54 replies to this topic

[catsi563]

to simplify we cannot not do anything, but at the same time we have to measure our response very carefully.

Egypt is too important to the stability and security of the region to ignore. and that means both economically, and politically and militarilly.

A stable Egypt that is an ally and dedicated to fighting hardliners and extremists is a stabilizing influence in the region and one that can counteract any anti-Israeli sentiments as well as act as a deterrent to Iran.

But an unstable one that falls to infighting and extremist leaders could lead to another Yom Kippur war and ignite a firestorm that could consume the area.

But our reputation thanks to the Iraq and Afghanistan fiascos is so badly damaged that any direct intervention would be seen as more imperialism by extremists and would threaten the stability and legitmacy of any goverment that did get elected in the wake of Mubaraks departure.

Its a fine fine line we have to walk. Best we can do is exactly what President Obamas done so far. openly support the peaceful change of government while prasiing Egypt as an entity and allie and friend. keep up a subtle pressure that makes Mubarak understand that his best option is to step down, and/or give a hint to the military that if they step up and remove him from power, that the US will support it as long as its peacefull.

[Smiter]

The sad thing is there are a LOT of people (mainly Americans/mostly Republican Americans) who think like Hopestar. If you read some of the comments associated with the articles I posted it would chill your soul at how cold, heartless, and most especially racist some of the people out there are toward Egypt and its people.

Yeah, unfortunately, there is a lot of that attitude around and it's not just limited to situations like Egypt. Only yesterday, I was reading a local news story about thieves who had stripped a church hall roof of its copper, causing £10,000 worth of damage. There were quite a few comments from readers that just ignored the crime and instead mocked the religion.

to simplify we cannot not do anything, but at the same time we have to measure our response very carefully.

Egypt is too important to the stability and security of the region to ignore. and that means both economically, and politically and militarilly.

A stable Egypt that is an ally and dedicated to fighting hardliners and extremists is a stabilizing influence in the region and one that can counteract any anti-Israeli sentiments as well as act as a deterrent to Iran.

But an unstable one that falls to infighting and extremist leaders could lead to another Yom Kippur war and ignite a firestorm that could consume the area.

But our reputation thanks to the Iraq and Afghanistan fiascos is so badly damaged that any direct intervention would be seen as more imperialism by extremists and would threaten the stability and legitmacy of any goverment that did get elected in the wake of Mubaraks departure.

Its a fine fine line we have to walk. Best we can do is exactly what President Obamas done so far. openly support the peaceful change of government while prasiing Egypt as an entity and allie and friend. keep up a subtle pressure that makes Mubarak understand that his best option is to step down, and/or give a hint to the military that if they step up and remove him from power, that the US will support it as long as its peacefull.

Those are very good points, catsi.

In addition, our military forces have already got too much on their plate, what with Iraq and Afghanistan.

I agree that if the whole thing goes that far, we can only hope that the Egyptian military - which seems to be neutral so far - decides to intervene and peacefully remove Mubarak from power. It'd be perfect if they could resolve the whole situation without the need for foreign intervention. Then they could have elections with international overseers (to ensure it's all fair) later this year.

[Hopestar]

The reason some of you are concern because our country (which they cannot avoid because we are or going broke) are investing in Eqypt because they have materials that we want like oil, jewelry, you name it for example. Which is stupid because some of that material are here or with our neighbor next door unless you are Japanese. Honestly can you afford to help them? Are you going to fly there and make an opinion. No you are going to stay home and continue what you are doing right now.

If you are American... REALLY MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS! The world are sick of Americans getting into their business and minding themselves. Hell we are wasting money to "stabilize" the middle east btw who has been crazy, bombing, & other sorts of manics for centuries. Mostly you can thank your European ancestors for providing them the Jihad idea. Think about it your govt are spending more time to police the world but not looking for its citizens. See the unemployment rates, poor immigration laws, & I spend all day talking about these issues. I believe America doesn't look out for its own and it shows...

If you are European (especially British)... YOU ARE IN NO BETTER POSITION EITHER! Have the Egyptians asked for your help? No! History should have taught you of interfering with foreign lives. Besides although it has been several decades those people and the Muslim world are still scarred by the Crusade age. Hell they still talk about it making sure that they don't forget while you sweep it under the rug.

You don't like when foreigners enter your nations issues so why must you do so for them. They'll fix themselves in their own right! So let those people be and deal with it. We don't like how North Korea & China treats its folks but did any country send massive hard or soft power army to interfere, no! The same will go with Egypt and the developed world again has better and more personal issues it needs to resolve than worrying about a nation that may go into civil war. You don't like but no one interfere with your country's civil issues so why should you? I rather have my soldiers die for a meaningful cause (like WWII) than this bullsh** conflict (Vietnam to no Current warfare)

[Strangelove]

The reason some of you are concern because our country (which they cannot avoid because we are or going broke) are investing in Eqypt because they have materials that we want like oil, jewelry, you name it for example. Which is stupid because some of that material are here or with our neighbor next door unless you are Japanese. Honestly can you afford to help them? Are you going to fly there and make an opinion. No you are going to stay home and continue what you are doing right now.

If you are American... REALLY MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS! The world are sick of Americans getting into their business and minding themselves. Hell we are wasting money to "stabilize" the middle east btw who has been crazy, bombing, & other sorts of manics for centuries. Mostly you can thank your European ancestors for providing them the Jihad idea. Think about it your govt are spending more time to police the world but not looking for its citizens. See the unemployment rates, poor immigration laws, & I spend all day talking about these issues. I believe America doesn't look out for its own and it shows...

If you are European (especially British)... YOU ARE IN NO BETTER POSITION EITHER! Have the Egyptians asked for your help? No! History should have taught you of interfering with foreign lives. Besides although it has been several decades those people and the Muslim world are still scarred by the Crusade age. Hell they still talk about it making sure that they don't forget while you sweep it under the rug.

You don't like when foreigners enter your nations issues so why must you do so for them. They'll fix themselves in their own right! So let those people be and deal with it. We don't like how North Korea & China treats its folks but did any country send massive hard or soft power army to interfere, no! The same will go with Egypt and the developed world again has better and more personal issues it needs to resolve than worrying about a nation that may go into civil war. You don't like but no one interfere with your country's civil issues so why should you? I rather have my soldiers die for a meaningful cause (like WWII) than this bullsh** conflict (Vietnam to no Current warfare)

Uhmm to put it simply.

America should mind its own business. The problem is, Americans want the government to be mindful of them, but our government has been taken over by neocons who have adopted the Wilsonian idea of making the world safe for democracy. Even when it always comes back to bite the U.S in the butt, and Americans are the ones who suffer the most for it. It has become a nation of lost generations, unable to compete with the Chinese in industry.

If only we have followed the simple phrase. "Peace, commerce, and honest friendship with all nations, entangling alliances with none." But doing so will require the United States to leave the United Nations.

Edited by Strangelove, 04 February 2011 - 02:23 AM.

[Nate River]

you are European (especially British)... YOU ARE IN NO BETTER POSITION EITHER! Have the Egyptians asked for your help? No! History should have taught you of interfering with foreign lives. Besides although it has been several decades those people and the Muslim world are still scarred by the Crusade age. Hell they still talk about it making sure that they don't forget while you sweep it under the rug.

A few decades? Try a few centuries.

[Hopestar]

Thanks Nate

That's what I mean to say but it was a typo.

[Nate River]

Thanks Nate

That's what I mean to say but it was a typo.

Sure thing.

You are also omitting centuries of Ottoman rule in that region. Many of the political boundaries that exist now came about when the Ottoman Empire collapsed after WWI.

[Sakura Blossoms]

This excerpt from an article just made me shake my head in disbelief:

Various proposals for a post-Mubarak transition floated by the Americans, the regime and the protesters share some common ground, but with one elephant-sized difference: The protesters say nothing can be done before Mubarak leaves.

The 82-year-old president insists he will serve out the remaining seven months of his term to ensure a stable process. "You don't understand the Egyptian culture and what would happen if I step down now," Mubarak said he told President Barack Obama. He warned in an interview with ABC News that chaos would ensue.

Is this man that much of an idiot? Has he not looked out a window in the last few days? 'Chaos' has been trying to beat down his door, and kick his butt out by the hundreds of thousands.

[Codus N]

This actually makes Soeharto look better in comparison. Hell, if I had to choose from all the dictators of the world, I would choose him as a better person because he at least had the balls to admit his mistakes.

[Nate River]

This excerpt from an article just made me shake my head in disbelief:


Is this man that much of an idiot? Has he not looked out a window in the last few days? 'Chaos' has been trying to beat down his door, and kick his butt out by the hundreds of thousands.

No, he's not an idiot. He's a dictator who doesn't want to leave.

[Nick Soapdish]

Sure thing.

You are also omitting centuries of Ottoman rule in that region. Many of the political boundaries that exist now came about when the Ottoman Empire collapsed after WWI.

So are you attributing the political boundaries to the Ottomans or to the European powers that took over those territories after the Ottomans fell? Because Europe (mostly Britain) redrew the boundaries once they took control. Egypt had already been redrawn by Britain. You can still credit the boundary between Iran and Iraq to the Ottomans and the current boundaries of Turkey and anybody else, but that's about it.

No, he's not an idiot. He's a dictator who doesn't want to leave.

I think that he might be both. He seems to be politically tone-deaf. Now that the military isn't on his side, further delays aren't likely to bode well for him, his fortune (estimated at $40 - 70 billion) or his family. If he drags this out, he may be leaving power like Ceauşescu (yes, I had to look up the spelling).

[Nate River]

So are you attributing the political boundaries to the Ottomans or to the European powers that took over those territories after the Ottomans fell? Because Europe (mostly Britain) redrew the boundaries once they took control. Egypt had already been redrawn by Britain. You can still credit the boundary between Iran and Iraq to the Ottomans and the current boundaries of Turkey and anybody else, but that's about it.

I really wasn't asserting either. However, I'm fully aware that it was the European's carving up of the area once controlled by the Ottoman's in the aftermath of WW1 when the Empire finally died. I'd have to go back and look at how much, but the carving up of old Ottoman land was one of the "spoils" of that war. They were a dying empire well before then, that war just finished them off. I wasn't attempting to prove any point.

I think that he might be both. He seems to be politically tone-deaf. Now that the military isn't on his side, further delays aren't likely to bode well for him, his fortune (estimated at $40 - 70 billion) or his family. If he drags this out, he may be leaving power like Ceauşescu (yes, I had to look up the spelling).

I guess I should have said it this way: From an outsiders perspective the writing on the wall is clear and yeah, from that standpoint you could call him stupid. To me he's behaving like an dictator whose power is crumbling would be behaving. They don't generally walked an away and say "see ya" until they are made to do so. He's trying to hold on to what he has left, which, may do more personal harm than good to him, but I don't think is totally irrational.

[Nick Soapdish]

I really wasn't asserting either. However, I'm fully aware that it was the European's carving up of the area once controlled by the Ottoman's in the aftermath of WW1 when the Empire finally died. I'd have to go back and look at how much, but the carving up of old Ottoman land was one of the "spoils" of that war. They were a dying empire well before then, that war just finished them off. I wasn't attempting to prove any point.

Ok, I read a bit too much into the "when" as being a cause, not just coincidental in time.

Britain got Iraq and Trans-Jordan which turned eventually turned into Israel and Jordan. France got Lebanon. I think that just leaves Syria and Turkey itself.

[Codus N]

Mubarak FINALLY steps down.

Finally. Hopefully the Egyptians make sure the military doesn't get their grubby hands on the government.

[Kamina-Yoshi]

Now that the only legitimate broker of power in Egypt is gone, the rebels are free to pound each other into the dust and depose each others governments for the remainder of America's interest in the country.

[Sakura Blossoms]

Live video for however long it lasts. History in the making:

http://news.yahoo.co...749625/22309266

[Cupcake-chan]

Lol my mom texted me while I was at school saying that Egypt was free C:

[catsi563]

And the CIA is breathing a collective sigh of relief today.

[Kamina-Yoshi]

And the CIA is breathing a collective sigh of relief today.

Yeah, a few years of work paid off brilliantly. One of the last stable governments in the Middle East has fallen, [albeit is was an Islamic Republic and not a monarchy, which is usually America's favorite target] and it is now open for Americanization. Don't be surprised if the Suez starts giving benefits to American ships.

[Sakura Blossoms]

Here are some answers to what happens next in Egypt:

http://news.yahoo.co...eans-whats-next