44 replies to this topic

[Illjwamh]

I think you're encountering Sturgeons' Law with the Fanfiction Corrolary.

Sturgeons' Law states that 90% of everything is crap. However, given the contest of what he was talking about, it's more like 90% of everything PUBLISHED is crap.

99.9% of what is written and submitted to a publisher is not published.

Therefore, 99.99% of all fanfiction is crap. Eventually, all categories of fanfiction turn out this way....

(I'm both being serious and not with this reply -- but then again, so was Sturgeon)

I don't know about Sturgeon, but I can say something from my personal experience and observation.

I've been involved in fanfiction for eight years, and if there's one thing I've learned, it's that roughly 90-95% of all fanfiction is crap. It doesn't matter what fandom you're in, or what genre, or anything like that. It's a universal constant.

It's nothing recent.

[hymir]

Yup, I agree with most of your quotations, fellas. Specially in the "99% is crap"; but I'll let you analyze this: There are tons over tons of fics and ficlets, that just aren't even worthy of the time (as much as I hate to say that, is true). But within those tons of lousy fics, you will find that, indeed 99% is crap, but the remaining 1% is actually good, and of that 1%, between 10 and 30% of it is pure gold. That would leave us with about 0.1 and 0.3% of really good fics, which, translated to numbers, will leave us dozens, if not hundreds of good stories out there. Thus, I don't worry too much about running out of material to read, or inspiration (of sorts).

See, another problem that the fanfic community has (unfortunately for good authors) is the lack of good, encouraging, yet constructive and intelligent reviews, which is, as far as I can see (and correct me if I'm wrong) a huge factor that could easily explain why good authors drop out on writing or just lose interest on it. And believe me, I've seen very good plots being dropped aside and left alone rotting just because the author looses interest, and I don't blame them actually, because the lack of reviews just dries your will to write, as well as your inspiration source, sometimes (I have a friend that suffered that, now he limits himself to draw and make amv's for youtube, sadly).

And that is how I explain (again, it is just my opinion) the lack of interest among good authors.

But again, between all the crap, there are pieces of pure gold, that could actually enter into the category of "literary gold", for the content, author's story-telling skills and other factors.

The thing is that you just have to dig around. And sooner or later, you will run into one of this golden nuggets; and when you do, encourage that author and help him/her to keep up, that way we could contrarest the talent leakage that this community suffers. Who knows, maybe in the future, that author that started writing fanfics could be the next Literature Nobel prize (maybe I went too far, but this is just an example XD).

See ya, if you agree with me, let me know. In a previous post (sorry that I don't know the name of the person who posted it) someone proposed the creation of professional reviewers (as I understood) and I thought that was actually a good idea. If we (the part of the community scandilized by this good fanfic decrease rate) formed some sort of reviewing organization that granted some kind of prestige by giving thumbs up, it could encourage authors to improve by themselves, just to be mentioned and reviewed by this organization. Iknow it sounds a little bit fishy, but I think it is not such a lousy idea. So I ask you what do you think of it.

[desaix]

Anyone who is unfamiliar with Sturgeon's Law, here is the reference explained....

There is also a wikipedia entry on the subject, and so on. It's a rather intriguing 'law' (or revelation, or whatever). Apparently, the original line was 'crud' instead of 'crap' (something I did not know until I started trying to look up a link to reference it) and it was being used to defend science fiction as a genre, rather than some of the other anecdotes I've heard about what he was talking on.

Off topic, I know, but I thought some might find it interesting....

[Illjwamh]

Hymir, I've heard similar ideas proposed before, and I've even seen a few groups attempt it with limited success, but never anything on the scale you're talking about. It would be great, wouldn't it? I'm in, for a start. I've always liked the idea, and it would help authors not only with their confidence, but in improving their writing as well, since the best reviews always include some bits of constructive criticism.

[hymir]

Great, dude.

Say, why don't we (fo starters) make a post here teling all this stuff to the others, to see if the idea is well-taken. And if it is, to start recruiting people for the project.

If we pull the strings in the right way (it is only a metaphore), we could make something big out of this, and I mean it, I truly do.

So I'll make the post, and we'll tell the others. I'm sure this will work (I guess...).

[MagusKyros]

I agree on the English language thing, but that's partially my own fault. I have lots of good ideas for writing a Naruto fanfiction, but my problem is being able to put it down on paper.

I can post a story, but adding the dialogue is the problem, not to mention details and whatnot.

[Shouri no Hana]

sorry to bring back an obviously dead topic, but I wish to add my two cents into this, grammar, chat speak all of that is one thing that leads to a bad Fanfiction, but really the worst time is...

It's almost IMPOSSIBLE to be original these days.

This doesn't just apply to Fanfiction, but AMVs, and fanart, almost everything has been done, anything new is basically similar to an older item, I mean how many fanarts have to seen of the Naruto cast cosplaying? AMVs, sure they may be different animes with the same song, but the style they were made are rather similar (such as my Listen To My Voice being similar to My Last MOVE and my Until The Day I Die similar to another's AMV under the same name)

Fanfics are the same, if we set the whole grammar, horrible formatting and all that stuff aside and just focus on the plot, tell me... how many of them are truly unique? I've really only been hanging around the Naruto section, and aside from the mass of yaoi, there are many High School fics, Obito survives (and isn't Tobi) fics, rewrites of the original plot (guilty...totally guilty to that one) and Harry Potter crossovers.

Hell even when you think your story is unique, you'll probably find yourself using an element that's overused, I'll break down my recent story to show what I mean, even then... I may still be wrong (Ryuusei no Kyuubi)

Spoiler! --Click here to view--

Rewrite of the original Naruto plot - Overused...totally overused.
Shippuuden Ages in Part One - Haven't found another fic like that - Assuming Original
Crossover with Ryuusei no Rockman - First - a fellow writer asked for permission, allowed, dropped after first chapter.
X-Over with Rockman (In general) with Naruto as the dominate anime - Second - Terra Ace was the first, asked for his permission, granted
Calling Sasuke Duck-Head and/or Duckie - heck, we do it all the time, totally not original, but totally funny.

From the summary and title alone, a story may look 100% original, but when broken down, we know it isn't... my new story is probably only around 50% original, and if you ask me, that's quite a feat.

[Tohno Shiki]

It's almost IMPOSSIBLE to be original these days.

Depressing though that may be, it's true. However, we can't really blame authors for not being original, since just about every aspect of Naruto fandom has been explored.

There are some overused cliches that I find annoying, however.

1. Naruto comes back from the retrieve Sasuke mission successful (or not), and Sakura beats him up for failing/hurting the guy. This causes his "mask" (most overused word in Naruto angst fics, I kid not) to shatter, and he cries about a bit before leaving Konoha to join the Akatsuki or something (despite the fact that they obviously want the Bijuu, and not him).

2. Sakura yells some harsh things to Naruto e.g "I HATE YOU" and he falls into depression.

3. Sakura (again?) is going out with Naruto, but dumps him at the speed of light for the returning Sasuke.

Authors (questionable) who don't put in enough effort to think up of a remotely original plot often fall back upon a tried and true method of netting reviews: Sakura bashing. Which is pointless and incredibly stupid.

[/rant]

[Rick (Bonta-kun)]

There are some overused cliches that I find annoying, however.

1. Naruto comes back from the retrieve Sasuke mission successful (or not), and Sakura beats him up for failing/hurting the guy. This causes his "mask" (most overused word in Naruto angst fics, I kid not) to shatter, and he cries about a bit before leaving Konoha to join the Akatsuki or something (despite the fact that they obviously want the Bijuu, and not him).

2. Sakura yells some harsh things to Naruto e.g "I HATE YOU" and he falls into depression.

3. Sakura (again?) is going out with Naruto, but dumps him at the speed of light for the returning Sasuke.

Authors (questionable) who don't put in enough effort to think up of a remotely original plot often fall back upon a tried and true method of netting reviews: Sakura bashing. Which is pointless and incredibly stupid.

[/rant]

I agree completely, and dont forget for point 1, sometimes it aint Akatsuki, there are alot of fics where he becomes kage of another village and even more fics of where he starts his own village and it becomes the strongest ninja village, and the most common one where he comes back to Konoha because Konoha is at war and he ends up getting his own harem with everyone but Sakura lol.

[Tohno Shiki]

Yup, but it was abit too much for me to fit into number 1 so easily =P

[Vyse]

I think people put too much faith in the council's "love" for Sasuke, and it makes everyone blind to the fact that Naruto returns with a chidori hole in his chest, and spits on him for hurting the precious Uchiha who will not get punished for betraying the entire village and his blood oath as a ninja, not to forget endangering some of the heirs to many of Konoha's biggest clans, but it's OK because he has cool eyes. It wasn't his fault! It was Orochimaru and his curse seal who remote controlled Sasuke into doing that, and now that he's back he obviously won't do it again! Did I mention he has cool eyes? Oh, and it was probably the demon child's fault anyway, so let's hurt him someway.. what about taking away his only dream? Yeah, we banish him so he won't get the chance to become Hokage, and Tsunade will only fight it a little bit at first before she surrenders and let Narut go without using her super awesome Hokage powers to veto or something. It's not like she cares about Naruto at all, right?

But I rather like the idea of Naruto building his own village, but there's no way it can become the strongest evar... And if they banish Naruto, it should probably be for a good reason... not for doing what they asked for him to do, and get the Uchiha back so he, who's obviously not gay, will be able to make loads of Uchiha babies with cool eyes!

[Tohno Shiki]

Oh yes. The council. Where do I start.

This is a typical fanfic council, keep in mind these are the people RUNNING a Village.

Council guy (usually Koharu or Homura): Uchiha Sasuke, you are on trial for running off to join Orochimaru and nearly killing the demon boy (most common phrase used in Naruto fanfiction to describe him), but we don't really care about that.

Sasuke: Hn.

Council guy: A compelling argument, please do go on

Sasuke: Hn.

Council guy: I understand. This is all the demon boy's fault, you are totally innocent.

Sasuke: Hn.

The one sane guy in the place: OBJECTION! What's going on here? He's obviously guilty!

Sasuke: I am an Uchiha. Hn.

Council guy: Yes, despite the overwhelming evidence showing your willingness to betray the Village, you are Uchiha. That makes you god and that statue of you will be up by next Tuesday. You can go now.

Sasuke: ...Hn.

Council guy: Ah right, we do need a scapegoat. I know! Let's blame everything on the demon boy! After all, it is a convenient plot device that we can use to exile him and make him become godlike outside of the Village!

There. A fairly accurate rendition of a typical fanfiction council. To be honest, I think they would lock him up. No one can really be stupid enough to let a traitor run free like that. But I digress. You can think whatever you want, really.

[Vyse]

Yeah, you more or less nailed them with that one. If they get Sasuke back, it should be obvious that they treated him the same way they would treat another high ranked missing nin from Konoha. I guess it would either be lifelong prison (and with Sasuke's questionable sexuality, he would probably find himself a good husband in jail) or execution. If they treated Sasuke like God on earth, wouldn't they just pardon Itachi as well? He's still an Uchiha, and strong as hell... So I guess the demon boy had something to do with that as well?

Oooh.. ohhh. And the "nice" Kyuubi parts, where Orochimaru killed Kyuubi's (obviously female btw) mate and kits, and she saw his forehead protector and went all atomic bomb and kitten on Konoha... It wasn't her fault, it was Orochimaru all along. And don't forget that Kyuubi has a human shape she can change into, transfers her mind into a permanent kage bunshin or summoned, and mates with Naruto. Classic! I so have to use that in my fic, so everyone will review and praise me!

[Illjwamh]

I disagree with a lot of this. Sure, there's a lot of unoriginal tripe out there, but that doesn't mean it's impossible to write (or find and read) an original fic. Thought it might involve (gasp!) going outside the "Character A hooks up with Character B" realm. Scary.

And if you want to write one but you're complaining about all these commonly used formulas? Here's a tip: Don't use any of them! Do your own thing, make up your own idea rather than rehashing one that's been done a million times. Think outside the box.


So many fics suck because the author writes about what they think would be cool or what they wish would happen rather than what they think could actually happen.

[MagusKyros]

You can use a rehashed idea in an original way.

For example, Naruto running away/being banished from Konoha could be written well if used the proper methods.

[Jwolf0]

So many fics suck because the author writes about what they think would be cool or what they wish would happen rather than what they think could actually happen.

True to an extent. I'd say that what most people write about COULD theoretically happen... it's just that many of them don't/won't take the time to set things up and otherwise do the work to make their story plausible. Except for some of the obviously out there ideas (Mpreg...ugh.), it's possible to write almost anything well, given enough work.
A lot of the overused points listed above are just that, easy ways for an author to quickly justify Depressed!Naruto, or SasuSaku, or whatever. There are ways to write, say, SasuSaku and make it believable within the framework of the story (probably be beyond me though).

I've read good time travel Naruto fics, and I've read bad ones.
I've read good NaruHina and I've read bad.

An original plot is great, but I personally feel the execution of the idea, new or old, is just as important if not more so. It's the execution and setup of the idea that so many authors either fail or outright ignore and that's what gets me. Well, that and horrendous grammar.

[AyaMoto74]

I see what you mean. I used to author alot but I haven't made a story in so long... There's no motivation for a story anymore. Maybe the good authors are getting that as well?

[Illjwamh]

It's possible, though I don't think they stop writing entirely. A lot of times the really good authors will just change fandoms after a while. One of my favorite authors who hasn't written anything in years (he used to be big in Tenchi Muyo! and Martian Successor Nadesico) has suddenly reemerged with a slew of Oh My Goddess! fics. It's great.


I myself have hopped fandoms no less than five times over the years (though I don't know if I'd go so far as to consider myself "one of the greats" ).

[Tohno Shiki]

I disagree with a lot of this. Sure, there's a lot of unoriginal tripe out there, but that doesn't mean it's impossible to write (or find and read) an original fic. Thought it might involve (gasp!) going outside the "Character A hooks up with Character B" realm. Scary.

I didn't mean to give the impression that I felt there were no original fics out there anymore. Your fic "The Shinobi Wars" and its prequel "Koorikage" are both examples of original fics that don't utilise cliches and are well written with all technical aspects taken care of. I'm just saying that many twelve year old "authors" go on ff.net, read a fic where Sakura gets shot in the head, and write their own fic where Sakura gets shot in the head.

It's not unoriginal fics that I'm bashing anyway, for many aspects of Naruto fandom has been explored. It's just annoying to see what is basically 50 carbon copies of the same crap fic all over ff.net. With exactly the same ideas, and all written in text speak, and lacking basic grammar and punctuation whatsoever. Authors who can't be bothered to think up of ideas of their own steal others. It's as simple as that.

For instance, about 1/20 writers actually write the council as objective, rational people who are fit to run a village. The rest...well...refer to the above. Even though it might seem a little overdone, it is pretty much how just about every fanfiction council goes, despite the fact that all we've seen are Homura and Koharu. Who on earth came up with it in the first place?

[Illjwamh]

Ah, you've asked the $64,000 question. Who came up with it? That is, who first used it in a fic? Whenever a new character is introduced to canon, they have a very basic characterization. Fic writers will jump on this and write a handful of fics involving that character using only that base model. Even though only a few will do this right away, it saturates the market so to speak, and the only fics available with that character in them will have said character portrayed in such a way. Therefore even when the character receives more characterization in canon, their fanon persona has already been established and writers hesitate to deviate from it because they think that's what people want. So they perpetuate it, and end up adding to the problem of the "fanon characterization".


This is why there are so many fics that have Sakura swooning over Sasuke, hating Naruto, and Naruto being an incompetent buffoon. They haven't acted this way since they first appeared, but because of the process I described above, we're still getting fics set in the time period of the first six chapters of the manga.