Krisk, I have to disagree, Korra is not utterly alone, remember in EP8, Korra was in all her lonesome sobbing when the crew showed up to lift her spirits? As long as those 3 are there she is not all alone. And also, let's give some credit to old man Tenzin, eh?
I was hoping someone would call me out on my blatant disregard for that "Team Avatar" display in EP08.
okay look, you and I both know it's solely up to the audience to respond to how the narrative is being presented. No matter how weak or strong the foundation for characterization is, it's up to the audience to decide if they like it or not, buy it or not. That said, your countering my statement tells me you've accepted what Bryke has given us, but I personally cannot.
when Bolin said "Team Avatar," I was confused. When Mako agreed, I was disappointed. When they all took off together to play vigilantes, I was like meh whatever. This is how they want me to believe that Korra's team exists? They decide that it's time to go "take down some equalists" and do it themselves, being self-appointed superheroes, with their own Avatarmobile?
give me a break. They were playing make-believe upon a foundation that's purely fantastical. I didn't
feel what made them a team, I was just merely told that they were - which is probably the worst way to convince your audience of anything. From what I've seen so far, the characters by themselves lack the sufficient amount of believable conviction to be appropriately perceived as the new Team Avatar. They can't really be a team without first believing in what the team is there to do, what makes the team, and what it takes to make up each piece of it.
don't get me wrong, I love that they comforted Korra on her insecurities and the belief that she's a failure (she's not, but when the standards are set so high by the previous Avatar, she's allowed to think that) - but that was only then. They had NO idea she's been feeling this the whole time, and it was only because she outright TOLD them what she was feeling did they show support. If Bryke wanted me to believe that they actually had her back, that they've been there with her from the beginning (what makes Team Avatar) - if not, were truly aware of what Korra's going through - they would have built the foundation less on unresolved in-group conflict and more on lasting in-group progress.
I admit, sure, Mako and Bolin have shown sympathy but they just don't have the stake of the total conflict like Tenzin and Lin do. They're there for her, not for The Avatar (she wants to be the Avatar she's meant to be, and they need to realize this). For them to be an actual entity within the Team, they have to (Mako is showing a higher stake, I guess) recognize Korra as a bigger piece in the game, not just "their friend." That said, I'll give you friends - but when I said "alone" I meant in the bigger scheme of life, in her destiny, so I can't give you team. (hell, now that I think about it, Korra's more of a friend to them than they are to her - sucks)
oh and haha, sure I'll admit defeat and agree that Tenzin and Lin are there and help make up what Team Avatar should be. Tenzin, Lin, Korra (and Asami if she wasn't dating Mako) would make up Team Avatar, this time around. The probending bros need some serious work in character arcs - especially Bolin. If I were to compare their roles to those that are similiar, I'd say they're like what the airbabies are to Korra - there for Korra, just
there and not for The Avatar, and for The Avatar's fight.
Team Avatar with adults (yeah I know, baaaw where's my peermance!) doesn't have that same umph, but I'll take what I can get, by this point.
And about the shippings...
So much truth in all you said. Korra and Asami are just too good
and hawt for Mako. That guy get's more attention then he deserves. So, at least for me, Makorra is dead, while Masami still holding on a straw due to relationship obligations, otherwise, it would be dead as well. But we all know how is going to end, hummm?
hm, well after watching EP09, Makorra isn't looking as COMPLETELY abysmal as it was prior to this ep, but it's not looking too hot either. It's tainted as long as Masami stays afloat, and that's bad news for an endgame romance. It'll taste ... wrong, you know?
regardless, Korrasami is truth and I shall dump pictures.
I apologize. I miss-represented the matter I was trying to convey. I didn’t mean consequence in terms of a justice-system overseen by an existing government, but more so the punishment doled out by the Avatar. You do bring up an interesting observation. In the entirety of the first series, while we see that there are supermax facilities for war captives, there doesn’t seem to ever be any mention of capital punishment. Nor any signs that it exists. Whether this was a side-effect of A.T.L.A. being a show on a children’s network or the show was designed with this form of thinking for the governments represented I’m not sure. I’m inclined to think the first reason influenced the second. Even with the Fire nation it seems Ozai would rather keep his captives alive so that once he became overlord, he’d still have the same number of people to oversee. But this is simply conjecture and is off-set by the fact that he was going to fly around the entire world burning everything in its path (which would include innocent people and probably future subjects). But the question is do I think the death sentence exists as a justice-system given penalty in their world. Yes, I do. But as with any monarchial society in our history, death was probably doled out based on what the King-figure decreed. In this case Zuko probably took the “high road” and decided to keep his father alive in order to a) get info on his mama (which I’m still upset was simply dangled in front of us here) and b) to represent a new way of doing things, a more merciful one; a regime opposite that which his father’s ways represented. This also seems to clue to the fact that Ozai probs had people “capped in the a”.
No no, haha, I'm well aware of your convections. I merely responded with that maelstrom of questioning and tangentivity because it reminded me of Aang's decision, in particular. You mentioned Avatars and now that Aang's doing Avatar-y things left and right, I figure I might as well ask!
Hm, well it may be me inserting myself into Ozai's mindset, but perhaps he was trying to garner sympathy by keeping the firebenders alive - at least in the beginning? I mean he was promoting firebending blood as deserving of totalitarian rule over the world, why not convince his civilians by keeping firebenders of "all makes" alive? Or maybe it was what you said, and he just wanted to add more to his inventory. I think it's more likely the latter, since Ozai wasn't all that inventive with his power.
And to my question. yeah, It would make more sense to just believe the death sentence takes place, since it's definitely a standard procedure in ethical finality. Spiritual or not, bender or non-bender, death ends a wicked individual (not necessarily stops the individual's influence, but it does end the individual from personally doing more). I was mostly speaking about civilian court, and not so much Avatar/Royalty business (i.e., Ozai) but Ozai was mentioned so I guess I can't blame you for exemplifying him.
speaking of Mr. Phoenix King, I wish Zuko had been more... personal with his father. I know that he wanted to set an example of merciful judgment, but the dude was the Hitler equivalent of the Avatarverse. I know Aang's decision is slathered with individualistic goals and aspirations and "make your own destiny!" and yadda yadda but I can't get over the fact that they let the man live.
Aang's stake was selfish (I said it, come at me) and Zuko's was naive. You think Ozai would spill? I mean, yes, I get Zuko was desperate, and Ozai might have been the last chance he ever got in finding his mother, but he should have known just who his father was. The man's a sadist, regardless of being incarcerated and completely incapable of doing anything that would better his situation, he absolutely LOVED the fact that he still held power over his son. He's utterly beaten, stripped of what his family considered privledge of being alive and he STILL had power. They didn't fully win against him, they pushed him down - and while pride is a firebender's namesake, Ozai was content with never relinquishing Zuko from his personal hell.
In terms of his mother, Zuko shouldn't have played on his father's stage, on his father's terms - he should have gotten revenge and found his mother himself. Maybe Ursa would have come back, knowing Zuko reigned - anything to not give Ozai the satisfaction. And in terms of a more "merciful regime" - idk, is chi-rape and solitary incarceration really more merciful than death? I know Ozai, being a genocidal bastard, wouldn't deserve such an easy way out, but like I mentioned before, I really believe he lived enjoying the rest of his life. That's not justice, that's some warped consolation alternative. I may be biased, but it's just frustrating.
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Now that you mention it, no one other than Tenzin (and probably the cast from series one) seemed to know about this technique. Aang seems to be a very forthcoming person and probably did tell the adults (Katara’s father/ the White Lotus gang) about this and it may have been them who deemed the subject too controversial to make public. But also keep in mind, I don't think Aang felt the need to say "We won! I defeated the fire lord. Oh, BTW I spirit-bended him if anyone even wants to know how I did it." Honestly, I don't think there was a need to explain how, people were probably okay with the fact that he was defeated and started the process of healing and rebuilding. If anyone other than those close to Aang found out it was probably simply through word of mouth if Ozai didn't have enough pride left to hide the fact that he was emasculated. I’ll have to go back and see if there are hints that anyone other than Tenzin and the Anti-Benders knew that sprit-bending existed.
lol, I know you're being facetious, but still, that's not quite what I meant about Aang's reveal. I envisioned it towards a more worldwide declaration, full of closure and substance. A full explanation of what happened so as to involve the people completely - leaving no room for doubt, no room for manipulation, no room for anger.
and to the people's response, I'd have to disagree. I seriously doubt they
all would lay back and accept the moment of peace so desperately. Evil gives way to pain, which gives way to hate, which gives way for bloodlust. That said, bear with me as a I try to validate outrage as a civilian's response to the lack of information - I'll delve into a bit of roleplaying here to better display my point:
Earth:
I work in a tea shop, regular run of the mill type of thing. My grandmother and I own it, and I spend every single day helping her. We have it kind of rough, with my parents dead because of a fire nation raid on a trading route, but we get by okay. That's my life, for the most part. I heard the Avatar is alive! I'm hoping he comes soon.
He's too late. Fire Nation soldiers invaded prematurely (their expansion is moving faster than expected). My grandmother is dead. Our teashop is ashes. Oh this scar? A firenation soldier gave it to me as a parting gift.
Freedom? The Avatar won?
Fire:
Ozai sentenced my wife to Boiling Rock as life-punishment for not killing a Water Tribe mother's newborn infant. My son is dead for not joining the army. My daughter has gone missing under Fire Lord Azula's reign. She worked as a servant girl in the palace, but I'm not sure what happened. What do I do? I have nothing left.
Liberation? The Avatar won?
Water:
Fire Nation soldiers raided our village yesterday. They burned everything. They took my mother and sister as "rations." They left me alive as a warning.
Victory? The Avatar won?
Earth/Fire/Water:
Ozai isn't dead?
Why?I felt the need to write it out like this to better explain the emotional aspect in this very technical discussion. I know we're talking numbers here, generalizing to find the most viable result BUT I feel like it's impossible to be punctual in this case. Deciding how the people would react is too broad for an experiment group of this sheer size, too intricate to slip underneath a blanket statement. That said, I'm aware of the amount who were starving for peace and time to heal, but there are also those who have a more.. personal stake. Say what you will about vindication, but if I were associated with the types of circumstance that I exemplified above - I'd expect justice and vengeance, at least vicariously through the Avatar.
Furthermore, I feel like it'd be more so Zuko's responsibility to the victims than the Avatar. I get that the Avatar is revered across all nations, but it was the Fire Nation Royal Family - what Zuko represents now, solely - that was the source of the bloody expansion. For instance, you saw in S03 when Aang went to school - the history is so skewed and biased it's horrific. As newely crowned Fire Lord, and aware of the bullsh** within his Family's blood, you think he'd come clean with everything. From the beginning to the end of his father's/sister's reign. He owes it to all the other nations widowed, orphaned, alone - and to his people.
But I digress, I think with what's at stake in the rebirth of the world, Aang's spiritbending technique, imo, would be common knowledge and thus instituted in the court system. I mean, with recent events in mind, he was present in Yakone's trial
and he did spiritbend Yakone in the streets of Republic City - out in the open to civilian eyes. The people knew then, and I'm hoping they knew the day following the end of the Hundred Year War.
(overall, I hypothesize - to skip past this back and forth that may happen - in the end, we'll have to agree to disagree; we've both taken stances completely on the opposite sides of the spectrum that to meet in the middle would prove difficult and abit time-consuming ... nothing we couldn't er,
handle (
) but it's all a matter of how and when, you know?
however! I will answer the next part as best I can, regardless of how the discussion will go)
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Again, based on the fact that the general populace had no previous knowledge of spirit-bending I’m doubtful that the anti-bending movement came as a result of Aang’s decision to spirit-bend Ozai instead of killing him.
While I can see how spirit-bending could lead to greater unrest between benders and non-benders, I believe that it is only now adding fuel to the fire, as a tool for equality in the eyes of non-benders and as a reason to hate non-benders on the side of bender extremists. And though we didn’t see any hints of it in series one, I’m sure the superiority complex that the bad benders had, as well as the fear/hatred of said benders on the anti-bender side was already present. But the anti-benders probably pointed most of their attention and hatred towards the fire nation who seemed to impose their superiority on everything; they were busy fighting and being oppressed by a common enemy.
It is interesting to note though that while many of the prejudices that exist in our society came or come from something new, different or not frequently experienced, that the prejudice in the series comes from something that has always been. Throughout it's history, in all locations of the world, it seems there have always been benders and non-benders living together. For this reason I believe that the folks of the anti-bending sentiment were in the minority, and it was actually the war against the fire nation, compounded on top of all the previous wars and not the discovery of spirit-bending by Aang that spread the prejudice. This is further exacerbated now when Amon appears and gives it focus, a weapon and a means to spread. Even Amon mentions that they are going to spread from Republic city, so it seems that we’re more seeing a beginning to the movement with Amon preying on the fears of non-benders to increase his army than something that came to a fever-pitch as a result of Aang's spirit-bending.
There is so much to discuss on this topic. Especially since I just remembered that there seemed to be a district for non-benders. Was this something that was declared by the council? Were they forced to live in this area or is this just something that naturally happened? If it naturally happened, was it because of an anti-bender mentality? It’s the scene where non-benders are being round up after they turn off the power in one of the districts that houses non-benders.
On the subject of the severity of spirit-bending as compared to death… It is a difficult subject. The first thing I could think of that parallels such an act would be if a serial rapist was turned into a eunuch. You would take away the source of his ability to harm another through the means he has done so repeatedly but even then this is not a direct comparison to spirit-bending as nothing was done to Ozai’s physical body. The subject is as tough to discern the morales and ethics of the death penalty. Which begs the question: who has the right to do it? But it seems in the world of the Avatar, the Avatar is given carte blanche to be the judge. I’m surprised there isn’t a movement against the Avatar itself. I myself believe it was justified and was the best possible solution given the situation and short time to accomplish the defeat of the fire nation.
oh well, in terms of where this all started I think we're saying the same thing. What I implied about Aang's decision wasn't so conclusive on the matter that it was the
complete cause of this societal conflict, just a very important one. This is the part where we'll have to agree to disagree, like aforementioned: I'm treating spiritbending as something more severely as you are (I'm guessing?) and that's the source of our stances. If we can't take the same side on that, we'll just be talking at eachother with no real progress.
on the otherhand, I do agree with that the birth of racism being much more impossible to pinpoint.
I know that the deep-seeted hate, prejudice, overall encompassing fear that non-benders feel was probably started from the get-go (firebenders probably bear the brunt of it, I agree, considering their ancestor's hands are the bloodiest) - it's inevitable. Fear is born from one entity being different from another, and the huge gap in livelihood between an actualized bender with a non-actualized bender was in place from the beginning of the Avatarverse. As soon as the Earth spirit granted this gift unto every single living being with
that set of standards (i.e., if you don't want it enough, you won't be able to bend) the fear set in. Also the superiority complex would probably come hand-in-hand with an individual, regardless of them being "good" or "bad" - it's kind of unavoidable to feel superior when you are obviously at an advantage. It's just up to that certain individual, and the non-bender indirectly affected has less of a choice on the matter - they either react after the bender chooses a "path" or they create a prejudice based on defense-mechanisms prior to said bender taking a stance. So anti-bending is also, just as bad.
regardless, I do like what you said about Amon, if for the reminder of what he's doing and how he's doing it. God he's such an improvement as an antagonist, better than Ozai ever was, even on par with Azula. (makes me nostalgic for that feiry hbic ;_;)
re: segregationI think we know too little to decide, as you're questioning is proving. However if you were to ask me, I'd take the safe route and state that it was mandated by the Council. I'm simply basing this off the fact that it lacks a non-bender representative, and that right there is raising a huge red flag. Why isn't there one? Republic City is supposed to represent a powerful melting-pot, raising non-bender and bender alike and the main cabinet of power doesn't even have all the members it's supposed to. Although as you brought up, it may also be something born from non-bending mentality as a response to this aforementioned fact. I would certainly show some kind of quiet anger by moving out of bending districts, if anything to be cathartic about the inbalance. If the Council is this unfairly homogeneous, I'd probably join the Equalists if push came to shove. Jeez, the problem must have been extremely exacerbated by Tarrlok too. Off-topic abit, as I go on a tangent, but I feel like Amon's moves in this huge chessgame are crazy smart. He's always two steps ahead. Amon could have stepped in to defend his "people" but did he? Nah, he chose to garner more support by letting it happen. And more recently, he let Korra go again, doing two things: 1) proving to his followers that The Avatar is here and she won't make the same mistakes she did in EP04, not again, and 2) His plan to make her the martyr is still in play - Team Avatar needs to realize what Amon is planning before it's too late (i.e., the end of the Avatar Spirit). Kyoshi save us!
re: spirit-bending severityHm, while I do agree that the comparison between spiritbending and death is a messy one, I disagree with it not affecting the body.
It wasn't all that conclusive, I agree, from Ozai but it was
there. He was beaten, utterly. Aang took a huge chunk of his spirit that he was heavily dependent on and you can see it in the way he sat. I know we didn't see any obvious signs of harm, but Ozai looked like had routine torture sessions. And since I am almost certain Zuko wouldn't resort to this, it has to be from what Aang did. If not Ozai, look at Tahno. I was sketchy on the details of how de-bending affects a victim, but after seeing him in the police station I was sold. You may not agree, but I'll be blunt: de-bending is chi-rape. I mentioned it before, and again I'll state that I'm not trying to trivializing actual rape by incorporating it as a comparison point in a cartoon BUT it's there in how Tahno is presented. He looked like a severe PTSD patient: horrifically depressed; glazed eyes; sallow disposition; lethargic movement - he's dead inside, something very natural was stolen from him and he'll never get it back.
that said, I don't think anyone has the right for such an ability. The Avatar, sure an exception to many things as they are an embodiment of a Spirit and the distributor of the ability, should not place such a dangerous judgment alone. This type of thing is worse than death and it shouldn't be even incorporated as the alternative. And as you've decided to side with Aang's in the finale, I'll have to side against him. It can be justified, but simple discussion about it is where I draw the line. The Lion-Turtle gave Aang a god-like power, and it's because of him having humanity that he is unworthy. That also begs the question, where does the line lay, for the Avatar? What if we get a truly evil Avatar? It's possible, it's vessel is indeed human - what happens then? The ramifications are dire and I'd rather be rid of the technique altogether, to be honest.
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I don’t believe that Korra is alone, but I believe she has a smaller supporting cast and a foe that has no physical body nor clear path to defeating, but currently Aang’s friends were miles closer to one another than Korra is with team phoenix. She barely knows them and because of the baggage that comes with their age they’re less open with one another.
I do agree that Korra’s action for curing the prejudice should not be a physical one. And though it won’t be the main antagonist, there probably will be a physical nemesis that she has to Avatar state out of the way.
Yup, as I stated above to Alexander, Korra lacks a foundation that depicts her to be alone to me. I will acquiesce to Tenzin and Lin (and frankly Asami, since she has a direct stake in the matter) but it's not the same as having that "Team Avatar" feel.
eh, honestly, I don't have much hope for Korra doing what we're hoping she'll do. I think Bryke is consistent, and we'll see the Avatar State Wonderball play a heavier role than her politicking will. Although, of course I'll be pleasantely surprised, if she does the latter. Like I said before, if she pulls it off I'll give total recognition to her as a character and her growth, and praise her appropriately.
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I am optimistic of this outcome as the writers of the show so far have never missed the mark, and I’d actually be glad if they took the second series to help Korra develop into the great person she’ll have to be in order to overcome prejudice. I’d be a little perplexed and agitated if her character growth was near completion by the first season’s end.
well actually they're not perfect, imo, with some characters (e.g., Mako sometimes, Bolin completely) but I do agree that Korra's is almost done. Her character growth was supposed to reach completion by the finale. The show was originally going to only have 12 episodes and as something as important as the protagonist's actualization is, I'd be willing to bet that Korra will reach it by the end.
The tweaking I meant was moreso something small, like a small doubt she makes on just how much she's accomplished. For instance, I'd reason to believe that she'll question if Amon really is eradicated from the world (which would be right; the prejudice is still there) and with Amon's uprise in Republic City in mind, maybe they'll travel outside to see just how far his influence has gone. With that doubt manifested, Korra will resolve to continue her involvement as the Avatar - Korra's fight will never be over, but Amon himself will certainly be stopped - one way or another.
ALL of her character growth is just too important not to write into what was originally be the whole show. I don't know how much time Bryke had to change the finale into a cliff-hanger, but I'm sure they had no choice but to leave Korra's character alone - it's too important.
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Lol. You got a lot of info out of my general last sentence there.
I had to go back to see what you were referring to. I believe Korra’s task will be to allay the fears/anger of anti-benders/benders. To show them that their generalization that all (non)benders are bad and must be spirit-bended or imprisoned is not right. And while you’re correct that the snake’s head needs to be cut off, it will start with her changing how both anti-benders and benders who feel superior to non-benders perceive one another. In sucking the venom out you’re still preventing it’s spread throughout the system.
I’m a little confused by what you mean in Korra applying Amon’s values where needed. I think the general idea of Amon, that of change and equality, which he uses to mask his agenda of revenge and ignorant generalization of benders, is what Korra needs to administer not Amon’s specific idealisms, values or judgment.
LOL yeah I kinda ran with it, sorry.
I couldn't help it man! I just saw it build and build and I had to share. Like I said, it maybe be oversimplified, but I did like coming up with it haha.
Oh I know, she'll have to work to demonstrate with some sort of finesse to convince non-bender and benders alike - but that's merely in the aftermath.
My snake allegory works like this (however simplified it may be, it may hinder this explanation, so take it as you will):
- The snake's head needs to be cut off first to cut all power to the rest of the body, to stop and stagnate the presence of one threat. As we've seen with Tarrlok being (unfortunately) taken out of the game, the active bending oppression has been stopped.
- The snakes body, as aforementioned, has ceased to allow the actual snake to do more harm. With the head gone, the body loses it's use. In terms of LoK, with Tarrlok out of power, the bending representation is no longer negative and, as a result, completely with Korra now - which no longer applies to this allegory (I can't really use the snake with her, lol).
- The venom is what the snake spread. It was originally bad news bears, but now that it can't be used as the threat of it dictates - Korra can utilize it, recognize it for what it is and create the "antivenom" (i.e., the opposite which in otherwords is the solution) for the victim. If she doesn't find the problem first and foremost, she has no hope in fixing it.
- The antivenom, as I mentioned just above, is what Korra needs to inject into the victim to counteract what the venom has done. In this case, Korra uses the problem (inequality in politics, for example) to put into motion a solution (equality in power, so a Council with all representations of the United Republic). Broadening upon that, Tarrlok (and Amon, hopefully) will be taken out of the influential mix, and in it's place, a new Council made up of a Fire, Water, Earth, Air, AND a Non-bender representative. The venom -> antivenom works in more ways, and I can list them later if you'd like (although if you take what I've said as an example, I'm sure you can find them yourself).
- And finally the antidote. The antivenom works in subtle ways, concentrating on specific problems instead of the whole conflict, and it merely solves the various factors that contribute to the imbalance of the main-conflict. The antidote, on the otherhand, would be a more encompassing, generalized solution. Korra actively fixing things is the revolution in of itself.
I may have mispoke when I mentioned Amon and his idealism. What I meant was that Amon's revolution is the only thing Korra should be doing. Not the way he's doing it, per se, but only the fact that he's demanding change. Only that, lollll. I'm not an Equalist sleeper-agent, or a terrorist sympathizer don't worry buddy.
OH and quick thing I caught, when I said "sucking out" the venom I meant from the snake's fangs - not the victim's body. It plays into what I meant that countered what you said about Korra fixing this mess. If you suck out the venom from the victim, it does nothing but
maybe prolong the inevitable. Korra needs to suck the venom from the source, manipulate it so it meets the requirements of her goal's to save the world - not try to pull the venom already inside the victim, that'll prove counter-productive and more harmful than good.
Without doing this, Korra will find herself incapable of ultimately doing anything profound to save the world she's now in charge of saving.
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I hadn’t even thought of Koh! I do believe if they went this route it wouldn’t be all that jarring. Especially in a linear plot format. We all know from season one that the Avatar has ties to the spiritual world. And they’d have a lot of next season to explore this concept. It may be more jarring if this were a lone series onto itself, but it has the backdrop of the first series and the established laws of the Avatar to allow for the spirit-world to play a role in the story. And since the society/time period is based off of a Chinese one, I don’t see it being so much of a stretch since spirituality is usually portrayed as being a part of Chinese culture.
OKAY WAIT. I take back what I said, all of it. After recent events involving Amon, I have more than enough reason to believe that something seriously shady is going on here. Bryke has my belief that they're doing something amazing here in the final reveal.
My original thought that the consistency of the progressing plot is lacking in spirituality was merely based on what we'd seen so far. But now that we saw Amon being unaffected by bloodbending, and the fact that OP bloodbenders exist, the spiritual route has more ground and is less jarring than ever before. I'm in agreement, canon-wise - Korra needs to fight fire with fire.
re: Koh
now that I've thrown my belief in the conflict surpassing realism (like it hadn't thus far, but whatever it's badass), the Koh theory is something that I like and will be willing to believe. I'll expand briefly, since it looks like my post is monster-huge already.
The theory falls under Koh's disapproval of humans abusing the ability to bend. With Kuruk's blatant disregard for what being the Avatar meant, Koh decided punishment is in order - he took away the Avatar's happiness, an important motivator for living and the Avatar serious'd the kitten up.
His judgment may solely belong to what the Avatar does, but I wouldn't doubt that he isn't also pissed at what the gift represents nowadays. It's a spectacle, it lacks any semblence of having the unique honor that it used to and is abused as a means for expendable energy, entertainment, or a petty tool for personal gain.
Koh using Amon as a vessel and looking to "rid" the world of bending seems like a fitting punishment, in his mindset, at least. Take away the gift from the undeserving recipient seems like his cup of tea. Not to mention the fact that our Avatar used to show signs of Kuruk-like behavior, in terms of being a Spiritual God Representative, which I'm guessing Koh would have a problem with as well.
Expanding on Amon as a vessel, briefly:
Amon de-bends in a position that is almost the opposite of how Aang does it. When Aang energybends he places his hand on the forehead and heart chakras, whereas Amon places his hand on the forehead and amon point (base of neck, bottom of brain stem iirc). Stealing the corresponding chakra of the head removes a spirit's face, as this theory dictates. Koh is a face-stealer, it translates really well.
And to Amon's gain, we see signs of him "absorbing" the chi from his victim - he is given the ability to take the spirit's face and utilize it himself. Perhaps Amon was taught this by Amon by traveling the Spirit World or Koh is channeling this directly into his vessel. Regardless of how he's doing it, Amon gets what he wants by "purifying" his targets, which also corresponds with Koh's goals.
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LOL. I can’t tell if that was sarcasm as even without the blood-bending playing a role in it they’re already a bunch of loser in being a bunch of yes-men. So I wouldn’t put it passed them to be so terrified of Tarrlok’s blood-bending abilities that they decided to go with what he wants. Which begs the question… are these elected officials? Dear god, I hope they weren’t appointed by Aang. If so, bad Aang! Bad! You know what you did. But I agree. Tarrlok’s character would be diminished of he weren’t just partially right in everything that he said.
LMAO yes they are pretty lame. no1curr about them, Tarrlok was the only one with balls of steel and thus earned my respect. Tenzin you gotta appeal or something! Recount or get rid of the 2/3rds majority! There's only 5 of you! You'll always lose, man! (but seriously, appoint Jinora as your replacement, Meelo as a representative to all things controversial and Lin to growl at the losers, c'monnnn)
and omg I really hope they weren't appointed. I can't see anything special about them, but I guess I can't surmise as to who Aang has met after Ozai's reign. In fact, if they were, idk why Kya isn't at least the Water Tribe representative. Or Katara as an advisor, even. Get some real people in there, jeez.
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This could also work towards him going down the path of Zuko too… where he realizes he was wrong. This would help with the Avatar’s task of alleviating anti-bender sentiments. In cases of prejudice, the best way of winning is to get them to see that their extreme way of thinking is wrong and making an ally out of said enemy.
again following recent events, Amon's Heel Face Turn isn't viable anymore. They got rid of Tarrlok (god I really don't like that they decided to do this - what was the point of everything then?) so now Amon is definitely the main-antagonist. Unfortunate as it is, it has destroyed my hopes in having a "special" end. Ah well, at least we can now speculate on just what Amon is.
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As far as shipping goes, I was actually hoping to have a strong female character that isn’t attached to any form of romance, girl or boy alike. I want it to pass the Bechdel test. And while I do think that Mako is an asshat I can understand his difficulty in deciding between the two. Korra for me anyday, but I can see Asami's allure. But I mean... COME ON! That's not fair! And while Mako's a jerk let's not forget that he grows up to voice uncle Iroh!
Ba-dum ch! See what I did there?
:runs away:
LOL I would have totally been behind Korra being viciously independent, who don't need no man. Like Toph!
omg speaking of, I really hope they don't reveal who she boinked to produce Lin. I much like the theory that Toph, in all her encompassing glory and power, created Lin from the tides of time, the spirit of the world, and the deep rich earth. She sat with her body encased in the earth for 40 days and 40 nights, breathing life into the hbic Lin we have now. Forever canon to me, tbh.
re: Mako
I replied to Fliss below, but I'll say it here - Mako isn't all bad. He's still Prime A Jerk for dating a girl he's not that into and not realizing that his inability to recognize his feelings for the right girl is hurting both, but in EP09, he showed that consistency back from the beginning - I was glad for it and I missed it. He's that mother-hen, first and foremost, and he can't help but to demonstrate his desire to protect - no matter how bad the implications (like with Asami in EP08).
I've given him a hard time - I don't deny this - BUT only because I expect the MC-romance to be good. If one character isn't strong, the whole relationship suffers and I can't praise the overall romance for that.
re: your joke
that's not funny and it makes me sad. :c
Azula is a little special though. But I thought you had to learn seismic sense to sense the earth particles in metal. And Aang also trained with seismic sense.
seismic sense
is the detection of earth particles in metals, among other things, whereas lie-detection is Toph's ability and hers alone. In fact, it's completely unrelated to what seismic sense is supposed to do and it more correlates with Toph's special lifestyle - her knowing people lie is just an off-shoot plus to her "seeing". Being blind is a giant crutch on a fighter, so I don't really fault Bryke for instilling it in their character.
The only two people that MAY be able to learn this is Bumi and Lin - but like I previously mentioned, it wouldn't be a good idea for them to have it; they're too badass already. In more narrative terms, Lin wouldn't have not thought to use it when they were talking with that Equalist defector. If she had the ability, I'd put money on her definitely using it to see if whether or not the dude was lying.
She's the Chief of Police, she's naturally distrustful - if she had the means, she'd make sure her lead was legit before taking it. But in this case she couldn't, so she had no other choice than to follow the bad lead, however shady it seemed.
If I was Korra I would be so frightened of that man(or whatever he is).
I like that you brought this up! She is still scared of him, she's terrified. And I'm so friggin glad they didn't forget this. EP04 would have been lost forever if she outright tried to fight him after she escaped that weird cabin (btw wtf Tarrlok, a creepy cabin in the woods woaaaah)
I'm getting a little annoyed with all the hate for Mako. I don't understand why some people don't want to see him as a character growing that has realistic flaws. When he does the right thing, he gets hate. When he doesn't do the right thing at first but has a good reason (loyalty to Mr. Sato until proven wrong, which afterwards he then mans up and apologizes), he gets hate. At this rate he can't yawn without getting hate. This is as bad as it was when Asami was first introduced. Believe it or not, people are still crying "EQUALIST" and still finding reasons to dislike her.
Can we be okay with having some complicated characters? Can Mako NOT be perfect? (Let's be honest, if he was we would have people crying 'GARY STU' rather than 'JERK'). I'm not saying we can't be like "Mako WHY ARE YOU DOING THAT" but calling him a bad character or anything like that seems a bit extreme.
Mako's just damned if he does and damned if he doesn't in this series. Cut the guy some slack.
I'd have to agree with you Fliss. I know I gave him flak for what he did in EP07 (which I disagree with being justified; I'll expand below why) but him reacting the way he did IS consistent with the foundation of his character - regardless of Asami being there or not. Idk what it is, but I think people are jumping on the bandwagon and forgetting just what they should be pretending to hate in the first place.
re: Mako in EP07I gotta disagree with him having any justification for acting the way he did. For one, Korra is the goddamn Avatar (her business is bigger than him) and she, despite showing brash tendencies, learned from her mistake in EP05 - Mako completely disregarded that fact. He agreed to her request to stay friends but he showed no inclination that he did so, in EP07. He accused her of something that is born from his insecurity and took it out on Korra for
doing her job.
He didn't believe her when she said it wasn't about ~them~ and he didn't give her the time of day to explain herself. I get that he has obligation to his girlfriend and her father, but he is also supposed to be Korra's
friend. That's the key word here, and he wasn't an ounce close to it when he brought up their ~history against her for his own gain. In fact, he was so insecure, so
scared that she was actually being a grown-up (something that he reasoned was a factor as to why he shouldn't be with her) that he jumped to fight against her. I sympathize with his fear, but he really had to grow-up himself, put aside feelings (like Korra did) and help her or at least do a better job of handling the situation. The way he did it was poor and disappointing and utterly inexcusable.
(but like you said, he's learning, which ultimately I'm glad for)
re: Mako in EP09that brings me to his redeeming moment. I agree with you, fliss. People are damning him for something that shouldn't be surprising and/or demonized in the first place.
Mako has always shown tendencies to protect first, think later and the way he treated Korra being kidnapped was utterly
him and frankly, I'll take it. I'm not apologizing for him being in the Masami-or-Makorra situation, but only upon what was happening right at that moment. His reaction, his anger, his desperation rang true to his "mama bear" side and I quite enjoyed seeing him display that much emotion.
The way he acted was purely to vent out his frustration and inability to protect something he needed to protect. I know people are damning him being so crazy, but what do you expect? Korra was
kidnapped. If I were dating a dude but was freaking out about a friend of mine being
possibly dead, I'd be losing all my kitten and more. I'm not sure why Bolin wasn't acting the way Mako was (didn't he "love" her?), to be honest. And Asami - she wasn't so bad as to be insecure in the wrong moment, and I'd be so disappointed if she confronted Mako on the way he was acting DURING the search. (She didn't, so that was perfect.) It's fine that she was insecure, and it was in the realm of belief (however I expected more from her too, regarding Korra). I feel so kittening bad for her though, and hopefully in EP10, she'll get a fair deal in the end of Masami.
overall, I'm in agreement with you. He's a flawed character and he's suffered from the lack of screentime because of some convoluted need of the creators for "drama." Frankly, people shouldn't be mad at Mako - they should be mad at what Masami represents and mad at Bryke for stirring kitten for no good reason.
I'll reply to some complaints justcuz.
re: Mako "loving" another while dating someone elseno, there's nothing wrong with this. You can't help who you love-like-lust no matter the situation you're in. Someone who isn't in control of their emotions 24/7 and is struggling to deal with an inner-conflict as old as time (brain vs. heart) shouldn't be demonized.
Mako is a sensible guy, he prefers things straight and narrow. He values security (this as the goal for his brother's well-being, first and foremost) and safety - a road that he
knows how to navigate. This all makes sense - Asami represents this, he said it himself.
But then comes Korra. All kinds of scary, a bigger piece of something he can't comprehend (just yet) and a future that isn't mapped out in the confines of his comfort zone. She's chaos incarnate and he's afraid.
I know people "hate" him for not doing what's right, but I think he's so afraid that he can't find it in himself to take the leap. However as we've seen in EP09, his brain is losing the fight and he's starting to tunnel out what he feels through action alone.
I gotta step back from officially giving him kitten, and join back in the group that's hopeful he'll do what is right. Although I
am hoping he gets seven levels of hell from Asami for doing that to her, despite his inability and difficulty to do what we all know is the right thing. It's his turn to learn his lesson, and I'm hoping it sticks with him when he does.
re: Mako's reunion with Asami / Mako's reunion with KorraHe's getting flak for kissing Asami in the former, but I don't see the point in making this out to be more than it is. He has reason to display his relief in being reunited with her and show her that he cares for her. They're d a t i n g. Despite him being the failure in not breaking up with her right away, he shouldn't completely ostracize her. I figure he has feelings for her still, however badly produced they are, so he has ground to act on them.
buuut that's about as far as my sympathy goes for him in the latter. Bro, your girlfriend is RIGHT THERE and you're brushing Korra's HAIR from her FACE. As I stated previously, he's acting on pure emotion right now, but goddamn he should restrain himself. I'm okay with him lifting her off Naga and away from the interrogation (Lin is at fault here, as sad am I to say, but it fits her character [gotta catch The Perp] so it's not as bad as it seems) but he should have really come back to Republic City, off Korra-Cloud-9 and been aware that he's still got to set his kitten straight before he gives Korra the lovins she (and he) wants.
sorta rant
re: Masami en généralI mentioned before that the romance is rocky as hell, and I'm disappointed that they didn't take another opportunity to redeem it in EP09. Bryke have damned themselves by inserting uneeded romantic-conflict (i.e., Masami) as a means to flesh out Mako and Asami.
They could have done this more effeciently without harming the rest of the overall romantic narration. Real talk, Masami is unequivocally a mistake. They could have presented Mako's feelings for Korra on a more personal level, completely untained by his motivation for a "more sensible" relationship than a "feels right" one: instead of having Masami and Makorra as the comparison factors, he could have used his character traits to decipher what to do. They could have had him reason on-screen that despite Korra representing what he shouldn't want, he can't help feeling selfish in actually wanting what he feels is right.
And Asami omg. She's bogged down by the trait of Mako's Girlfriend so badly her characterization is suffering to hell and back. She could have been presented in Team Avatar with a different stake, pro-bending perhaps, Bolin's fan-girl perhaps, an interest in the Avatar perhaps - something other than Mako as boyfriend material. It's childish and lame and completely shallow. I'd even take the cliche approach of her performing a Heel-Face-Turn, defecting from the Equalist, than being shipper fodder. I admit she has some characterization
now, but that's all STILL being overshadowed by MC romantic-conflict.
These characters don't deserve the hate they're getting because of bad writing, and I hope Bryke knows they suck at this.
I'll take a stab in the dark here and say that the death penalty doesn't exist in the Avatar-verse as a form of capital punishment, because crime such as we know doesn't exist. What I mean by that is that in our society we follow a general eye-for-an-eye justice system. In Avatar world, crime is so rare (or at least it was prior to Republic City) that the Avatar was usually Judge, Juror, and Executioner for the rare criminal that couldn't be handled by say the Firelord, or Earth King. Rather than an eye-for-an-eye, it's more of a restoration of balance. The Avatar doesn't act out of vengeance. Obviously, we know that previous Avatars had no qualms about doting out a "death penalty" in such instances. Following the 100 year war, I have every confidence in saying that Aang had no intention of ever taking away another person's bending. Right up until Yakone demonstrated his terrifying, mind-blowing, out of this world ability to bloodbend at will, and nearly killed Aang. He knew that spirit bending was older than dirt, from what the lion turtle said, and it was something he did not understand. Therefore, he wouldn't have used it unless desperate.
Hm, out of sight, out of mind then? I'd have to disagree, since I'm giving the Avatarverse more room to do what the shows themselves cannot present to it's target audience.
ATLA definitely could not have shown capital crimes and the corresponding capital punishment, they probably alluded to it (e.g., Jet's terrorism) but overall they did a bad job of presenting what they did. Also keep in mind that the warring nations weren't so much occupied with keeping peace within the confines of their own terrorities - they had the Fire Nation's rapid expansion, and thereafter invasion to worry about. If anything, the Fire Nation had already occupied the majority of the nations and were invoking their own punishment, unjustly (aside from the Earth Kingdom and the Dai Lee, but they were already corrupt prior to Azula's rule). However despite all this, I'm still giving ATLA the benefit of doubt, and allowing it the background room to imply that capital punishment existed (if anything, outside the Fire Nation's influence, before the Fire Nation's expansion and following the defeat of Ozai sans the public knowledge that the Avatar has a new toy). It's realistic, something that, I admit ATLA is less obvious about, but it kind of comes with the package of a universe that reflects reality.
That said, we can only utilize what we have - the time post-war to decide from, and Republic City is it (which has a Council, police-force, and gangs). Thus LoK is probably the thing we can use to decipher the presence of a death penality or not, and I since it reflects more closely to our reality, I firmly believe it exists still. I mean there was even a trial for Yakone - they needed proof, and waited appropriately before passing judgment. It's quite accurate to what we have irl, and the death penalty would fit just fine.
And I also disagree with Aang's penchant for spiritbending. I'm basing my stance solely on how Aang approached his decision to spiritbend Yakone, which is
just enough for me. Aang reacted swiftly by going after Yakone, stopping him from leaving and defending himself from being killed - however, he was too brash in taking away Yakone's bending. He's the Avatar - he should have taken precaution (i.e., Sifu Katara) to learn how to counteract bloodbending. Also he'd already subdued him in earth, why take away his bending? If not that, why not have chi-blockers on hand if things got rough in the trial? Yakone showed signs of preemptively escaping - why not prepare? The Gaang handled this poorly, and I'm disappointed in how they resolved this conflict.
We can agree on one thing. Aang didn't have a sense of precaution and probably told the story of his battle against Ozai without any embellishment or lack of detail. However, I don't think his act of spirit bending revealed a latent evil in element bending. Perhaps it's my own bias, but bending itself isn't evil. It's the decision of the bender to use his abilities for evil that creates the problem. I.E not all benders are bad, and not all non-benders are good. Isn't Tarlok "evil" for using his powers of charm and persuasion for his self interests? Isn't Amon evil for imposing his will upon people with his powers? Although, the arguement could still be made that Aang's decisions led to Korra's turmoil, much like Avatar Roku's decisions led to Aang's plight. But it's not just because Aang didn't kill Ozai.
Again, I'm not stating that it was solely because of Aang spiritbending that Korra has this mess, I meant that it was just a very important part of the broken foundation that makes up the conflict.
Look, you're saying that there are two sides of two coins - benders (good/bad); non-bender (good/bad). But where/when exactly did that separation start corresponding with different punishments? What I meant was to analyze the overall ramifications of Aang
introducing such a punishment unto the Avatarverse itself, which helped lead to these two coins being acknowledged from one - and thereafter criticize the need for it (if there even is).
Before spiritbending, a punishment meant solely for benders, we had the death penalty. It encompassed all evil, under the same judgment - death. Be you a bender or a non-bender, if you f**cked up bad enough, you got capital punishment (something that in no way differentiated the bender from non-bender; everyone was treated equally). But after it was introduced, applied to the appropriate evil and became public knowledge it was understood solely for evil benders - non-benders were taken out of the mix because it did not apply to them, and thus had no say.
They lost their voice, regardless of them being victims. We see it now in the Council, and as Amon runs around dishing out his own judgment. There is no clear cut representation. Hell, Amon might as well be the Anti-Avatar the way he's utilizing such a dangerous power (which partially is my point in the need for it)
Also, now that I think about it how exactly
do non-benders feel about spiritbending? Perhaps I'm overstepping myself, but by spiritbending someone into an non-bending individual, is the bending community implying that living life as a non-bender is punishment in of itself? I don't know, it's like Chou mentioned; the severity of spiritbending is quite controversial and it seems impossible to just say it's good or bad and be done with it. It all depends on how you feel about spiritbending itself and your stance in the overall picture - which we can't have considering we don't "live" in the Avatarverse; we don't know what it's like.
We could bring a lesson from Naruto to consider the other outcome; If Aang had killed Ozai what would have happened? Perhaps the war wouldn't have ended. The fire nation could have rejected Zuko's claim to power. He was a banished prince after all, and rebanished after he set out to join the avatar. The cycle of hatred would have continued. Uniting the world under one leadership in order to bring about peace isn't a unique idea. Ozai could have been replaced with a popular Zhao type general, while at the same time being elevated to martyrdom as the fire nation continued it's pursuit of conquering the world with renewed fervor.
may I ask exactly why wouldn't the war have ended if Ozai had been killed? It stops Ozai all the same.
Personally I think keeping Ozai in a cage, locked up stripped of his bending, is worse than keeping him alive. The state of Ozai, the implications of being locked away in the Palace, forcing him to live a life he'd probably view as the weakest form of existance - is no mercy, and may even be taken as something worse than death by Ozai sympathizers. Also if I were an Ozai apologist, who has been fed a mind-set that my firebending blood is my life, I'd sure as hell be ready to revolt after hearing that my leader was being held in a cage like a beaten animal, with his firebending ripped from him instead of given death like any other person would expect.
I'd tell my racist friends, they would tell their own friends and so on and so forth until we have a bonifide group of Ozai resurgents. Zuko has his hands full already, and a revolt of that magnitude is the last thing he needs. Death would have some finality to it, and if Ozai still lives so does an embodiment of traditional blood-soaked hope for redemption - Ozai being alive is more of an incentive than if he were dead.
Also the Fire Nation has no choice. They can't reject a monarchy, and I doubt they would be able to outright deny Zuko's claim to the throne. He's next in line, it's his birthright - the Fire Nation values this more than anything else. Also I mentioned a revolt - any kind of revolt would come after Zuko takes the throne (just the severity of it is inconclusive). There will always be those who held The Royal Family in high-esteem, and Zuko is the very first to rule against strong traditions, instilling a regime that will cause some people to react negatively - but he's still royalty.
I'm just saying, it'd be impossible to
replace royalty, when all this time they've had no problem with the monarch in the first place. The line of succession is irrevocable, and just because the current is taking a different turn on things doesn't mean the
whole Fire Nation would want to destroy a tradition that has been set in stone, in their history, for generations. The only problem I see that would cause unrest following the War is the fact that
Ozai was taken out of the picture, and not the fact that now his son
is.
The show at this point is clearly rolling out the red carpet for Mako to be The One for Korra, her true love, her waifu. The show wants me to feel a pang of sorrow when Korra is sadly watching Mako be put in the police truck as he tragically gazes back at her. Iiiiiiii don’t. The show wants me to squee when he picks her up like her knight in shining armor and strokes her face in a scene that would have had me gushing and freaking and giggling with most any likeable fictional pairing, but Iiiiiiiiiiiiiii can’t because I was just treated to an entire episode of Mako reminding us all that he has no intentions of breaking it off with Asami until he has sufficiently hurt her.
And maybe that’s the most infuriating part of IT all, just knowing that if Makorra is really endgame, if there’s no big twist, that there is no conceivable way for this ship to happen without it being blatantly insulting to Asami’s character. Because even if they go with the “nicest” route possible, that being Asami being like, “Look…you honestly care for Korra, and I want you to be happy. Go and get her, champ,” it’s still going to be insulting. Because it’s going to be forced.
Asami has been given no reason to be that nice to Mako. She has given up her father, her riches, and her entire lifestyle to stand with him. It pisses me off knowing that there is a distinct possibility that when Asami is expected to give up Mako too, it’s going to be played off as either, “Aww, how heartwarming,” or “Stop being selfish, Asami, and do the right thing.”
That is all assuming that the completely unpredictable doesn’t wind up happening, that being Korra hooking up with someone else or her giving Mako the brush and hooking up with no one at all. At this point though, I am not holding my breath.
errrr, okay, I'mma be frank here: I can't take that person seriously.
re: the show is etc
She's really laying it on thick with her self-insertion.
The show isn't trying to make the audience empathize with Korra, it's displaying her character in the way she reacts to Mako being arrested. It's not utterly romantic, that moment more shows that Korra is realizing she made a mistake by leading them into the city like vigilantes, instead of omg-bleh-romance. She did something that was pretty brash, and the show is utilizing Mako as the most heavy reminder of her immaturity.
The show isn't trying to make the audience "squee" when Mako pulls her away from the interrogation. It's displaying Mako's character by letting him finally protect someone he needed to this whole time - it was the falling action to his behavior the entire episode. Also if not romantic, he did her a favor as a friend - a kindness by moving her malnourished, exhausted body away from Lin and Tenzin (who were in the wrong here, not Mako) and onto a more comfortable place. I'll concede to him stroking her face, but that's it. Mako was in the right here, whether you like it or not.
I will agree with Mako needing to break off the Masami, but his display of craziness is an off-shoot of his personality to protect. This person is so concentrated on the fact that he's still dating Asami that she's disregarding that Mako's feelings for Korra are still there - and therefore has less of a reason to react the way he did. Korra is kidnapped. While I do think he should be showing more obvious indicators that he's not feeling Asami as much as he should, his reactions to Korra's situation are sound and justified.
re: how they deal with endgame
She's presuming too much without really knowing and her reactions to how they'll handle it is purely based on conjecture. Now she's just mad, which isn't the greatest route to present an argument.
re: Asami
She's self-inserting again. Asami is a character who needs protection and Mako is the complete embodiment of that. Korra said it herself, "she'll need you more than ever, Mako" - if the characters state what another character is capable of, you have to believe them. Especially the LI of another.
She's also making presumptions on something we haven't seen. Asami just found out about Mako's infidelity this episode, and she reacted with the utmost surprise. Her blatant aghast reaction is telling me he's been a great boyfriend to her thus far. His feelings for another girl doesn't hinder his already present feelings for her during the course of their relationship - it's just his inability to stop being a borderline emotional polygamist.
Also, I disagree with Asami "giving up" everything to be with Mako. That doesn't make sense. Her decision to give up everything has nothing to do with the fact that Mako's there, but more with the fact that she did it for what she knew was right. That writer is downplaying Asami as a person by associating her most character defining moments are somehow motivated by her boyfriend. That's more insulting than her hate for Mako because although it's her intention to defend Asami, she's just making her look worse (like a character fully bound to their emotions). That's not right.
Edited by krisk, 11 June 2012 - 08:05 PM.
