25 replies to this topic

[Sakura Blossoms]

Allot of these Animes released nowadays you can't watch with your family and would need to watch in private, even the safe ones with good plot often have scenes that might have regular Joes look at you funny and tell you to stay away from their children.

 

I wholeheartedly agree. A vast majority of the anime released nowadays seems to be mostly harem that borders on outright hentai

[Mole]

Haven't posted here a lot, but I swung by and this thread caught my eye so I figured I'd respond and play devil's advocate a bit. The first thing that came to my mind was a quote I've heard around, and I'm paraphrasing a bit to make it a bit more relevant to the pertaining subject, but it goes along the lines of "There are two constants throughout history. Things are always getting better, people always say they are getting worse." I butchered the quote a bit, but I believe it was Penn Jillette that said it.

Anime is in a state of regression in the U.S. from a business standpoint. This really isn't a matter in declining popularity or a lack of interest as a whole, others have pointed out where sales have been on the decline, convention attendance has been on the rise. Heck, Monster is getting a live action adaptation on HBO. This regression is mostly due to the current business model of anime. In the current age of technology, there are fan subs for shows the day they air in Japan that rival, or even exceed depending on your preferences and what scripts you are comparing, official subtitles. It's really just a simple matter of convenience. A lot of people who are into anime in the U.S. will have seen the show and won't be interested by the time the official distribution comes along with their dub a year later. Anime is already a niche market in the U.S. so this poses a problem as the majority of the target audience is not interested in your product as they potentially already own it in some capacity.

This effects the industry as a whole because it creates a divide in your audience. You have those who make up a good portion of anime's fan base who are watching them for free online and those who are your main consumers that don't buy as much as they aren't quite as in to anime as a whole as the former group. In a niche form of entertainment such as anime where most of your advertising relies on word of mouth, this disconnect is concerning. Aside from 1 or 2 wildly popular shows that come out each year that have people legitimately waiting for your dub, recent examples being Steins;Gate, Madoka and Sword Art Online, most shows you license will not be very successful. All companies like Funimation can do is pick up the most popular shows airing they can and hope they take off here. Shows like Cowboy Bebop, Big O and Trigun are very atypical in anime. These shows were not very well received in their initial run and were only as successful as they were thanks to western audiences. The Big O would never have had a second season if it weren't for it's run on Adult Swim.

It basically boils down to being a problem with the distribution structure. It's not even the fault of the licensing companies, but the Japanese distributors not adapting to the current market until recently. This is why we are currently seeing a rise in official streaming with Funimation and Crunchyroll. These services are aiming to answer the proposed problem by offering an alternative to anime audiences to watch shows that they are interested in that are currently airing in Japan, rival the price point of downloading, and still allow them to support the industry. Yes, the shift in focus plays a part in alienating some Americans, but I would say it ultimately is the fault of the distribution model. Shows like K-On and Lucky Star are popular, but they aren't the only shows that have been airing. There are alternatives.

It's not an issue of "Things were better back in my day", there have been tons of great shows that have come along since the 2000's that just weren't as popular as the other shows because of the aforementioned distribution model. To list some shows from just the last 3 years you have shows like Angel Beats!, Anohana, Durarara!!, Highschool of the Dead, Katanagatari, Madoka Magica, Mawaru Penguindrum, Mirai Nikki, Steins;Gate, Sword Art Online and The Tatami Galaxy. All of those shows, with the exception of HotD which was listed from it's sheer popularity stateside, have hardly any moments you could consider ecchi, if any at all, and were both fairly popular, some more so than others, and well received. Even the currently airing show Shingeki no Kyojin could arguably be listed with those others and it isn't even halfway over. It would be premature to do so, but having read the source material I'm fairly confident in the adaptation and it's current popularity is nothing to scoff at. Some of my favorite anime have aired in the last 3 years, some of which I didn't mention like Jinrui, and I grew up watching anime on Adult Swim and Toonami much like a lot of people.

I would also like to address the article posted earlier in the thread. That article is overwhelmingly biased and doesn't represent both sides fairly in the slightest. Why would you compare a show like Cowboy Bebop to K-On and believe that accurately represents both sides? Why not compare Cowboy Bebop to Baccano!, Durarara!! or Samurai Champloo? Why would you compare Clamp's character designs to Dragonball Z's? Clamp has been involved in anime since the 80's, it's not like their lanky, Jack Skellington designs is exclusive to the last 13 years. Why compare Sailor Moon and Cardcaptor Sakura to K-On? Why not compare Sailor Moon to Nanoha? Cardcaptor Sakura to Princess Tutu? I understand the article is her opinion and everything, and she's more than entitled to it, but it comes off as grossly misinformed.

I apologize for the long winded post, it ended up being much longer than I had initially anticipated I suppose.

[harry4e]

 

This is hands down the most incorrect thing I've read in this entire thread. First of all. For those who are unaware. The word moe means fetish in Japanese. It is NOT a genre. Moe means anything that someone would like. K-on is not moe, unless you like shows about young girls. Fairy Tail is moe if you like shounen. People on the internet contort this word. It's stupid. And as for being unable to watch with your family? Yeah, no kitten. Naruto, Bleach, and One Piece are for young males. Things like Madoka, Eden of the East...those things carry with it more adult themes, which is not for the main audience. Just because regular Joes like Call of Duty for its accessibility doesn't mean it's better than Bioshock Infinite, Skyrim, Fallout, Dishonored...so on and so forth.  

 

 

Yeah but what is popular is what sets the standard for how regular joes who do not understand the Genre will percieve the the content as whole, it's an unfortunate habit allot of us have. They see people playing games like CoD all the time and will think that Video Games is all about violence....They seem animes filled with young teenage girls who finds themselves in echi schenes then it's going to give the impression all Animes are like that, the examples you gave are actually what I'd consider acceptable to be watched with family, As they are Action or/and story driven, if regular Joes were introduced to Animes like this it would be fine.However if they saw To Love Ru, or the countless Imouto animes that have become popular these days then you will be in trouble.

 

As for my description of Moe, this is how most of us NON-Japanese understand the overly cute animes out there, it's what people do, everyone does it, even the Japanese, when I think kitten I think female dog, or a female who has a major attitude problem, yet in Japanese animes it's often used to describe a women who a bit loose and sleeps around. Yankee here in Britain is used to when talking about Ameican, but in Japan it's used to refer to a youth who is in a street gang, In he US I've seen it used to describe someone not from the same region as them. So really giving an accurate translation of a word was pointless when it's already been translated in the West to describe the overly cute anime charactors, and served best to make my argument. Also for your information I know what Moe means.

[rikakim94]

http://www.youtube.c...UMBx-yGzjq4_msQ

 

Well shonen manga is declining and moa is taking over no wonder why i don't really like the designs of the artwork of the manga/anime nowadays. 

 

A little while ago i got a email from my subscription of viz which asked:  TIGER & BUNNY Comics Anthologyfeatures a different artists drawing their own T&Bstories. Which other series would you most like to see adapted in a similar collection of guest-artist shorts?

 

Guess what won in that poll? High school Ouran. 

 

Im going to really miss the old school animes.  

[shadow_Uzumaki]

Haven't posted here a lot, but I swung by and this thread caught my eye so I figured I'd respond and play devil's advocate a bit. The first thing that came to my mind was a quote I've heard around, and I'm paraphrasing a bit to make it a bit more relevant to the pertaining subject, but it goes along the lines of "There are two constants throughout history. Things are always getting better, people always say they are getting worse." I butchered the quote a bit, but I believe it was Penn Jillette that said it.

Anime is in a state of regression in the U.S. from a business standpoint. This really isn't a matter in declining popularity or a lack of interest as a whole, others have pointed out where sales have been on the decline, convention attendance has been on the rise. Heck, Monster is getting a live action adaptation on HBO. This regression is mostly due to the current business model of anime. In the current age of technology, there are fan subs for shows the day they air in Japan that rival, or even exceed depending on your preferences and what scripts you are comparing, official subtitles. It's really just a simple matter of convenience. A lot of people who are into anime in the U.S. will have seen the show and won't be interested by the time the official distribution comes along with their dub a year later. Anime is already a niche market in the U.S. so this poses a problem as the majority of the target audience is not interested in your product as they potentially already own it in some capacity.

This effects the industry as a whole because it creates a divide in your audience. You have those who make up a good portion of anime's fan base who are watching them for free online and those who are your main consumers that don't buy as much as they aren't quite as in to anime as a whole as the former group. In a niche form of entertainment such as anime where most of your advertising relies on word of mouth, this disconnect is concerning. Aside from 1 or 2 wildly popular shows that come out each year that have people legitimately waiting for your dub, recent examples being Steins;Gate, Madoka and Sword Art Online, most shows you license will not be very successful. All companies like Funimation can do is pick up the most popular shows airing they can and hope they take off here. Shows like Cowboy Bebop, Big O and Trigun are very atypical in anime. These shows were not very well received in their initial run and were only as successful as they were thanks to western audiences. The Big O would never have had a second season if it weren't for it's run on Adult Swim.

It basically boils down to being a problem with the distribution structure. It's not even the fault of the licensing companies, but the Japanese distributors not adapting to the current market until recently. This is why we are currently seeing a rise in official streaming with Funimation and Crunchyroll. These services are aiming to answer the proposed problem by offering an alternative to anime audiences to watch shows that they are interested in that are currently airing in Japan, rival the price point of downloading, and still allow them to support the industry. Yes, the shift in focus plays a part in alienating some Americans, but I would say it ultimately is the fault of the distribution model. Shows like K-On and Lucky Star are popular, but they aren't the only shows that have been airing. There are alternatives.

It's not an issue of "Things were better back in my day", there have been tons of great shows that have come along since the 2000's that just weren't as popular as the other shows because of the aforementioned distribution model. To list some shows from just the last 3 years you have shows like Angel Beats!, Anohana, Durarara!!, Highschool of the Dead, Katanagatari, Madoka Magica, Mawaru Penguindrum, Mirai Nikki, Steins;Gate, Sword Art Online and The Tatami Galaxy. All of those shows, with the exception of HotD which was listed from it's sheer popularity stateside, have hardly any moments you could consider ecchi, if any at all, and were both fairly popular, some more so than others, and well received. Even the currently airing show Shingeki no Kyojin could arguably be listed with those others and it isn't even halfway over. It would be premature to do so, but having read the source material I'm fairly confident in the adaptation and it's current popularity is nothing to scoff at. Some of my favorite anime have aired in the last 3 years, some of which I didn't mention like Jinrui, and I grew up watching anime on Adult Swim and Toonami much like a lot of people.

I would also like to address the article posted earlier in the thread. That article is overwhelmingly biased and doesn't represent both sides fairly in the slightest. Why would you compare a show like Cowboy Bebop to K-On and believe that accurately represents both sides? Why not compare Cowboy Bebop to Baccano!, Durarara!! or Samurai Champloo? Why would you compare Clamp's character designs to Dragonball Z's? Clamp has been involved in anime since the 80's, it's not like their lanky, Jack Skellington designs is exclusive to the last 13 years. Why compare Sailor Moon and Cardcaptor Sakura to K-On? Why not compare Sailor Moon to Nanoha? Cardcaptor Sakura to Princess Tutu? I understand the article is her opinion and everything, and she's more than entitled to it, but it comes off as grossly misinformed.

I apologize for the long winded post, it ended up being much longer than I had initially anticipated I suppose.

 

That's actually an interesting viewpoint.  It seems the popular argument for "anime is regressing" seem to be due to "newer anime sucks," or "new anime sucks because ____" which is very subjective.  I've found newer anime/manga that doesn't suck, such as Daily Lives of High School Boys and Silver Spoon.  Of course, both of these lack the 'moe' quality (or whatever the hell it's called) that seemed to attract annoyance from other anime fans.  Although, I find the anime Nichijou to be freaking hilarious despite its cutesy "kawaii" character design.

 

However, you brought up the distribution aspect of manga/anime and I guess I'm inclined to agree.  Most of the older anime/manga did not have the luxury of the internet with fan subs that my/this current generation have.  In other words, people had to actually wait for the newest episode/chapter of Pokemon, Sailor Moon, Inuyasha, Mazinger Z, etc.  Or, for those who don't like waiting, like me, may be willing to spend money to collect volumes or full-season box sets when they are released.  

 

I guess this puts into perspective the effect that online translations have on the distribution of stuff like this.  Thanks for the post!

Edited by shadow_Uzumaki, 16 September 2013 - 01:11 AM.

[Jenskott]

Haven't posted here a lot, but I swung by and this thread caught my eye so I figured I'd respond and play devil's advocate a bit.

 

 

Hi. Allow me address several points of your post.

 

 "There are two constants throughout history. Things are always getting better, people always say they are getting worse." 

 

 

I am sorry, but that cite is preposterous. Everything -and I mean everything- in this life has ups and downs. Good and bad times. Ages of prosperity and decline.

 

That cite is very general, so I am not feel bad about using very general examples:

 

- Economics: There are periods of growing and periods of recession. According that cite, it does not matter if there are more people employless, the country is poorer... things ARE getting better. I guess the Crash of 1929 never happened, then.

 

- History: All countries have gotten periods of prosperity and decline. Nations and empires have risen and collapsed. According that cite, it is impossible because things are getting always better. I guess then people thought Roman Empire was in decline and it would eventually collapse if the state of matters went on were wrong.

 

- Arts: All academics teach Renaissance after its peak went through a decadence period known as Mannerism until the Baroque style replaced it. If things were always getting better, Renaissance art style would have not been replaced. Also, all academics agree Spanish Literature's Golden Age were XVI-XVII centuries. Even though there great masterpieces written in Spanish idiom before and after that age, that was the peak of Spanish Literature. Hence, things got worse.

 

- Videogames: Back in the early eighties, people were complained video games were getting worse and worse and nobody would buy them at that rate. I guess according that cite they were only a bunch of whiners and the Videogame Crash of 1983 never happened.

 

- Animation - The sixties and seventies are called the Dark Age of the Animation in the West. Why? Because American cartoons made in that period WERE worse than the ones made in the earlier age (which is called the Golden Age), and quality only rose again in the eighties.

 

I repeat: that cite is ridiculous. Things are not always getting better. Things go through a cycle: rise, peak, decline (sometimes freefall), recovery and rise again (usually; sometimes the devline is so terrible recovery is not possible. How many empires and civilizations have risen again after falling? Mongolia has not been a powerful country in eight centuries). Everything has ups and downs. And regarding art, entertainment... it is true all ages have produced good and bad stuff, and there are always more bad or average stuff than good stuff... but it is also true that the number of good, high-quality stuff is greater in some ages than in others.

 

What age is better and which worse may be subjective, but I think this statement is pretty accurate and objective. Or so I would like thinking.

 

And this is one of the problems I have with your post. Much of it reads like "Everything is going well, and if you think otherwise it is because nostalgia". Even if you do not intend sounding like that, that was the feeling I got, unfortunately, and your cite and several of your comments did not help matters. And I am awfully sorry, but when I believe someone is trying to pull the "nostalgia" card, that person's arguments lose any validity to me. Why? Because the nostalgia argument is a strawman argument. I have lost count of how many times I have read someone explaining his/her position in the most rational way possible, offering valid and understandable arguments -and even verifiable data!-, only for the other side ignoring them altogether and claiming "No, you are only blinded by nostalgia. There are not fighting against nostalgia".

 

You raise a good point of distribution is a trouble, but... It sounds like if you are stating that is the main trouble or the sole root of it. I am sorry, but mainly or exclusively blaming poor channels of distribution seems a dodge to me. A way to try and dodge uncomfortable questions such like "What if our comic-books are selling less because we are delivering an inferior product? What if we are not so talented like we would like to believe? And maybe we should make a bigger effort to improve our work and delivering good product people really wants?"

 

You have admited sales are in decline. Your argument seems being "Sales are in decline because people likes the product but they does not know it exists or they can have it for free". Using the Occam's Razor a simplest explanation, with less assumptions required, would be "Sales are in decline because people does not like the product."

 

After all, if anime is more popular than ever and there are more anime fans than never, sales should be RISING. The distribution problem sounds like an excuse. If people deems something is good enough, they buy it. And they will find a way to buy it.There are tons of ways to find stuff you want.

 

Let me tell you a story. Former Marvel EIC Jim Shooter told in his blog the next story:

 

http://www.jimshoote...about-mass.html

 

People in and around the comic book industry, and especially creators who aren’t knowledgeable about the business side, often blame poor sales on bad distribution. 

 

I attended a Friends of Lulu meeting some years back at which the main thing being discussed—as is often the case—was the poor and declining sales of comic books, in that instance, especially those by, for or about women. Every one of the several dozen people in that room agreed that the problem was distribution. Except me.

 

People said the usual: If only the books got “out there…!” Why can’t there be a comic book rack in every Starbuck’s? The books should be at checkout counters everywhere! Why aren’t there more bookstores selling comics? And why are they so badly displayed in the ones that do sell them? Toys R Us!  McDonald’s! Etc.

 

As the one and only person in the room who knew much about distribution and had experience dealing with all manner of channels of distribution, I finally spoke up. I started to talk about the difficulties.

[...]

I never got started on Starbuck’s, bookstores, McDonald’s, etc….

 

The Friends of Lulu more or less shouted me down. Then, people who didn’t have a clue went back to expounding about the vast numbers of new readers that could be had if only the publishers weren’t too stupid to pursue their wonderful ideas about getting the books “out there.” They preferred their fantasies. They had no interest in reality. Didn’t want to hear it.

 

So, I skipped ahead to the part they really didn’t want to hear. To interest vast numbers of new readers, comics would have to be a lot more accessible and a lot more entertaining—in a word, better.

 

Shouted down again. They were all very sure that the comics they made, their favorites and almost all comics were plenty good enough. Millions of people would love them, if only they got out there! It was a distribution problem, plain and simple.

 

That sort of thing happened a lot. If a bunch of creators and/or other interested parties got together anywhere and the subject of poor sales came up, bet your pristine mint Amazing Fantasy #15 the consensus would be that bad distribution was to blame.

 

I hate to break it to some Friends of Lulu and many other comic book creators and others, but comics with impenetrable, convoluted, incoherent, badly written, banal or outright dumb stories and/or indecipherable or just plain bad art—sadly, that means most of them—are not going to sell millions of copies.

 

Distribution could be better, of course. Better distribution might do some good. But, comic books aren’t going to succeed in the big, wide world as long as they’re not good enough.

 

Maybe you think he was only being nostalgic and thinking things "were better in his day". Well, sales data tells things WERE better in his day. Back when he became EIC, Marvel virtually monopolized the American comic-book market. Back then, a book sold "only" 100,000 monthly copies was canceled due to low sales. Nowadays a book sells 90,000 montly copies gets hailed like a resounding success.

 

So, no. I agree distribution can be part of the trouble, but I do not agree it is THE trouble or most of it.

 

It's not an issue of "Things were better back in my day", there have been tons of great shows that have come along since the 2000's that just weren't as popular as the other shows because of the aforementioned distribution model.

 

 

Great to YOU and other people already are anime fans. Not to the general population, apparently.

 

I like mecha shows. Like, I like A LOT. Mainly mecha shows made in the seventies and eighties. But they are not popular. Is it why the distribuition channels? No, it is because only a minority finds them appealing. Every so often, a mecha show becomes popular (Mazinger-Z, Voltron, Voltes-V, Evangelion...). But it seldom happens because few people likes stories with giant robots. That is the reality, and I accept it instead of making excuses or looking the other way (not telling that that is what you are doing).

 

And I disagree. Those great shows have tons of advantages shows of the yesteryear had not. Old shows had no a world wide web to be known, watched, spread and discussed. Old shows were not instantly available for literally everyone thanks internet. Old shows were not fansubbed and uploaded online as soon as the weekly chapter was aired. Old shows had no online boards where fans argued about them the whole time and non-fans could enter and ask what the show was about. Old shows were not edited in dvd and had not e-bay to be sold out to whoever wanted them but had missed them. Old shows had fewer ways to make their existence known to everybody, less channels of distribution, and had to struggle with a public was unaware to and indifferent to what anime was.

 

Newer, "great" shows SHOULD be more popular that the older shows. And they SHOULD sell better. They have it way easier.

 

Moreover, back when I was child and a teen, few people knew what anime was, or they thought it was kiddie stuff. Nowadays everybody knows what is anime is... and they think it is trite, boring, cliche crap filled with fanservice. This is not nostalgia talking. This is what I find everyday.

 

I would also like to address the article posted earlier in the thread. That article is overwhelmingly biased and doesn't represent both sides fairly in the slightest. 

 

 

I agree with this. That article was very biased and somewhat unfair, even though it tried to raise several good points. However... Please, do not get offended, but that is how I would describe your post.

 

I apologize for the long winded post, it ended up being much longer than I had initially anticipated I suppose.

 

 

Please, do not get apologize about wanting to make an articulate post with elaborate arguments (even if I kind of disagree). It is nice finding that online. :)

 

the examples you gave are actually what I'd consider acceptable to be watched with family, As they are Action or/and story driven, if regular Joes were introduced to Animes like this it would be fine.However if they saw To Love Ru, or the countless Imouto animes that have become popular these days then you will be in trouble.

 

 

Same thing here. I watched Saint Seiya and Ranma One Half with my big sister back in the day. I would watch Dragon Ball or Naruto with my nephew. I would not mind watching Doraemon or a Miyazaki film with my family. I would not ever think of watching Puella Magicka Madoka or Mirai Nikki with my family. And I can promise you they would NOT think that is even slightly "adult" or "mature".

 

And, honestly... if I liked some certain newer anime shows I would never admit it publically.

 

Another trouble has been mentioned and I have discussed with a friend of mine is often characters are no longer relatable. You watched an old show and even though it was made in another country and it clearly belonged to another culture, often the characters felt like people you could meet or even know.

 

Kouji Kabuto from Mazinger-Z was a normal, reckless, inmature teenager had normal hobbies (bikes), looked after his little brother, went to school, had friends and a kind of girlfriend... the only unusual thing about him was the giant robot bit. Madoka Ayukawa from Kimagure Orange Road was a normal, average teen girl you could meet walking down the street. Ash Ketchum from Pokemon was a hot-headed kid dreamt with leave his home to explore the country and find a bunch of weird animals. True, he sought elemental-powered animals to lock them in spheres and fighting tournaments with them, but the rest of it is completely normal. There are many kids like him in real life. In fact, Satoshi Tajiri, the franchise's creator, created Pokemon based on his chilhood experiences. He liked exploring around, finding and cataloging anmals when he was a kid.

 

Nowadays... Characters are not very relatable.

 

I talked to a friend of mine about Mirai Nikki. I did not tell him whether it was good or bad -I have no opinion about it-, I just provided him with a link to the wikipedia. He... was not impressed with the plot or the characters. Why is that important? Because it reinforces my point. Fewer shows made nowadays have majority appeal or are capable to make new fans.

 

It is ironical, because before the nineties, most manga and anime creators made series exclusively tailored to the Japanese and Eastern Asian markets. Nowadays, anime-makers try to make shows with a broader appeal, but they are less popular. Several mangakas such like Go Nagai have commented about it.