3406 replies to this topic

[Nefertieh]

I really mise the purpose about this holding their hands forward.... They want really to fight together holding their hands untile the end of the battle?

RikutoShika pointed out that Naruto probably held her hand to pass chakra to her. Probably not exactly like how Hinata envisioned it to be, but still.

Edited by Nefertieh, 27 December 2012 - 02:32 PM.

[T XD]

I really mise the purpose about this holding their hands forward.... They want really to fight together holding their hands untile the end of the battle?

Of course not, it was only in this chapter. Imagine you fighting together with someone and holding their hands all the time ! You can't fight properly.

[Codus N]

What does my post have to do with Naruto's POV? It had NOTHING to do with Naruto's point of view.
I was discussing MY point of view as a reader that Sakura's sacrifice for Naruto is nothing small compared to that of Hinata's.

But to answer your question....
If Naruto doesn't see that? Then I won't care anymore. He wasn't really the main character/leader type material I thought he was.
If Sakura doesn't understand how much Naruto sacrificed for her? Then I won't care anymore. She didn't get the development I thought she would get.
If this happens THEN I would finally jump ship.

The problem is it seemed like you were trying to pretend to be Naruto and your view is Naruto's POV.

As for the last part, I agree so much. Kishi had a great manga running only to end up completely destroying it in the climax of the series.

[RedDelicious]

I don't think NH is canon. But I do think this is the first chapter to really steer that ship in the right direction. (Still think it will run aground before reaching the destination, but that's an opinion.)

When Obito reached out his hand, my first thought was, if Naruto was a little more composed, that would have been an opportunity to sucker punch Obito at close range. And then Hinata ruined it by giving that speech.

[Chucky-kun]

The problem is it seemed like you were trying to pretend to be Naruto and your view is Naruto's POV.

As for the last part, I agree so much. Kishi had a great manga running only to end up completely destroying it in the climax of the series.

There's still a possibility of redemption though. Just depends on how he handles these next chapters.

[fireandice]

There's still a possibility of redemption though. Just depends on how he handles these next chapters.

Cheer up guys, I too wish Kishi would give Sakura more spotlight and actually have her definitively get over Sasuke earlier, but it's not the end yet.

If it ends up as NaruHina so SasuSaku can happen then I agree that is total rubbish. From a standpoint of this chapter as to resolve Neji and Hinata's role as characters, it actually is pretty well done and ties in nicely with what happened in Part 1. If it really is to force NH then I'd say it's bad writing to throw out so much NaruSaku development. IMO, one of final developments for Sakura's character has to be her learning to get over Sasuke. She doesn't have to kill him, but I would like her to realise the Sasuke she thought she was in love in all along was always a creation of her own mind. Even before he went bad, it was really a superficial crush based on how 'cool' he looked.

Edited by fireandice, 27 December 2012 - 02:45 PM.

[Strangelove]

I don't care about the pairing stuff, if NH is canon that's great, more for them.

But anyways, did anyone notice how bad ass Bee was, I mean he just threw himself in there xD

[rikakim94]

We should take a break from the manga this is getting depressing.


Not only that but the manga is just not what it used to be...

[naruto-z]

Can't believe we're already on page 21. I'm not going through the pages but I want to make it clear that Sakura's short appearance in the chapter made me think about how she's feeling seeing Naruto and Hinata from a distance. If anything, this will be the catalyst to Sakura's development.

As for Hinata, yeah, this chapter revealed the strongest and best possibility of Naruhina in the entire manga. But that also shows how weak their argument "can" be. Hinata's entire final dialogue consists of thoughts. Naruto doesn't share any of those thoughts. It's obvious there's also a transfer of chakra going on. As others have said, this chapter was 100% development of Hinata. She finally got to hold Naruto's hand as she fought next to him. She's maturing. But is there any guaranteed Naruhina development? No. Did she confess and did Naruto confess? No. So there is no reason to jump ship. There would have to be a long amount of development after this for Naruhina to be cannon.

And finally, the best part about this chapter is the fact that we can finally move on from all this tension with Hinata. It's like a needle, this whole issue is now done and we don't have to focus on it. Obito has once again shown his thought on Rin. If anything, right now he aims to kill Hinata.

Now the bad part is that we're going to have to sit here anxiously for 2-3 weeks waiting anxiously and uncomfortably. Just how the debates hope don't get too creative and fearful.

Edited by naruto-z, 27 December 2012 - 02:53 PM.

[ramenanmitsu]

The problem is it seemed like you were trying to pretend to be Naruto and your view is Naruto's POV.

As for the last part, I agree so much. Kishi had a great manga running only to end up completely destroying it in the climax of the series.

No I didn't. I seriously have no idea where you got the idea that I was pretending to be Naruto. I said that "Hinata's moves are flashy, and Sakura is done more discreetly." How does this automatically become me pretending to be Naruto? You were the one who automatically assumed I was talking from Naruto's POV when I didn't. And other people who read my post understood what I meant so I'm quite sure it wasn't a misleading post either.

I don't think you really understood what I said at the last part either. Because I don't think Kishi destroyed the manga YET.

And btw, I'm not trying to be rude at all or anything. I'm just bad at using emoticons and those kind of things, so sorry if I come out as sounding like a cold-hearted person. I'm very bad at trying to explain things in a "nice" way. So please just imagine there is a "lol" or a smile emoticon at the end of each sentence.

Edited by ramenanmitsu, 27 December 2012 - 02:52 PM.

[Gravenimage]

Can't believe we're already on page 21. I'm not going through the pages but I want to make it clear that Sakura's short appearance in the chapter made me think about how she's feeling seeing Naruto and Hinata from a distance. If anything, this will be the catalyst to Sakura's development.

As for Hinata, yeah, this chapter revealed the strongest and best possibility of Naruhina in the entire manga. But that also shows how weak their argument "can" be. Hinata's entire final dialogue consists of thoughts. Naruto doesn't share any of those thoughts. It's obvious there's also a transfer of chakra going on. As others have said, this chapter was 100% development of Hinata. She finally got to hold Naruto's hand as she fought next to him. She's maturing. But is there any guaranteed Naruhina development? No. Did she confess and did Naruto confess? No. So there is no reason to jump ship. There would have to be a long amount of development after this for Naruhina to be cannon.

And finally, the best part about this chapter is the fact that we can finally move on from all this tension with Hinata. It's like a needle, this whole issue is now done and we don't have to focus on it. Obito has once again shown his thought on Rin. If anything, right now he aims to kill Hinata.

Now the bad part is that we're going to have to sit here anxiously for 2-3 weeks waiting anxiously and uncomfortably. Just how the debates here don't get too creative and fearful.

This^

[Codus N]

No I didn't. I seriously have no idea where you got the idea that I was pretending to be Naruto. I said that "Hinata's moves are flashy, and Sakura is done more discreetly." How does this automatically become me pretending to be Naruto? You were the one who automatically assumed I was talking from Naruto's POV when I didn't. And other people who read my post understood what I meant so I'm quite sure it wasn't a misleading post either.

I don't think you really understood what I said at the last part either. Because I don't think Kishi destroyed the manga YET.

And btw, I'm not trying to be rude at all or anything. I'm just bad at using emoticons and those kind of things, so sorry if I come out as sounding like a cold-hearted person.

Ok, I think I need to clear this up. I must also apologize for not being clear enough as well.

As you've said, Hinata is "flashy" and Sakura is "discreet". What I meant when I said what I said to you is that it will depend on Naruto's POV and what he cherishes more. "Flashy" or "discreet"?? that's the million-dollar question here. If Kishi decides Hinata's "flashy-ness" is better through Naruto's eyes, then it's obvious he's going for NH. But if he (Naruto) prefers Sakura's "discreet", then NS all the way. The problem is that when you were laying them out, you came off as rather snobbish and assumed your opinion=Naruto's opinion. When we don't even know what Naruto's true opinion is.

As for the last part, I meant it as if Kishi was doing so currently, and if that did happen, my opinion would be that Kishi's completely destroyed his story.

[Nate River]

It's twenty pages and I don't have time to read them all, so if I conver ground that's already been convered I agree with Ani completely.

Overall, my opinion is unchanged from what I said in my #614 post. This is Hinata's development. She got what she wanted, and her character has finally made some progress. Some. It was looking good for her until she said the stupid thing about holding Naruto's hand making her feel safe. One step forward, two steps back. *sigh*

I would agree with some of this, especially the part about her getting what she wanted. With the exception of early Part 1 Sakura and Naruto, the various people in the pairing triangle haven't really made much of pursuing a romantic relationship, at least in terms of openly stating it as THE desired end.

Even for the satellite Hinata, she has never stated that as the ultimate endgame. I don't doubt that she wants that but when she says what she wants its always other things; like being useful or helpful or the holding hand thing in 573. My rational for believing she should have died at her confession is because she got to do those things and nothing about her character or what she said she wanted prior to that ever demanded a response. The subsequent development changed that, but it could have been done. Likewise with this scene, this could be it. She got what she said she wanted and this could be the end of her development. Nothing in this scene, really demands he proceed any further with it .

I would also agree there this hurts. It helps their cause and its certaintly something he could build on later on down the line.

However, this does not make anything canon because there is no distinct reciprocation on Naruto's end and he doesn't really do or saying anything that is inconsistent with what has come before it. It's the same attitude and type of reaction as before and the last time we got anything read on his romantic feelings it was all Sakura. I don't know Japanese culture and maybe this type of hand holding means only one thing there, but the context of what Naruto does here doesn't explicity scream "I love you" and I don't see him resolving such a consistent and naggin plot point with that gesture while Naruto is saying nothing of romance. I think the final resolution will be more explicit (kissing, mutual declarations, etc.).

Of course, I admit my threshold for calling any of the three canon is really high. Since I expect that explicit resolution, I prefer to hold off until I get it.

Finally, I agree with the one step foward two steps back. She says she needs to stand on her own and she does for a few panels and then falls back to crutch mode. The jump seemed abrupt, but given that Neji died it felt appropriate, but rather than standing strong she almost bashfully focuses on that rather than the actual task at hand? Whatever.

P.S. When all the shipping nonsense dies down (assuming it does), there are a few interesting things about the other panels to discuss -- the inclusion of the single panel of Obito/Rin, for example. In my opinion, it begs a very obvious question.......

I don't think it will, so I'll jump in with one. Was that Naruto reaching for Obito? If so, I am so disappointed in him for that.

I saw in the debate thread someone say Neji need to die to prove Obito wrong. I'd only agree that its needed to prove to Obito that he is wrong. Obito being wrong is self-evident to me and stuff like this is why. The guy claiming there is nothing but despair is proving his point by inflicting despair on our hero, and doing so by taking away the more expendible section of his friend base. So you're going to reach out for THAT guy? He promises a better world, but Naruto's world only blows because of that guy his reaching for? It it were me I'd tell him to screw off out of pure spite.

Why the hell would you submit to the vision of the very guy who is the reason you feel much despire? More importantly, this guy used his power to kill your friends and you will escape to a reality of HIS creation, depending on his word that it will be as great as he says it is and you will get what you want because he says so?

I wouldn't believe in it.

I'm sorry. Naruto came off as so weak here. I don't care if Neji died. Obito is the bastard that killed him and Naruto's willing to submit to that? I'd feel better if Obito made a better case, but he hasn't. His case that reality sucks is made solely by the fact that he is making reality suck for everyone, so they must submit to his alternate reality where, trust him, it doesn't suck? Bah.

I hope I read that wrong.

I think that may have been the most disappointing moment of the chapter and not the shipping stuff.

[Sakamaki Izayoi]

Ok, I think I need to clear this up. I must also apologize for not being clear enough as well.

As you've said, Hinata is "flashy" and Sakura is "discreet". What I meant when I said what I said to you is that it will depend on Naruto's POV and what he cherishes more. "Flashy" or "discreet"?? that's the million-dollar question here. If Kishi decides Hinata's "flashy-ness" is better through Naruto's eyes, then it's obvious he's going for NH. But if he (Naruto) prefers Sakura's "discreet", then NS all the way. The problem is that when you were laying them out, you came off as rather snobbish and assumed your opinion=Naruto's opinion. When we don't even know what Naruto's true opinion is.

As for the last part, I meant it as if Kishi was doing so currently, and if that did happen, my opinion would be that Kishi's completely destroyed his story.

He's already destroying Sakura's character.
the worse is another double issue from jump, 2012 really sucks worst year ever.

Edited by Dαrkrєrsŧ, 27 December 2012 - 03:22 PM.

[Poison_In_Your_Coffee]

Naruto's weakness is wanting a world where everything is sunshine and puppies all the time. It doesn't really surprise me that he would consider Obito's dreamie dream uber good dream world as a possibility after seeing something very horrible and devastating such as death of a friend in front of him. I believe this is also part of the newest movie, Naruto considering staying in a dream world because things are in some ways better there than in his real world? Recurring element of his character, I'd say. I have to admit, thought, that I think Neji really didn't seem that important to Naruto. Sasuke, Sakura, Kakashi, Jiraiya... Death of characters like that would have made Naruto considering O's offer more realistic.

Edit. Loving all the comments about how this destroys Sakura's character. It's not Sakura holding hand of some other woman. It's Naruto who has got his ladies' man act on. What's Sakura to do with that?

Edited by Poison_In_Your_Coffee, 27 December 2012 - 03:25 PM.

[ramenanmitsu]

Ok, I think I need to clear this up. I must also apologize for not being clear enough as well.

As you've said, Hinata is "flashy" and Sakura is "discreet". What I meant when I said what I said to you is that it will depend on Naruto's POV and what he cherishes more. "Flashy" or "discreet"?? that's the million-dollar question here. If Kishi decides Hinata's "flashy-ness" is better through Naruto's eyes, then it's obvious he's going for NH. But if he (Naruto) prefers Sakura's "discreet", then NS all the way. The problem is that when you were laying them out, you came off as rather snobbish and assumed your opinion=Naruto's opinion. When we don't even know what Naruto's true opinion is.

As for the last part, I meant it as if Kishi was doing so currently, and if that did happen, my opinion would be that Kishi's completely destroyed his story.

I said it once, twice, and I'll say it again. Nowhere in my post did I put my opinion as Naruto's opinion.
I WASN'T TALKING ABOUT NARUTO'S OPINION IN THE FIRST PLACE. NARUTO'S OPINION HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH MY POST. Where did you even get the idea? That came out of nowhere. I wasn't even discussing about NH or NS in that post either. Just because I have Sakura and Hinata in the same post, it doesn't mean that I'm arguing which one of NH and NS is more canon. If I put on a post about my analysis on Sakura's battle skills and Hinata's battle skills, then they are just analysis of battle skills that have nothing to do with who Naruto will choose and his opinion about them. If I put on a post about my analysis on Sakura's personality and Hinata's personality, then they are just analysis of their personality that have nothing to do with who Naruto will choose and his opinion about them. My analysis of the way Sakura sacrifices her life, and the way Hinata sacrifices her life is just that. An analysis of how these two sacrifice their life, and that has nothing to with who Naruto will choose and his opinion about them.

My post was solely dedicated on how Ianalyze Sakura and Hinata's sacrifices.

Please stop putting words in my mouth(or should I say post?).
If I say, "Temari is a hottie!", are you going to say "Naruto never stated that Temari was hot. We don't even know what Naruto's opinion of Temari is." ?
If I say, "Sasuke is much more handsome than Naruto in part two!" are you going to say, "Sakura never stated that she thought Sasuke was more handsome than Naruto in part two. We don't even know what Sakura's opinion of Sasuke's face is." ?
PLEASE. THESE. ARE. JUST. MY. OPINIONS.

BECAUSE I WASN'T TALKING ABOUT NARUTO'S OPINION. Thank you very much.

Edited by ramenanmitsu, 27 December 2012 - 03:31 PM.

[Codus N]

I'm sorry. Naruto came off as so weak here that. I don't care if Neji died. Obito is the bastard that killed him and Naruto's willing to submit to that? I'd feel better if Obito made a better case, but he hasn't. His case that reality sucks is made solely by the fact that he is making reality suck for everyone, so thus must submit to his alternate reality where, trust him, it doesn't suck? Bah.

I hope I read that wrong.

Actually, MS has a better translation in this regard:

http://mangastream.c...ruto/26074227/7

When you consider everything, Obito had the same dream as Naruto. To be Hokage so that he'd be acknowledged. Much like Naruto, Obito has been seeking acknowledgement when he was young. And it would seem that Rin may have very well been the first person to acknowledge him. When Rin died, Obito fell down into a spiral of hopelessness because Rin was the first person who ever acknowledged him in his entire life. It would be like Naruto seeing Iruka get killed in front of his eyes.

In fact, I think Rin was the only person who acknowledged him up until that point. Kakashi was at best implied, but he never outright acknowledged Obito to his face. So, losing the only person he loved and the only person who truly treated Obito more than an Uchiha who was expected to be elite drove him off the deep end. I think this is what makes his downfall much more understandable.

[Nate River]

Naruto's weakness is wanting a world where everything is sunshine and puppies all the time. It doesn't really surprise me that he would consider Obito's dreamie dream uber good dream world as a possibility after seeing something very horrible and devastating such as death of a friend in front of him. I believe this is also part of the newest movie, Naruto considering staying in a dream world because things are in some ways better there than in his real world? Recurring element of his character, I'd say. I have to admit, thought, that I think Neji really didn't seem that important to Naruto. Sasuke, Sakura, Kakashi, Jiraiya... Death of characters like that would have made Naruto considering O's offer more realistic.

It just bothers me because submitting to Obito specifically means trusting him that it'll be as he says, and there is absolutely no reason to do that. In fact, Obito continues to give him reasons not to. Not just different characters, it would be easier to accept if he couldn't directly pin the tragedies pushing him to consider to Obito then he could use Obito as the escape the way Obito accept Madara path as an escape. I wasn't high on that scene either, but at least then he wouldn't be trusting and walking into the arms of the person who, without doubt, is the one who wronged him.

Of couse, I find Obito complete destitable, so it's possible I'm not being completely fair.

Actually, MS has a better translation in this regard:

http://mangastream.c...ruto/26074227/7

When you consider everything, Obito had the same dream as Naruto. To be Hokage so that he'd be acknowledged. Much like Naruto, Obito has been seeking acknowledgement when he was young. And it would seem that Rin may have very well been the first person to acknowledge him. When Rin died, Obito fell down into a spiral of hopelessness because Rin was the first person who ever acknowledged him in his entire life. It would be like Naruto seeing Iruka get killed in front of his eyes.

In fact, I think Rin was the only person who acknowledged him up until that point. Kakashi was at best implied, but he never outright acknowledged Obito to his face. So, losing the only person he loved and the only person who truly treated Obito more than an Uchiha who was expected to be elite drove him off the deep end. I think this is what makes his downfall much more understandable.

It is better (but doesn't change my basic point, Obito is still effectively making his case by making reality unbearable himself there is no reason to believe he doesn't posses the power to do the same in dream land), and while I don't personally find it persuasive, that is not what really irritates me. It's his willingness to depend upon the word of the one who is currently murdering his friends.

[fireandice]

Naruto's weakness is wanting a world where everything is sunshine and puppies all the time. It doesn't really surprise me that he would consider Obito's dreamie dream uber good dream world as a possibility after seeing something very horrible and devastating such as death of a friend in front of him. I believe this is also part of the newest movie, Naruto considering staying in a dream world because things are in some ways better there than in his real world? Recurring element of his character, I'd say. I have to admit, thought, that I think Neji really didn't seem that important to Naruto. Sasuke, Sakura, Kakashi, Jiraiya... Death of characters like that would have made Naruto considering O's offer more realistic.

I actually think Obito's comment was Kishi's nod to the Road to Ninja movie. Or conversely speaking, the entire RtN movie was a sort of conceptual branch out of Obito's delusional genjutsu plan

While I agree Neji isn't the CLOSEST person to Naruto I think most people would be quite traumatised if one of their friends gets stabbed right in front of you and dies in your arms. Especially since Neji sacrificed himself FOR Naruto. I think it was more a moment of shock, really. Naruto always had this boundless optimism, and to an extent he's never had to see a real war like Kakashi or the Sannin's generation did until now.

[Poison_In_Your_Coffee]

I also do not understand why you seem to think that there is some competetion between Hinata and Sakura. There is not. Hinata can have her moment to shine and Sakura can have hers. Sakura not being the one to help Naruto this time does not erase all those moments earlier in the manga where she helped and supported him. Hinata helping Naruto and the possible NH do not in any way make Sakura useless or destroy her character. Hinata also hasn't taken Sakura's place, because Sakura has never wanted a place by Naruto's side. Sakura is perfectly content, as far as we know, to help Naruto along with everybody else without wanting anything more with him.