66 replies to this topic

[MBKon]

actually, i wish to find it. It surely can't be worser than 'New Student Jounin', now can it?

[Nate River]

TongG, yeah, crossovers tend to be home to rampant cliches, over-used plot devices (I swear if I see the dimensional portal one more time...), and mary-suism (though mostly of the character alteration type).

[TonyG]

actually, i wish to find it. It surely can't be worser than 'New Student Jounin', now can it?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

well its not on the net anymore but because you want it so bad Ill make a small review of what was it about... get ready to spork your eyes out btw....

as I recall the story was about ash saotome ketchum, who is trying to become a pokemon master and save the world from evil angel in his pokengelion 01 who had the shape of a gigantic purple mecha pikachu that has the soul of her mother... but that is not all whe he gets splashed with cold water he would transform into a red head version of himself who also is a sailor scout and fights for love and justice, ash's is a half saiyan and can transform to SSJ in both female and male form...


Now here is the shocker of it all about half of the series the autor inserts himself on the series, and boinks ever sailor moon, ranma, DBZ and evangelion female character there is and just to really screw your head, the MS even has a wild night with ash in female form....

ok Ill stop now my brain is starting to come out of my ears in the shape of pudding....

man that was a bad fic.... brrrr

[Vespar]

...the MS even has a wild night with ash in female form....

*kills self*
Honestly, I read some bad ones, but the sound of that one takes the cake.
The absolute worst one I'd read (more like skimmed) went to an evangelion fic. Though I can't remember the title name, I think the main character's name was DJ Croft. And if the name didn't tip off a SI alert, then I'm sure getting involved with Asuka did.

And like TonyG said MBKon, not too many flaws, but memorable traits. Kind of like, 'Kiba's the braggy dog guy', 'Neji was the ranting guy on destiny and family' and 'Orochimaru is an immortal snake ped--err...' yeah you get the idea. ^^;

[MBKon]

ok, then they'd be the 'flirty manipulative brothers' as for pokengelion....here, my eyes. take them and guard them before i find it!

[TonyG]

...the MS even has a wild night with ash in female form....

*kills self*
Honestly, I read some bad ones, but the sound of that one takes the cake.
The absolute worst one I'd read (more like skimmed) went to an evangelion fic. Though I can't remember the title name, I think the main character's name was DJ Croft. And if the name didn't tip off a SI alert, then I'm sure getting involved with Asuka did.

And like TonyG said MBKon, not too many flaws, but memorable traits. Kind of like, 'Kiba's the braggy dog guy', 'Neji was the ranting guy on destiny and family' and 'Orochimaru is an immortal snake ped--err...' yeah you get the idea. ^^;

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Neon Exodus Evangelion DJ Croft son of fox mulder and Lara croft... yes people this is the one I was talking about earlier...

but that one at least the author had the decency to write well... Hellstorm evangelion... thats completly retarded

[wingsover]

The biggest question I want to ask Mary-Sue writers, or even New Character writers in general, is why they bother to write FANfic. The whole point is to pay tribute to a series you like, not totally shunt it aside in favor of what you made up. I remember, there was a Mary Sue fic somewhere on ff.net (I know, I know! SHOCK) whose author's note began with "Stop flaming me, the whole point of fanfic is to make up original characters!"

And I was like, uh, no. The point of fanfic, IMHO, is to continue the adventures of the canon characters, with NCs introduced if and only if they serve to further the plot. What I mean is, the main focus should always be on the main characters - there is a helpful hint in the term 'main characters' after all. I especially hate being introduced to characters who are "more" <specific character-trait> than the cast are themselves. A character with a more angsty past than Sasuke? A character with a stronger demon than Naruto sealed in him? A character who is cooler than Kakashi? Why not just use the characters already developed in the series?

I remember there was a point when ff.net split the Harry Potter section into Harry Potter fics and Harry Potter New Character fics. There were thousands of fics in that second category, but the section folded. I bet it was because no one ever went there, I mean who is honestly interested, and the SI/MS authors wanted to go back to the exposure of the main HP pages.

[Vespar]

Actually wingsover (and I can't believe I'm defending them), sometimes -or rather rarely- new characters can be a welcome divergent to how things are done. My best example would be Elizabeth Culmer's 'Way of the Apartment Manager'.
It takes a phenomenal writer to be able to create someone new and practically integrate them so well into an existing cast. The reason for this, would be to -properly- add a new twists on things without say... Beating on cliche's or flogging dead horses.

But yes, aside from that, I do agree with you on that point, wingsover. Though it's not really a problem with just ACC's, but also with people who insist on, say; bestowing God-like powers on their favourite characters, making light of the most immoral plot elements or merely pairing characters together and thus constitutes a happy ending for the sake of doing so. (I just named all my pet peeves in fanfics. ^^; )

I guess, most writers forget that they should be asking themselves--

Why am I writing this?

It's an effectively sobering question.


Oh and btw, about that HP and HP new character split... I wish we'd have a fic checklist that'd ommit certain things you wouldn't want to see. Like say... Cross-overs or other more... unsavoury cup of tea.
But I'd suppose there would be very little 'new fics' (and even less worth reading) should this sort of filter become avilable, eh?

[wingsover]

I've read that fic, and I concede your point. It is a brilliant piece of writing. But part of the reason why I enjoyed it so much was that it kept Naruto very much involved in the plot, as well as Iruka and Kakashi. I guess fics I was thinking of are the type that shunt the characters off to the side to focus on the 'more special' NC - who usually is eerily similar to characters already in existence.

Another objection: if the person has so much time to make up the new character and wants the world to revolve around them, why not just write original fiction?

A checklist for things you DON'T want would be awesome. I wonder if authors would be honest about registering their fics have "original characters" or "song lyrics" or so on. BTW, don't you like crossovers? I ask in curiousity and not in defiance.

[PeacefulPhoenix]

so. say i write a fanfic were i was to put in a character, both kinda like a mary-sue, but very flawed in the same way, like he's great at tai-jutsu, but like Naruto, not that good at statagies and Gen, and is a basic loner, but gets along with people really well, he just likes to be alone, cause he's a perv
would this count as a Mary Sue?
and would this Character be good for an action/humor fic?

[Vespar]

wingsover
Yeah, those fics that shaft the main characters and give to their own OCs -without any real justification; are poor stereo-type connotations that comes with the label of OCs... A bit depressing really, considering that there's just so much that can be done with the idea; but the fact of the matter is, it's perfectly ripe for abuse.

And I'm thinking that people don't write original fiction because they just like the concept oh so much so that they can claim that they're not plagiarising. =\

Heh, about the registering honestly on the checklist, you'd be right. It would be a novelty at first, but me thinks it'd be a repetition of that Harry Potter splitsville era.
And actually, I really do like crossovers! I've read (and enjoyed) my fair share of Ranma fics that have this tendency. Two favourites being a Ranma/AMG 'Pursuing a New Path' and Ranma/SM The Best of Times (yes, I admit to having a guiltily pleasure in reading some 'fuku fics' as well. ^^;;; ). Sometimes the occasional reminiscing around some of Carrotglace's work. My problem just stems from being mostly unfamiliar with the series' that the usual Naruto fics do get crossover with.


Wonton
When you describe your characters; do not, I repeat, do not describe them as 'like <insert Naruto cast member here>'. For one thing, they are their own person and you definitely want to stop thinking how like they are someone and more like, how not they are like them. It's not just flaws... It's the quirks.

See, a Mary-Sue is the essence of perfection. They know everything, they can do everything, they can turn s**t into gold. The way to work an OC well, would be to give them flaws, give them quirks, make them human.
Take the some main cast for instance;
Shikamaru is a genius to the nth degree, yet he's possibly the most absolute laziest ninja to exist.
Tsunade's the Hokage; the pillar of the whole Hidden Leaf Village, yet she drinks and gambles like a loon.

Now, to apply what I've said...
You said that one character's bad at strategy, why is he bad at strategy? Does he diregard orders and do his own thing? Or does he say... Have a bad habit to turn people into meat-shields?
And a loner perv, but he gets along with people well? Sorry, but I'm not quite getting that... Is that like along the lines that he's the civil, silent type, but when he talks, it's usually laced with innuendo -but is more or less golden advice?
OCs are interesting when they're flawed and different and have their own sets of problems that aren't a copy of the main cast.
Any character can do well for a humor fic. Usually, that's the best way to integrate them at first before going deeper.


If you've still got alot of problems with how to write them, you can try what I'm doing. Basically, write down a handful of personality traits and then name some situations and keep track of how they'd handle it. Then write the story and keep referring to make sure they're staying in their own character. Currently, I'm using this method in trying to write an older and a more mature Naruto, without compromising what makes him him.

I can't really give you more advice, since I don't really write for the genre, but I'm willing to for the experience. Lemme do a write up and see what I can come up with.

[Blayze]

What I find is good for creating an original character is this. Don't give them personality traits right off the bat. Create their past, first. Put them in a situation and craft their personality from their reactions.

[PeacefulPhoenix]

Least i understand the, better now, and thats just an example, not in detail, i just thought of that when i was supposed to go to bed

[MBKon]

!! Wait a sec! That means... SASUKE IS A MARY-SUE! I knew it!

[PeacefulPhoenix]

yes, i suppose he is, so KISHI WTF WERE YOU THINKING?!?!

[MBKon]

lets check.

Tragic past- yes
Angst- yes
Best in everything-yes

*eye twitches*

[Vespar]

Hehe, forgot one important thing, MBKon. Mary-Sue's gets together with an important character. Meaning SasuSaku - which, we all know, is implausible.

Btw Won-Ton. Is it that fic you've just published? That one about Jiraiya's nephews, right? Is it a self-insert...?
I'll take a look at it and let you know what I think, if you want. Though my advice only comes from observation and not experience -it is something I'm willing to correct very soon.

[Nate River]

I'm using a Spoiler tag to save space because this pretty long.

EDIT: Yikes, even with the lengthly revision there were still lots of errors. Hopefully that's most of them. I though of some additional advice, I'll post it later tonight.

Click For Spoiler

I know I have made this plug before, but check out Irony-chan’s A Mary-Sue Alphabet. It covers the most common Mary-Sue’s (and it's hilarious). If you character exhibits a number of these traits, then there might a problem.

I think Vespar covered it well, but I'd like add a few things.

As Vespar said, make them human. However, don't overcompensate either. I've seen OC's out there where the author includes a ton of character flaws in an obvious attempt to convince the reader that their character is not a Mary Sue (MS).

In her spoof of of MS's Irony-chan made this particular joke:

X is for Xanthe
Who isn't a Sue
Like any good character
She's got flaws, too
Her hair isn't curly!
Her nails she bites!
She's scared of the dark
When she turns out the lights!
So many things
That could get in the way...
But they'll never stop Xanthe
From saving the day

While this is a joke, I've seen this plenty of times. More than I would like, actually, A character must have flaws, but be careful not to go overboard or make it look like the type of attempt I described above. As someone else put it, don't just design an MS and then give them flaws, give them a personality.

Won-Ton, I like Blayze's idea, because it allows you do develop a character based on the logical conclusions about what type of person would come from a particular background. In a sense, the personality traits will develop from the background you create. Simply giving them personality traits in a vacuum is a difficult thing to do, especially if you want the character's ability, background, and personality to be consistent with each other.

And as Vespar said, don't describe him as like-Naruto. When you do this kind of thing, it looks like you are simply making Naruto 2.0; a simple variation on an existing character. It’s like you took Naruto, made a few adjusts and there you go. People reading Naruto fanfiction know the series and the characters (though to varying degrees). We've seen Naruto and we know what he's like, so avoid turning the OC into the second coming.

I'd also to agree with Vespar on another point. You have given him those traits, but why is he like that? Before you go using him a fanfic, think about why he is the way he is and why he does what he does. This is important not only because these are things you will have to explain in the story, but also because when you put him in various situations you will have to predict how he will feel and act based on the character you have set up.

Wingsover:

Yeah, I share you frustration with OC's. It's unfortunate really. I've seen some goods ones that fit well and give their universe additional color. But in the fanfic arena, so many people have failed so spectacularly that the OC concept is poisoned from the get go; no matter how good the design. Some people do not like OC's and will not read an otherwise good story simply because it possess one these.

As far as why people do this, well, I can think of at least one reason. I know some authors use fanfiction as sort of practice run for original fiction. Creating OC's gives the author the chance to add something of their own creation without abandoning the comfort of the familiar setting and characters. If I ever decide to take creative writing seriously this is probably a path I'd choose. It allows for some practice before I create an entire universe from scratch.

Really, I don't mind the attempts if they are well thoughtout. I once read a fic that used well over twenty of them, but the author thought ahead and they were well designed. The length of the fic allowed sufficient development and it was a good (and very long) read.

While I can't give you a checklist, I'll list a few things that I find to pet-peeves and big no-no's. These are just my opinions based on what I have seen on fanfiction.net over the years. Hopefully, this will be useful.

1) The Angsty Past:

In and of itself, this is not necessarily a problem. One of the reasons that it is the bane of the fanfic readers existence is that it is cliché. I mean really, really cliché. By far the most overused background story in all of fandom. Most of the time, it used to make the reader and the character's feel sorry for the OC. This is REALLY common in OCXNaruto character romance fics. I cannot count the number of romance fics I've come across that have this basic plot: OC has tragic past, OC's love interest feels sorry for them, console’s OC, and a couple of chapters later they are dating. If you write an OC fic, don't do this. You will probably be flamed for it.

I won't say avoid the tragic past, but be very careful how you use it. And for the love of God, don't use it as quick lead in to romance. I'm not saying an OC with such a past can never fall in love with a series character, but be very careful in using this approach if you use it.

In the end, I think it comes across as unrealistic for a person's past to full of angst and nothing else. So think about using a more balanced approach, rather than angsty event piled on angsty event piled on angsty event.

2) Family relationship with a main character.

I'm sure everyone here has read a fic like this: the Naruto's sister/brother and the long lost Uchiha fic. The Manga makes no mention of Naruto's family other than the fact that his parents are dead. With respect to Sasuke, I pretty sure it outright says that they clan is dead other than Itachi and Sasuke. In Naruto's case, the long lost sibling is slightly more plausible. In the Sasuke case, it is inconsistent with the Manga. Of course, this theme is not limited to these two families, but it is the most common version, IMO.

The biggest problem with this approach is that it is cliché. This is also very common in OC romance stories, especially when Naruto or Sasuke is the target of the OC. It is overused and often poorly developed.

I don't like this theme, even when it is well developed. But, this is more of a personal preference than anything else. I generally like the "dead family aspect" of Naruto and Sasuke. Giving them long lost family members takes this away from them.

This is not to say, don't explore the extended families of series characters, but I would avoid making them a main character OC's, unless you have a good reason to do so. My experience has been that OC family members (of any characters) have been more effective as side characters then as main characters.

3) Superman characters.

Ah, one of the most common complaints I've seen regarding OC's. I think the others covered this pretty well, so I don't have much to say about it. Powerful OC's aren't necessarily a problem one-hundred percent of the time, but it will almost inevitably taint the character from the get go, even if they are will developed. However, powerful OC's tend to get out of hand real fast. It’s one thing to be powerful, but it’s another to be so powerful that even Itachi wets his pants in front of you. I've seen the stronger than the Sannin, stronger than the Kage, and even stronger than the Kyuubi OC; often with no explanation of the source of their abilities. In other words, yhe ultimate badass.

The converse to this problem is, as I said before, the overflawed character succeeding despite the existence of numerous and possibly crippling flaws.

4) The In-series character

This really isn't an OC per se, but it has similar problems. The super-strong In-series (and usually OOC) character. The most common form that I have seen is the Powerful/Badass Naruto. In this case, he discovers and is trained by Kyuubi/Kakashi/Jiriaya/Itachi...etc. Here, Naruto usually comes across as the ultimate badass. He inwardly insults and bashes the other characters, believing them to be weaklings that are not worthy of his time. In the Naruto version, Sasuke always gets his ass kicked in front of the whole school. In addition, Naruto usually hides his true ability while playing the role of the weakling.

I've actually seen many Powerful/badass/cynical Naruto fics that I like. I just wanted to say that when altering a main character, be careful not to turn them into a MS.

5) After-the-fact/Oh-by-the-way justifications:

This is my biggest pet-peeve.

This is common for both OC's and altered In-series character's. What I usually see happen is the character will perform some jaw-dropping feat of greatness. As the author writes the scene, they realize that have not explained how the character came by this unique ability. For example, Naruto having the Sharingan or having Lee do something other than Taijutsu. Once the author realizes the plot whole they have created, they offer a quick, after-the fact explanation of the ability. When reading something like this, it comes across as an Oh-by-the-way line (i.e. Oh, by the way, Naruto was born an Uchiha). Granted, I've never seen that specific idea, but I've seen many like it.

In the Love-Hina context, I've seen this occur with Martial Artist/Kendo Keitaro. He has similar abilities to Motoko or Seta. What will happen is that Keitaro bests Motoko or Naru (I even think I saw him beat Tsuruko once). The author then realizes they didn't fully explain how something like this could happen and so they offer a quick throw-away line that he trained for X years by some master (Seta and Tsuruko are the most common).

This is not to say that you must lay out ever possible ability and fact before hand, but be careful when doing this.

My advice is to lay out the character and his or her background before writing the fic rather than doing it on-the fly.

6) OC Romance:

I won't lie, a story whose plot is completely centered around OC-In-series character romance tends to piss readers off and is an effective way to get flamed. All I can say is, you should probably avoid doing this.

Well, this is all I can think of right now and its getting late. If I can think of anything else I'll add it later.

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[MBKon]

oi Vespar, it's my fic .

[Vespar]

Whoa... Shriner, that's some seriously great advice!

I'll definitely do the 'plotting a background and making the traits around that' of your advice! (I'm starting a crossover, but the crossover character is completely open for interpretation)

Actually, I'm guilty of the 'making an inseries char OOC'. It's an epic series rewrite and I'd tried, honestly tried to make sure Naruto isn't over-powered and a genius. Heck, I'd planned out exactly what I'd make sure to write, but he still appears to have both traits. Though this is probably due to me intentionally with-holding most of that information and releasing it little by little. Bleh, requires too much planning as it was and now I gotta try to fix it all up...
Just another case writing too much, but still not enough, you know?

MBKon
Bleet... Sorry about that. I got kind of mixed up when I tried to remember parts of the thread without backtracking. =___=;;
If you want, I can take a look at your fic too.

One of the best advice I'd been given is... Never explain something through your notes. Ever. If you can't explain it thoroughly in the story, then work something else out.
This is usually the case when a deus ex machina is introduced. (lit. translation: God of the Machine: when a resolution occurs without proper planning; ie suddenly Sasuke shows up, saves Team 7, is accepted back into Konoha and everything is all hunky dory).