing in the mirror, and the person she was couldn't catch up to and stand at the side of or even in front of those two.

 

She changed for herself as much as anyone.

 

Ino for all her crush is also an example of never changing except for the positive. She has stayed steady as a character changing only enough to acknowledge Sakura as a friend and rival.

[sushi.]

Karin was never personally loyal to Orochimaru, she stayed because of "her love for Sasuke". Taken right out of the databook.

She also cried for his safety, refused giving info on him to Ibiki even after the murder attempt and she still has hope that he'll someday come back to his old self. I never really took SK seriously until he almost got her killed actually. The flashback says, "I only wanted to see that smile again". She has a strong loyalty that can not only come from lust, she must love him or something.

 

I don't think she is a fangirl either, there is a clear difference between Sasuke's fangirls at the academy and Karin. Biggest is that the academy girls praised Sasuke for everything he said and did, but Karin has scolded him several times. Her lust is also always in her head and she denies it when someone(usually Suigetsu) points it out, it reminds me more of a tsundere than a fangirl.