549 replies to this topic

[Tsuki Hoshino]

Eeeeh I used to be involved in the clerith/Clot debates....they were pretty vitriolic, Clerith even had a legit forum, and super secret sub tags where they BASHED actual individuals on the opposing side. And that was back in like 1998...to this very day.

Their site was like fort knox on constant lock down from outsiders.

The Naruto Fandom is just the 2nd coming of ff7's and soon there will be a third and even bloodier battle in the future.

[rocci]

@teuki hoshino
It doesn't make Confucius the problem on why Japan has decline birth rate.
It's the problem for female inequality and has nothing to do with birth rate.

That's why there are no correlation between Confucius with birth rate decline.
Because if that's the problem then the same thing will happen in the other country with the same conservative value.

No it's like me blaming science as the cause of environmental problem.

Human equality will happen sooner or latter.

[rocci]

I think the problem with ff7 pairing : there are no canon pairing.

Even when I think cloudxtifa as the pairing.

[James S Cassidy]

Eeeeh I used to be involved in the clerith/Clot debates....they were pretty vitriolic, Clerith even had a legit forum, and super secret sub tags where they BASHED actual individuals on the opposing side. And that was back in like 1998...to this very day.

Their site was like fort knox on constant lock down from outsiders.

The Naruto Fandom is just the 2nd coming of ff7's and soon there will be a third and even bloodier battle in the future.

Then along came the social media sites....Myspace, facebook, twitter, tumblr....and it all went down hill.

What makes me laugh so much hard is that  I actually checked out some of the Cloud and Aerith sites and most of them complain and accuse Cloud and Tifa fans of being bashers and "disgusting people." One time I even said "But, aren't you guys doing the exact same thing?" Oh the hate I got. I even got accused of being a Cloti fan (Cloud and Tifa) and told to go die in hell and that I should have my head cut off and the like.

For the record, I have no shipping preference in FF7. I am more a Squall and Rinoa fan from FF8, but they didn't like my logic and banned me almost instantly for "causing a rukus."

It's...strange how the culture has changed. People are really violent and bloody thirsty if you even dare challenge their views and prove them wrong.

Them: "Cloud and Aerith forever"
Me: "Umm, isn't Aerith dead?
Them: "Shut up, Cloud will love her forever, dead or not."
Me: "Okay, I can see Cloud being in love with Aerith, but he could move on to Tifa if he wanted. The ending sure leaves it open that way."
Them: "SHUT UP. Cloud will always remain faithful. He has to otherwise he would be a bad man from moving on."
Me: "Wait, didn't Aerith used to be in love with a guy named Zack?"
Them: "Yeah, but he died and she moved on"
Me: "Isn't that her being unfaithful by your standards? So Aerith can move on, but Cloud can't? Isn't that a double standard? What if Aerith only loved Cloud because she reminded him of Zack and she wasn't actually in love with him."
Them: "I TOLD YOU TO SHUT UP. CLOUD NEEDS TO ALWAYS LOVE AERITH PERIOD.GO TO HELL CLOTI FAN."
Me: "What? Cloti?"
Them: "Cloud and Tifa. You're a Cloud and TIfa fan."
Me: "ummm no? I actually don't care for couples in FF7. In fact, you can choose who you want Cloud to be with technically. I can make him date Garrett which is actually a pretty funny stor-"

Them: "OMFG. GET OFF MY CHANNEL, CLOTI FAN."
Me:"I am not a Cloti fan. I am a Squall and Rinoa fan."
Them: "That is what all Cloti fans say"

True story conversation.

 

Edited by James S Cassidy, 28 February 2016 - 05:21 AM.

[Tsuki Hoshino]

...Rocci, the correlation should be clear. Women are peessured/ treated badly by a society built on confuciast values and expectations, thus they seek freedom from said values and doing so means nor falling into the trap that is marriage+family in their eyes.

In order to NOT have those expectations placed on them as mothers and wives they simply DO NOT become mothers and wives.

I feel like you desperately want to view Confucinism in the most positive light you can without aknowledging how unfair it is towards women.

If the way women are treated in Japan makes them not want to marry and have kids is the result of its teachings, how is Confucinism not at fault?

Your logic is faulty. The same thing won't happen in a different country if their conditions are not exactly the same and the people are not the same. One does not equal the other.

[Tsuki Hoshino]

Then along came the social media sites....Myspace, facebook, twitter, tumblr....and it all went down hill.
What makes me laugh so much hard is that...XD I actually checked out some of the Cloud and Aerith sites and most of complain and accuse Cloud and Tifa fans of being bashers and "disgusting people." One time I even said "But, aren't you guys doing the exact same thing?" Oh the hate I got. I even got accused of being a Cloti fan (Cloud and Tifa) and told to go die in hell and that I should have my head cut off and the like.
For the record, I have no shipping preference in FF7. I am more a Squall and Rinoa fan from FF8, but they didn't like my logic and banned me almost instantly for "causing a rukus."
It's...strange how the culture has changed. People are really violent and bloody thirsty if you even dare challenge their views and prove them wrong.Them: "Cloud and Aerith forever"Me: "Umm, isn't Aerith dead?Them: "Shut up, Cloud will love her forever, dead or not."Me: "Okay, I can see Cloud being in love with Aerith, but he could move on to Tifa if he wanted. The ending sure leaves it open that way."Them: "SHUT UP. Cloud will always remain faithful. He has to otherwise he would be a bad man from moving on."Me: "Wait, didn't Aerith used to be in love with a guy named Zack?"Them: "Yeah, but he died and she moved on"Me:"Isn't that her being unfaithful by your standards? So Aerith can move on, but Cloud can't? Isn't that a double standard? What if Aerith only loved Cloud because she reminded him of Zack and she wasn't actually in love with him."Them: "I TOLD YOU TO SHUT UP. CLOUD NEEDS TO ALWAYS LOVE AERITH PERIOD.GO TO HELL CLOTI FAN."Me: "What? Cloti?"Them: "Cloud and Tifa. You're a cloud and TIfa fan."Me: "ummm no? I actually don't care for couples in FF7. In fact, you can choose who you want Cloud to be with technically. I can make him date Garrett which is actually a pretty funny stor-"
Them: "OMFG. GET OFF MY CHANNEL, CLOTI FAN."Me:"I am not a Cloti fan.  am a Squall and Rinoa fan."Them: "That is what all Cloti fans say"
True story conversation.

Lmao I know that feel...I mean they were just OVER the top...debating them was literally the most fun because you could RUN mental circles around most of them. And they had like the CRAZIEST theories. " omg like aerith lives in Cloud's head so even tho she's dead they are together always!"

Umm wat? So basically Aerith became some sort of mental parasite... (when in fact canon STATES she's in the life stream and at some point will lose her individuality)



And then SE came out and was like "yeaa...cloti is canon guys." And Cleriths still, even now will have none of it. THAT FF7 REMAKE IS GONNA BE SO GUD!

The war will continue for another 20 years

Edited by Tsuki Hoshino, 28 February 2016 - 05:50 AM.

[BlackBird19]

@rocci

Both China and The Republic of Korea are having issues with low birthrates. It's actually happening in a lot of Asia. Japan's just seen as the most affected. To maintain a population the birthrate must 2.1 births per woman. Japan's is 1.2 China is 1.6 and falling South Korea is 1.23 and Taiwan is 1.15.

[James S Cassidy]

Lmao I know that feel...I mean they were just OVER the top...debating them was literally the most fun because you could RUN mental circles around most of them. And they had like the CRAZIEST theories. " omg like aerith lives in Cloud's head so even tho she's dead they are together always!"

Umm wat? So basically Aerith became some sort of mental parasite... (when in fact canon STATES she's in the life stream and at some point will lose her individuality)



And then SE came out and was like "yeaa...cloti is canon guys." And Cleriths still, even now will gave none of it. THAT FF7 REMAKE IS GONNA BE SO GUD!

The war will continue for another 20 years

Indeed. Didn't the Final Fantasy 7 Advent Children movie also confirm that Cloud and Tifa became a couple? I know the whole point of that movie was Cloud hung up on Aerith's death, but she kept saying that he needed to move on. That he had to stop blaming himself for her death.

You also have the Highwind scene in the game if you have a high enough Tifa affection. So in essence, you can basically choose who Cloud loves. This is why I said "He first fell in love with Aerith, but then moved on to Tifa after she passed away." This way both sides win.

Edited by James S Cassidy, 28 February 2016 - 05:52 AM.

[Tsuki Hoshino]

Indeed. Didn't the Final Fantasy 7 Advent Children movie also confirm that Cloud and Tifa became a couple? I know the whole point of that movie was Cloud hung up on Aerith's death, but she kept saying that he needed to move on. That he had to stop blaming himself for her death.
You also have the Highwind scene in the game if you have a high enough Tifa affection. So in essence, you can basically choose who Cloud loves. This is why I said "He first fell in love with Aerith, but then moved on to Tifa after she passed away." This way both sides win.

Even after the movie where they were like raising kids and living together the Cleriths were insisting it was only as like brothers and sisters then the light novels came out, And case of Tifa has her asking cloud while he's like half asleep if he loves her and he's like "huh wah?" While she back tracks it because theyre having what equated to marital troubles. And like for some reason, it completely goes over Cleriths shippers that the two of them are in the same room together getting ready to go to bed ( together) so either they believe Tifa just makes a habit of lurking over a sleeping cloud and he's not bothered by this in anyway--OR more logically, they are sleeping together....they ignored the more logical conclusion...

The whole issue of what cloud's mourning is made a lot clearer in advent children complete ( it's basically Ac with added scenes and spruced up graphics) he's not crying over SOLELY Aerith, it's over her, Zack, his inability to save anyone he loves, and how him trying to find a cure for Denzel ultimately gets HIM geostigma too. He comes to the point where he sees himself as useless and a burden, so he leaves the home, thinking Tifa and the kids are better off like as he consigns himself to die.

The movie is a lot less indicative of Cleriths feels when you view it in the wider scope, it's a story about Cloud finding his resolve to live, and live with Tifa and the kids, everyone in the end is where they belong Zack with Aerith in the life stream and Cloud back home.


The real nail in that coffin isn't the movie though. It's a little page in an ultimania--where they compile facts and info of the games...where they place Cloud and Tifa with other final fantasy couples on a page titled. "For the one I love."


THE LOLS I could give you over this fandom...remembering the Koi fiasco Im pretty excited to see what the remake brings...will it stay the same, or will it be changed?

Edited by Tsuki Hoshino, 28 February 2016 - 06:19 AM.

[Luna]

Wasn't Clerith kinda one sided on Clouds part?

[Tsuki Hoshino]

Wasn't Clerith kinda one sided on Clouds part?

More like on Aeriths part. During the 1st part of the game where Aeriths is still alive he's not..well. and if you go on the date with the two of then she says something about"wanting to get to know the real Cloud" and then she's killed before the real Cloud wakes up....it's really difficult to love someone you don't really know...the whole point of the emotional impact of Aeriths death is in part the wasted potential of her life. We don't get to know what COULD have been because she's dead.

There are also hints that she was only originally attracted to Cloud because of the Zack mannerisms he copied due to the reunion protocol. ( man I love this game....it managed to much story...)

Cloud in disk 1 where you rack up the love points with your chosen lady, turns out to not be you at all, YOU as you are controlling Cloud are in fact the puppet of jenova.

In disk 2 Cloud wakes up and you no longer chose for him.

It was all one big ass red herring.

Edited by Tsuki Hoshino, 28 February 2016 - 06:36 AM.

[HalfDemonInuyasha]

Just wanna say that after reading this entire forum, (I was bored), I see that others agree with me about Mr. Rock Lee being a HUGE missed opportunity, wasted potential, and a character that could've very easily been the main character of another story. It honestly brings a tear to my eye and makes me giddy.

#TeamRockLee #TheGreatest

Lee really better fits the underdog motif than Naruto ever did, IMO. Right from the beginning, it was pretty clear that Kurama was going to be one of those deus ex machina crutches for Naruto unless the writing was just that good and surprised me (hint: it didn't). On the other hand, Lee really did have virtually nothing in terms of the shinobi profession, but he still managed to get past it with little more than hard work and dedication, and the support and faith of Gai. If you were to take Lee's condition that prevented him from being able to use Ninjutsu or Genjutsu and applied it to pretty much any of the other Rookies, it's pretty clear that they would not be able to hack it, much less keep on trying to fight through it like Lee did, especially ones like Naruto and Sasuke.

 

-bigger sigh-

The important thing to remember is that anime in America didn't start out with Naruto. It actually started with shows like Dragonball Z, Sailor Moon, and maybe even Gigantor, Voltron, and Speed Racer. Maybe even Astro boy.  Anime has been on American television since long before the 90s, but nothing really picked up until 1997 when Dragonball Z made the scene in America. That being said...nobody really cared amount the romance aspect of these shows. Mostly because we were too young to understand what love and sex was. We loved action and Dragonball Z was action. It was basically the Micheal Bay of Anime. We didn't know anything about story, but as long as things blew up we were happy.

Somewhere along the lines we lost something and we stopped caring about even the explosions and more about romance. One thing that remains common is that people focused on one aspect of a show and disregarded everything else. Did it strike anybody as odd that some things just to seem magically go into place in DBZ? No. Did it cross anyone's mind on how stupid Goku was at times or how plot convenience lead the way? No. Most of probably didn't know that they changed Goku as a character in the original run to be more like Superman because they felt that the original intention wasn't really showing Goku as a true hero, but instead as just a reckless fighter.

And this was all long before the internet was as expansive as it was. So what changed? Was it the internet and all the porn and social media that changed the way people thought? Was it the way people grew up believing that having the perfect man or women was the only way one can be successful? Was it that the generation that started watching DBZ grew up to focus on that one aspect type thinking, but change that aspect to love affair instead of action? (Come to think of it, how many times did people talk about how awesome fight scenes were in Naruto? Not many and they were, for the most part, pretty bland. People mostly talked about who was gonna end up with whom?)

Even bigger question is how can these people be self-inserts when they are nothing like the characters in the show? Most pro-Hinata fans I know are nowhere near her character type...and far from being the "loyal women" that they supposedly love about her. Thinking about it, I laugh at the idea that some maybe be neo-feminists claiming women should have more rights and call men evil, but praise a women in anime whose entire life revolves around the wills of one man.

So where, along the point between 1997 and 2014 did the anime fanbase just lose all sight of itself? There was always shipping and pairing wars, but they were never this bad. The worst at the time used to be Cloud and Aerith vs Cloud and TIfa fans and even then they weren't that much...or were they?

Perhaps the internet is what caused the downfall by giving even the people that don't deserve it a voice.
 

 

 

Ever forget the reason why you got into Naruto in the first place? I do. Was it because of the potential or because I actually liked it? Maybe because it reminded me of my DBZ days waiting for episodes every week.

I don't know. I just can't remember anymore.

I feel like some of the former NH fans who are saying now "Why did we love Hinata in the first place?" I guess after all that has happened I just set my expectations too high. My rose-colored glasses got the better of me, not all is bad. I am watching more diverse anime now and some are far more amazing. Overlord, One Punch man, Black Lagoon, Black Bullet, Hellsing Ultimate, and so much more.

I even still go back and remember my older anime memories like Cowboy Bebop, Outlaw Star, Ruroni Kenshin, and such. Man I could watch Ruroni Kenshin for hours and not get bored of it.

Same here...

As I look back, I do wonder what exactly made me keep going after I read the first few chapters...

And man, Outlaw Star...such an underrated anime, IMO. Kenshin and Cowboy Bebop I see brought up and/or talked about all the time, but Outlaw Star? Nada. Who wouldn't want a gun capable of firing magical spells packed into bullets, including magical black holes and such (even if such more powerful ones drain your life with each use)?

[NeonRanger]

The Clerith and Cloti wars are still horrible even today, just not as bad as Naruto but still bad. There was also the HP shipping wars. It's sad how paring wars get bad enough were death threats and hacking are involved. In the end it's all fiction, they aren't real.

 

Shipping wars for Naruto didn't got bad until late 2007 from my eyes, and even then it wasn't too problematic. I remember being a Naruto fan when my first episode was the middle of the Wave Arc. When I had a YT account and was making mediocre AMVs, I saw a mixture of anti-SS/NH with NS, and vice versa from NH/SS. Then I saw clubs being formed (Anti) and more people creating shipping groups, and it wasn't bad at first. People got into debates, but in the end they agree to disagree, shook hands, and move on. And on rare occasions, they even reach agreements on some points. But the shipping wars in Naruto were friendly. All of a sudden the war became spiteful and there was foreboding tension, shipping wars were okay, but you can easily tell that on chapter and things can go south. I saw that 615 was the breaking point from what I saw. NH became more arrogant, we lost a lot of NS shippers from that chapter , and SS were happy that they got a fighting chance again. Since then, from clubs and forums every chapter since than people were focused only on shipping hints. And when there was a moment people would shove it in each other's faces. People started ignoring each other's opinion and just cursed out each other. It only got worse from then. The minute you say you're this shipper, on tumblr you're blocked without question. 

[NeonRanger]

For some reason I can't edit my post, so sorry for double posting. But Naruto manage to be just one of many and futures of where the fans dictate where the story would go. NH might be in the minority, but general Naruto fans don't give a crap either. I meet most who didn't like the ending, but carried very low standards to were the ending was okay. I meet a Sasuke fan at con years who was only happy about the ending because Sasuke is alive, other than that he hates it. Than during a con, I meet another person who was disappointed, but he stopped reading since Itachi vs. Sasuke and contained buying the manga for the sake of collection. A classmate who I do volunteer with, her brother doesn't read the manga, but watches/ buys the anime, when I tried to speak to him about the ending, he shrugged and told me "so?". 

 

Honestly from what I've seen, the Naruto fandom has the most unpassionate fans I've seen. Including the JP. They might have hated the Last, but when it comes to SNS, they are willing to go lengths for this ship. This ship was just as one-sided as NH, and Naruto mentioned more than once that he likes girls. It's also just as abusive as SS, yet the only difference is that Naruto hits Sasuke. What? Then you have fans who only continue the sake of reading for one character. 

 

 

another couple of interviews came out. There not too important though. If you can find it, it's in NF in the New Era Movie section. One involved an interview with Kishi's mother in law. Sadly no one cared enough to interview the whole thing, from what was said there was no drama potential in it, but when Kishi showed, he talked about how happy he is now from making a weekly series and after going to his honeymoon. The lastest on talked about his future work, but from that he mentioned how he's done with Naruto and how being a mangaka was fun but tiring. He more intrested in new works now. He talked about Mario after that.

 

The two interviews weren't interesting at all, but it gave a hinting fact that Kishi is truly done with Naruto. And by that I mean he fully gave his work for his editors to do a part 3 and he takes profit it will make. 

[Bail o' Lies]

It got bad because after 2007 because of hinata's confession. I don't feel like checking but that scene that happened by 2007-8. Beforehand in the nH fans pitied and empathize with hinata and wanted her to get with Naruto. (The radical fans were still the same but they were more minor back then and ignorable.) But since hinata didn't have many scene of relevance back then it was more wishing kishi would do more with her. Then the confession happened and the nH fans were convince that nH will happened, that it must happen. Then they increasingly became more smug entitled and toxic.Their desire became demands and their wishes became entitlement.

 

As for how dispassionate they became about it. People have for years said everything about Naruto is crap, and kishi is a crappy writer. That eventually became the mainstream opinion of Naruto along with Sakura is a slutty kitten and Naruto must end up with Hinata. Fans just accepted these without putting any critical thought into the story and just stop caring about that story in general. It became simply habit to be a fan of Naruto. NS were probably some of the few fans left that had any passion left in the story, the characters, or the series in general. With us gone all that's left in Naruto are the people that use the character as basis for their sexual fantasies. SS: girl wants the sexy bad boy. nH: Boys want to punish the girl that friend-zoned them and get a sexy girl that is completely obedient and devoted to them. Girl wanted to get their man that they deserve and beat the kitten that is stealing their man. SNS: Guys want to kitten the sexy hot bad boy. Girls want the sexy hot bad boy to have sex with another hot guy.

Edited by Bail o' Lies, 28 February 2016 - 02:14 PM.

[db84x]

@ Touken, Neon & James

Because Naruto cool so they follow Naruto,  current Naruto Fandom won't even brother with story at  all.  I understand your sorrow saw current fandom condition, but what you expect ? Naruto story build for impress kid and preteen not adult like seinen.

 

@ Tsuki

Isn't what you done paint NS into ignorant western fans like what Kishi want all along ?  But thanks for your help without ignorant western fans stereotype, it will be hard stop neutral jump into NS.

 

@ Bail

Actually its not about shipping but its about people hatred to abusive tsundere troupe, and NS is prominent example of it.

Edited by db84x, 28 February 2016 - 03:10 PM.

[rocci]

@neon ranger
It's not the editor who will make burito, but his assistance and the writer of naruto novel.

[Tsuki Hoshino]

@ Touken, Neon & James
Because Naruto cool so they follow Naruto,  current Naruto Fandom won't even brother with story at  all.  I understand your sorrow saw current fandom condition, but what you expect ? Naruto story build for impress kid and preteen not adult like seinen.
 
@ Tsuki
Isn't what you done paint NS into ignorant western fans like what Kishi want all along ?  But thanks for your help without ignorant western fans stereotype, it will be hard stop neutral jump into NS.
 
@ Bail
Actually its not about shipping but its about people hatred to abusive tsundere troupe, and NS is prominent example of it.

Explain to me how I have painted western fans as being "ignorant" and how YOU haven't just thrown out satemen's's as facts without evidence.


Find me statistical Data that breaks down the conservative/liberal values of Naruto fans in both Eastern society AND the west

Oh wait you can't

In fact you might want to explain EVERYTHING you just said because it makes no sense.

[db84x]

@ Tsuki

Naruto focus group isn't adult but kid and preteen, that why Naruto fandom eager to eliminate NS because they hate your preach about heavy topic.  People run to Naruto for take refuge from real world, not for hear your peach about feminist, equality and etc.

 

Btw do you already forgot what you recently type ? Rocci tried to stop you from enter minefield with holding NS banner.  Why until now you never learn why Kishi purge on NS got anonymously agreement form whole fandom ?

Edited by db84x, 28 February 2016 - 05:09 PM.

[Tsuki Hoshino]

@ Tsuki

Naruto focus group isn't adult but kid and preteen, that why Naruto fandom eager to eliminate NS because they hate your preach about heavy topic.

 

People run to Naruto for take refuge from real world, not for hear your peach about feminist, equality and etc.

MOST Naruto fans, who followed it from beginning to end, are probably somewhere in the adult, young adult bracket--and therefore can handle heavy subject matter, and again you are stating PERSONAL opinion as fact. 

Do you have proof that the reason the Fandom hates NS is because "I" apparently "preach" about heavy topics and somehow single handedly drive them to do so? ( i'm pretty flattered that you think my influence is so great, thanks glad you like me so much.) 

You act as though Narusaku shippers are the only ones who deal/preach in HEAVY topic matters, and are the only ones who overly analyze the source material. EVERY Naruto fan who is heavily involved in the fandom does this, so why exactly are you so pissy about NS shippers doing it?

Explain the logic behind "NS shippers just preach/make too much sense/talk too much about heavy topics, so the rest of the Fan's hate them for that!" Because it sounds dumb. I am beginning to wonder if you are going OUT of your way to insult the fandom at large. 

Also, your thing about Tsundere's being hated is lol worthy.

Are they hated in Japan where they are basically cultural tropes and every other female character is one? again, differences in east to west. Hell there are Tsundere's that are popular here in the U.S, Like Asuka Langely. Being a Tsundere does not mean you will be automatically hated.