34 replies to this topic

[Bryon_Konoha_Ninja]

Thanks.
 
I mean, what does that really say about Naruto? That the antagonists he sees himself in are worthy of sympathy and aren't really that bad despite their crimes? That Obito really is the coolest guy ever? But those he doesn't see himself in, like Hidan, deserve to be killed without any sympathy in the name of revenge? That doesn't make Naruto look good, it makes him look egotistical. Like he's not seeing them for who they are. He sees them as extensions of himself, he's Talk-no-jutsuing himself and not in a way where he's trying to keep his own darkness in check.
 
And then if you remember that Naruto was partially based on Kishi himself...there's something really interesting to be said there.

Tell me about it. I think the original concept was for him to be empathetic, due to how others treated him allowing him to get an understanding of others deep down, but it got lost over time because of events and other stuff like poor writing.

Considering you see it with Konohamaru, Inari, as well as Tsunade, Neji, and even Sai to an extent, it shows it wasn't supposed to be made to be done only for those similar to Naruto, but because of how things went, it did become like that, making Naruto lose his way, like some other characters felt like they did because of what the story was "telling" us.

[James S Cassidy]

Tell me about it. I think the original concept was for him to be empathetic, due to how others treated him allowing him to get an understanding of others deep down, but it got lost over time because of events and other stuff like poor writing.

Considering you see it with Konohamaru, Inari, as well as Tsunade, Neji, and even Sai to an extent, it shows it wasn't supposed to be made to be done only for those similar to Naruto, but because of how things went, it did become like that, making Naruto lose his way, like some other characters felt like they did because of what the story was "telling" us.

 

This is why the Gaara TnJ is the only one that feel genuine because Naruto admits he has people by his side over time, while Gaara remained alone. It is okay for Naruto to admit that while he can relate he also had advantages and maybe even privileges. 

It is like what I told people. "When I can't find what I am looking for...I become what I am looking for and then what I was looking for comes and finds me."

[Bryon_Konoha_Ninja]

 

This is why the Gaara TnJ is the only one that feel genuine because Naruto admits he has people by his side over time, while Gaara remained alone. It is okay for Naruto to admit that while he can relate he also had advantages and maybe even privileges. 

It is like what I told people. "When I can't find what I am looking for...I become what I am looking for and then what I was looking for comes and finds me."

 

Nicely said, James. :) And I absolutely agree. We see that too when Naruto talked to Konohamaru at the end of Chapter/Episode 2 after he used the Harem Jutsu to beat Ebisu, about how he felt alone but was lucky when Iruka had acknowledged him, allowing him to go on the path he started on.

[Phantom_999]

Right so I figured that I'd go into more depth about my opinions on the talk-no-jutsu. It is a hit or miss, in all honesty depending on how you view it, sometimes it is done well enough, others it feels like an excuse to again promote the war is bad propaganda as I have said. Gaara, as brought up before, is one of the well done ones because while Naruto relents on how similar he is to Gaara that they were both hosts of monsters that never asked for and were viewed as monsters themselves and therefore isolated and alone Naruto also says he won't let Gaara kill what matters to him. As Nate already stated, It is one thing to come to an understanding, but even so sometimes two people just can't compromise, that is the nature of humans. Naruto's talk-no-jutsu is just a convenient all solving hammer in direct conflict that PAINTS him as compassionate, yet he does nothing to solve the underlying problems because there was not any thought put into it beyond having Naruto say it will work out because I say so, instead of offering proper solutions. In fact Naruto contradicts him self or the story contradicts these damn talk-no-jutsu morals later down the line. Naruto said to Nagato that he will achieve peace so others won't have to suffer from war anymore, he later said Sasuke is all that matter s to him and he will (not gayly I suppose) die together with Sasuke despite saying to Nagato that he will achieve peace. Kishi had Naruto lose Jiraiya so he could understand Sasuke's pain but show he chose the moral high ground to not be consumed by revenge. YET he still kisses Sasuke's kitten and says that excuses everything Sasuke did and hypocritically accepts it plus will just go down with Sasuke instead of pointing out he went through everything Sasuke did but is not taking it out on everyone and everything in anger. He could have said that yes he didn't have a family to begin with but he never asked or wanted for his parents to die before he could ever know them just like Sasuke never asked for his family to be murdered by his own brother. He could have said that both he and Sasuke both lost their families but still have a home with people waiting for them, Sasuke just chose to reject it. Naruto is not compassionate towards Sasuke of all people, he is showing condescending pity on him and says everything Sasuke does is okay because they are friends instead of knocking sense into him, like a true friend would and is only forcing his desires onto Sasuke. Not to mention the whole war is bad schtick is turned on it's head by the very nature of the 4th great ninja war. What was the reasoning of the ninja alliance going to war? to protect their world. sometimes you cant compromise on something because it means you lose everything, perfect example right here. You promote war as a bad thing, yet you choose to go to war because you have something to protect? And on that note, If Naruto's talk-no-jutsu is so effective on it's intended targets, how serious are the villains in their goals I wonder? They are willing to escalate to outright genocide to achieve their goals yet Naruto acts like they are misguided children that have no idea what they're doing. But are they not adults making their own choices like Naruto is?

 

Honestly my issue with the talk-no-jutsu is just how hypocritical it was and how lazily it was used. It says one thing but the writing undermines and contradicts it in the next moment. Boruto is the definitive proof of that. Naruto showed he talked a big game but didn't back it up.

Edited by Phantom_999, 22 November 2021 - 12:54 PM.

[Bryon_Konoha_Ninja]

Right so I figured that I'd go into more depth about my opinions on the talk-no-jutsu. It is a hit or miss, in all honesty depending on how you view it, sometimes it is done well enough, others it feels like an excuse to again promote the war is bad propaganda as I have said. Gaara, as brought up before, is one of the well done ones because while Naruto relents on how similar he is to Gaara that they were both hosts of monsters that never asked for and were viewed as monsters themselves and therefore isolated and alone Naruto also says he won't let Gaara kill what matters to him. As Nate already stated, It is one thing to come to an understanding, but even so sometimes two people just can't compromise, that is the nature of humans. Naruto's talk-no-jutsu is just a convenient all solving hammer in direct conflict that PAINTS him as compassionate, yet he does nothing to solve the underlying problems because there was not any thought put into it beyond having Naruto say it will work out because I say so, instead of offering proper solutions. In fact Naruto contradicts him self or the story contradicts these damn talk-no-jutsu morals later down the line. Naruto said to Nagato that he will achieve peace so others won't have to suffer from war anymore, he later said Sasuke is all that matter s to him and he will (not gayly I suppose) die together with Sasuke despite saying to Nagato that he will achieve peace. Kishi had Naruto lose Jiraiya so he could understand Sasuke's pain but show he chose the moral high ground to not be consumed by revenge. YET he still kisses Sasuke's kitten and says that excuses everything Sasuke did and hypocritically accepts it plus will just go down Sasuke instead of pointing out he went through everything Sasuke did but is not taking it out on everyone and everything in anger. He could have said that yes he didn't have a family to begin with but he never asked or wanted for his parents to die before he could ever know them just like Sasuke never asked for his family to be murdered by his own brother. He could have said that both he and Sasuke both lost their families but still have a home with people waiting for them, Sasuke just chose to reject it. Naruto is not compassionate towards Ssauke of all people, he is showing condescending pity on him and says everything Sasuke does is okay because they are friends instead of knocking sense into him, like a true friend would and is only forcing his desires onto Sasuke. Not to mention the whole war is bad schtick is turned on it's head by the very nature of the 4th great ninja war. What was the reasoning of the ninja alliance going to war? to protect their world. sometimes you cant compromise on something because it means you lose everything, perfect example right here. You promote war as a bad thing, yet you made a war because one side has something they want to protect? And on that note, If Naruto's talk-no-jutsu is so effective on it's intended targets, how serious are the villains in their goals I wonder? They are willing to escalate to outright genocide to achieve their goals yet Naruto acts like they are misguided children that have no idea what they're doing. But are they not adults making their own choices like Naruto is?
 
Honestly my issue with the talk-no-jutsu is just how hypocritical it was and how lazily it was used. It says one thing but the writing undermines and contradicts it in the next moment. Boruto is the definitive proof of that. Naruto showed he talked a big game but didn't back it up.

 
Which ties back to what I said about how the Talk no Jutsu obviously was meant to be to show Naruto's empathy, but with the crappy direction the series began to take, with the story being changed a lot in many cases, it became less about that. It just shows that with the way things are in Boruto if nothing really has changed.
 
And it ties also to how the backstory also hints of how things didn't become like how Hashirama wanted decades before, due to the other leaders as well as influence from others, which to me shapes Naruto and his current time in Boruto as well, considering Shikamaru and Kakashi, due to their fanaticism for the system even as much as it screwed them up, prevented Naruto from executing any real changes.

Edited by Bryon_Konoha_Ninja, 18 October 2021 - 04:42 PM.

[milan kyuubi]

It's even more stupid when you take into the account of The Last retconing everything left and right. All this time Naruto used emotions to TNJ someone. He did not even known what emotions were. It was all food for him.

[Bryon_Konoha_Ninja]

It's even more stupid when you take into the account of The Last retconing everything left and right. All this time Naruto used emotions to TNJ someone. He did not even known what emotions were. It was all food for him.

Exactly, and claiming he knows squat about love when he wasnt into Hinata like that. Further proof stupid decisions were to break what was meant to show how strong Narutos empathy is!

Edited by Bryon_Konoha_Ninja, 18 October 2021 - 05:12 PM.

[James S Cassidy]

Right so I figured that I'd go into more depth about my opinions on the talk-no-jutsu. It is a hit or miss, in all honesty depending on how you view it, sometimes it is done well enough, others it feels like an excuse to again promote the war is bad propaganda as I have said. Gaara, as brought up before, is one of the well done ones because while Naruto relents on how similar he is to Gaara that they were both hosts of monsters that never asked for and were viewed as monsters themselves and therefore isolated and alone Naruto also says he won't let Gaara kill what matters to him. As Nate already stated, It is one thing to come to an understanding, but even so sometimes two people just can't compromise, that is the nature of humans. Naruto's talk-no-jutsu is just a convenient all solving hammer in direct conflict that PAINTS him as compassionate, yet he does nothing to solve the underlying problems because there was not any thought put into it beyond having Naruto say it will work out because I say so, instead of offering proper solutions. In fact Naruto contradicts him self or the story contradicts these damn talk-no-jutsu morals later down the line. Naruto said to Nagato that he will achieve peace so others won't have to suffer from war anymore, he later said Sasuke is all that matter s to him and he will (not gayly I suppose) die together with Sasuke despite saying to Nagato that he will achieve peace. Kishi had Naruto lose Jiraiya so he could understand Sasuke's pain but show he chose the moral high ground to not be consumed by revenge. YET he still kisses Sasuke's kitten and says that excuses everything Sasuke did and hypocritically accepts it plus will just go down Sasuke instead of pointing out he went through everything Sasuke did but is not taking it out on everyone and everything in anger. He could have said that yes he didn't have a family to begin with but he never asked or wanted for his parents to die before he could ever know them just like Sasuke never asked for his family to be murdered by his own brother. He could have said that both he and Sasuke both lost their families but still have a home with people waiting for them, Sasuke just chose to reject it. Naruto is not compassionate towards Ssauke of all people, he is showing condescending pity on him and says everything Sasuke does is okay because they are friends instead of knocking sense into him, like a true friend would and is only forcing his desires onto Sasuke. Not to mention the whole war is bad schtick is turned on it's head by the very nature of the 4th great ninja war. What was the reasoning of the ninja alliance going to war? to protect their world. sometimes you cant compromise on something because it means you lose everything, perfect example right here. You promote war as a bad thing, yet you made a war because one side has something they want to protect? And on that note, If Naruto's talk-no-jutsu is so effective on it's intended targets, how serious are the villains in their goals I wonder? They are willing to escalate to outright genocide to achieve their goals yet Naruto acts like they are misguided children that have no idea what they're doing. But are they not adults making their own choices like Naruto is?

 

Honestly my issue with the talk-no-jutsu is just how hypocritical it was and how lazily it was used. It says one thing but the writing undermines and contradicts it in the next moment. Boruto is the definitive proof of that. Naruto showed he talked a big game but didn't back it up.

That is a good point. He will talk no jutsu and put down every other person for doing horrible things in the name of revenge, survival, and at times even because they were victims of a war-torn country. Some even have an legit reasons to do what they are doing. 

Oh BUUTTTT if Sasuke does anything for whatever reason and someone ELSE seeks justice for his wrong doing...now all of a sudden Sasuke throws all the preaching he just did out in the trash because "For Sasuke it is different...." Naruto begging the Raikage and hyperventilating because "Sasuke has to answer for his crimes and take responsibility" essentially was the most INSULTING plot element I have ever seen.

What was this series called "Naruto" again?

[BlueStarSaber]

Found this new video uploaded by a YouTuber talking about how naruto was not about being an underdog, but overcoming hatred. To be honest I don't think he gets the point on why people were upset about how the underdog themes were ruined nor why people got annoyed with how the cycle of hatred was handled (plus some unnecessary sakura bashing).

https://youtu.be/l2tgLkVVgfg

Edited by BlueStarSaber, 20 November 2021 - 11:31 PM.

[James S Cassidy]

Found this new video uploaded by a YouTuber talking about how naruto was about being an underdog, but overcoming hatred. To be honest I don't think he gets the point on why people were upset about how the underdog themes were ruined nor why people got annoyed with how the cycle of hatred was handled (plus some unnecessary sakura bashing).

https://youtu.be/l2tgLkVVgfg

 

Seriously, people need to watch Dodgeball: An Underdog story because that is exactly what it is. 

[Bryon_Konoha_Ninja]

Seriously, people need to watch Dodgeball: An Underdog story because that is exactly what it is.

Good call! There's lots of other kinds of golden underdog stories out there to check out

[Bail o' Lies]

I just remembered I never made another post of this topic. Then remembered I had a good post about the Talk no Jutsu. Somewhere so I put copying it here.

 

The story shows various characters that are suppose to represent what Naruto would be like if he turned "evil." Also, if you don't like evil how about dark or cynical? Haku, if Naruto became so desperate for affection he would turn himself into a human-weapon for anyone that showed him a little affection. Gaara, if Naruto believed no one could ever love him so he lashes out at the world and does acts of murder to prove he exist. Neji, if he resigned himself to the system and put down others for trying to make a change. Nagato, a student of Jiraiya that tries to fulfill his dream of peace but doesn't believe reforming the ninja system can be done peacefully. Obito, love of his life is killed so he gives up on the world. Boruto, if Naruto was a spoiled brat that always complained about his suffering but never did anything to improve it, and I swear whenever someone does evil/dark Naruto fanfic they often turn out like Boruto.

 

A lot of people seem to believe that being cynical and thinking the world sucks makes them smarter for figuring out, "the truth of the world." The thing is that on some level all the characters in Naruto know the ninja system sucks, cynical about the world, and resigned in the fact that nothing can change. What makes Naruto stand out is, that he wants to change it and believes he can. If not, at least he is trying. So, he brings hope to people who initially look down on him through them seeing his efforts; even if its just when facing them. That is the Talk-No-Jutsu. If he is cynical/dark/evil he is just one voice among many saying nothing can change and just give up. Of course, this important part of the story was neglected to chase after Sasuke and abandon for Hinata.

 

People that believe the Talk-no-Jutsu shows Naruto's massive persuasion power he has are just buying into a meme.

 

This has to get political for a second but look at how people treated Obama/Trump. They came in promising hope, change, and to fix the damages in the system. Lots of people bought into their promises and voted for them. (How you feel about them, I will leave up to people opinion of them, and hope we all leave it at that.) It is very similar to what Naruto did.

 

Now, for what was considered evil in the story. The characters actually had a very standard morality. The main difference is the societal pressure put on them, they were told since they were young to suppress those morals and their emotions by their ninja code. That told them to be emotionless tools is the ideal, which Naruto pretty much rejected by the first arc, and declared he would make his own way ninjas should live by. Beyond that don't betray your village seem to be what defines you as evil or not.

Edited by Bail o' Lies, 16 May 2025 - 01:30 PM.

[BlueStarSaber]

Frankly naruto reminds me of a third way centrist that promised change but did very little

[Bail o' Lies]

Pretty much. Ideally he is suppose to be a reformist, but how he acts in Boruto is just another cog in the machine that has changed very little.

 

Has anyone seen that animated Transformers Movie One last year. In it Optimus Prime was optimistic if a bit dim miner-bot that wanted to fix the problem their planet was having by trying to find the matrix of leadership, and prove their caste system wrong. Megatron was a loyal obedient miner-bot that worship their leader and though they should not question the system. Both were of the low caste cogless miner bots that entered a race only transformers were allowed to enter, a slighted transformer sent them to the lowest level which kickstart their adventure to discover the truth about the world. All the problem inflecting their world was their leaders fault: he betrayed their world to the enemy, killed all the primes, Primus shut down energon production in response to his actions, and he removed the transformation cog from certain cybertronians to create a caste to mine the energon that was left. Optimus was largely unaffected by the revelations because he already thought the system was unjust and needed to be changed. It broke Megatron he wanted to get revenge and even killed Optimus to get to him. Then Optimus revive with the matrix of leadership, defeated then banished Megatron, and then fixed the system. Megatron refusing to work with Optimus despite him fixing the problem Megatron had with the system due to both refusing to admit Optimus who he thought was a fool was right, and out of guilt for killing him in anger.

 

While not the same it is similar to and somewhat Naruto and Sasuke should've been. Naruto always somewhat hated the system for treating people like weapons and wanting to change it. Sasuke was content with the system as he wanted to fashion himself into a tool for revenge. No revelation truly broke Naruto because he always had a problem with the system. While learning the truth about his brother broke Sasuke. The problem with Naruto is Kishimoto never laid out what problems Naruto had with the system and how he was going to fix them. So when he became Hokage it was meaningless because what did he accomplish? Did he do anything as Hokage?

[BlueStarSaber]

Yeah I could see sasuke killing danzo simalr to how megatron killed his oppressor