183 replies to this topic

[rocci]

Unfortunately, that would still make the pairing look bad as well because, as mentioned, without the proper development to go along with it, all it does is make Naruto still look like a scumbag by simply "settling for second best" or something.

I don't think settling for second best would make naruto a scumbag.
It only make nh a "silver medal". Personally I never see there's something wrong with silver medal argument.

[tricksie]

Wouldn't matter to me because the ending with NH isn't the problem. 

 

The problem is that the beginning is set up with Naruto setting Sakura's love as his goal. And 95% of the story was built on that premise, with Hinata showing up for only 15 of the 600 chapters (or something like that). Any NH ending is wrong, whether in a movie or the anime or the manga.

 

There isn't a retcon big enough to make NH valid.  

 

The only way would be to create more manga chapters or a movie addressing Naruto moving on from his first love. Not a damsel-in-distress movie focused on Hinata, but a story based on Naruto, his maturing, his acknowledgement of his love for Sakura and his choice to move on. 

 

That has never happened. The ending was all about Hinata and her feelings, not Naruto's. Naruto was left out completely.

[rocci]

@tricksie
Some said that naruto love to sakura is not part of his goal.
Do you agree with that?

[tricksie]

@tricksie
Some said that naruto love to sakura is not part of his goal.
Do you agree with that?

It's only in retrospect that we are informed that Sakura was not part of his goal. (I say informed, because there is nothing in the manga and very little in the movie that explains his change of heart. The truly negative views of Naruto's love of Sakura came from Kishimoto himself.)

 

Up until 599 she was part of his goal. It's like there are two different stories: 1-599 focused on NS, and post-600 focused on NH.

[soraandven]

no naruhina was always a weak and shallow pairing he killed a character to force them together which is wrong and i hope some people at nycc call him out on that tomorrow 

[soraandven]

a tumblr friend of mine said she would ask masashi why he destroyed naruto and sakura's bond but i bet he will dodge that question cuz that fool has no balls

[James S Cassidy]

It's only in retrospect that we are informed that Sakura was not part of his goal. (I say informed, because there is nothing in the manga and very little in the movie that explains his change of heart. The truly negative views of Naruto's love of Sakura came from Kishimoto himself.)

 

Up until 599 she was part of his goal. It's like there are two different stories: 1-599 focused on NS, and post-600 focused on NH.

You also can say that people only can say this AFTER the fact that the ending became what it was. During the manga run, however, even NH and SS saw a huge threat in NS even before  it was only until 699-700 did this "notion" was put forth and like you said, was put in by interviews with Kishimoto. Not the manga. In fact, the manga tells a completely different story especially in Gaiden where Naruto looks like he is full of regret for not being with Sakura at all and just settled for Hinata because no one else wanted him.

 

Like the rest have said. Take away the movie and it looks even worse and has even less reason for NH to happen. The interviews say one thing, the manga says another, and the movie gives a third option. Which one to believe? Can;t say "what Kishimoto wrote and endorsed" because this is the same man who did Road to Ninja which was heavy NS oriented and described as "what he couldn't do in the manga, but wanted to."

The sad part is, I am not sure what Naruto's goal was really.

In part 1, he only wanted to become Hokage because he wanted people to respect him. However, he got that respect and love he wanted way back in Pein arc, no need to be Hokage now for that. In part 2, he wanted to be Hokage to change the world and yet the world changed long before he became Hokage. You could say he wanted to become Hokage to change the system, but he didn't do that either.

Really, what as Naruto's goal in becoming Hokage by the end? Because I can't think of any. To get his face on Konoha Rushmore?

 

It's always funny how Naruto love for Sakura was never "apart of his goals," but apparently they praise Hinata for this being her ONLY goal. They say that the movie is not about romance, but then Hinata's love is that mattered to them.

 

Edited by James S Cassidy, 09 October 2015 - 07:39 PM.

[sushi.]

@tricksie
Some said that naruto love to sakura is not part of his goal.
Do you agree with that?

I agree with that, at least if you mean goal as in marry her and all of that. Sure it was a wish, but not a goal. He said stuff like "maybe if I get strong, Sakura will like me" and asked her on dates, but it was never big like saving Sasuke and becoming Hokage. Naruto's love for Sakura is selfless. He deems his feelings unrequited, so instead of trying to make her fall for him, he tried on making her happy instead. Without knowing how big part of her happiness he was a part of. Then she fell for him anyway, and it was unintentional from both sides and I think that's a big plus. He would've never been done making her happy, so it isn't a goal because you never finish being a good and genuine friend. And that is a very good thing and not an anti-ns argument like a lot of people use it as.

 

Getting the girl is the goal of the narrative, not Naruto's personal goal. tbh I usually hate love stories where it's about the guy getting the girl who hates him. But I think NS fixes everything that is wrong with that trope. Example; a lot of anti-NS complains about the friendzone and that's why they think it's sexist. I find it more forgivable because Naruto's character was the complete opposite of the guy who whines about friendzone.

[James S Cassidy]

I agree with that, at least if you mean goal as in marry her and all of that. Sure it was a wish, but not a goal. He said stuff like "maybe if I get strong, Sakura will like me" and asked her on dates, but it was never big like saving Sasuke and becoming Hokage. Naruto's love for Sakura is selfless. He deems his feelings unrequited, so instead of trying to make her fall for him, he tried on making her happy instead. Without knowing how big part of her happiness he was a part of. Then she fell for him anyway, and it was unintentional from both sides and I think that's a big plus. He would've never been done making her happy, so it isn't a goal because you never finish being a good and genuine friend. And that is a very good thing and not an anti-ns argument like a lot of people use it as.

 

Getting the girl is the goal of the narrative, not Naruto's personal goal. tbh I usually hate love stories where it's about the guy getting the girl who hates him. But I think NS fixes everything that is wrong with that trope. Example; a lot of anti-NS complains about the friendzone and that's why they think it's sexist. I find it more forgivable because Naruto's character was the complete opposite of the guy who whines about friendzone.

It may not have been his ultimate goal, but to deny it wasn't a part of him is being more than foolish about it. That's why I hate fans who ignore this part of Naruto, yet focus only on this aspect of Hinata or Sakura. This truly show cases that it is sexist against men saying their feelings don't matter, meanwhile it is sexist towards women because to the Naruto fandom...a women is only truly defined by her love life. 

It was a part of his character, a part of his personality.

Edited by James S Cassidy, 10 October 2015 - 05:40 PM.

[sushi.]

It may not have been his ultimate goal, but to deny it wasn't a part of him is being more than foolish about it. That's why I hate fans who ignore this part of Naruto, yet focus only on this aspect of Hinata or Sakura. This truly show cases that it is sexist against men saying their feeling don;t matter, meanwhile it is sexist towards women because to the Naruto fandom...a women is only truly defined by her love life. 

It was a part of his character, a part of his personality.

yea I agree with everything except the sexism against men part.

[James S Cassidy]

yea I agree with everything except the sexism against men part.

Well, I am a man....and I am offended by it. A man's feelings should be taken into consideration too. We are not trophies or a prize to be won just because women compete.  You don't have to agree, but just because someone disagrees doesn't make it any less true.

If the only reason why NH should be canon is because "Hinata deserves him," then it's wrong and it's sexist.

Edited by James S Cassidy, 10 October 2015 - 05:45 PM.

[Phantom_999]

Yeah how is that any less offensive than saying a guy should get a girl cause "he deserves her"? either case it's saying one sex or another is a prized to be earned. But in the case of a girl deserving a guy it's not "objectifying"

Edited by Phantom_999, 10 October 2015 - 05:55 PM.

[Bail o' Lies]

The problem is that nH would have always been a hard match to accept. Since it was a last minute pairing that had little to no development. Some would have accepted it some would not. What was bad about the Last was that it was so bad that almost everyone hated it. Which soured them towards the pairing and the series with the only one liking it were the fanatical nH/SS fans and people that don't really put much thought into what they are watching.

Edited by Bail o' Lies, 10 October 2015 - 07:05 PM.

[Narufan85]

Well, I am a man....and I am offended by it. A man's feelings should be taken into consideration too. We are not trophies or a prize to be won just because women compete.  You don't have to agree, but just because someone disagrees doesn't make it any less true.

If the only reason why NH should be canon is because "Hinata deserves him," then it's wrong and it's sexist.

 

It's not sexist. It is, however, another example of why men should be feminists. Cultural assumptions about how men and women should behave—whether that's in the US, Japan, Europe, South America, wherever—don't just create instances of sexism, but a sense of toxic masculinity. Just because men benefit from the patriarchy doesn't mean it still can't be damaging.

In this case, it's that dismissive attitude towards men's emotions.

[Bail o' Lies]

You also can say that people only can say this AFTER the fact that the ending became what it was. During the manga run, however, even NH and SS saw a huge threat in NS even before  it was only until 699-700 did this "notion" was put forth and like you said, was put in by interviews with Kishimoto. Not the manga. In fact, the manga tells a completely different story especially in Gaiden where Naruto looks like he is full of regret for not being with Sakura at all and just settled for Hinata because no one else wanted him.

 

Like the rest have said. Take away the movie and it looks even worse and has even less reason for NH to happen. The interviews say one thing, the manga says another, and the movie gives a third option. Which one to believe? Can;t say "what Kishimoto wrote and endorsed" because this is the same man who did Road to Ninja which was heavy NS oriented and described as "what he couldn't do in the manga, but wanted to."

The sad part is, I am not sure what Naruto's goal was really.

In part 1, he only wanted to become Hokage because he wanted people to respect him. However, he got that respect and love he wanted way back in Pein arc, no need to be Hokage now for that. In part 2, he wanted to be Hokage to change the world and yet the world changed long before he became Hokage. You could say he wanted to become Hokage to change the system, but he didn't do that either.

Really, what as Naruto's goal in becoming Hokage by the end? Because I can't think of any. To get his face on Konoha Rushmore?

 

It's always funny how Naruto love for Sakura was never "apart of his goals," but apparently they praise Hinata for this being her ONLY goal. They say that the movie is not about romance, but then Hinata's love is that mattered to them.

 

It double standards and contradictions to suit their desires and the narrative they want.

[sushi.]

Well, I am a man....and I am offended by it. A man's feelings should be taken into consideration too. We are not trophies or a prize to be won just because women compete.  You don't have to agree, but just because someone disagrees doesn't make it any less true.

If the only reason why NH should be canon is because "Hinata deserves him," then it's wrong and it's sexist.

Yeah how is that any less offensive than saying a guy should get a girl cause "he deserves her"? either case it's saying one sex or another is a prized to be earned. But in the case of a girl deserving a guy it's not "objectifying"

fcking christ I didn't say it wasn't cruel. But based on this and past discussions on this site, you seem to be the kind of guy that thinks sexism is being 'mean' to a certain gender, yet if it was that simple it wouldn't be an ism/a set of ideas and principles that created what we know today as the patriarchy.

It's not sexist. It is, however, another example of why men should be feminists. Cultural assumptions about how men and women should behave—whether that's in the US, Japan, Europe, South America, wherever—don't just create instances of sexism, but a sense of toxic masculinity. Just because men benefit from the patriarchy doesn't mean it still can't be damaging.

 

In this case, it's that dismissive attitude towards men's emotions.

Yes I think it is toxic masculinity as well. People criticize the ending for not respecting the guys' emotions, and I agree with that, but I also want to offer another side of things; They are shown to be not very emotional at all, generally speaking. They look dead inside tbhXD. Compare them to the girls, whose lives and character significance is at the mercy of their love interest. Sakura opens up a clinic to keep her mind off of Sas, and she is not important to the plot if Sas is not involved, even if he is it is a big maybe. Hinata was only a main character in her love story TL, in the Boruto movie she's barely there. It was a family movie just like RtN, yet Kushina was as important as Minato in that movie.

 

Even if Sasuke went against his emotions to marry Sakura(which is not shown, it's a kittening guess because we don't recognize these characters anymore), it didn't take away his freedom. He still does whatever the kitten he wants. Naruto too. They still lead the same life they would if they had not married their spouses, I think they would have the same life(just with other people), had the ending been not retcon. Now look at Sakura, it is confirmed that she also had to wipe off her growing feelings for Naruto and not move on from Sasuke, and who's now living in dept as a lonely single mother. They're in a similar situation, yet people say only women's feelings matter. Let's put a twist on it; in a way, Naruto and Sasuke's emotions mattered so much that the only way they would marry Hinata and Sakura was to cleanse them off completely, and now they don't give a kitten. It's like in TVD where they turn their humanity off .

 

However, SNS still care about eachother and not anything else apparently, because the ship is loved by Kishi and the fandom. Boruto movie is his proudest work and self-proclaimed masterpiece, and his most popular movie. Compare that to NH which is only loved by fans, or NS which Kishi believes is only loved by him.

Edited by sushi., 10 October 2015 - 08:33 PM.

[rocci]

Fandom love sns? Fandom as a whole acknowledge it, but I don't think they love it.

[sushi.]

Fandom love sns? Fandom as a whole acknowledge it, but I don't think they love it.

japan loves sns. That was why boruto movie crossed so high.

[rocci]

japan loves sns. That was why boruto movie crossed so high.

Well, the last is high too, does it mean that japan love nh too.

[HalfDemonInuyasha]

Honestly, both genders lost with the Naruto ending and beyond...