749 replies to this topic

[Ryriena]

I thought it was a terrible idea for Itichi to become a so called good guy that was following orders which never laid a hint of during the first part of the manga.

[Bryon_Konoha_Ninja]

In terms of the current statement, I think in the long run, the truth behind Itachi was there subtle in part 1, even if it is hard to find sometimes, like how someone who killed his kin wouldn't wish to kill two people who stood in the way of his job. I mean, he did tell Asuma and Kurenai he didn't wish to kill them, which confused me before we learned the truth. So I disagree, but I wish it was handled better. =/

[SlyNinjaKnight]

I agree, I wish that Itachi had remained a villain, mainly because it would have given Sasuke a bit more depth as a character. If Itachi truly had massacred the Uchiha clan as a test of his power and had remained this psychotic murderer, then we as readers would have felt more sorry for Sasuke and his decisions would have been understandable. It also would have allowed Sasuke to possibly be redeemed properly at the end

[TouKen4Life3g]

I have to say I'm torn between the two.

On one hand, a villain Itachi, same backstory but without the sacrifice, would have been good. He can have complexity but it will be under the villain more so than grey-to-hero side. On the other hand, it was handled fair despite the torment and some questionable tactics. What really ruined it is him coming back to life. Not because he was brought back after his "tragic end," but we get more insight that really made things a lot more unbelievable.

So I guess I would say I agree, just because even with the same background, you could just say he lost his mind in the process, rather than "all according to plan."

Next one is coming very soon.

[Namikaze Clan]

I have to say I'm torn between the two.
On one hand, a villain Itachi, same backstory but without the sacrifice, would have been good. He can have complexity but it will be under the villain more so than grey-to-hero side. On the other hand, it was handled fair despite the torment and some questionable tactics. What really ruined it is him coming back to life. Not because he was brought back after his "tragic end," but we get more insight that really made things a lot more unbelievable.
So I guess I would say I agree, just because even with the same background, you could just say he lost his mind in the process, rather than "all according to plan."
Next one is coming very soon.

Can't wait to see what else you have planned. Great way to pass the time before Naruto GT comes out in Spring

[tricksie]

The 47 Ronin did disobey orders, however they acheived their revenge against the party responsible for their lord's death directly. They did not go in a round about way killing just anybody with a relation to that rival lord. There was no mass slaughter, just an act of war.

 

That story is heralded in Japanese lore to show the samurai's true unending devotion to their retainer. Itachi was no samurai, and chose an action out of, to be quite honest, selfish reasons. Yes he did choose the village first by becoming a double agent for Konoha, but once Sasuke was threatened and the thought of the clan name being forever tarnished he chose to kill his entire clan to save Sasuke and possibly the Uchiha name.

 

If anything you could call what he did an honor killing, and that's murder any way you wish to spell it. Like Rocci said, Kishi was just terrible at his justifications.

 

I only saw one tragic hero in this story and that was Minato. He sacrifices his life to the shinigami and possible normal life his son could've had to protect the village who would later dishonor his memory by treating his child like a leper. The classic no good deed goes unpunished.

 

We also forget that Itachi not only wiped out his family (which btw should have thrown Konoha into some sort of upheaval by destroying the police force as well as lowering their overall population of peace-loving civilians, which at least half of the Uchiha must have been. So the fact that he killed off the Uchihas and all Konoha did was close off their part of the village is over-simplified - it should have sent shockwaves through Konoha.)....

 

Anyway, back to what I was saying, Itachi not only wiped out his whole family, but he joined the most vicious criminal organization in existence at the time. WE DON'T KNOW WHO ELSE HE KILLED IN THE AKATSUKI.

 

His crimes didn't stop at the Uchiha gate. They had only just begun.

 

He was completely trusted in the 8+ years he was with the Akatsuki. That means he must have been a very good member. Especially if he was paired with Kisame.

 

Itachi wasn't a hero. He never wanted to be a hero. Instead he fully entered into the life of a villain.

 

I mean, couldn't he have just offed himself after he wiped out the Uchiha? Leaving only Sasuke alive and untouched to restart the clan? Or couldn't he have just faked his death and disappeared? Did he have to join the Akatsuki? Was that part of the bargain with the elders and Danzo and Sarutobi? Because if he was supposed to join the Akatsuki and be a double agent and send back info to Konoha, he sure as kitten didn't do it.

 

That's what makes him a villain to me. He could have made the sacrifice of himself and his family in a heroic way. But he didn't. There was nothing heroic in what he did, at any step. And joining and working for Akatsuki for years proves that. 

 

edit:

 

@TouKen: If you want to space topics out till we run out of discussion on one, that's an option too. Instead of doing one a day, or even every few days. Could do it over a week period, so everyone who logs on get a chance to weigh in and talk about it. Just thoughts. Loving this thread!! The stupid manga is over, but I'm still thinking about these things!! lol

[rocci]

A villain could be a good guy.
I agree with bryon that was the time when we could said that itachi is not a bad guy/pshycopat.

The problem I have with this is how kishi tried to put itachi as a freaking saint by justifying his action in uchiha massacre.

[TouKen4Life3g]

A villain could be a good guy.
I agree with bryon that was the time when we could said that itachi is not a bad guy/pshycopat.

The problem I have with this is how kishi tried to put itachi as a freaking saint by justifying his action in uchiha massacre.

Which again, reviving him was a mistake. It made it way too hard to even suspend disbelief.

[rocci]

Which again, reviving him was a mistake. It made it way too hard to even suspend disbelief.

That's a fanservice.
It actually undermine naruto vs sasuke impact.

[sushi.]

If Itachi was supposed to be a good one from the start, he wouldn't have tortured his little brother and Kakashi. :/ Obviously Kishi was swayed by his editors. His character could've been a well written one if it had been consistent, it wouldn't matter if he's bad or good. You don't make half a cake, just to change your mind and make a different cake, so you could smash them together and pretend they're the same.

 

I think this thread is interesting, but I actually think it'd be better if everyone could submit an opinion. That way it could be an ongoing game, like the 'which do you prefer' thread. Right now it's just another Itachi thread, but it's yours ~ so do what you want with it.

[Namikaze Clan]

If Itachi was supposed to be a good one from the start, he wouldn't have tortured his little brother and Kakashi. :/ Obviously Kishi was swayed by his editors. His character could've been a well written one if it had been consistent, it wouldn't matter if he's bad or good. You don't make half a cake, just to change your mind and make a different cake, so you could smash them together and pretend they're the same.
 
I think this thread is interesting, but I actually think it'd be better if everyone could submit an opinion. That way it could be an ongoing game, like the 'which do you prefer' thread. Right now it's just another Itachi thread, but it's yours ~ so do what you want with it.

He is going to do a new topic every day or possibly weekly. So it won't just be limited to Itatchi

[TouKen4Life3g]

I was going to have everyone do it but it can get messy and people will lose trace on what they wanted to answer. But don't worry. The next one is coming.

[TouKen4Life3g]

Statement: There should have been only one VotE Naruto vs. Sasuke, with either Naruto wins or a draw.

Agree or disagree?

[Namikaze Clan]

I assume VotE is valley of the end.

I disagree. Having the final battles of Part 1 and 2 be between Naruto and Sasuke was necessary and had the story come full circle (at least before the ending).

Sasuke had to win the first one due to plot reasons and I thought having a draw at the second one was fine. In a sense Naruto did win as he finally caused Sasuke to let go of his hatred.

[rocci]

Statement: There should have been only one VotE Naruto vs. Sasuke, with either Naruto wins or a draw.

Agree or disagree?

I agree that the battle in vote should happen just once.

But naruto vs sasuke should happen three times with :
Sasuke win, naruto win, and draw or sasuke win, draw, and naruto win.
With how the fight transpire in the lasted chapter of naruto, Kishi doesn't try to make naruto & sasuke equal. Instead he make that sasuke is superior than naruto, by making it draw.
I don't count hospital rooftop battle as naruto vs sasuke battle like vote.

[Yyubie]

Disagree. There should be at least 3 fights. The first one is exactly like at the end of part 1, and it end with draw. The second one should happen after Sasuke killed Danzou, they are both exhausted, Sasuke after fighting Danzou and Naruto after hearing the news from Garaa about Sasuke attacking 5 kage summit and from Sai after he said Sakura is about kill Sasuke ... it makes him almost got a heart attack and it should end with Sasuke victory and naruto critically injured to almost dead because at that point Naruto still confuse and still don't know what he should do as friend to save Sasuke he is afraid if he fight with his full power he might kill Sasuke and this should serve as a wake up punch for Sakura to move on from Sasuke. And the third fight should happen at the end of the manga after Naruto has learn everything including Body Flickering technique and he has the answer for what to do about Sasuke, basically at this point he is already complete as a main character with all the development and power up and it end with Naruto victory.

[Bryon_Konoha_Ninja]

 

We also forget that Itachi not only wiped out his family (which btw should have thrown Konoha into some sort of upheaval by destroying the police force as well as lowering their overall population of peace-loving civilians, which at least half of the Uchiha must have been. So the fact that he killed off the Uchihas and all Konoha did was close off their part of the village is over-simplified - it should have sent shockwaves through Konoha.)....

 

Anyway, back to what I was saying, Itachi not only wiped out his whole family, but he joined the most vicious criminal organization in existence at the time. WE DON'T KNOW WHO ELSE HE KILLED IN THE AKATSUKI.

 

His crimes didn't stop at the Uchiha gate. They had only just begun.

 

He was completely trusted in the 8+ years he was with the Akatsuki. That means he must have been a very good member. Especially if he was paired with Kisame.

 

Itachi wasn't a hero. He never wanted to be a hero. Instead he fully entered into the life of a villain.

 

I mean, couldn't he have just offed himself after he wiped out the Uchiha? Leaving only Sasuke alive and untouched to restart the clan? Or couldn't he have just faked his death and disappeared? Did he have to join the Akatsuki? Was that part of the bargain with the elders and Danzo and Sarutobi? Because if he was supposed to join the Akatsuki and be a double agent and send back info to Konoha, he sure as kitten didn't do it.

 

That's what makes him a villain to me. He could have made the sacrifice of himself and his family in a heroic way. But he didn't. There was nothing heroic in what he did, at any step. And joining and working for Akatsuki for years proves that. 

 

edit:

 

@TouKen: If you want to space topics out till we run out of discussion on one, that's an option too. Instead of doing one a day, or even every few days. Could do it over a week period, so everyone who logs on get a chance to weigh in and talk about it. Just thoughts. Loving this thread!! The stupid manga is over, but I'm still thinking about these things!! lol

 

It wasn't part of the deal, Tricks. Itachi did that to likely spy on the Akatsuki, being aware of their growing infamy and informing Hiruzen before he died, and his return with Kisame wasn't just on orders to try to obtain Kurama, but it was ALSO to let Danzo know he was alive, and that if he tried to hurt Sasuke, he would expose the Leaf's secrets to its enemies. Which is likely why Danzo had no qualms of killing Sasuke after the Gokage Summit... besides the fact he had likely wanted to kill him for a long time out of his fear. Just like he took Shisui's Sharingan because he coveted the power of Kotoamatsukami, even if Shisui could have used it to stop the coup.

[SlyNinjaKnight]

Statement: There should have been only one VotE Naruto vs. Sasuke, with either Naruto wins or a draw.

Agree or disagree?

 

I disagree. I liked the idea of having the two fights at the VotE between Naruto and Sasuke. The first one obviously signified the end of Part I, and it did so quite well IMO. I didn't mind the idea behind 'ending' the series with the rematch between Naruto and Sasuke but I hated the way it was done. I mean the fight only lasted like 5 chapters and both of them just kept pulling these OP moves out of their a**es way too easily. If Kishi had been a better writer, then perhaps the second fight would have been better but it was crap. I like the idea and the symmetry behind the idea but the execution was terrible.

[catsi563]

disagree, as others have said the 2nd VOTE fight would be the closing circle. coming back to the beginning where they finally resolve everything.

[Narufan85]

Statement: Despite Itachi being planned to be a hero, he should have remain a villain.
Agree or disagree?

 

Agree. Not every character needs a redemption arc. Sometimes it's ok if they stay a villain.

 

Statement: There should have been only one VotE Naruto vs. Sasuke, with either Naruto wins or a draw.
Agree or disagree?

Disagree. There is symmetry there Thai appreciate. Now, I don't think Kishi handled it well, but that's another matter.