127 replies to this topic

[rocci]

So you don't think it is OOC when Naruto simply kills off Kaguya instead of converting her like he did with all other villians?

He doesn't have any parallel with kaguya so he doesn't convert her.
The same could be said with madara, orochimaru, danzo,and that zombie duo. Tnj only work for villain who has something in common with naruto and so far there're only three villain characters who have that, garra, nagato, and obito. Sasuke is special case since plot demand he became good guy.


Oh and kaguya is simply plot device to get rid madara.

Naruto doesn't make love confession AND sasuke suddenly in love to sakura is what make NS doesn't happen, manga wise.

Edited by rocci, 03 November 2015 - 11:53 PM.

[Toby]

No connection?

- Kaguya is Naruto ancestor's grandma and he knows it
- Hagoromo told Naruto all about his mom, and Naruto knows Kaguya started off as a woman who brought peace upon the lands (like how Naruto likes it) THEN became corrupt.
- that is reason enough for Naruto to FIND OUT MORE
- Naruto did not KNOW beforehand that he had connections to Neji (a genius) yet he still forced Neji to spill his story. With Kaguya he has a little connection but he doesn't even make the attempt to hear her side of the story.


and she cried (The old Naruto would not heartlessly ignore a villian who cries.) The reason Naruto rasenshuriken'd Kakuzu instead of converting him is because he didn't have the goal of achieving "understanding" from highly dangerous criminals, it was afterwards when Jiraiya died and Naruto was faced with Nagato that he decided, "Hatred breeds only more hatred, so I won't hate. I'll just take away everyone's hatred."...
Yet he doesn't do it to Kaguya.

[rocci]

@toby
Yes, there's no connection. They have nothing in common.

Nagato is jiraiya student, that's their common ground while kakuzu doesn't have any conection with naruto.

[Nar123]

No connection?

- Kaguya is Naruto ancestor's grandma and he knows it
- Hagoromo told Naruto all about his mom, and Naruto knows Kaguya started off as a woman who brought peace upon the lands (like how Naruto likes it) THEN became corrupt.
- that is reason enough for Naruto to FIND OUT MORE
- Naruto did not KNOW beforehand that he had connections to Neji (a genius) yet he still forced Neji to spill his story. With Kaguya he has a little connection but he doesn't even make the attempt to hear her side of the story.


and she cried (The old Naruto would not heartlessly ignore a villian who cries.) The reason Naruto rasenshuriken'd Kakuzu instead of converting him is because he didn't have the goal of achieving "understanding" from highly dangerous criminals, it was afterwards when Jiraiya died and Naruto was faced with Nagato that he decided, "Hatred breeds only more hatred, so I won't hate. I'll just take away everyone's hatred."...
Yet he doesn't do it to Kaguya.

 

 

Naruto needs to have some kind of shared past/connection with the future victim of his TnJ for him to actually care about such person

 

so anyway

 

- Naruto was clear on the matter that he isn't his ancestor, I don't see this as a reason he should care about Kaguya or anyone should for that matter

- Still not too much of a shared past or connection with him, compare it to Gaara, Obito, Nagato and other victims of the TnJ, everone had something in common with Naruto so that the MC could actually relate to them

- no, it isn't

- Naruto didn't forced Neji to spill his story he just fought to win no matter what and Neji only told his story because it was relevant to his whole "destiny" preaching, that fight was actually good because there was no heavy TnJ involved, Naruto's sheer determination and Hiashi's words after the fight were the things that changed Neji

 

 

Man, this story is a mess and you trying to somehow make sense of it is just showing how much of a mess it is

Kaguya was shoehorned, when she was introduced the world stopped being about "hatred breeds more hatred" and turned into "everything was just a convoluted plan in which black zetsu was the puppetmaster orchestrating things for his mother with 0 personality to come back and turn everyone in white zetsus because reasons"

 

Kaguya's introduction wasn't planned and her crying role even makes less sense (being probably a stupid way Kishi used to try to humanize Kaguya somehow) considering she is a piece of blank paper that existed only to make Toneri canon in the last and as a safe way to kill off OP Madara

 

In any case, you're also wrong about Sakura stopping from loving Naruto because he changed ( according to retconned canon: she never had feelings for him) and in the way you tried to estabilish a parallel with Naruto and Hashirama comparing Madara with Kaguya ( which is wrong since Madara's parallel was Sasuke), Hashirama killed his friend, Naruto managed to save his, somehow

 

In any case, the story is just trash now, trying to make sense of it will just lead nowhere

Edited by Nar123, 04 November 2015 - 12:56 AM.

[Toby]

Naruto needs to have some kind of shared past/connection with the future victim of his TnJ for him to actually care about such person

 

 

No, Naruto automatically cares about EVERYONE because Naruto's goal was to stop all wars and find a solution to create world peace, instead of going Hashirama's route of simply overpowering and taking out a villian. He won't share the same past/connection with EVERYONE but he would still establish some sort of understanding and make a villian into becoming "good." Like with Kurama, Naruto doesn't share a past connection but he still said something like "I'll go after your hatred someday!" and he seemed to be on a roll, doing that to everyone remotely evil that he ENCOUNTERED.

 

Man, this story is a mess and you trying to somehow make sense of it is just showing how much of a mess it is

 

lol I'm trying to interpret this mess in an unorthodox way that at least makes sense :\

 

 

Kaguya was shoehorned, when she was introduced the world stopped being about "hatred breeds more hatred" and turned into "everything was just a convoluted plan in which black zetsu was the puppetmaster orchestrating things for his mother with 0 personality to come back and turn everyone in white zetsus because reasons"

 

 

 

that doesn't neglect what NARUTO himself learned about life: "Hatred breeds more hatred."

Therefore Naruto must never hate, Naruto must never end someone's life permanently (because that's hatred) Naruto must try to establish true understanding/peace. - but he gives up.
 

 

In any case, you're also wrong about Sakura stopping from loving Naruto because he changed ( according to retconned canon: she never had feelings for him)

 

 

yeah well excluding The Last logic,

Sakura DID have feelings for Naruto at various points

 

 

 

 

estabilish a parallel with Naruto and Hashirama comparing Madara with Kaguya ( which is wrong since Madara's parallel was Sasuke), Hashirama killed his friend, Naruto managed to save his, somehow

 

 

 

It's not about Madara=Sasuke/Kaguya parallel. Hashirama meant to never give up on people even if they're beyond his understanding (a.k.a. enemy Madara) but he made the mistake of giving up and 'killing' him.  Naruto had meant to never kill someone without trying to establish peace/understanding, no matter who the person was.

[James S Cassidy]

Naruto actually "broke character" long before Kaguya even showed up. As King of Lightning pointed out, one of the biggest things in the story was that destiny was crap and our fates are not predetermined. Now for a while Naruto told both Neji and a few others that fate and destiny are crap. We make our own destiny. Naruto was supposed to be seen as the one who was destined to be weak, but became strong. Instead, the biggest power-up he got was all because he was the "Reincarnation of Ashura."

In the end, Neji was right. Those who were destined to be crap became crap and those who were destined to be great became great and while earlier on Naruto denied this and even downright rejected it....instead he accepted it and actually supported it. Think about the things he said in Gaiden and what Kishimoto wrote for Naruto in the later series.

All the big speeches Naruto said earlier in the manga, the war arc and later series made him become the biggest kitten artist of all. He became a huge hypocrite and worse when everyone else did it, he called them terrible people or stupid for it, but it is okay for Naruto to lie, cheat, and be one to accept his destiny.

 

Edited by James S Cassidy, 04 November 2015 - 01:36 AM.

[Nar123]

 
No, Naruto automatically cares about EVERYONE because Naruto's goal was to stop all wars and find a solution to create world peace, instead of going Hashirama's route of simply overpowering and taking out a villian. He won't share the same past/connection with EVERYONE but he would still establish some sort of understanding and make a villian into becoming "good." Like with Kurama, Naruto doesn't share a past connection but he still said something like "I'll go after your hatred someday!" and he seemed to be on a roll, doing that to everyone remotely evil that he ENCOUNTERED.

lol are you mistaking Naruto for Jesus or something ?
Seriously that's not how the TnJ works... I mean did you see Naruto trying to TnJ Obito initially when he was just a masked guy? Did you see Naruto trying to TnJ Madara? No...and these events happened after Pein arc as well

Naruto just uses his TnJ on people that are alike him and he can relate to them, hell he even used that in gaiden when talking to Salad

And how can you say Naruto has no connection with Kurama? Seriously?
 
 

lol I'm trying to interpret this mess in an unorthodox way that at least makes sense :\

Why event try? It's a waste of time, manga got asspulled and retconned, end of story
 
 

that doesn't neglect what NARUTO himself learned about life: "Hatred breeds more hatred."
Therefore Naruto must never hate, Naruto must never end someone's life permanently (because that's hatred) Naruto must try to establish true understanding/peace. - but he gives up.
 

This was a story theme and like others it got ignored and kittented on by Kishi himself

This theme became pointless the moment it was revealed everything that happened was a plan made and manipulated by Black Zetsu, suddenly the enemy isnt just the cycle of hatred but an actual enemy that was manipulating everything

This is lazy writing

 

yeah well excluding The Last logic,
Sakura DID have feelings for Naruto at various points

 
 

 

That's why I say she had no feelings for him in retconned canon
 

It's not about Madara=Sasuke/Kaguya parallel. Hashirama meant to never give up on people even if they're beyond his understanding (a.k.a. enemy Madara) but he made the mistake of giving up and 'killing' him.  Naruto had meant to never kill someone without trying to establish peace/understanding, no matter who the person was.

What Hashirama did wasnt a mistake and Naruto never meant that, Naruto's whole goal in the entirety of part 2 was save Sasuke and then in later part 2 it was also "bring peace to the world...somehow"... it's never specified how he will go about it though and its never shown to us either

In any case he didnt try to establish contact early on when he didnt knew who Tobi was, with white Zetsu, with Madara, with Kaguya...which essentially kills your point

By trying to put a sense in this story you are creating concepts and factors that didn't even exist in the canon manga, its just easier to accept the ending makes no sense whatsoever thanks to Kishi's awful writing

Edited by Nar123, 04 November 2015 - 02:09 AM.

[TouKen4Life3g]

Chapter 297 is something that actually can be seen as why everything is bs. I never seen a ignored point unless it's a live action due to actor/actress leaving.

[rocci]

Chapter 297 is something that actually can be seen as why everything is bs. I never seen a ignored point unless it's a live action due to actor/actress leaving.

What is chapter 297?

[TouKen4Life3g]

What is chapter 297?

The infamous Yamato's line.

[Konoha'sCrimsonFox]

Man these threads just spaming more pointless debates over and over again. Why can't people get it through their thick skull the that "original" manga was incomplete and replaced with a "retcon" ending. You have the TL conforming this. There you go. Kishi gave up and the studio, magazine and manga house wanted to use the next gen to cater to the west that was thought to be a gold mine.

[Toby]

^The only reason I still care about this series is fanfiction

[Nar123]

^The only reason I still care about this series is fanfiction

Then embrace the fanon and forget about canon

[SlyNinjaKnight]

^The only reason I still care about this series is fanfiction

 

 

Then embrace the fanon and forget about canon

 

Well what's the difference between the two? I mean Kishimoto has constantly gone back and retcon'd the entire series with the Last and his constant contradictions in interviews he's made since last year, so you could make the argument that now the entire series is just a fan fiction from an actual and published author. 

[db84x]

Then embrace the fanon and forget about canon

 

Good idea, lamenting canon is useless.

[Hanabi]

 

Good idea, lamenting canon is useless.

shut up and gtfo

[Toby]

Fanon made canon into trash. Fanon=SasuSaku.
Search up SasuSaku on a fanfic site you get 30000 stories more than triple what NaruSaku has, search up SasuKarin you get only like 36 one shots. All this was BEFORE the ending came out. I was a SS-fan because I embraced Fanon which made it doable, but I did not want this for CANON.

Anything can happen in fanon. Fanon has too large a range, it has old AUs where Tobi is actually Madara, Tobi is still a comedic clown, Tobi is not Obito, some have Tobi as Obito.

Canon is messy but it makes it consistent. Stories try to fit in canonverse. Should I just write an AU on today's date, where, Tobi is Madara, new readers who completed the series will say it makes no sense since Madara's corpse is under a cave. Or something.

In most of my stories I ignore Kaguya's existence (like the majority of old fanfics do) which is much easier to pull off than changing TOBI'S identity from canon. It's also easy to ignore, that the ending never happened, reincarnations never happened, etc.


My fanon can also be post-canon. A Fanon can interpret canon differently from how everyone else sees it. In fanon, SS could have happened because Sasuke felt like one-upping Naruto and threatened Sakura behind the scenes. Being a reincarnation he could easily destroy half the world as collateral damage if he went all out against Naruto, and Sakura decided "Okay. I'll do what you want Sasuke-"kun"" Blah. kittened up story but still fanon in canon.

This thread is fanon.

[Toby]

Hashi killing Madara was a mistake and even Madara said, "You changed, Hashirama." the entire manga tried to portray it as a mistake that Naruto won't repeat


Naruto's Post-Pein "bring peace to the world...somehow" = no killing, no revenge, NO KILLING ENEMIES. ---> practically kills kaguya = sign that Naruto went back on his word.

Edited by Toby, 04 November 2015 - 08:24 PM.

[Toby]

About Naruto accepting that he was a reincarnation how did you expect him to act? "NO I AM NOT YOUR REINCARNATED SON, SCREW YOU AND KEEP YOU POWA--"

Sage: "just accept that you are Ashura or I won't give you free powers and the shinobi alliance will die."

Naruto: "....ok dad, I accept you as my dad.... :("

Sage: *free powerup for you*

------

Or something like, "YOU CAN KEEP YOUR POWER TO YOURSELF" *Naruto runs from the prospect of free powerups and tries to fight Kaguya without it, btw Sasuke got the full thing this time instead of 1/2th.*


-----

I don't think, WITHIN the manga, Naruto broke character. He has a brain :/

[Nar123]

Fanon made canon into trash. Fanon=SasuSaku.
Search up SasuSaku on a fanfic site you get 30000 stories more than triple what NaruSaku has, search up SasuKarin you get only like 36 one shots. All this was BEFORE the ending came out. I was a SS-fan because I embraced Fanon which made it doable, but I did not want this for CANON.
Anything can happen in fanon. Fanon has too large a range, it has old AUs where Tobi is actually Madara, Tobi is still a comedic clown, Tobi is not Obito, some have Tobi as Obito.
Canon is messy but it makes it consistent. Stories try to fit in canonverse. Should I just write an AU on today's date, where, Tobi is Madara, new readers who completed the series will say it makes no sense since Madara's corpse is under a cave. Or something.
In most of my stories I ignore Kaguya's existence (like the majority of old fanfics do) which is much easier to pull ioff than changing TOBI'S identity from canon. It's also easy to ignore, that the ending never happened, reincarnations never happened, etc.
My fanon can also be post-canon. A Fanon can interpret canon differently from how everyone else sees it. In fanon, SS could have happened because Sasuke felt like one-upping Naruto and threatened Sakura behind the scenes. Being a reincarnation he could easily destroy half the world as collateral damage if he went all out against Naruto, and Sakura decided "Okay. I'll do what you want Sasuke-"kun"" Blah. kittened up story but still fanon in canon.
This thread is fanon.

What made canon into trash was Kishi's inability as a writer

A good writer in fanon can actually develop SS and or NH in an acceptable manner, granted those who can do this are quite rare and now with the messy ending we got, these writers will be even more rare since the majority will use estabilished crap canon in their stories

However there was a quite good surge of NS fanfics and fanarts just after the ending so if you still enjoy Naruto just stick to the side of fanon you like more (I suppose its NS) and contribute to it if you can instead of trying to find some shred of consistency in the mess Kishi made