68 replies to this topic

[Sakamaki Izayoi]

You know, I was thinking alongside those lines. Okay, the thread opener has got fed up with the manga and has quit (or claimed he/she did). Understandable. But it was necessary opening a thread to loudly inform everyone of you are leaving because the manga sucks and its creator sucks? It feels like provoking message board drama unnecessarily.
 
When I have quit a forum I merely stopped to go. I did not open threads about it.

Actually i agree with you on this part too.
I dont find her reason to drop much legit because well, the manga was always sexist since the begining and even how the kunoichis were trained to use their cis-privilege to take advantage on undercover missions.
I already knew beforehand about it but i dont give two kittens about feminism.

I also agree with this too, i dont feel like sexism on Naruto is worthy of debate since every shounen does this, remember how Nami breasts grow out of nowhere in One Peace for the sake of fanservice.
Yep i think unecessary board drama too.
Which is why i dont post much often after the chapter is released because people talk much around little things like, youtubbers channels, small things about Sakura, menes, translations of every minor detail.
I prefer to not post when there's discussions i'm not interested.

Edited by Dαrkrєrsŧ, 25 June 2014 - 01:46 PM.

[Nate River]

Not to mention that it is Almost always romance in shojo like it's assuming all girls are into romance just like it assumes all boys like action and dislike romance or idea of romance. It is assumptions based on stereotypes created for the sake of convenience.
 

Um, While I do understand and agree with your thoughts about empowering women in fiction, I wouldn't call this chapter sexist because Naruto just Surprised Kaguya, he didn't finish her off yet. and while It is true that the series did not portray the female characters too well as strong, independent women, their value shouldn't be undermined either or that would be just as sexist to not like them because they don't meet standards, if you don't mind me saying. Equality for women shouldn't be just about empowering them but also appreciate that not all women are strong just like not all men are strong either and shouldn't be pressured into being something that they are not.
 
But if you truly are done then I have nothing against that.

I can't even make it to this part. I'd have to care about her before I worried about her being sexist. She's almost to flat a character to even be sexist. There is absolutely nothing there.

[Hanabi]

Was this thread really necessary? No offense, but sometimes I feel like some people just complain because they like hearing themselves talk. Sexism? You know I should claim sexism with all the shojo manga because they make all the men seem like stupid pretty boys who are really too high into themselves. Looking at you Ouren High School Host Club.

what's wrong with ouran

[Hiddlestoner]

Was this thread really necessary? No offense, but sometimes I feel like some people just complain because they like hearing themselves talk. Sexism? You know I should claim sexism with all the shojo manga because they make all the men seem like stupid pretty boys who are really too high into themselves. Looking at you Ouren High School Host Club.

I wanted to like your post but unfortunately I've already reached my 'likes' limit.

[James S Cassidy]

what's wrong with ouran

I don't know, what's wrong with Naruto?

I can make a complaint about anything and that's kind of the point. Is it really sexism? Why not complain when men are objectified in Shojo manga? Hell, people don't even see the fact that 40% of domesticated violence is actually women beating up on men. 40%.

Here is a discussion about a social experiment where everyone rushes to aid of the girl when she is being attacked by the man, but when the woman is beating the guy up people just laugh and laugh.

A video example.

http://www.buzzfeed....e-a-man-in?bffb

Sexism does exist, but is it always sexism? Is it really truly sexism or are people just making a case out of really nothing?

There is nothing wrong with Ouran High School Host club. I actually like the show, but can't it also be technically sexist because these men are literally objectifying themselves for female pleasure for money? Women who don't really understand the feelings or the personality behind the men, but really just see their acting skills and their "looks" to be this huge turn on? Even Haruhi, a female pretending to be a boy, breaks this stereotype because she acts just like a man and nobody is any wiser to that fact. (BTW, Ouran is written by a female manga writer.)

So isn't that sexist or would you say I am just complaining for the sake of complaining? Believe it or not, but some women who claim men are sexist against women are they themselves sexist against men.

Sexism is wrong no matter if you are a man or a woman.
 

I wanted to like your post but unfortunately I've already reached my 'likes' limit.

 

It's cool.

Edited by James S Cassidy, 25 June 2014 - 02:35 PM.

[sushi.]

Was this thread really necessary? No offense, but sometimes I feel like some people just complain because they like hearing themselves talk. Sexism? You know I should claim sexism with all the shojo manga because they make all the men seem like stupid pretty boys who are really too high into themselves. Looking at you Ouren High School Host Club.

You're basically saying you shouldn't speak up against sexism in Naruto because it's not the worst. Not everyone reads those shojos you're talking about, I haven't even heard of them. This is not a competition.

 

I watched the video you linked to too. You're overreacting. Come on, she beat him up? She merely pushed him. I think the people reacted the way they did because of the power struggle between genders. In the first situation, chances are that woman is in an abusive relationship, and she is unable to defend herself, while the man is not. I would've made that assumption, but it would take more than a few pushes with the guy. It was horrible to laugh though, they shouldn't have.

[James S Cassidy]

You're basically saying you shouldn't speak up against sexism in Naruto because it's not the worst. Not everyone reads those shojos you're talking about, I haven't even heard of them. This is not a competition.

No, Sushi, what I am saying is if you are going to claim sexism you better be sure it actually is sexism and not just a product of your own personal hatred. Any person can scream sexism because they see a man touch a girls shoulder or because the man saves her life. Hell, I have seen people claim sexism because the woman was powerful and strong because they think that they were too much trying to make the woman a man.

Is it stupid? Yes. Yes it is. The amount of people overreact to things is ridiculous, but it is out there and it does happen.

 

I watched the video you linked to too. You're overreacting. Come on, she beat him up? She merely pushed him. I think the people reacted the way they did because of the power struggle between genders. In the first situation, chances are that woman is in an abusive relationship, and she is unable to defend herself, while the man is not. I would've made that assumption, but it would take more than a few pushes with the guy. It was horrible to laugh though, they shouldn't have.

See, this is exactly what I am talking about and this is why sexism can and does exist. Thank you for proving my point. Overreacting? Couldn't that be said with the first example where he was pushing her? Yet, people still reacted to it and claimed to call the police on him. You call it overreacting, but when he pushes her apparently that is true sexism? You see I was myself in an abusive relationship were she beat me up, called me names, physically and emotionally put me down to the point that I felt worthless. I know what being the victim of sexism really is and while many of my guy friends saw me being abused, her girl friends called her a saint and said that she was so strong and powerful to not let a man bully her around. Even though I never bullied her in the first place.

To know that you actually think this way, Sushi, actually offends me deeply because I was a victim a time in my life. The more you know.

Bolded: That very reason is the reason why people never see men as the victim and why woman are always seen as the victim. Not all men are the same.

The video I showed you was two actors purposely trying to see the reactions of domesticated violence from both sides and as shown they didn't react to the woman beating up the man at all because they thought the same as you. "Well, he is a man he can handle it." No, not all men are like that and they can be victims too.

It also comes to the point of objectifying men and woman in media. Woman are seen as curvy vixen like girls while men are seen with chiseled chin, muscular body, and near perfect flawless features. Men are just as objectified as woman, but nobody cares about that now do they? Do you think we should have more fat pigs of men and woman dressing in underwear in advertisements?

This manga is not sexist. It's not treating woman poorly and Kishimoto is not depicting woman in a negative light. He has shown a wide range of men and woman in this story of many different caliber including that of strong leaders. There is no hatred of any kind towards a certain sex and to even bring that up means that you are implicating something that isn't.

I bring up shojo manga because they are manga specifically tailored to the female perspective and female interests which means that most of the males of these stories are going to be of stereotypes. Ideal versions of what males apparently "look" like. Should I complain about them being sexist too? I mean, even most of the writers are females and they are the ones that write these stories.

So just as you ask me, aren't you just overreating?
 

Edited by James S Cassidy, 25 June 2014 - 03:52 PM.

[Shadow1275]

I agree, the manga itself has taken a huge step backward compared to when it was about hand to hand combat mixed with cool techniques and espionage. Now its plot twist after plot twist followed by pairing drama and Naruto doing something stupid. I'm considering dropping it myself.

[tricksie]

Since we're discussing a manga coming from a country where some men are at this moment shouting down female politicians, telling them to stay home and have babies and to go find a husband instead of trying to be active in government, I think the thread content is topical. Wether the OP comes back or not.

 

There are cultural differences that we all have to grapple with, whether we are reading from a progressive or conservative pov/country, or we are detecting cultural influences that are vastly different from our own.

 

I'm not being diplomatic about it. I think it's interesting to read Japanese manga that doesn't pander to international infuences, and then discuss it with readers from all over the world. It's not like reading Shakespeare or Austen or Poe, where the world in which they are writing is set in stone, and we can only look at it historically.

 

Social changes are still unfolding all over the world, equality for women is one of them. And Japan is one of those places where society is still changing from centuries of gender-specific roles to weighing equality with a down-sliding population. 

[Tsuki Hoshino]

Was this thread really necessary? No offense, but sometimes I feel like some people just complain because they like hearing themselves talk. Sexism? You know I should claim sexism with all the shojo manga because they make all the men seem like stupid pretty boys who are really too high into themselves. Looking at you Ouren High School Host Club.

How much Shojo have you actually read? because 96% of Shojo guys are tough, generally smarter and more dangerous ( and driven by sex) then the heroine. Still sexist, but in a completely different way. Shojo's generally worse on the females then it is on the males when it comes to being sexist. 

Ouren's stupid pretty boy is pretty much just Tamaki- and he's not really stupid, Just goofy. It relies heavily on comedy sI wouldn't take it seriously. 

[TouKen4Life3g]

Well I'll just say this, simply. I don't see this sexist at all. It will be when it's plain clear that one guy pretty much tell a woman to leave and they will submit easily as there's no self-righteous in them and they will remain that way to the end. Now, the sex appeal, well it can get annoying as to say that these characters are there to pleasure you. When targeting male audience, it's annoying to me to see the fan service and I don't understand why it is needed, though this is usual in Japan at least from what I have seen. I know it suppose to please the fans but why does it happen very often to the point you're telling me I'm at a free strip club. Granted not all do, but it seems hard to take it and it's actually embarrassing to read, watch, etc in public. Why not just tell a story? I don't mind fan service in any media, but don't do it often and give them identity.

[CloudMountainJuror]

As someone usually eager to be critical of this manga: I don't see how this was sexism. It wasn't played off as her going down because of a perverted jutsu. It was clearly played off as a "what the hell is that?" reaction which allowed a single punch to land. Which didn't come even close to defeating her, anyways.

Edited by zacrathedemon5, 25 June 2014 - 06:34 PM.

[questdrivencollie]

Since we're discussing a manga coming from a country where some men are at this moment shouting down female politicians, telling them to stay home and have babies and to go find a husband instead of trying to be active in government, I think the thread content is topical. Wether the OP comes back or not.

 

There are cultural differences that we all have to grapple with, whether we are reading from a progressive or conservative pov/country, or we are detecting cultural influences that are vastly different from our own.

 

I'm not being diplomatic about it. I think it's interesting to read Japanese manga that doesn't pander to international infuences, and then discuss it with readers from all over the world. It's not like reading Shakespeare or Austen or Poe, where the world in which they are writing is set in stone, and we can only look at it historically.

 

Social changes are still unfolding all over the world, equality for women is one of them. And Japan is one of those places where society is still changing from centuries of gender-specific roles to weighing equality with a down-sliding population. 

I wanted to bring something like this up, but you said it much better than I could have.

[Qia]

I don't know if this is true or not, but haven't there been characters where Naruto did the sexy no jutsu for the first time yet they didn't even flinch or were surprised enough to get punched in the face? I don't know if I would call what happened in this chapter sexist...but I can see why it might offend some women. Here we encounter a female villain who's actually so strong that she's practically godlike...yet she's stunned by such a cheap jutsu and gets punched in the face. 

Edited by Qia, 25 June 2014 - 07:17 PM.

[Iwantbuns]

I just read the manga for the heck of reading it... I don't try to squeeze it to give me pleasure, it's just the way it is.

 

...

Man that didn't sound right..

[TouKen4Life3g]

I don't know if this is true or not, but haven't there been characters where Naruto did the sexy no jutsu for the first time yet they didn't even flinch or were surprised enough to get punched in the face? I don't know if I would call what happened in this chapter sexist...but I can see why it might offend some women. Here we encounter a female villain who's actually so strong that she's practically godlike...yet she's stunned by such a cheap jutsu and gets punched in the face.  

The thing is she was way too ready for any opposing threat, key is threat, and this came out of nowhere to her. The attack is a win-win distraction at first attempt because you either have your opponent "Wow!!!! I'm in Heaven!!!" or "What the hell was that?!" Worth a shot but again, first and only try. It won't work again. Why not do one element of surprise if you have nothing left in which this chapter pretty much say they're losing options. Now with Sasuke out, the option is nothing...or so Naruto would think.

I just read the manga for the heck of reading it... I don't try to squeeze it to give me pleasure, it's just the way it is.
 
...
Man that didn't sound right..

You almost sound like you're reading a series with so many fanservices to please you. Lol.

Edited by NaruSaku4Life3g, 25 June 2014 - 07:22 PM.

[Gojira]

The last thing I care about in a foreign comic about ninjas, talking animals and monsters n kitten is whether or not the women have as many good parts as the men....that also didn't sound right.

[vblm]

Sexism is pretty bad in manga (and American comics for thay matter), but this is a terrible example. Naruto has some of the best female characters I've seen in a shonen (though they all get thrown under a bus when things get interesting, which is pretty infuriating, and in the scene you're complaining about, Kaguya didn't even go down. She just had a pook on her face like "What the hell is this?"

[Nate River]

Well I'll just say this, simply. I don't see this sexist at all. It will be when it's plain clear that one guy pretty much tell a woman to leave and they will submit easily as there's no self-righteous in them and they will remain that way to the end. Now, the sex appeal, well it can get annoying as to say that these characters are there to pleasure you. When targeting male audience, it's annoying to me to see the fan service and I don't understand why it is needed, though this is usual in Japan at least from what I have seen. I know it suppose to please the fans but why does it happen very often to the point you're telling me I'm at a free strip club. Granted not all do, but it seems hard to take it and it's actually embarrassing to read, watch, etc in public. Why not just tell a story? I don't mind fan service in any media, but don't do it often and give them identity.

I do, in a sense, find Kaguya offensive, but not as to gender bias. I find her offensive to the very concept of "character." There is a drawing on the page that has been given the name "kaguya," but a character she is not. Random fodder ninja have displayed more character.

I expect them, on some level, to have a traits. A personality (even if it's a stone face one), motivations, desires, direction. She has none of these things. Even Juugo has something She kinda has a poorly defined motivation that was defined by someone else, but it makes no damn sense. She cried, but we don't know her relationship with her sons other than they sealed her, so who knows if that's reasonable or not.

It's hard to call her sexist on these things because there is there no actual "character" there. The sexist part about her, to which I'd agree, is that her existence was mostly just the woman who gave birth to a great man. Her portrayal has changed since she is her now, but she's so devoid of anything resembling a character that I have a hard time calling her crying sexist but I have no idea why she even cares. It's more vapid than anything because it rests on the very generic they are her kids and nothing more.

As far as the sexy-no-jutsu, well, he used the male and female versions and everyone to the letter has had the same reaction. To me, it's hard to call it sexist when everyone is always turned on by it. I see no disparate treatment, it's just dumb.

[Qia]

The thing is she was way too ready for any opposing threat, key is threat, and this came out of nowhere to her. The attack is a win-win distraction at first attempt because you either have your opponent "Wow!!!! I'm in Heaven!!!" or "What the hell was that?!" Worth a shot but again, first and only try. It won't work again. Why not do one element of surprise if you have nothing left in which this chapter pretty much say they're losing options. Now with Sasuke out, the option is nothing...or so Naruto would think.

 

The thing is...why was she surprised by that so much to get punched in the first place? Even if it came out of no where, with the way she was introduced, it just feels out of place for her to be THAT distracted by that jutsu for me (plus they managed to land a hit on her so quickly into the battle).  Like I said...I'm sure there have been strong characters that didn't even flinch when it was used on them for the first time. So, because of that, it's hard for me to take her seriously now, you know? I mean, now that I think about it, she already fits that "Evil Queen" stereotype that's often depicted in the media, and this just makes it worse for me. To see her being hit so easily despite her godlike status....by a jutsu like that...I can't even find that funny.

Edited by Qia, 25 June 2014 - 07:47 PM.