85 replies to this topic

[ciardha]

And as for whether Sai was speaking in present tense or past tense I'd say past till present. I mean like "since". So she still loves/likes him. As for the parts where he used "because she likes him...." that was present tense.

Remember though, Sai said at the start of his conversation that Sakura had moved on from Sasuke and fallen in love with Naruto. (sounds like a more accurate translation from the words used would render the part about her feelings for Naruto as "fallen deeply in love with" not just "fallen in love with", which makes sense, since Sai is trying to convey [to Naruto] that Sakura's feelings for Naruto are as deeply romantic as Naruto for Sakura

Ah, thanks! I think see clearly now what renders this chapter a difficult translation now!

Sai talks about Sakura's romantic love for Sasuke in the past tense at the start of the chapter, then you have Naruto using Sakura having feelings about Sasuke in the present tense, but he doesn't, as you pointed out, actually say romantic love when he refers her feelings about Sasuke.

Sai would have inferred from that Naruto was talking about caring kind of love, instead of of romantic love (especially since Sai has witnessed how intensely and readily compassionate Sakura can be to others- a point used by Zetsu against Sakura just last chapter) What Sai witnessed when they encountered Sasuke for the first time in part 2, and other times in part 2, would have also lead him to see clearly her feelings had moved on to compassionate love, away from her part 1 romantic crush. And on the other hand what he witnessed of her interactions with Naruto would have lead him to see clearly her feelings for Naruto is romantic love: yes, the tsundere stuff but also he saw her flirty behavior with Naruto too- the playful flirty nickname scene in 311 and the way she offered to feed Naruto in 343, and lastly what he commented on even before Yamato did about her feelings about Naruto- about how she could be tender toward Naruto in the way a woman in love is with the man she romantically loves... Which is a direct reminder to what Shikaku told Shikamaru in part 1 about how even the strongest woman is with the man they love...

Edited by ciardha, 14 October 2011 - 06:58 AM.

[Codus N]

Okie

Kushina: Don't be picky....eat a lot...and become big!
Bath... everyday...and make yourself warm and....don't stay up late....and sleep a lot!!
And then...make friends...it doesn't have to be many...! Friends you can really trust...having only a few is enough!

And...I was bad at studying but...do your studies and ninjutsu...!
But everybody has their prosperity and weakness....so...even if...you can't do well....you don't have to get disappointed...
At the academy....respect your teachers and seniors....!

Ah....and this is important....About the three vices of Shinobi....especially beware of lending and borrowing of money....
Remember to save your money you get on missions....
And alcohol is after 20....if you drink too much it's unhealthy....so keep it low....
And the problem with the three vices is...."woman".....
I'm a woman so I don't really know....but anyways....in this world there are only men and women....So you'll eventually be interested in woman....but don't be hooked to a weird one....! Find somebody like your...mother....!

Here's boyakist's version from MH if you want to compare.

"and the problematic vice... women. I'm a girl myself, so i don't really know... but the world only has males and females... you'll probably find an interest a girl, so don't get reeled in by a strange girl... find a girl like me, your mother."
Kushina does not mention Naruto 'picking' a girl... but rather being picked BY a weird girl.

Pretty much the same, but your wording makes it seem a whole lot different from hers. In yours, it's kinda biased to a certain extent. So I'd advise you to pick your words carefully next time if you want to give a neutral translation.

ciardha, you're not making any sense

[HenryFlitzroy]

Here's boyakist's version from MH if you want to compare.



Pretty much the same, but your wording makes it seem a whole lot different from hers. In yours, it's kinda biased to a certain extent. So I'd advise you to pick your words carefully next time if you want to give a neutral translation.

ciardha, you're not making any sense

Have you considered that HIS translation might be ever so slightly biased ? (it's still pretty much the same thing BTW, it's still FIND a girl llike..)

And yeah, i don't really get what you are trying to say either, Ciardha.

Cheers for NaruNaru btw.

[Codus N]

Well, the goal of this thread is to find unbiased translation, remember?? I'm just telling him to try harder at making his translations sounds neutral pairing wise.

[tricksie]

Well, the goal of this thread is to find unbiased translation, remember?? I'm just telling him to try harder at making his translations sounds neutral pairing wise.

No offense, but I don't think we should tell him/her anything other than 'thank you.' For me, I'm going to take the word of someone kind enough to come here, answer questions and engage in discussion over the translations...rather than something found, sight unseen, on the interwebs. I understand your point about approaching this without bias, but it really isn't an issue here, as this has to do with verb choice around Kushina's statement: whether "falling for" or "reeled in by" the sentiment is the same. With any translation, you have to choose the best sentiment for the situation, and I think that's what narunarunaru has done. Many, many thanks for sharing your time and expertise in translating these posts!

[Codus N]

I'm sorry if I come off as unappreciative but I would like to remind him that if he truly wants bring out neutral translations, he should be more careful when wording his thoughts. Not that I'm being ungrateful, but it's just that..... I REALLY, REALLY want to see translations that don't support any pairing whatsoever.

Of course, technically it's the grammar stuff here that's the problem but I just thought that if he wants to be a great translator, neutrality would make translations even more perfect as it is. I'm just trying to give him advice, that's all.

Edited by Codus N, 14 October 2011 - 02:23 PM.

[Super Boom]

I'm sorry if I come off as unappreciative but I would like to remind him that if he truly wants bring out neutral translations, he should be more careful when wording his thoughts. Not that I'm being ungrateful, but it's just that..... I REALLY, REALLY want to see translations that don't support any pairing whatsoever.

I agree that I'd rather see an unbiased translation, but if the purest translation supports a certain pairing, then how else can he really translate it? If Kishimoto really does prefer a certain pairing over another, then isn't a neutral translation impossible? Or better said, if the manga is leaning towards Naru/Saku, isn't a translation leaning towards N/S, in a way, an unbiased translation? Because, from what I've seen, Kishi was pretty blatant with whole Kushina/Sakura similarity.

But that's assuming Kishi does prefer N/S over the other pairings. In any case, I guess, personally, I'd prefer an accurate translation that supports a certain pairing, ours or otherwise, than an intentional mistranslation done for the sake of neutrality. But maybe I'm misinterpreting what you and tricksie are discussing on this thread.

[merryGOflava]

....im learning japanese....but im not sure if im good enough to be a translator...

i can read hiragana, and katakana of course the kanji might kill me though..XD

if there wasnt any kanji i would have any problems

[tricksie]

I agree that I'd rather see an unbiased translation, but if the purest translation supports a certain pairing, then how else can he really translate it? If Kishimoto really does prefer a certain pairing over another, then isn't a neutral translation impossible? Or better said, if the manga is leaning towards Naru/Saku, isn't a translation leaning towards N/S, in a way, an unbiased translation? Because, from what I've seen, Kishi was pretty blatant with whole Kushina/Sakura similarity.

But that's assuming Kishi does prefer N/S over the other pairings. In any case, I guess, personally, I'd prefer an accurate translation that supports a certain pairing, ours or otherwise, than an intentional mistranslation done for the sake of neutrality. But maybe I'm misinterpreting what you and tricksie are discussing on this thread.

Right. There really is no such thing as an "unbiased" translation here. Instead, the focus is trying to pinpoint exactly what Kishimoto is trying to express. We already have unbiased translations...and that would be in the official translated manga. But we have to wait until those come out. So it really is nice of narunarunaru to offer to translate, and I certainly don't want to step on toes by criticising where it's not due.

Because, seriously, if there were an issue of bias in this little excerpt it would be about the word "weird" instead of the subtle intent of Kushina's verb choice. "Weird" is quite harsh, and across-the-board accepted as what Kishimoto intended. Bias here would be twisting "weird" into "unusual" or "unique." But narunarunaru is not twisting words, in fact h/she is amending the translation in response to posts where a better-fitting term is used.

I'm not jumping on Codus, I just don't want to see a new member who is so kind as to offer assistance be turned off by a broadly sweeping criticism, that really speaks more to the other poorly translated and intentionally misleading texts out there, rather than to narunarunaru's best efforts.

I don't think there will ever be an 'unbiased' translation. The manga is biased toward Naru/Saku, and the dialogue is either vague or stacked toward that pairing. But it's nice to know the original wording with it's intended use, which I think is what Codus is getting at, so we can form our own opinions without looking through Hinata-colored glasses!

Edited by tricksie, 14 October 2011 - 03:45 PM.

[Codus N]

I agree that I'd rather see an unbiased translation, but if the purest translation supports a certain pairing, then how else can he really translate it? If Kishimoto really does prefer a certain pairing over another, then isn't a neutral translation impossible? Or better said, if the manga is leaning towards Naru/Saku, isn't a translation leaning towards N/S, in a way, an unbiased translation? Because, from what I've seen, Kishi was pretty blatant with whole Kushina/Sakura similarity.

But that's assuming Kishi does prefer N/S over the other pairings. In any case, I guess, personally, I'd prefer an accurate translation that supports a certain pairing, ours or otherwise, than an intentional mistranslation done for the sake of neutrality. But maybe I'm misinterpreting what you and tricksie are discussing on this thread.

You have a point. But if it can be "neutralized" why not?? take a look at boyakist's version. Hers sounds a bit more neutral, but it doesn't mess up the context in any way. I'm just saying that if he wants to achieve neutrality, he should try searching for a better alternative to the words that first popped up in his mind. A better way to put it is, him checking over his translations a couple times to see if it's neutral enough without messing up the context in any way. That's all.

EDIT: tricksie you replied before I did. Anyways, hopefully this statement above clears everything up.

Edited by Codus N, 14 October 2011 - 04:25 PM.

[merryGOflava]

You have a point. But if it can be "neutralized" why not?? take a look at boyakist's version. Hers sounds a bit more neutral, but it doesn't mess up the context in any way. I'm just saying that if he wants to achieve neutrality, he should try searching for a better alternative to the words that first popped up in his mind. A better way to put it is, him checking over his translations a couple times to see if it's neutral enough without messing up the context in any way. That's all.

i see. but just appreciate this.....who knows narunarunaru might turn around and say " meh...i dont feel like doing it anymore"

so lets just be grateful for how hard shes trying for us. she doesnt need to translate..but she is :3

if you want it to have the best words used. you might have to wait for Viz to translate it and actually put it on the book shelves.

[Codus N]

Of course. I'm already quite grateful for what she/he's doing, I'm just trying to give some advice, that's all.

[ramenanmitsu]

Thanks for your thanks guys

@Ciardha
Do you mind to explain what you mean??

@Codus N
Well, the part on "hooked" was actually kinda fault of my lacking english vocabulary as I explained to Insurrection in the last page. I couldn't think of the term so I used the dictionary, to find the direct translation of "ひっかかる(hikkakaru)" and it was written "hooked" so I just used it. I should have asked for suggestions about this word in the first place. As Insurrection suggested "fall" was a better term:P

I'm really bad at explaining but what I wanted to explain is similar as in "being caught by a spider web." It's not a matter of picking or being picked.

And actually, this is really my fault for doing translation when my english is not perfect, but this is my first time to encounter the term "get reeled by". So, it would really be helpful if you could tell me how my translation has a whole lot different meaning to hers. It would add to my vocabulary as well

Edited by narunarunaru, 15 October 2011 - 02:48 AM.

[Onionhead Attacks]

Okie

Kushina: Don't be picky....eat a lot...and become big!
Bath... everyday...and make yourself warm and....don't stay up late....and sleep a lot!!
And then...make friends...it doesn't have to be many...! Friends you can really trust...having only a few is enough!

And...I was bad at studying but...do your studies and ninjutsu...!
But everybody has their prosperity and weakness....so...even if...you can't do well....you don't have to get disappointed...
At the academy....respect your teachers and seniors....!

Ah....and this is important....About the three vices of Shinobi....especially beware of lending and borrowing of money....
Remember to save your money you get on missions....
And alcohol is after 20....if you drink too much it's unhealthy....so keep it low....
And the problem with the three vices is...."woman".....
I'm a woman so I don't really know....but anyways....in this world there are only men and women....So you'll eventually be interested in woman....but don't be hooked to a weird one....! Find somebody like your...mother....!

Oh yeah "fall" is the better term. I couldn't think of the term in English so I used "hooked" but yeah, now to think about it "fall" is a better term. And yes it actually says weird. 変な(henna) means weird.

So it would be "Don't fall for a weird one."

In your translation, it seems to indicate that Naruto is choosing who he likes. Grammatically speaking, the subject is not explicitly written, but it's "you", so your translation would read "(You) don't fall for a weird one."

And actually, this is really my fault for doing translation when my english is not perfect, but this is my first time to encounter the term "get reeled by". So, it would really be helpful if you could tell me how my translation has a whole lot different meaning to hers. It would add to my vocabulary as well

However, "get reeled in by" seems to suggest that the "weird one" was the one doing the choosing and influencing Naruto's choice rather than him making an unbiased choice by himself. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that the phrase was written passively so if you were to re-write it, the phrase should come out as "(Weird one) reels in (You)." Grammatically speaking, "Weird One" would be the direct object and "You" would be the indirect object, which the verb, reels in, is acting on. When written this way, you can see the change in subjects. Your translation suggests that Naruto does the choosing, but boyakist's translation suggests that the Weird One does the choosing.

Personally when you want to compare the two meanings which is the same to me, I'd substitute "fall for" and "reeled in by" with "attracted to". So it'll be "don't be attracted to a weird one" and "don't let a weird one attract you". Both sentences mean "stay away from a weird one" even though it's written differently. Also, I don't think the point of the translation was for a debate on who does the choosing, but rather the point of the Kushina's words was for Naruto to stay away from and to not become attracted to a weird girl.

Unrelated to above, I understand where people are coming from for the neutral translation argument; but to me, neutral means direct translation of what is written and no assumptions to unfinished sentences with missing verbs or nouns, although translations may come out broken and make no sense. As long as the person is translating exactly as written without looking for better phrases that has a similar but slightly stronger meaning than the original (that could lead to misunderstandings) I'm content. Then again, I can't say much since I'm not technically going around picking apart each line and word to find the exact meaning and over analyzing something that could be just what is written and nothing more and nothing less, especially since I'm not familiar with Japanese grammar and sentence structure.

[Codus N]

Thanks for your thanks guys

@Ciardha
Do you mind to explain what you mean??

@Codus N
Well, the part on "hooked" was actually kinda fault of my lacking english vocabulary as I explained to Insurrection in the last page. I couldn't think of the term so I used the dictionary, to find the direct translation of "ひっかかる(hikkakaru)" and it was written "hooked" so I just used it. I should have asked for suggestions about this word in the first place. As Insurrection suggested "fall" was a better term:P

I'm really bad at explaining but what I wanted to explain is similar as in "being caught by a spider web." It's not a matter of picking or being picked.

And actually, this is really my fault for doing translation when my english is not perfect, but this is my first time to encounter the term "get reeled by". So, it would really be helpful if you could tell me how my translation has a whole lot different meaning to hers. It would add to my vocabulary as well

Ah, I see. It's okay, it's my fault too for being rather insensitive. But keep up the good work!! and if you want to find alternatives to words that may come off as biased, and change it to a neutral-sounding tone, maybe you should ask around. I think naruto-z should work with you on this. After all, he is sort of responsible for this thread . Or if anyone wants to, does anybody here want to help narunaru with checking and editing his translations??.

Your partner/assistant would basically be someone you look to for helping your vocabulary and choice of words for your translations. Basically, he/she'd be someone to help you find alternatives to words you don't feel right or not neutral-sounding enough.

PS: Would you please confirm whether the real Madara mentioned Nagato after he came out of the coffin this chapter??

EDIT: Onion, that's pretty much what I was saying. The choice of words can very well affect the outcome of the translation. Like the comparison with boyakist's version, you can see how just a few words can totally give a different meaning. Which is why I'm advising him to be more careful so that he won't give off a totally different meaning, even though contextually is almost the same.

Oh yeah, I almost forgot. Would everyone please go to the Council Hall subforum?? I'd like everyone to vote on my thread if possible. Here:

Which do you prefer??

Edited by Codus N, 15 October 2011 - 06:39 AM.

[ramenanmitsu]

In your translation, it seems to indicate that Naruto is choosing who he likes. Grammatically speaking, the subject is not explicitly written, but it's "you", so your translation would read "(You) don't fall for a weird one."



However, "get reeled in by" seems to suggest that the "weird one" was the one doing the choosing and influencing Naruto's choice rather than him making an unbiased choice by himself. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that the phrase was written passively so if you were to re-write it, the phrase should come out as "(Weird one) reels in (You)." Grammatically speaking, "Weird One" would be the direct object and "You" would be the indirect object, which the verb, reels in, is acting on. When written this way, you can see the change in subjects. Your translation suggests that Naruto does the choosing, but boyakist's translation suggests that the Weird One does the choosing.

Personally when you want to compare the two meanings which is the same to me, I'd substitute "fall for" and "reeled in by" with "attracted to". So it'll be "don't be attracted to a weird one" and "don't let a weird one attract you". Both sentences mean "stay away from a weird one" even though it's written differently. Also, I don't think the point of the translation was for a debate on who does the choosing, but rather the point of the Kushina's words was for Naruto to stay away from and to not become attracted to a weird girl.

Unrelated to above, I understand where people are coming from for the neutral translation argument; but to me, neutral means direct translation of what is written and no assumptions to unfinished sentences with missing verbs or nouns, although translations may come out broken and make no sense. As long as the person is translating exactly as written without looking for better phrases that has a similar but slightly stronger meaning than the original (that could lead to misunderstandings) I'm content. Then again, I can't say much since I'm not technically going around picking apart each line and word to find the exact meaning and over analyzing something that could be just what is written and nothing more and nothing less, especially since I'm not familiar with Japanese grammar and sentence structure.

I'm confused here I want to ask for future preferences. Is "fall" the similar to a way as "choose"? I thought "fall" was more unconscious, whereas "choose" is conscious. I think of fall as more like something uncontrollable. Similar to the word "caught" in a sense. For example, you can't control whether your clothes will be caught on a branch. The best you can do is be careful to not get caught. And in this case the subject of this sentence is Naruto, and if the term is uncontrollable wouldn't it not be a matter of picking or being picked? He can't really control who he's going to "引っかかる(hikkakaru)" to. But if it's unconscious will it automatically mean being picked? If there is somebody caught, there is somebody who caught that person. Isn't the struggle on both sides equal? In this case if Naruto was"引っかかった(hikkakatta)" which means at the same time there is somebody who "引っかけた(hikkaketta)". And to be precise the manga said it in a former way. Sorry for my usage of Japanese but this is the word in question and since I'm not sure anymore whether the term I used was correct, I decided to use the raw version.

I'm not a pro-translator so I didn't notice it would be a big deal whether the "引っかかる(hikkakaru)" has a stronger emphasis on choosing or being choosed. And in all honesty, I think the term "引っかかる" itself is not about picking or being picked. I used the direct word "hooked" coming out from the dictionary to be safe without finding a term to fit the context of the situation. If there is anyone who is learning Japanese and is good in English could give their opinions it'd be best!

Ah, I see. It's okay, it's my fault too for being rather insensitive. But keep up the good work!! and if you want to find alternatives to words that may come off as biased, and change it to a neutral-sounding tone, maybe you should ask around. I think naruto-z should work with you on this. After all, he is sort of responsible for this thread . Or if anyone wants to, does anybody here want to help narunaru with checking and editing his translations??.

Your partner/assistant would basically be someone you look to for helping your vocabulary and choice of words for your translations. Basically, he/she'd be someone to help you find alternatives to words you don't feel right or not neutral-sounding enough.

PS: Would you please confirm whether the real Madara mentioned Nagato after he came out of the coffin this chapter??

naruto-z disappeared after making this thread I must get him out of his hiding!

And yeah Madara mentioned Nagato. Nagato is written, "長門" and that is in the raw

Edited by narunarunaru, 15 October 2011 - 06:50 AM.

[Onionhead Attacks]

I'm confused here I want to ask for future preferences. Is "fall" the similar to a way as "choose"? I thought "fall" was more unconscious, whereas "choose" is conscious. I think of fall as more like something uncontrollable. Similar to the word "caught" in a sense. For example, you can't control whether your clothes will be caught on a branch. The best you can do is be careful to not get caught. And in this case the subject of this sentence is Naruto, and if the term is uncontrollable wouldn't it not be a matter of picking or being picked? He can't really control who he's going to "引っかかる(hikkakaru)" to. But if it's unconscious will it automatically mean being picked? If there is somebody caught, there is somebody who caught that person. Isn't the struggle on both sides equal? In this case if Naruto was"引っかかった(hikkakatta)" which means at the same time there is somebody who "引っかけた(hikkaketta)". And to be precise the manga said it in a former way. Sorry for my usage of Japanese but this is the word in question and since I'm not sure anymore whether the term I used was correct, I decided to use the raw version.

I'm not a pro-translator so I didn't notice it would be a big deal whether the "引っかかる(hikkakaru)" has a stronger emphasis on choosing or being choosed. And in all honesty, I think the term "引っかかる" itself is not about picking or being picked. I used the direct word "hooked" coming out from the dictionary to be safe without finding a term to fit the context of the situation. If there is anyone who is learning Japanese and is good in English could give their opinions it'd be best!

Okay, I know that you got confused by the explanation with "choose" and "fall", which is why I preferred substituting the phrases with "attracted to" even though it may not be completely accurate. All this consciousness and unconsciousness got me thinking in overdrive and confused as well! However! Since you mentioned not being able to find a better translation other than "fall" or "hooked" for "hikkakaru" I decided to see if there's something different in a different dictionary. This is what I found, so would you mind checking if this sounds about right? If it is, I believe the word "ensnare" can be used.

[Insurrection]

I'm confused here I want to ask for future preferences. Is "fall" the similar to a way as "choose"? I thought "fall" was more unconscious, whereas "choose" is conscious. I think of fall as more like something uncontrollable. Similar to the word "caught" in a sense. For example, you can't control whether your clothes will be caught on a branch. The best you can do is be careful to not get caught. And in this case the subject of this sentence is Naruto, and if the term is uncontrollable wouldn't it not be a matter of picking or being picked? He can't really control who he's going to "引っかかる(hikkakaru)" to. But if it's unconscious will it automatically mean being picked? If there is somebody caught, there is somebody who caught that person. Isn't the struggle on both sides equal? In this case if Naruto was"引っかかった(hikkakatta)" which means at the same time there is somebody who "引っかけた(hikkaketta)". And to be precise the manga said it in a former way. Sorry for my usage of Japanese but this is the word in question and since I'm not sure anymore whether the term I used was correct, I decided to use the raw version.

I'm not a pro-translator so I didn't notice it would be a big deal whether the "引っかかる(hikkakaru)" has a stronger emphasis on choosing or being choosed. And in all honesty, I think the term "引っかかる" itself is not about picking or being picked. I used the direct word "hooked" coming out from the dictionary to be safe without finding a term to fit the context of the situation. If there is anyone who is learning Japanese and is good in English could give their opinions it'd be best!


naruto-z disappeared after making this thread I must get him out of his hiding!

And yeah Madara mentioned Nagato. Nagato is written, "長門" and that is in the raw

Apparently 引っかかる according to google means "trapped". http://translate.goo...

I'm just a little paranoid, something seems, different. Since this recent chapter I wanted to double check Kushina.

if you want it to have the best words used. you might have to wait for Viz to translate it and actually put it on the book shelves.

you see that's why I asked the question, because we have 3 translations I know of. And that one (Viz) is the most radical of the three.

Edited by Insurrection, 15 October 2011 - 07:15 AM.

[Codus N]

Oh boy, what have I gotten ourselves into?? now narunaru is all confused as well .

ah, so Nagato was indeed mentioned. did it say that the real Madara indeed waited/expected himself to be revived?? could you please translate the part about Nagato??

http://mangastream.c...ruto/94539395/3

Just the first panel, that's all...

[ramenanmitsu]

Okay, I know that you got confused by the explanation with "choose" and "fall", which is why I preferred substituting the phrases with "attracted to" even though it may not be completely accurate. All this consciousness and unconsciousness got me thinking in overdrive and confused as well! However! Since you mentioned not being able to find a better translation other than "fall" or "hooked" for "hikkakaru" I decided to see if there's something different in a different dictionary. This is what I found, so would you mind checking if this sounds about right? If it is, I believe the word "ensnare" can be used.

Thanks for the dictionary! "Attracted to" is close but a bit different. "引っかかる" has a negative tone to it, whereas the term "attracted to" has a neutral tone itself(or could be a positive tone).

It's my first time to hear about the word "ensnare". "Ensnare", "caught" seems a good term to use

Edited by narunarunaru, 15 October 2011 - 07:20 AM.