787 replies to this topic

[arian_rad]

A full opinion of mine won't happen until this arc ends.

Good decision. This war honestly needs to be reviewed as a whole and not just volumes. It's been inconsistent at times and has had it's faults. People might look at it differently when it is taken as a whole and not just volumes or chapters.

[TouKen4Life3g]

 

smart decision imo. Unfortunately this reveal of what exactly the Juubi is may be addressed in the next volume or it may not. And unfortunately the depth that Nate was talking about will be bashed by other fans that want the story to continue.

I understand. The reason why I wait is because while it is fun to read and then wait for the next, but sometimes it's more fun to read to the end of the story branch, even though you know what's next or if you wait a long time, it's actually satisfying. One thing I learned from other pov is that one looks a bit foolish to say horrible things or not hoping for anything else next. Then when the next ep or chapter arrive, the guy would have a whole new opinion. It's not so bad, but it makes us look like a fool at times from our last opinion.

 

I can understand a 180 switch, but it will be more reasonable to do that switch in a slowly but surely pace. Like say this chapter got me wondering, then the next got me worrying, then the next is making me feel like something won't be good, and finally, I don't like it. That's ok, but you can't go all 180 immediately, because you easily lose hope and you can sound foolish from your last opinion. And if anyone tries to deny, I will like to say 615. Many were exposed and granted it's understandable, but you got to give it a time. Naruto is your worst enemy when it comes to time. Kishi already established that he takes so much time but he just wants to fill everything out. If that's not a dedicated writer, I don't know what is.

 

Look, I'm not saying Kishi is perfect or anything, but should just give a time and I know it's a lot, but it's the way of the journey. How do you think I feel that I have to wait a year for Game of Thrones, or any video games with a continuous story? It's hell, but we just have to wait. Even if this manga is out every week, it still feel like waiting for a new season because you're waiting for that moment that you hope to see, example like Sakura. So for me, I have hopes and I continue to wait.

Edited by NaruSaku4Life3g, 11 September 2013 - 09:59 PM.

[shadow_Uzumaki]

*sigh* You know, I don't accept this argument anymore. I hate when people use it too because it is just you using some form of excuse to say "Well, this is different." What does it have to do with it? Alot, because so many people bring forth that Guren Laggann is "so well written," but I could argue for that series the same argument you are using for this series. That's the connection.

Speaking of which, how many times did people compare Dragonball Z or other manga to this one? Because while the stories may change, the writing practices stay the same. You don't have rules for one and not have the same rules for the other unless you have a good reason to do so such as making a character with accents or making up words so people can get a clear idea of what the character may sound like. Stuff like that.

What the common factor is is a character becoming a god. Like any TV trope that many series encompass and writing practices, I could compare how each character, both Obito/So6P and Simon became gods, but unlike the Obito/Sage who have a real reason for having power, Simon does not or rather has a weaker reasoning behind him. Also, Obito/Sage are fairly weak compared to Simon's power who is pretty much omnipotent and can change reality of the universe to whatever he wants. I don't think Obito/Sage had that much power.

The sage got his power from his mother who got the power from eating some forbidden fruit from what is known as the "God Tree." Now many manga, like Dragonball, xXxholic, One Piece, and a few, have played the concept of having these "trees of power" bearing fruit which give normal humans powers or granting something else that is powerful.

Simon for Gurren Lagann however becomes god because...."He willed himself to." Literally, that is all that is. He willed himself to be god cause he can somehow tap into spiritual energy in the universe. How is this not bad writing in itself, but this chapter in Naruto is? How about how Haruhi is considered god yet there is no real explanation on why she is this "Reality creator/bender?"

 

How about Shinji Ikari in Evangelion? He became God for the moment. His was explained using the Eva's as a catalyst. Is this any different to this? I don't think so. It has about the same amount of explanation to me. So why does Haruhi, Simon, Shinji, and all these other God beings in anime get this pass with just as much or not even any explanation on "why?"

I'm sorry, I have seen worst explanations in other series that have been accepted.
 

 

 

 

This is a double standard though. I have to accept that Gurren Lagann can break the rules and I can't judge it because "it has it's own rules," but many here can judge Naruto like it is trying to destroy a major religion in the real world or something? As you said "Naruto operates in a different set of rules" which means that the set rules are what they are in the Naruto universe. You're telling me I have to accept the way Gurren Lagann behaves, but shouldn't the Naruto fans be the same way and just accept the rules that is in the Naruto universe?

This is a double standard. Once again people hand wave ideas away because they want something one way and when proven wrong by other methods say "Well, it follows it's own rules, so it doesn't count." That is what I like to call "cheating" and is practically a stupid argument to use. At least I don't accept that kind of argument, because then I could say the same to all the Naruto nay-sayers. "Well, tough, that is how the rules are. Deal with it." Which is practically what you are saying.

 

I might as well just say "Kishi can do whatever he wants and you have to accept it." End of debate. At least we get an explanation on why stuff happens the way it does and not just some stupid thing like "because he wanted it to be."

 

I am really sorry to some people, but if I can be brutally honest some of you are just complaining just to complain. I have seen worse explanations in other manga and when brought up you can hand wave say "It is not the same thing." The double standards I have seen when it comes to this manga alone truly baffle me to the point of insanity.

"We want more Sakura." Okay, but they can never tell me what they want her to do.
"We want this person to get a power-up." The character gets a power-up and then complain that it is either too OP or not enough explanation.
"We want more main characters to die." Kishi kills off Neji and then I hear complaining that that is not what they meant. They want some character who has no purpose to die, but wants their death to make a huge impact on the story or something....I don't even know anymore.
"We want a good villain that for once doesn't fall to talk no jutsu so easily." We get Obito who has been really awesome as a villain and people complain that "he is too whiny, why does it have to be about Rin? Obito is too OP. He should stay dead for once."

 

People are privileged to their opinion, but I really question whether some fans really know what you want at times. They set standards way too high, they can't decide what they want, and even when they get what they are after it is not what they really wanted.

What really gets bad though is when someone comes along and uses a counter argument that makes a lot of sense and these people downright just hand wave it and get really defensive over it. Really? So in essence, you can never be proven wrong because you don't want to be proven wrong and just as they have a choice not to listen to reason, I have a choice to not take what some say as serious.

I was predicted this was going to happen in several podcasts already and it does not surprise me. I knew this was going to happen and I talked about it especially in the last two. So, I am happy I was right.

So I ask again, what exactly do people want to see happen? I want to ask how would you write this manga and do you really think it is better than how Kishi has written it. Now keep in mind, I want to say that it will be judge to the same fair extent.

 

 

 

 

You misunderstand me (or maybe I'm misunderstanding you, I don't really know. *shrug*) Gurren Lagann has its own rules, which their fans respect, and Naruto has its own rules which people should also respect.  Maybe I don't respect the Naruto rules enough, but after the reading the chapter... it didn't really bother me.  

 

It's a fictional world with its own creation stories, the people of that universe may know of it, and we obviously do not.  We may see Christian Genesis, Norse Myth with its Yggdrasil, and of course Japanese myth, but obviously, Christianity, Norse, Japanese, and Hinduism, etc., doesn't really exist in the Naruto universe.  

 

I admit, I pretty much just skipped to the last page (only looking if Cassidy responded to my earlier comment), so I don't really understand the issue.  At this point, I've expected Kishi to pull one asspull per chapter, so eh, that might be the reason why.  

 

Remember, there are STILL fanfics, go make your own 'fix-fics,' or something.  I'm pretty sure this Forbidden Fruit-esque past of the Naruto-verse is fodder for fic-writers....  I'm already making up ideas in my head.

[BlueStarSaber]

 

Sometimes I feel like it's best to just read the chapter, take it for what it is, and ignore what the rest of the fandom has to say about it. Everyone has their complaints. No sense in ruffling anyone's feathers, or having your feather's ruffled either, for that matter.

 

Yeah I tend to do that now

[TouKen4Life3g]

 
Yeah I tend to do that now

I know I do. Otherwise, the day of 615 release......me sad.

[TerrorKing]

Well, that escalated quickly...

 

I find this creation myth quite fascinating. I obviously don't know if it will serve a further purpose other than to explain what exactly the Juubi is, but I hope so. Perhaps this creation myth contains the secret to defeating the Juubi? Perhaps this means that Sakura is somehow linked to this Kagura Ootsutsuki? I doubt it, but it's still a nice theory. 

 

Speaking of Sakura. At this point, I am almost a 100% sure that she will play a major role very soon. If not, then I don't see why Kishi would bother to show her and only her.    

[Paptala]

It’s not even that Naruto just has a bigger fanbase, but that the story has been going on for so long.  With such a long running popular story that comes out weekly and has breaks every now and then as well, I think a lot of fans are able to spend time speculating where the story may go and then get disappointed when the story doesn’t go the way they thought or hoped it would.

 

I can’t recall who, but I know that people have said that the story reads much better when read in volume format, and I think that is probably true.

 

Personally, I don’t understand what was so horrible about this chapter myself.  I am perfectly aware of the type of story I am reading, and Kishi’s writing style has been pretty consistent since at least the start of the war arc (imo), so I don’t know why all of sudden fans are upset (again, other than being disappointed that the story went in a different direction than they thought or hoped it would).  As Slextrem said, I just take the story for what it is – a shounen directed at middle school boys that doesn’t always have consistent or quality writing, but still entertains me and keeps me wanting to know how it all ends regardless.

 

That being said, if people don’t like it, they are well within their right to not like the chapter – I just don’t understand what the huge deal is with this chapter in particular when this type of thing doesn’t seem out of the norm for Kishimoto to do.

[Inferno180]

Heh with the whole tree of life if it takes something like a unified strike against the tree, maybe they can cut it down with a super powered rasenshuriken and make it act like a giant wood chipper. 

 

Well the whole tree thing isn't as random, I mean the Juubi was called the source of all chakra. Kishi just expanded on that, we had more random moments earlier this year, mainly involving the stuff with the convenient resurrection of the hokages and Sasuke's sudden action to help the alliance but keep another plan as well. The tree stuff can come into play, well its about too, next issue either the eye of the moon plan goes off or something else happens. I'm still surprised Obito hasn't retaliated on Madara for forcing the rinne tensei on him. Something has to happen between the evil leaders, they have their own conflict going on surely.

 

I don't see permanent character death either, just temporary at best, Obito may do a rinne tensei to revive all those fodder ninja killed at the fight. Things for how this fight ultimately ends is left ambiguous for now, but I still see a NS moment possibly incoming and definitely later on once its only remaining on Sasuke to be addressed for Naruto. 631 and 635 will lead somewhere for Sakura, and Naruto, 631 was only a parallel confirmation but also a start to many more potential things for NaruSaku.

[LuckyChi7]

I've started rereading the war from 515- where we are in the war, and quite honestly I've notice that the war's endgame was drawing in as soon as Madara joined the battle between Obito vs Naruto, Kakashi, Guy, and Killer Bee. Why do I think the war will end in the next volume, well let's take a look at things from when the war started. 

 

Volumes 55-58: The Beginning of The War (515-555)

• The Shinobi Alliance vs The Edo Tensei and Zetsu
• Kakashi vs Zabuza and The Seven Swordsman of The Mist 
• Darui vs Ginkaku and Kinkaku
• Team 10 vs Asuma Sarutobi
• Naruto and Killer Bee Enter The Battlefield
• Gaara and Onoki vs Fourth Kazekage 
• Naruto and Killer Bee vs Itachi and Nagato  (Later: Naruto, Killer and Itachi vs Nagato)
• Gara and Onoki vs Tsuchikage (Later Naruto joins)
• Naruto vs The Third Raikage 

 

Volumes 59-63: The Turning Point (Chapters 556-607)

 

• Gaara and Onoki vs Second Mizukage (Later Naruto joins) 
• Kabuto's Trump Card is Revealed to be Madara Uchiha
• Five Kages vs Madara Uchiha
• Naruto and Killer Bee vs Jinchuriki (Later Kakashi and Might Guy joins)
• Sasuke enters the war 
•  Itachi and Sasuke vs Kabuto 
• Itachi releases The Edo Tensei Jutsu
• Orchimaru's Return
• Naruto, Kakashi, Guy, and Bee vs Tobi
•  The Revelation to Tobi's Identity
• Madara joins in Obito's fight against Naruto, Kakashi, Guy, and Bee
• How Obito became Tobi  

Volumes 64- Present (So Far): End of The Fourth Great Ninja War (Chapters 608-Present) 

• Ten Tails gets revived
• Shinobi Alliance join the battle against Obito and Madara 
• Team Taka revive The Fourth Hokages 
• Sasuke and The Edo Hokages joins the battle
• Obito becomes The Ten Tails Jinchuriki
• Naruto, Sasuke, Minato, and Tobirama vs Mock Sage
• Obito frees The Ten Tails
• Infinite Tsukiyomi Begins  

 

This is why I believe that volume 68 will be the end of the war because the only things that's left are: 

• Breaking through Infinite Tsukiyomi
• The Five Kage and Rest of Team Taka to arrive 
• Defeating Obito and Madara Uchiha 
• Kakashi and Minato Reunion 
• The Edo Hokages Disappear
•  Sasuke's Betrayal 

 

What do you guys think? 

Edited by LuckyChi7, 12 September 2013 - 12:14 AM.

[Rozette]

 

Hagoromo is the right one.

 

Thank you!  That is what I suspected.

[Superman333]

I've started rereading the war from 515- where we are in the war, and quite honestly I've notice that the war's endgame was drawing in as soon as Madara joined the battle between Obito vs Naruto, Kakashi, Guy, and Killer Bee. Why do I think the war will end in the next volume, well let's take a look at things from when the war started. 

 

Volumes 55-58: The Beginning of The War (515-545)

• The Shinobi Alliance vs The Edo Tensei and Zetsu
• Kakashi vs Zabuza and The Seven Swordsman of The Mist 
• Darui vs Ginkaku and Kinkaku
• Team 10 vs Asuma Sarutobi
• Naruto and Killer Bee Enter The Battlefield
• Gaara and Onoki vs Fourth Kazekage 
• Naruto and Killer Bee vs Itachi and Nagato  (Later: Naruto, Killer and Itachi vs Nagato)
• Gara and Onoki vs Tsuchikage (Later Naruto joins)
• Naruto vs The Third Raikage 

 

Volumes 59-63: The Turning Point (Chapters 556-607)

 

• Gaara and Onoki vs Second Mizukage (Later Naruto joins) 
• Kabuto's Trump Card is Revealed to be Madara Uchiha
• Five Kages vs Madara Uchiha
• Naruto and Killer Bee vs Jinchuriki (Later Kakashi and Might Guy joins)
• Sasuke enters the war 
•  Itachi and Sasuke vs Kabuto 
• Itachi releases The Edo Tensei Jutsu
• Orchimaru's Return
• Naruto, Kakashi, Guy, and Bee vs Tobi
•  The Revelation to Tobi's Identity
• Madara joins in Obito's fight against Naruto, Kakashi, Guy, and Bee
• How Obito became Tobi  

Volumes 64- Present (So Far): End of The Fourth Great Ninja War (Chapters 608-Present) 

• Ten Tails gets revived
• Shinobi Alliance join the battle against Obito and Madara 
• Team Taka revive The Fourth Hokages 
• Sasuke and The Edo Hokages joins the battle
• Obito becomes The Ten Tails Jinchuriki
• Naruto, Sasuke, Minato, and Tobirama vs Mock Sage
• Obito frees The Ten Tails
• Infinite Tsukiyomi Begins  

 

This is why I believe that volume 68 will be the end of the war because the only things that's left are: 

• Breaking through Infinite Tsukiyomi
• The Five Kage and Rest of Team Taka to arrive 
• Defeating Obito and Madara Uchiha 
• Kakashi and Minato Reunion 
• The Edo Hokages Disappear
•  Sasuke's Betrayal 

 

What do you guys think? 

yeah sounds good . 

[TouKen4Life3g]

I've started rereading the war from 515- where we are in the war, and quite honestly I've notice that the war's endgame was drawing in as soon as Madara joined the battle between Obito vs Naruto, Kakashi, Guy, and Killer Bee. Why do I think the war will end in the next volume, well let's take a look at things from when the war started. 
 
Volumes 55-58: The Beginning of The War (515-555)

• The Shinobi Alliance vs The Edo Tensei and Zetsu
• Kakashi vs Zabuza and The Seven Swordsman of The Mist 
• Darui vs Ginkaku and Kinkaku
• Team 10 vs Asuma Sarutobi
• Naruto and Killer Bee Enter The Battlefield
• Gaara and Onoki vs Fourth Kazekage 
• Naruto and Killer Bee vs Itachi and Nagato  (Later: Naruto, Killer and Itachi vs Nagato)
• Gara and Onoki vs Tsuchikage (Later Naruto joins)
• Naruto vs The Third Raikage 

 
Volumes 59-63: The Turning Point (Chapters 556-607)
 

• Gaara and Onoki vs Second Mizukage (Later Naruto joins) 
• Kabuto's Trump Card is Revealed to be Madara Uchiha
• Five Kages vs Madara Uchiha
• Naruto and Killer Bee vs Jinchuriki (Later Kakashi and Might Guy joins)
• Sasuke enters the war 
•  Itachi and Sasuke vs Kabuto 
• Itachi releases The Edo Tensei Jutsu
• Orchimaru's Return
• Naruto, Kakashi, Guy, and Bee vs Tobi
•  The Revelation to Tobi's Identity
• Madara joins in Obito's fight against Naruto, Kakashi, Guy, and Bee
• How Obito became Tobi  

Volumes 64- Present (So Far): End of The Fourth Great Ninja War (Chapters 608-Present) 

• Ten Tails gets revived
• Shinobi Alliance join the battle against Obito and Madara 
• Team Taka revive The Fourth Hokages 
• Sasuke and The Edo Hokages joins the battle
• Obito becomes The Ten Tails Jinchuriki
• Naruto, Sasuke, Minato, and Tobirama vs Mock Sage
• Obito frees The Ten Tails
• Infinite Tsukiyomi Begins  

 
This is why I believe that volume 68 will be the end of the war because the only things that's left are: 

• Breaking through Infinite Tsukiyomi
• The Five Kage and Rest of Team Taka to arrive 
• Defeating Obito and Madara Uchiha 
• Kakashi and Minato Reunion 
• The Edo Hokages Disappear
•  Sasuke's Betrayal 

 
What do you guys think? 

Wow, nice work there. I wish I thought of that. Right now, just cleaning my library before next gen consoles, hype or not. That said well Sasuke will be ending this arc in a dark way as in "Next time, we will fight, Naruto..." or however he demonstrates. It will be dark.

Fun fact: Minato is still alive and all. You know what that means? That's right...........NS PLOT SHIELD LIVES!!!

[Mistraal]

 

You do. You have a tunnel vision with "Kishi is sexist" so you look for anything to validate that concept. What most of us saw in Kaguya was a woman who saw a never ending conflict between people and wanted to subdue it for a better future. While her actions had consequences her intentions where good. And nobody is giving her credit for what Harogomo did. I don't know what made you think that.

 

 

The bolded. What is there to know? There was war and she wanted peace, so she thought the best way to achieve it was through attaining the chakra powers. Do you think she was some dictator? That's thinking negatively too much. The theme Madara brings up is how humanity no matter what methods they use to achieve peace always end up turning back to war, and that's what's associated with Kaguya. If you see it through a neutral perspective instead of having this mental expectation of "Kishi is sexist" it would be very easy for you to notice.

 

I won't deny you that there's a pattern of women being somewhat weaker, but do you really think Kishi does it on purpose? It could all just be a simple coincidence, you know? It might be from the nature of writing a shounen (you know, a boys manga), so he would just instinctively focus on writing male characters.

 

But as you said, even though the male counterpart might be stronger, he regardless makes some female characters to be strong and resourceful. Two of the five villages have Kunoichi leaders, and during the war Kishi has taken the time to draw both male and female ninjas.

 

This isn't Dragonball Z where every single fighter was a guy (with the exception of #18). Kishi, despite being more oriented to showing off the guys (given the intended demographic of Naruto), does show that being a ninja is not only a male thing to do. Even if you feel he should give girls more power at least you should acknowledge that he doesn't think females are too delicate for the ninja work and should just stay at home.

 

 

 

"What is there to know?"

 

 

This train of thought right here is the entire problem even though no one wants to admit it. You say above that she wanted a better future and peace. Ok. Good motives. And then she magically achieves this. But when it comes to how no one but me is appearing to care.

What really makes me laugh is Madara has been really off to the side and people have been wondering about his motives, reasons and actions for like 10 chapters now. So in order to give Madara some exposition into why he feels the way he does and panel time Kishi invents this Kagura woman who ate the evil fruit and brought peace then the war again that is now crescendoing into ALL our problems and will probably never be expanded on again.

How she GOT the fruit or even knew what it did wasn't even explained very well if at all. She shouldn't have even had motivation to eat it according to Madara. This is a HUGE lynchpin and more storybuilding then we've seen in Naruto in a LONG time and she's glossed over as the baby momma. Women who are defined by their biological functions are not characters. PERIOD. That's Character Building 101.

I can't paint it any more plainly for you.
 

Edited by Mistraal, 12 September 2013 - 02:21 AM.

[Superman333]

 

 

 

"What is there to know?"

 

 

This train of thought right here is the entire problem even though no one wants to admit it. You say above that she wanted a better future and peace. Ok. Good motives. And then she magically achieves this. But when it comes to how no one but me is appearing to care.

What really makes me laugh is Madara has been really off to the side and people have been wondering about his motives, reasons and actions for like 10 chapters now. So in order to give Madara some exposition into why he feels the way he does and panel time Kishi invents this Kagura woman who ate the evil fruit and brought peace then the war again that is now crescendoing into ALL our problems and will probably never be expanded on again.

How she GOT the fruit or even knew what it did wasn't even explained very well if at all. She shouldn't have even had motivation to eat it according to Madara. This is a HUGE lynchpin and more storybuilding then we've seen in Naruto in a LONG time and she's glossed over as the baby momma. Women who are defined by their biological functions are not characters. PERIOD. That's Character Building 101.

I can't paint it any more plainly for you.
 

The chapter was good , Kishi will explain everything in due time like he always does its just up to us to catch it . 

[Superman333]

Like I said i don't know why some people are seriously so angry and butthurt about this chapter , Kishi has been giving blunt hints that this would have happened sooner or later . The action is great and Kishi is making the story even more interesting can't wait to see what happens next . 

 

and I feel a NS moment coming soon . 

[Mistraal]

 

 

and I feel a NS moment coming soon . 

I sure hope so since it seems to be her only hope to staying in the focus of the story. I said many chapters ago that I would arson something if Sakura got backburnered again and here we are with the fodderization... *lighters and matches*

Seriously though. It also doesn't appear we'll get any Obito x Naruto - Sakura x Rin parallels either.   Boo.

 

[TouKen4Life3g]

I'm telling you, Minato plot shield for NS lives on! We are safe.

I hope he lives through this war though.

[Superman333]

I sure hope so since it seems to be her only hope to staying in the focus of the story. I said many chapters ago that I would arson something if Sakura got backburnered again and here we are with the fodderization... *lighters and matches*

Seriously though. It also doesn't appear we'll get any Obito x Naruto - Sakura x Rin parallels either.   Boo.

 

we can still have a ObiRin and NaruSaku parallel if Naruto uses TnJ on Obito , imo . And the story is far from over yet we have lots of NS moments to come trust me . And Sakura-Chan isn't being put on the backburner , if it makes anybody feel better Naruto also got messed up by the tree . But Sakura-Chan will have lots of relevance in the upcoming chapters . BuT I can see Naruto maybe crying over Sakura if she looks dead or he will save her . Sakura-Chan will have her moments again and I mean major moments . 

Edited by Superman333, 12 September 2013 - 02:44 AM.

[Superman333]

I'm telling you, Minato plot shield for NS lives on! We are safe.

I hope he lives through this war though.

exactly , and I doubt Kishi would take him out before the end of the war . That would be a kitten move on Kishi's part . 

[Mistraal]

we can still have a ObiRin and NaruSaku parallel if Naruto uses TnJ on Obito , imo . And the story is far from over yet we have lots of NS moments to come trust me . And Sakura isn't being put on the backburner , if it makes anybody feel better Naruto also got messed up by the tree . But Sakura will have lots of relevance in the upcoming chapters . BuT I can see Naruto maybe crying over Sakura if she looks dead or he will save her . 

Naruto is absorbed with disdain for Sasuke atm. At least that's what i took away from this panel.

Naruto's face

 

 

 

He fell out of Kyuubi mode so if he was keeping a sensor tab on her he's lost it by now and I somehow don't see him taking off trekking around the battlefield looking for Sakura. His sense of duty is too strong. i think at most she'd be a blip in a thought bubble.