62 replies to this topic

[SkyStrider]

You're kidding, right? So by your logic, Sakura wouldn't be affected so much afterwards by Naruto's actions, and would pretty much keep a static view on him?

Sorry, I don't buy it.

Also, if you missed it what Nick already stated, after that little scene, she still says later on that she hates Naruto, so her view on him was pretty negative anyway.

Well, it's not as if she went in and said what she said not knowing he was an orphan. She knew that fact perfectly well beforehand, and still kept up her negative views (in fact, I'd say they were stronger because of it). Hell, she even tells Sasuke that she thinks him being an orphan is the reason why he's grown up to be such an annoying troublemaker.

So you tell me: if knowing his situation as an orphan didn't make her want to be nicer, and suddenly we get a scene in which Sasuke berates her for her views, and IMMEADIATELY we see her telling herself that maybe she should try and make an effort into noticing and being nicer to Naruto (a thought that, as slight and subconscious as it was, had NEVER occured to her before in any shape of form), how can we honestly still say that Sasuke's words WEREN'T the trigger? I mean, come on...

The rest of this is garbage. The point Nick was trying to make was that Naruto and Sakura's relationship did grow in part 1. Not to the extent of love, but definitely a sense of respect Sakura has for Naruto.

Also, and I don't get why people don't see this, but if Sakura never cared about her friends and family in Konoha, why would she bring them up in her persuasion to try and keep Sasuke with them, and last I checked, it was the first things she tried to do.

The very next day, she could have also easily left Konoha to chase after Sasuke, but she didn't, and instead asked Naruto to bring her back, and just like you said, it was then she realized that Naruto was the one always there for her. Furthermore, in the databook, it was stated specifically by Masashi Kishimoto that once Sakura realized that, her true development began. In other words, she was still a naive child.

Garbage, huh? Well, you're certainly welcome to your opinions. I'll very much keep to mine, thank you. And calling my analysis garbage is certainly not a good way to get me to agree to your views, I'll have you know.

Anyway, Nick's point, as he himself said, wasn't "Naruto and Sakura's ralationship grew in part 1". If this was the case, I'd have no disagreements. It did grow, albeit a small amount. What his point was, and what I completely object to, is the assertion that "most of the development of their relationship (as of present) comes from before Sasuke's departure". This is implying that the NaruSaku ship had gone through most of it's growth before Sasuke left. And I've already specified many reasons and shown lots of evidence as to why I simply cannot believe this to be true. Did Sakura grow to have a little respect for Naruto? Yes. Did she already consider him as important to her as Sasuke was (as she does now) before Sasuke left? Certainly not. And as is said before, that development happened AFTER Sasuke left, not BEFORE.

And do you know why people don't seem to "get" that point you just brought up about Sakura, Sasuke, and persuading him with family? BECAUSE SHE NEVER ACTUALLY TRIED THAT!!! Don't believe me? Read Chapter 181 again. The ONLY times she brings up friends and family is when she tells him how much she enjoyed her time with him in Team 7 (with no mentions of his feelings, btw), and how neither her friends or family would be able to cure her of the loneliness she would feel if he were to leave. So please, before you harp on me and others for supposedly not understanding the manga, do me and those others a favor and kindly read what it says for yourself. Maybe then you'll finally see that the only thing Sakura tried to keep Sasuke in Konoha with is a selfishly based promise of how the two of them would have fun everyday, and when this failed, she then moved past keeping him in Konoha and on to persuading him to let her join him in whatever he wanted to do.

Of course, you then mention that she could have chased Sasuke the next morning, but didn't. My question is, how does this take away from my point? Remember what Sakura wanted in the departure scene: She wanted to be with Sasuke, no matter where it was. Konoha was prefferred, but her willingness to ask him to take him with her shows she doesn't care where they go, as long as she's with him (or at least, what she thinks he is). Sakura already knew she couldn't persuade him to stay, and she already knew that he wouldn't accept her going with him in Sound. And seeing how he knocked her out and went off to directions unknown, she wouldn't know where to start going. So, seeing how she couldn't persuade him to stay or to take her with him, and didn't know where to start looking, and furthermore knew about Naruto and Sasuke's connection to each other as per the previous chapters, she really had only one hope left to get what she wanted (at that point in time): that Naruto and the search team would find him and force him to come back. Of course, we all know what happened next.

And one last thing: You ended by stating that Sakura's true development began at the realization that Naruto was always there for her. My question is this: When, exactly, did this happen? It happened at the "promise of a lifetime scene", didn't it? And that happened AFTER Sasuke left Konoha, right?

Thank you. Because in your absolute zeal to try and use canon to pick my opinions apart and impose your own, all you did was prove and underline my point.

SkyStrider

[Nick Soapdish]

I've already PMed a couple people, but so there isn't any confusion here, stick to debating the facts, not making personal observations about each other.

[MagusKyros]

Well, it's not as if she went in and said what she said not knowing he was an orphan. She knew that fact perfectly well beforehand, and still kept up her negative views (in fact, I'd say they were stronger because of it). Hell, she even tells Sasuke that she thinks him being an orphan is the reason why he's grown up to be such an annoying troublemaker.

So you tell me: if knowing his situation as an orphan didn't make her want to be nicer, and suddenly we get a scene in which Sasuke berates her for her views, and IMMEADIATELY we see her telling herself that maybe she should try and make an effort into noticing and being nicer to Naruto (a thought that, as slight and subconscious as it was, had NEVER occured to her before in any shape of form), how can we honestly still say that Sasuke's words WEREN'T the trigger? I mean, come on...

No, they weren't, because she reverted back to her previous self anyway later anyway. She didn't change her mind about him until after the Wave-Country arc, and then her little skirmish between the Sound-nins.

Garbage, huh? Well, you're certainly welcome to your opinions. I'll very much keep to mine, thank you. And calling my analysis garbage is certainly not a good way to get me to agree to your views, I'll have you know.

Anyway, Nick's point, as he himself said, wasn't "Naruto and Sakura's ralationship grew in part 1". If this was the case, I'd have no disagreements. It did grow, albeit a small amount. What his point was, and what I completely object to, is the assertion that "most of the development of their relationship (as of present) comes from before Sasuke's departure". This is implying that the NaruSaku ship had gone through most of it's growth before Sasuke left. And I've already specified many reasons and shown lots of evidence as to why I simply cannot believe this to be true. Did Sakura grow to have a little respect for Naruto? Yes. Did she already consider him as important to her as Sasuke was (as she does now) before Sasuke left? Certainly not. And as is said before, that development happened AFTER Sasuke left, not BEFORE.

No, the only thing Sakura did was realize that Naruto was there all along. Indicating that the development did happen already. All Sakura had to do was think back.

And do you know why people don't seem to "get" that point you just brought up about Sakura, Sasuke, and persuading him with family? BECAUSE SHE NEVER ACTUALLY TRIED THAT!!! Don't believe me? Read Chapter 181 again. The ONLY times she brings up friends and family is when she tells him how much she enjoyed her time with him in Team 7 (with no mentions of his feelings, btw), and how neither her friends or family would be able to cure her of the loneliness she would feel if he were to leave. So please, before you harp on me and others for supposedly not understanding the manga, do me and those others a favor and kindly read what it says for yourself. Maybe then you'll finally see that the only thing Sakura tried to keep Sasuke in Konoha with is a selfishly based promise of how the two of them would have fun everyday, and when this failed, she then moved past keeping him in Konoha and on to persuading him to let her join him in whatever he wanted to do.

And in the end, Sasuke left anyway, and supposedly Sakura was to feel so lonely that none of her friends would be able to bring her out of it, but Naruto did anyway, didn't he?

She was obviously blowing hot air.

Of course, you then mention that she could have chased Sasuke the next morning, but didn't. My question is, how does this take away from my point? Remember what Sakura wanted in the departure scene: She wanted to be with Sasuke, no matter where it was. Konoha was prefferred, but her willingness to ask him to take him with her shows she doesn't care where they go, as long as she's with him (or at least, what she thinks he is). Sakura already knew she couldn't persuade him to stay, and she already knew that he wouldn't accept her going with him in Sound. And seeing how he knocked her out and went off to directions unknown, she wouldn't know where to start going. So, seeing how she couldn't persuade him to stay or to take her with him, and didn't know where to start looking, and furthermore knew about Naruto and Sasuke's connection to each other as per the previous chapters, she really had only one hope left to get what she wanted (at that point in time): that Naruto and the search team would find him and force him to come back. Of course, we all know what happened next.

She could have easily followed Naruto's team, or even Kakashi later on.

And one last thing: You ended by stating that Sakura's true development began at the realization that Naruto was always there for her. My question is this: When, exactly, did this happen? It happened at the "promise of a lifetime scene", didn't it? And that happened AFTER Sasuke left Konoha, right?

Sasuke accelerated it, but her realization of Naruto was coming to her regardless of Sasuke's action.

The most prominent example I could remember right now is after he defeats Neji, and Sakura states that watching Naruto makes her want to do more. Another one is before she meets Sasuke. She goes and confides to Naruto about everything that has happened.

Thank you. Because in your absolute zeal to try and use canon to pick my opinions apart and impose your own, all you did was prove and underline my point.

SkyStrider

Uh huh.

Btw, I want to apologize for calling your post garbage. You put a lot of thought into it, but I felt it was off. I'm also a regular at NF as well (and I work at Wal-Mart ) So harsh language is pretty common from me.

[SkyStrider]

No, they weren't, because she reverted back to her previous self anyway later anyway. She didn't change her mind about him until after the Wave-Country arc, and then her little skirmish between the Sound-nins.

Actually, by virtue of even thinking that he could do anything good against Kakashi, Sakura had already begun to change her mind about him, seeing how that thought was certainly better than anything she had thought of him up to her conversation with Sasuke (remember, this is the same girl who thinks he became a troublemaker because he has no parents). However, it was very much a grudgingly reluctant thing brought about only by in-her-face evidence to the contrary. and it pretty much stayed that way until her epiphany at the promise of a lifetime.

No, the only thing Sakura did was realize that Naruto was there all along. Indicating that the development did happen already. All Sakura had to do was think back.

In a sense, you're right; All Sakura had to do was think back to see that Naruto had been there all along, and so would find some development in a friendship. However (and this is exactly the point I've been getting at in the beginning and am still getting at now), this development dealt exclusively with Naruto's feelings towards Sakura. Nowhere does she ever look back and think of what she did for him, it was all about what he did for her. It was a one-way street. Only AFTER her realization that he was there all along did she ever begin to return the favor willingly. My point isn't that NaruSaku wasn't developed at all before the "promise of a lifetime". My point is that it only truly became a two-way street (with both partners willingly exchanging feelings for one another ) after the promise of a lifetime. Until then, virtually all there had ever been was Naruto -----> Sakura. But after that, the relationship clearly became Naruto <-----> Sakura. And the 'ship's development, for the most part, happened AFTER that epiphany. THAT'S my point.

And in the end, Sasuke left anyway, and supposedly Sakura was to feel so lonely that none of her friends would be able to bring her out of it, but Naruto did anyway, didn't he?

She was obviously blowing hot air.

The fact that she was eventually brought out of loneliness doesn't change my point one whit. The point remains that at the time of the departure (and really, at any point before Naruto stated his understanding and his promise of a lifetime), Sakura's feelings regarding everyone as compared to Sasuke were so small that she felt the need to express the feeling that his leaving would leave her completely alone. And I personally think that she truly meant these words at the time she said them. The fact that she found she could move on and conquer loneliness with the aid of Naruto and the rest afterwards doesn't change the fact that she thought as little of them as she did at the time of the departure and before the promise of a lifetime.

She could have easily followed Naruto's team, or even Kakashi later on.

And do what? At that point, she'd already found that she couldn't use words to convince Sasuke to stay, and that he wouldn't accept her going with him to Sound. The only possibility she had left was to try and force him back and make him stay by force, which she also knew she couldn't do given how easily he knocked her out from behind. Sakura didn't go, simply because she knew there was nothing she could do at that point anymore. All she could do was hope that Naruto and the search team would have better luck.

Sasuke accelerated it, but her realization of Naruto was coming to her regardless of Sasuke's action.

The most prominent example I could remember right now is after he defeats Neji, and Sakura states that watching Naruto makes her want to do more. Another one is before she meets Sasuke. She goes and confides to Naruto about everything that has happened.

Actually, going by what Sakura said and thought throughout that arc, pretty much the only thing that would have had her making the reversal she made (from thinking so little of him that she'd tell Sasuke she'd be alone regardless of whether Naruto's there or not if Sasuke goes to wanting to train under Tsunade and become stronger for both Naruto's sake as well as Sasuke's) would have been exactly what indeed happened: Naruto giving an extraordinary display of loyalty and compassion by making that sort of sacrifice for her. Did she recognize Naruto's ability to inspire? Yes. Did she acknowledge that he became stronger? Yes. Had she already realized (or was on the track of realizing) that Naruto had always supported her through thick and thin? Sadly, no.

And it took exactly that sort of act (Naruto's promise/sacrifice), especially in contrast to what she'd already seen from Sasuke, to suddenly open her eyes to that specific reality (that Naruto had always been there for her and had always understood her). As it stands, the realization itself happened in that scene. And the fact of the matter is, that realization and reversal doesn't happen anywhere close to that point without that sort of act (and perhaps just as importantly, that act compared against its specific contrast in Sasuke's willing departure). So Sasuke's acts most certainly played a role in her change in attitude.

Btw, I want to apologize for calling your post garbage. You put a lot of thought into it, but I felt it was off. I'm also a regular at NF as well (and I work at Wal-Mart ) So harsh language is pretty common from me.

No worries.

SkyStrider

[MagusKyros]

The fact that she was eventually brought out of loneliness doesn't change my point one whit. The point remains that at the time of the departure (and really, at any point before Naruto stated his understanding and his promise of a lifetime), Sakura's feelings regarding everyone as compared to Sasuke were so small that she felt the need to express the feeling that his leaving would leave her completely alone. And I personally think that she truly meant these words at the time she said them. The fact that she found she could move on and conquer loneliness with the aid of Naruto and the rest afterwards doesn't change the fact that she thought as little of them as she did at the time of the departure and before the promise of a lifetime.

She was still blowing hot air, nonetheless. She herself contradicted that statement the very next morning when she asked Naruto to bring Sasuke back, and found out how wrong her own previous words and interpretations were.

Actually, going by what Sakura said and thought throughout that arc, pretty much the only thing that would have had her making the reversal she made (from thinking so little of him that she'd tell Sasuke she'd be alone regardless of whether Naruto's there or not if Sasuke goes to wanting to train under Tsunade and become stronger for both Naruto's sake as well as Sasuke's) would have been exactly what indeed happened: Naruto giving an extraordinary display of loyalty and compassion by making that sort of sacrifice for her. Did she recognize Naruto's ability to inspire? Yes. Did she acknowledge that he became stronger? Yes. Had she already realized (or was on the track of realizing) that Naruto had always supported her through thick and thin? Sadly, no.

And it took exactly that sort of act (Naruto's promise/sacrifice), especially in contrast to what she'd already seen from Sasuke, to suddenly open her eyes to that specific reality (that Naruto had always been there for her and had always understood her). As it stands, the realization itself happened in that scene. And the fact of the matter is, that realization and reversal doesn't happen anywhere close to that point without that sort of act (and perhaps just as importantly, that act compared against its specific contrast in Sasuke's willing departure). So Sasuke's acts most certainly played a role in her change in attitude.

SkyStrider

I'm basing my view loosely off the fact that they were both growing close to each other regardless of Sasuke's involvement. Sasuke did speed up the process by leaving and thus resulting in the whole promise of a lifetime, but that's all he did, was speed up the process. Just like how he enlightened her early back in chapter 3 about the whole loneliness issue.

From my understanding, people act according to what they know, learn, and experience. Part 2 Sakura's knowledge is a the best example of how Sakura's view on Naruto has shifted to something much higher; to the point that she would risk her life for even Naruto.

[Rick (Bonta-kun)]

I agree with Magus, id say even if Sasuke didnt leave, Sakura and Naruto still would have become as close as they are now, it just would have taken longer. I believe this because first off, she would have matured more as she grew older, second is the fact there have been quite a few scenes where Sakura has thought nice of Naruto before Sasuke left, which indicates she was getting to know him better. There are alot of other points i could make, but i cant be bothered atm. However what im trying to say is that all Sasukes defection did is speed up the process of them becoming good friends and that he helped the friendship a little at the start, so its not because of him that there good friends.

[SkyStrider]

She was still blowing hot air, nonetheless. She herself contradicted that statement the very next morning when she asked Naruto to bring Sasuke back, and found out how wrong her own previous words and interpretations were.

And I again ask you: This changes her past views how, exactly? Later discoveries do not and can never cancel out the initial thoughts from history. Sakura still had those thoughts and feelings regarding every other person's importance in her life as compared to Sasuke back then. No amount of later personal discovery that her views were incorrect from the absolute reality can erase that past. Will she have to face up to that past one day? I don't know. But is the possibility there? Certainly.

I'm basing my view loosely off the fact that they were both growing close to each other regardless of Sasuke's involvement. Sasuke did speed up the process by leaving and thus resulting in the whole promise of a lifetime, but that's all he did, was speed up the process. Just like how he enlightened her early back in chapter 3 about the whole loneliness issue.

From my understanding, people act according to what they know, learn, and experience. Part 2 Sakura's knowledge is a the best example of how Sakura's view on Naruto has shifted to something much higher; to the point that she would risk her life for even Naruto.

For the very last time, I'm NOT saying that Naruto and Sakura had not grown closer to each other at all before Sasuke left. They clearly had bettered their relations from the days when Sakura used to insult Naruto for being an orphan. What I'm saying is that the majority of their relationship's progression from a one-sided crush from Naruto to Sakura (and the accompanying revulsion/loathing from Sakura to Naruto) to an equally two-sided friendship with deep love potential between Naruto and Sakura happened AFTER the departure of Sasuke. Were they growing closer? Yes. Was that closeness significant from SAKURA'S point of view in the grand scheme of things? As I believe I've reiterated over and over, no. And that is the point I've been making over and over since the beginning.

And I, for one, certainly don't buy the theory that Sakura and Naruto would have gradually gotten mutually closer if the "status quo" (a.k.a life as it was in Team 7 before Sasuke's departure) had been held up in the place of what life became when Sasuke left. Or at the very least, it would have taken a VERY long time for that gradual closeness to develop; almost to the point where they would have had to have been deep into adulthood, and therefore, different people. The thing is, the relationship between Naruto and Sakura up until the promise of a lifetime had been a case of "one step back for nearly every step forward". Yes, Sakura stopped insulting Naruto for being an orphan. Yes, she had recognized his ability to fight and inspire. Yes, she occasionally had a few favorable thoughts towards him. But those moments of recognition and companionship from Sakura to Naruto up to that point (promise of a lifetime) were fleeting and exclusive to a single point in time at the very most. In truth, their relationship was going so slowly that it would have taken it forever to actually get somewhere. After that scene, however, those fleeting moments were suddenly replaced with a constant awareness and appreciation of the person Naruto was and a desire to truly become both his friend and confidant. Suddenly, their relationship was going places faster than they could see the signs showing where they'd come through. And that difference came about AFTER Sasuke's departure.

(Of course, I could then go into an entire spiel about how Sasuke's departure was actually NECESSARY for Sakura to ever fulfill her potential as a person/ninja (and by extension, for making NaruSaku into everything it is and can be), but that discussion is for another thread...)

But again, the only thing I think would have had Naruto and Sakura suddenly becoming as close friends in as short a time as they did (or for that matter, at any point within that "teenage" timeframe) is an act as eye-opening and revealing as the "promise of a lifetime" from Naruto to Sakura. Up to that point, no matter how many times she had complimented him or recognized his ability, Sakura simply couldn't be bothered to care for developing an enduring two-way understanding and friendship with Naruto. She was too busy putting virtually all of her focus on Sasuke for that. But, as I reiterate, after that moment, she very much wanted to be bothered with building such an understanding and friendship; so much so that we now have her offering to absolve Naruto of his promise by saying she'll save Sasuke for him.

SkyStrider

[Bryon_Konoha_Ninja]

If you ask me, guys, it also was that point when Naruto told Sakura he understood how she was feeling about Sasuke's betrayal and departure that made her see she didn't understand him as well as she thought she did in the beginning.

That's why she broke into more tears besides her tears about Sasuke leaving... she finally realized Naruto always understood her, and she never took full enough time to understand him, even if she began to slowly accept him.

Bryon

[MagusKyros]

And I again ask you: This changes her past views how, exactly? Later discoveries do not and can never cancel out the initial thoughts from history. Sakura still had those thoughts and feelings regarding every other person's importance in her life as compared to Sasuke back then. No amount of later personal discovery that her views were incorrect from the absolute reality can erase that past. Will she have to face up to that past one day? I don't know. But is the possibility there? Certainly.

And once again, she was blowing hot air. If she had noone to turn to, why would she appear after Naruto and ask him to bring Sasuke back because he's the only one that could? Also, prior to Sasuke departure, she unveiled all of her concerns about Sasuke to Naruto about the cursed seal and Orochimaru, despite Sasuke's wishes. She didn't go to Sasuke to resolve his problems, nor did she go to Kakashi, or anybody else. It was Naruto.

For the very last time, I'm NOT saying that Naruto and Sakura had not grown closer to each other at all before Sasuke left. They clearly had bettered their relations from the days when Sakura used to insult Naruto for being an orphan. What I'm saying is that the majority of their relationship's progression from a one-sided crush from Naruto to Sakura (and the accompanying revulsion/loathing from Sakura to Naruto) to an equally two-sided friendship with deep love potential between Naruto and Sakura happened AFTER the departure of Sasuke. Were they growing closer? Yes. Was that closeness significant from SAKURA'S point of view in the grand scheme of things? As I believe I've reiterated over and over, no. And that is the point I've been making over and over since the beginning.

Once again, her presence at the gates before Naruto's departure proves all of that wrong.

And I, for one, certainly don't buy the theory that Sakura and Naruto would have gradually gotten mutually closer if the "status quo" (a.k.a life as it was in Team 7 before Sasuke's departure) had been held up in the place of what life became when Sasuke left. Or at the very least, it would have taken a VERY long time for that gradual closeness to develop; almost to the point where they would have had to have been deep into adulthood, and therefore, different people. The thing is, the relationship between Naruto and Sakura up until the promise of a lifetime had been a case of "one step back for nearly every step forward". Yes, Sakura stopped insulting Naruto for being an orphan. Yes, she had recognized his ability to fight and inspire. Yes, she occasionally had a few favorable thoughts towards him. But those moments of recognition and companionship from Sakura to Naruto up to that point (promise of a lifetime) were fleeting and exclusive to a single point in time at the very most. In truth, their relationship was going so slowly that it would have taken it forever to actually get somewhere. After that scene, however, those fleeting moments were suddenly replaced with a constant awareness and appreciation of the person Naruto was and a desire to truly become both his friend and confidant. Suddenly, their relationship was going places faster than they could see the signs showing where they'd come through. And that difference came about AFTER Sasuke's departure.

No, she would end up the same as if she was in part 2. Most of her development happened in the timeskip when she learned about Akatsuki, Orochimaru, Sasuke, and mostly Naruto. She never knew beforehand what kind of life he has had, while the situation was different for Sasuke.

Also, if Sasuke stayed, nothing much would have happened between him and Sakura. Probably even less so than if he did leave. He had no interest in Sakura, nor would he grow one. He never tells her anything (according to Sakura), and the reason for leaving in the first place was because he was envious of Naruto's power, and his meeting with Itachi. That's why he was behaving more malevolently toward Naruto and Sakura after he was healed by Tsunade.

(Of course, I could then go into an entire spiel about how Sasuke's departure was actually NECESSARY for Sakura to ever fulfill her potential as a person/ninja (and by extension, for making NaruSaku into everything it is and can be), but that discussion is for another thread...)

No, Sasuke's departure just sped up the inevitable. The databook specifically states that it was because of Naruto that her true development would have began.

But again, the only thing I think would have had Naruto and Sakura suddenly becoming as close friends in as short a time as they did (or for that matter, at any point within that "teenage" timeframe) is an act as eye-opening and revealing as the "promise of a lifetime" from Naruto to Sakura. Up to that point, no matter how many times she had complimented him or recognized his ability, Sakura simply couldn't be bothered to care for developing an enduring two-way understanding and friendship with Naruto. She was too busy putting virtually all of her focus on Sasuke for that. But, as I reiterate, after that moment, she very much wanted to be bothered with building such an understanding and friendship; so much so that we now have her offering to absolve Naruto of his promise by saying she'll save Sasuke for him.

SkyStrider

The only reason she was so focursed on Sasuke was because of the cursed seal. Ever since Orochimaru appeared, she was worried about the influence the cursed seal has on him. It's all she's ever worried about, other then Orochimaru kidnapping him, of course.

Why would she worry about Naruto? It's not like she knew he had a group of S-classed criminals wanting to pull out the Kyuubi that was sealed inside him which was the cause of his lonely and painful childhood she never knew about. Unlike her knowledge of Sasuke's past with his desire to avenge his massacred clan.

[SkyStrider]

And once again, she was blowing hot air. If she had noone to turn to, why would she appear after Naruto and ask him to bring Sasuke back because he's the only one that could? Also, prior to Sasuke departure, she unveiled all of her concerns about Sasuke to Naruto about the cursed seal and Orochimaru, despite Sasuke's wishes. She didn't go to Sasuke to resolve his problems, nor did she go to Kakashi, or anybody else. It was Naruto.

Why would she turn to Naruto? BECAUSE (as I stated before multiple times), HE WAS THE ONLY HOPE SHE HAD LEFT TO GET BACK SASUKE!!!! Can you honestly not wrap your head around the idea that Sakura first went to Naruto at the gate only because she saw him as the means to an end?!?!? She did NOT see him as a friend equal in stature to Sasuke, and she damn sure wasn't worried about what would happen to him in that mission when she asked him to bring Sasuke back . All she knew was that Tsunade would be sending a rescue team, and probably knew Naruto would be on it because Tsunade SPECIFICALLY recommended Shikamaru to take Naruto along. So, knowing what she knew, she went to that gate for one purpose only: to do all she could to make Naruto do what she couldn't. She already knew that Sasuke cared about Naruto way more than he did about her, and that Naruto and Sasuke were pretty much even in fighting ability (from the water tower fight). So she went there not because she considered Naruto important enough to HER to do it, but because she KNEW Sasuke was important enough for HIM that he'd do it.

In short, the sad truth is that Sakura initially only went to that gate in an attempt to use Naruto as a tool to get what she wanted. Not because she cared for him or found him a shoulder worthy to cry on, but because she knew he had a better chance to do what she herself wanted to but couldn't due to both his powers and HIS relationship with Sasuke. Of course, we all know that she got more than she bargained for in that scene, and so came to make a reversal and sincerely began to care for him. But the fact remains that Sakura first went to that gate seeing Naruto as a means to an end she wanted.

And you sure seem to love playing up that "date" Sakura had with Naruto (and her confessions about Orochimaru) as an example of how she started to "trust him". But apparently, you seem to conveniently forget the context of that conversation. For example, have you completely forgotten that she'd already gone to Kakashi with her concerns, and gotten nothing more than assurances that things would be fine? Or have you completely forgotten the fact that Sakura only asked Naruto out on that "date" after he SPECIFICALLY told her (in an angry tone, no less) "Don't Interfere!"? As we all know, he was specifically talking about her getting in the way of him fighting Sasuke, since he thought that's what Sasuke wanted. And furthermore, she KNEW that the two were fighting to injure/kill, given that Sasuke was using Chidori (am assassination jutsu) and Naruto's Rasengan was apparently just as powerful. So, knowing that, we can see her "date" with Naruto wasn't a matter of trusting him against Sasuke's will (or heaven forbid, trusting him over Kakashi). It was simply a matter of trying to protect Sasuke by telling Naruto that his actions stemmed from something she felt Naruto simply didn't understand. After all, she was choosing between keeping Sasuke's wishes or preventing his increasingly likely serious injury/death at Naruto's hands due to a misunderstanding. Are you really surprised she chose the latter? I'm not.

Once again, her presence at the gates before Naruto's departure proves all of that wrong.

No it doesn't. Her presence at that gate proves nothing more than her willingness to see Naruto not as a close friend to help cure her loneliness in Sasuke's absence, but as a tool to achieve an end (her being with Sasuke again). And this is completely consistent with her apparent belief (at the time of Sasuke's departure) and her implication in Chapter 181 that Naruto's existence in her life wouldn't help her deal with her loneliness at Sasuke's departure one iota.

No, she would end up the same as if she was in part 2. Most of her development happened in the timeskip when she learned about Akatsuki, Orochimaru, Sasuke, and mostly Naruto. She never knew beforehand what kind of life he has had, while the situation was different for Sasuke.

Her learning any of that (including Naruto's past) has absolutely NOTHING to do with her realization that Naruto had always been there for her. And it's that realization that's the turning point which brought about her relationship with Naruto in Part 2, and the ONLY reason Naruto and Sakura have the type of relationship they now share at THIS POINT IN TIME. So consider this truth:

Without the combination of the show of empathy Naruto gave, the "promise of a lifetime", and the realization that it immediately brought her during Chapter 183, Naruto and Sakura's relationship during Part II would simply not be on the level of closeness and understanding it currently is.

I don't see what's so hard to understand or accept about this. Heck, even the NaruSaku manifesto on this site (which I mostly agree with but has some big points I strongly object to) recognizes this as truth.

Also, if Sasuke stayed, nothing much would have happened between him and Sakura. Probably even less so than if he did leave. He had no interest in Sakura, nor would he grow one. He never tells her anything (according to Sakura), and the reason for leaving in the first place was because he was envious of Naruto's power, and his meeting with Itachi. That's why he was behaving more malevolently toward Naruto and Sakura after he was healed by Tsunade.

Sasuke's feelings towards Sakura have absolutely nothing to do with any of this. Whether SasuSaku would have had any development or not if he were to stay is absolutely moot at this point, seeing how at that point in time, Naruto and everyone else already weren't even on Sakura's radar screen compared to Sasuke anyhow. So as to why you brought this up, I haven't the slightest idea.

No, Sasuke's departure just sped up the inevitable. The databook specifically states that it was because of Naruto that her true development would have began.

The databook says that it's because of her realization of Naruto always being there for her that her true development begins. Never does it say that Naruto's "existance" (since that's what you obviously mean) is the source of her development. Otherwise, she'd have started her development from the moment she met Naruto, or failing that, any moment after he was put into her team. But the databook SPECIFICALLY points out THAT MOMENT (the promise of a lifetime and her realization of his empathy and loyalty) as her turning point. There was absolutely nothing inevitable about it. Basically, to use a football analogy, Naruto, in regards to a relationship with Sakura, was being shut out of the game until he threw up the mother of all "hail mary"'s at a time when he least meant to, and lo and behold, completed it for a touchdown. And since then, he hasn't stopped getting into the end zone.

The only reason she was so focursed on Sasuke was because of the cursed seal. Ever since Orochimaru appeared, she was worried about the influence the cursed seal has on him. It's all she's ever worried about, other then Orochimaru kidnapping him, of course.

Why would she worry about Naruto? It's not like she knew he had a group of S-classed criminals wanting to pull out the Kyuubi that was sealed inside him which was the cause of his lonely and painful childhood she never knew about. Unlike her knowledge of Sasuke's past with his desire to avenge his massacred clan.

You're kidding me, right? Do you honestly mean to say that the only reason she ever came to focus on Sasuke and ignore Naruto was because of the cursed seal?!?!? You can't be serious here. Have you forgotten the bell test, where Kakashi specifically berated her for only focusing on Sasuke and ignoring Naruto in the process? Have you forgotten the Wave arc, when she focused only on Sasuke's well-being throughout that entire fight on the bridge, and at the end of it, ran to tend Sasuke, all the while acting as if Naruto wasn't even there? Have you forgotten the moring after their return, when she dropped Naruto like a bag of potatoes in order to try and work on "teamwork" with just her and Sasuke (and notably rejects Naruto rudely when he says she can join him)? Sakura already had nearly all of her focus on Sasuke from way back BEFORE he got any stinkin' cursed seal; in fact, she had it right at the very beginning of the manga! And it was only when he left her and she saw Naruto's incredible show of loyalty to her that she finally stopped.

SkyStrider

[Bryon_Konoha_Ninja]

Whoa, whoa, easy, guys, EASY!! We don't need a war to break out or something here... XD THis is just a simple conversation that is startin' to explode into something more...

Bryon

[canis]

Hey there!

Very nice discussion! I've really enjoyed reading it so far...

On this subject I'd side with Skystrider, since I've felt similar when reading part I...
Even though Sakura did some warming up towards Naruto, her behaviour only changed 180° after the promise.
Nevertheless it never bothered me that much. Sakura fought very hard to not let anyone get close to her, especially Naruto.
-She dropped Ino when it became known, that she also had a crush on Sasuke.
-Lee didn't even register on her radar and got shot down because he looked funny (and not flawless like Sasuke)
-Naruto interfered with Sasuke, both by trying to get Sakura to notice him and with his rivalry with him.
She was so set on the Uchiha, that there simply wasn't place for friends...
I also think that her change had already begun without her noticing and we got a glimpse of it, when she tried to protect Naruto from failing in the written Chuunin Exams and acknowledged Lee for trying to protect her from the 2 Sound Nin.
When Sasuke left and her world came tumbling down it simply clicked into place.

[Silent Shinobi]

Why would she turn to Naruto? BECAUSE (as I stated before multiple times), HE WAS THE ONLY HOPE SHE HAD LEFT TO GET BACK SASUKE!!!! Can you honestly not wrap your head around the idea that Sakura first went to Naruto at the gate only because she saw him as the means to an end?!?!? She did NOT see him as a friend equal in stature to Sasuke, and she damn sure wasn't worried about what would happen to him in that mission when she asked him to bring Sasuke back . All she knew was that Tsunade would be sending a rescue team, and probably knew Naruto would be on it because Tsunade SPECIFICALLY recommended Shikamaru to take Naruto along. So, knowing what she knew, she went to that gate for one purpose only: to do all she could to make Naruto do what she couldn't. She already knew that Sasuke cared about Naruto way more than he did about her, and that Naruto and Sasuke were pretty much even in fighting ability (from the water tower fight). So she went there not because she considered Naruto important enough to HER to do it, but because she KNEW Sasuke was important enough for HIM that he'd do it.

Not so. You say that Sakura was simply using Naruto, but there is nothing in the manga that suggests that Sakura knew Naruto was going to rescue Sasuke before she approached him, or that her request was anything as uncaring as that. As you said, all Sakura knew was that Tsunade was sending a team. She told Naruto that she had tried and failed to get Sasuke to stay. She said that she believed that Naruto was the only one that could do it, not that Naruto was her best shot. In short, she approached Naruto because she believed in his ability to succeed where she failed, not because she wanted to use him. That stance is pure conjecture.

In short, the sad truth is that Sakura initially only went to that gate in an attempt to use Naruto as a tool to get what she wanted. Not because she cared for him or found him a shoulder worthy to cry on, but because she knew he had a better chance to do what she herself wanted to but couldn't due to both his powers and HIS relationship with Sasuke. Of course, we all know that she got more than she bargained for in that scene, and so came to make a reversal and sincerely began to care for him. But the fact remains that Sakura first went to that gate seeing Naruto as a means to an end she wanted.

Again, that's just an interpretation. One far removed from what the actual dialogue suggests. The dialogue states that she was placing her faith and trust in Naruto because she believed in him, not that she was using him as an expendable tool. I don't understand your reasoning; how can you take such a literal stance on a chapter like 181, and then be so subjective in regards to other chapters? That makes no sense. How can you determine what words are to be taken at face value, and what aren't? Short answer is: you can't.

And enough with the whole "the sad truth" shtick. It's not the truth, it's your opinion. Don't shove it down people's throats, if you would be so kind.

At this point I'd like to get back to your rebuttal of Nick's post, for as much as I disagree with your points to Magus, I'd like to stay on topic here.

There is simply no escaping this, people. This is an absolute fact proved in black and white by Chapter 3 of the Naruto manga. Without Sasuke's strong expressions of annoyance and disgust at Sakura's views on Naruto and his loneliness, Sakura's epiphany that she should try to be nicer to Naruto, and by extension, their relationship as it is now, would simply not have come to be. Saddening? Perhaps. But it is what it is, and there is nothing that Sakura has or can possibly do in the future that can change that.

It's impossible for you to make any such assertion with any accurancy here. The only fact here is that Sasuke displayed disgust at her views, and she thought that maybe she should try being nicer to Naruto. Adding your own conclusion as fact is a blatant fallacy.

Naruto has needed little outside help to change anyone's views of him. Furthermore, Sakura changing her views of Naruto is NOT an extension of her 'being nicer to him'. Throughout the manga Sasuke has never told Sakura to change or improve her opinion of Naruto, which is what Nick's post is concerning. Sakura even came to the conclusion to try to be nicer to Naruto (which she didn't at first, even) of her own accord. So while Sasuke's input was definitely an eye-opener to her own attitude, it does nothing for her opinion of Naruto.

To me, it's utterly astounding just how much Sakura is saying here in regards to how highly she regards Sasuke in comparison to everyone else. At that point, she doesn't care enough about her family, teammates (of which Naruto happens to be one), or friends enough to be worried about abandoning her family, or about betraying her village, her team, and her friends. Nor would she apparently mind being a member of Orochimaru's Sound village.

What exactly are you arguing? Believe it or not, this does nothing to counter Nick's post at all. Nick asserts that the development of Sakura and Naruto's relationship as a friendship was largely developed in Part 1, and is already in place by Part 2. NOT that Sakura cared more about Naruto than Sasuke at that point.

Actually, the fact that she would come to Naruto beseeching him to get Sasuke back shows how far she has come in her opinion of him. She entrusted him with what you claim was the utmost important thing to her - Sasuke. Would that not speak of the high regard and full faith and trust in him that she has? That's quite a development from the beginning, when he was good-for-nothing Naruto that she hated, to practically on her knees begging him. And this is just one of the scenes you focus on, not the sum of the other scenes that illustrate Naruto and Sakura becoming closer to each other (which is what Nick was focusing on).

I highly disagree with many of your points and assumptions, I believe you've missed the mark fairly often in your spin on things. However, if you wish for that to be discussed, you'd do better making a new thread. For me to respond to it here would be fundamentally off-topic, because as you should be able to see, most of your post does not even apply to the topic at hand.

Therefore, if you'd like to submit a rebuttal to Nick's topic, I advise you come again. Even if what you state was "the sad truth" or "absolute fact" as you like to claim, you're on an entirely different subject. A classic case of barking up the wrong tree.

~Tatsumaru

[Bryon_Konoha_Ninja]

WOW, Silent Shinobi, you are good!! That was a nice rebuttal.

OK, OK, one thing I think we are forgetting is one thing for sure in terms of scenes. One thing where Sakura started to definitely see Naruto in a much better light beyond just anything else.

The time Sasuke told her that Naruto was the one who had saved her from Gaara, even when she thought it was Sasuke. And when she realized how far Naruto went to save her, she just looked at him... even as he was trying so hard to do the Chidori...

And gave him a smile that we know usually, she would smile for Sasuke like that.

That just showed you she started to have a lot more faith in Naruto besides in the past events mentioned before, guys, as well as maybe a lil more. But I could be reading into it too much.

Anyhow, we seem to have overlooked that scene, considering it has a good bit of Sakura's changed opinion of Naruto besides when she puts all her faith in him to save Sasuke after she comes to the gate when Team Shikamaru is about to set off.

I also had felt, as I said before, perhaps when Sakura began to cry more, it wasn't just the weight of Sasuke's departure getting to her, but it might have also been due to Naruto telling her he understood how she felt (and he did genuinely too, sunce he had faith Sasuke wouldn't do what he did). And that might have been another reason why she hugged herself... just because she finally came to realize Naruto always cared about her, even when she assumed all he tried to do was ruin her love life and enjoyed making her suffer when she was a foolish kid. ^^

OK, I am done for now. To be honest, if I get into a rant, I am gonna be in one for a while, and I'd prefer to not be in a rut.

Bryon

[Daidoji_Tangen]

Nick, your essay was great.

But I want to comment on how wonderfully you phrased something I have felt for a long time. And to let you know, unless you ask me not to, I'll be using your great phrasing.

All it proved to me was that her love wasn't "real", but just a crush, jumbled up with feelings of friendship and wanting to take care of the poor boy. I believe that she meant every word that she said at the time - or at least thought that she did, but she was just caught up in the moment. To me, it showed that her feelings for Sasuke were out of sync with what's normal or healthy when she said that she was willing to do anything to be with him regardless of how it affected anyone else, including him or even her.

That's simply a great way to put it.

Well, it's not as if she went in and said what she said not knowing he was an orphan. She knew that fact perfectly well beforehand, and still kept up her negative views (in fact, I'd say they were stronger because of it). Hell, she even tells Sasuke that she thinks him being an orphan is the reason why he's grown up to be such an annoying troublemaker.

So you tell me: if knowing his situation as an orphan didn't make her want to be nicer, and suddenly we get a scene in which Sasuke berates her for her views, and IMMEADIATELY we see her telling herself that maybe she should try and make an effort into noticing and being nicer to Naruto (a thought that, as slight and subconscious as it was, had NEVER occured to her before in any shape of form), how can we honestly still say that Sasuke's words WEREN'T the trigger? I mean, come on...
Garbage, huh? Well, you're certainly welcome to your opinions. I'll very much keep to mine, thank you. And calling my analysis garbage is certainly not a good way to get me to agree to your views, I'll have you know.

Except that Sasuke's comments made her nicer to Naruto for a few moments. It did not have a great lasting impact since later that day she has no problem saying the thing she hates is Naruto.


This whole debate seems based on whether or not Sasuke was Sakura's only reason for living. He's not.

Even her rivalry with Ino was largely because Sakura wanted to move out of Ino's shadow and shine on her own.

Don't get me wrong. He, and her crush on him, was important but not all of her actions were based on that crush. That's making her way too two dimensional.

[Bryon_Konoha_Ninja]

Dadoji's right. Sakura started to slowly let her feelings for Sasuke not affect her in many situations. Like when it came to the battle vs. Kin, Dosu, and Zaku. Her main goal was to shine on her own in her head since she came to realize out of everyone in Team Kakashi, she had the least special skills and talent, even if earlier in that same day that she felt distraught when Sasuke commented on Naruto even being stronger than her.

That point shows she was dead set to prove herself to the others by protecting them after they protected her.

Bryon

[Nick Soapdish]

I'm not exactly sure where to begin since it seems like you're determined to take the worst possible view of Sakura's motives in part one with regard to Naruto and the most expansive with regard to Sakura's feelings for Sasuke.

I'm not even sure that I want to since I think that Magus, Byron, and Silent have done a fairly good job and I don't know how to convince you to stop reading so much into Sakura's intentions when it means the worst for Naruto and so little when it means well for him.

I'll just note that I wasn't attempting to argue that Naruto and Sasuke were equal in her heart or estimation, at least prior to the PoaL. I only argued that she did regard him as a friend, even if she may have not admitted it out loud. Your main rebuttal to that point seems to be chapter 183 which assumes that she doesn't have any friends or close relationships in Konoha except for Sasuke.

I think that the PoaL was a very important event in their relationship that pushed it forward. I just don't think it's what started it. It wouldn't have meant much to Sakura if he wasn't already an important person to her that she trusted.

[Bryon_Konoha_Ninja]

I'm not exactly sure where to begin since it seems like you're determined to take the worst possible view of Sakura's motives in part one with regard to Naruto and the most expansive with regard to Sakura's feelings for Sasuke.

I'm not even sure that I want to since I think that Magus, Byron, and Silent have done a fairly good job and I don't know how to convince you to stop reading so much into Sakura's intentions when it means the worst for Naruto and so little when it means well for him.

I'll just note that I wasn't attempting to argue that Naruto and Sasuke were equal in her heart or estimation, at least prior to the PoaL. I only argued that she did regard him as a friend, even if she may have not admitted it out loud. Your main rebuttal to that point seems to be chapter 183 which assumes that she doesn't have any friends or close relationships in Konoha except for Sasuke.

I think that the PoaL was a very important event in their relationship that pushed it forward. I just don't think it's what started it. It wouldn't have meant much to Sakura if he wasn't already an important person to her that she trusted.

Nick, you got the truth of it, man.

And we know after her elimination from the Chunin Exam that Sakura began to reform her friendship with Ino since she felt she finally was out of her shadow, as well as still being her rival now and then. ^^ But they have gotten a bit better.

BIT being the key word.

And also, the Promise of a Lifetime to bring Sasuke home is what indeed pushed their relationship forward, since Naruto went so far to keep his promise that he ended up so badly hurt. Even if Sakura was hurting at first because of Naruto being unsuccessful, all that faded away the minute she saw how badly hurt he was.

Hence why she didn't want him to keep his promise to her, even if it was a Promise of a Lifetime, since she didn't want to see him get her again, even if Sakura was still hurting from both that and also seeing how hurt Naruto was.

Bryon

[Nick Soapdish]

Nick, your essay was great.

But I want to comment on how wonderfully you phrased something I have felt for a long time. And to let you know, unless you ask me not to, I'll be using your great phrasing.
That's simply a great way to put it.

Um, ok.

I wasn't really happy with it myself. I think it gets it across, but it's sort of muddled so if you don't already see it that way, it might sound off. If I come up with a cleaner way to say it, I'll let you know so you can "switch out".

As an aside, I'm glad for the criticism on my points. Don't agree with any of it, but I love the increased discussion about Sakura in part one.

[Silent Shinobi]

WOW, Silent Shinobi, you are good!! That was a nice rebuttal.

OK, OK, one thing I think we are forgetting is one thing for sure in terms of scenes. One thing where Sakura started to definitely see Naruto in a much better light beyond just anything else.

The time Sasuke told her that Naruto was the one who had saved her from Gaara, even when she thought it was Sasuke. And when she realized how far Naruto went to save her, she just looked at him... even as he was trying so hard to do the Chidori...

And gave him a smile that we know usually, she would smile for Sasuke like that.

That just showed you she started to have a lot more faith in Naruto besides in the past events mentioned before, guys, as well as maybe a lil more. But I could be reading into it too much.

Anyhow, we seem to have overlooked that scene, considering it has a good bit of Sakura's changed opinion of Naruto besides when she puts all her faith in him to save Sasuke after she comes to the gate when Team Shikamaru is about to set off.

I also had felt, as I said before, perhaps when Sakura began to cry more, it wasn't just the weight of Sasuke's departure getting to her, but it might have also been due to Naruto telling her he understood how she felt (and he did genuinely too, sunce he had faith Sasuke wouldn't do what he did). And that might have been another reason why she hugged herself... just because she finally came to realize Naruto always cared about her, even when she assumed all he tried to do was ruin her love life and enjoyed making her suffer when she was a foolish kid. ^^

OK, I am done for now. To be honest, if I get into a rant, I am gonna be in one for a while, and I'd prefer to not be in a rut.

Bryon

Lol, thanks for the praise, mate, but I didn't do much XD. One thing I'd like to point out in what you say however:

And gave him a smile that we know usually, she would smile for Sasuke like that.

Do we really now? Maybe I'm forgetful, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I can't recall a single chapter where Sakura ever gave Sasuke such a heartfelt smile, lol.