62 replies to this topic

[The Deity Zero]

Eh it's a complex situation. I can't really tell who is at fault.

[sushi.]

It doesn't matter if the victim was an honourable student, had a bright future and a clean record, or a newbie robber. You don't shoot a 17 year old high school kid 8 times on the street and leave him there to rot. That is not the punishment for stealing.

[Jake]

It doesn't matter if the victim was an honourable student, had a bright future and a clean record, or a newbie robber. You don't shoot a 17 year old high school kid 8 times on the street and leave him there to rot. That is not the punishment for stealing.

 

He was 18. and reportedly Brown tried to grab officer Wilson's sidearm during a physical altercation.

[TouKen4Life3g]

So let me get this straight. Now the story actually give some percent to blame Brown for this moment, as in lower the charge of this horrific incident? I know the officer should be blamed by all means, but this type of story is like "Well, he was doing something wrong, so while you did it wrong, at least you did it to a guy who did a crime to say the least." I don't know, but this is getting complicated.

[Sakamaki Izayoi]

He was 18. and reportedly Brown tried to grab officer Wilson's sidearm during a physical altercation.

Even so it's no excuse to shoot.
The problem is that the police is unprepared due to the violence of our current times.
It's not easy to be a police officer in a coutry that almost everyone own a gun.

Edited by Dαrkrєrsŧ, 15 August 2014 - 08:30 PM.

[Mik3]

I think the rap group NWA, famously had the right three words to say about the police.

[Jake]

Even so it's no excuse to shoot.
The problem is that the police is unprepared due to the violence of our current times.
It's not easy to be a police officer in a coutry that almost everyone own a gun.

 

Brown was 6'4" and almost 300lbs. he punched the Officer in the face causing his face to swell up and repotedly Brown tried to grab the officer Wilson's sidearm, at that point  Wilson would have been in reasonable fear of great bodily harm and possibly death making it Justifiable use of deadly force.

 

 

Actually police departments here in the U.S. are more over prepared then anything, a topic that has come up in the news because of this story is that the police departments across the nation are becoming more and more militarized. The body armor I can understand, fully automatic weapons yeah I can see that they might need them for emergencies, but tanks no, no reason, if it's that bad the Governor should just declare martial law and send in the National Guard.

 

 

And another thing, while there are almost as meany firearms owned by private citizens as there are citizens, less than half of Americans actually own a firearm as most people who own a firearm own more than one, also areas where it is easier to legally obtain a firearm have much lower crime rates, and this is true globally countries like Israel, Switzerland and New Zealand  have the lowest crime rates in the world and firearms are very east to obtain, meanwhile you have countries like Mexico and Honduras where firearms are banned have the highest crime rates in the world.

[KonaKonaFan]

 

Brown was 6'4" and almost 300lbs. he punched the Officer in the face causing his face to swell up and repotedly Brown tried to grab the officer Wilson's sidearm, at that point  Wilson would have been in reasonable fear of great bodily harm and possibly death making it Justifiable use of deadly force.

 

This is all unproven.

[Win-chan]

I don't know much about this story at all. What I DO know is that death is extreme, and death is permanent. Killing someone spur of the moment is NOT okay. You don't know how their future could have gone. Maybe that kid would've become a common criminal, but maybe he would've become something great. But even if he wouldn't, he still had family and loved ones who are never going to see him again because of some rash decision. Sad story. 

[TouKen4Life3g]

I don't like the fact that things like charges will lowered due to Brown actually took action.

[Sakamaki Izayoi]

Brown was 6'4" and almost 300lbs. he punched the Officer in the face causing his face to swell up and repotedly Brown tried to grab the officer Wilson's sidearm, at that point  Wilson would have been in reasonable fear of great bodily harm and possibly death making it Justifiable use of deadly force.

Even so you use taser.
He's not armed and doesnt had a knife, a cop going to be beat down with force when the cop has several other ways to deal with him is not justifiable in my opinion.

Edited by Dαrkrєrsŧ, 16 August 2014 - 11:48 AM.

[The Deity Zero]

Not trying to be rude, but if YOU were there, thinking that this guy was going to try to kill you, what would you do? Your adrenaline is pumping. Your gun is being grabbed by some common criminal. He might even kill you with it. It's a very intense situation. If you get into a situation like this, there isn't much time to react. Someone WAS going to die.

[sushi.]

If I had murdered someone, I would tell everyone it was self-defense. The reports saying this are all from the police. All the eye witnesses tell a completely different story. As far as I know, the police didn't even question one of them.
 
What the police says is also extremely unlikely, black people especially know that by showing restraint against a police officer you risk death. It's futile, and deadly. Everyone knows it's the worst thing to do in that situation. Even if Brown did grab the officer, he didn't need to shoot eight times to defend himself. Look at this.

Edit! New report says a nurse asked to perform CPR on Mike Brown after he was shot, but was denied. She couldn't even check on him. So he didn't die instantly. Ugh.
Edit 2: it is now confirmed that the confrontation had nothing to do with a robbery, it was used as an excuse later. Two boys just walked on the wrong side of the road or something.

Edited by sushi., 16 August 2014 - 10:11 PM.

[The Deity Zero]

Too many weird developments (which is not surprisingly EXACTLY like every other controversial media buzz case).

[Jake]

 

This is all unproven.

 

It is the only credible story of what happened, as the only witness is suspected to be an accomplice to the Strong Arm Robbery.

 

Even so you use taser.
He's not armed and doesnt had a knife, a cop going to be beat down with force when the cop has several other ways to deal with him is not justifiable in my opinion.

 

Let me say this again, Michael Brown was 6'4" and almost 300 lbs. someone that size is more than capable of inflicting Great Bodily Harm to you, and that is all you need to legally use deadly force, I'm not say weather actually using deadly force was the right or wrong choice, all I'm saying is that it was legal

 

If I had murdered someone, I would tell everyone it was self-defense. The reports saying this are all from the police. All the eye witnesses tell a completely different story. As far as I know, the police didn't even question one of them.
 
What the police says is also extremely unlikely, black people especially know that by showing restraint against a police officer you risk death. It's futile, and deadly. Everyone knows it's the worst thing to do in that situation. Even if Brown did grab the officer, he didn't need to shoot eight times to defend himself. Look at this.

Edit! New report says a nurse asked to perform CPR on Mike Brown after he was shot, but was denied. She couldn't even check on him. So he didn't die instantly. Ugh.
Edit 2: it is now confirmed that the confrontation had nothing to do with a robbery, it was used as an excuse later. Two boys just walked on the wrong side of the road or something.

 

The only known eye witness is suspected to be a accomplice to the strong-arm robbery, so unless he can clear his name and prove it wasn't him he has no credibility 

 

While I will admit that police can be a little excessive at times, some will charge you with resisting arrest if you do not to not immediate comply, but the ones who are like that, they are like that to everyone, not just minorities, (trust me there are a lot of videos of white people being treated like this by cops), as for shooting brown eight times, legally there might be a problem for the officer, I kinda depends on the Jury.

 

About Edit number 1: most likely the reason the nurse was not allowed to administer CPR was because there was no chance of reviving him, If you are shot in the heart it takes a while for the rest of your body to die, if you are shot in the brain stem you die instantly but it can take hours before your heart stops beating.

 

About Edit number 2: No it is confirmed that the reason why the officer approached Brown was not because of the robbery, even though the security camera footage is not that good quality, it is fairly obvious that it is Michael Brown, and while the reason the officer approached Brown was not because of the robbery, Brown didn't know that, if you have just committed a robbery and a police officer approaches you, wouldn't you assume that that is why he is approaching you?

[sushi.]

The problem isn't simply cops killing black and white people alike, it's that when police brutality happens to a white person, the cop gets punished. This happened last week. But is Eric Garner's murderer in prison yet? Is he even fired? I don't know, but that one was caught on tape so good luck defending that.

 

Also, black people are not a minority in Ferguson. Most people are black there.

[Sakamaki Izayoi]

Not trying to be rude, but if YOU were there, thinking that this guy was going to try to kill you, what would you do? Your adrenaline is pumping. Your gun is being grabbed by some common criminal. He might even kill you with it. It's a very intense situation. If you get into a situation like this, there isn't much time to react. Someone WAS going to die.

A police officer is a capable person trained on personal defense, shooting and other stuff to handle situations like that.
So he's not a common guy like us in a middle of a dangerous situation.
You cant swap me an untrained person who doesnt know how to use a gun neither immobilize and opponent with a trained police officer.

"the someome was going to die" was because he wasnt prepared to deal with it.

Edited by Dαrkrєrsŧ, 17 August 2014 - 12:39 AM.

[The Deity Zero]

A police officer is a capable person trained on personal defense, shooting and other stuff to handle situations like that.So he's not a common guy like us in a middle of a dangerous situation.You cant swap me an untrained person who doesnt know how to use a gun neither immobilize and opponent with a trained police officer."the someome was going to die" was because he wasnt prepared to deal with it.

True. I stand corrected. I guess I'm just different than you.

[Nate River]

It is the only credible story of what happened, as the only witness is suspected to be an accomplice to the Strong Arm Robbery.

I'm not sure about that, yet. Really curious about the autopsy, which should help corroborate some things (# of shots, distance, angle, from the front, rear, etc). I'm not sold on either version, personally. I still have too many questions.

Yes, Johnson has significant credibility issues. There is mention of other witnesses, but none of have been named yet. I'm not inclined to give a ton of credence to sources who we know nothing about. I don't believe even a number has been released. Most of the story we know that supports Brown has come from Johnson and what the PD released yesterday.
 
 

While I will admit that police can be a little excessive at times, some will charge you with resisting arrest if you do not to not immediate comply, but the ones who are like that, they are like that to everyone, not just minorities, (trust me there are a lot of videos of white people being treated like this by cops), as for shooting brown eight times, legally there might be a problem for the officer, I kinda depends on the Jury.

It's not just about the jury. That is true in ANY criminal cases. Any prosecutor who tells you a case is slam dunk is an idiot. I've seen juries do really strange things. I've heard that in cases where people fear for their life they will simply unload with their gun until the person drops. If that's true then 8 (or any other number) shots isn't necessarily dispositive. Getting shot once will not necessarily stop an individual, especially one that large. Things like distance, angle, location, etc. will matter. For example, if some come from the front and others from the rear then the officer is going to have a huge problem.

This is why the autopsy will be important. It should help determine whether Johnson's word is worth anything.
 

About Edit number 2: No it is confirmed that the reason why the officer approached Brown was not because of the robbery, even though the security camera footage is not that good quality, it is fairly obvious that it is Michael Brown, and while the reason the officer approached Brown was not because of the robbery, Brown didn't know that, if you have just committed a robbery and a police officer approaches you, wouldn't you assume that that is why he is approaching you?

Other things...did the officer learn of the Robbery during the stop. That is wasn't the reason for it, doesn't mean he didn't later figure it out. I don't believe the police chief answered that question. And yes, did Brown know that the officer had no idea? If the contact is right after the Robbery its not hard to believe he thought the officer knew and panicked. People do tend to make that assumption in the immediate aftermath of an offense or if they have warrants (common reasons why routine traffic stops turn into felony evading cases). Remember an episode about an old murder in California. The officers stopped the guy for speeding. The offender had just carjacked four people. The officers had no idea, but the defendant believed the stop was about his recent offense and killed both officers because of it.
 

The only known eye witness is suspected to be a accomplice to the strong-arm robbery, so unless he can clear his name and prove it wasn't him he has no credibility

Johnson has already admitted it was him. I wouldn't say no credibility, but he'll need something to get past the "of course he'd say that, he's Brown's buddy" argument. If Wilson gets charged, the State, having the burden of proof, will have to do much better than just his testimony. It's not necessarily insta-death to credibility, but it doesn't help.
 

Edit! New report says a nurse asked to perform CPR on Mike Brown after he was shot, but was denied. She couldn't even check on him. So he didn't die instantly. Ugh.

Not sure how the former proves the later. That she wanted to perform CPR doesn't mean he wasn't already dead. In fact, if they believe he is already deceased then the denial is rational as it is not uncommon for medical personal to inadvertently taint a crime scene. First responders priority isn't the preservation of evidence and they can royally screw up a murder scene if they aren't careful. This means what it says it means, she was denied the attempt to perform CPR. I haven't seen that report...does it say anything that would allow you to make that conclusion? I'm not being a smartass, I genuinely want to know what else it says.
 

Edit 2: it is now confirmed that the confrontation had nothing to do with a robbery, it was used as an excuse later. Two boys just walked on the wrong side of the road or something

It was the middle of the road.

If it were just an excuse, why confirm the stop wasn't based on the Robbery? Who else would have known that wasn't the case besides law enforcement? As Jake said, did Brown know that or did the officer learn about it later in the stop?
 

What the police says is also extremely unlikely, black people especially know that by showing restraint against a police officer you risk death. It's futile, and deadly. Everyone knows it's the worst thing to do in that situation. Even if Brown did grab the officer, he didn't need to shoot eight times to defend himself.

And yet people of all races do it all the time. Ask anyone who has ever worked any phase of criminal justice: defendants frequently turn minor stuff into major problems because they decide to run or fight the cop.

[KnS]

Really curious about the autopsy, which should help corroborate some things (# of shots, distance, angle, from the front, rear, etc). I'm not sold on either version, personally. I still have too many questions.

 

That's where I'm at, too.  I have a lot of questions as well, and hope we get some solid, objective information.

And yet people of all races do it all the time. Ask anyone who has ever worked any phase of criminal justice: defendants frequently turn minor stuff into major problems because they decide to run or fight the cop.

 

Well, that's the lizard brain for you.  It controls the Four Fs we all know well:  fleeing, feeding, fighting, and reproduction.  

 

Running from the police is a basic fight-or-flight response. Instinct prompts people to flee, and when that doesn't work they resort to fighting.