42 replies to this topic

[jairolas]

I think they look great, Sakura wasn't enough for Naruto, she was just a shallow b*tch.

[Nar123]

If during the two years between 699 and The Last, Naruto and Hinata are shown to have grown to be closer friends. They form a deeper friendship and share laughs and experiences with each other. Naruto and Hinata are comfortable in each other's presence and really know each other, instead of the horribly pre-genin like dynamic between them. Naruto is confronted by Sakura on why he hasn't answered Hinata's confession to which he replies that he didn't feel the same way and didn't want to hurt her feelings. When asked if he still feels that way, he responds that he isn't really sure anymore. Hinata is planning to give Naruto a scarf and finally bring up her confession/the feelings she sill has for him, so she can get a definitive answer.

 

When she tries to give it to him initially, the village is attacked by the moon people (lel Kishi what have you done to your series) and Hanabi is kidnapped by Toneri during the fight. Distraught and worried, she momentarily forgets about confessing and personally asks Kakashi to be on the team to go after her. Naruto, wanting to help his now close friend in any way, asks to come along. During the mission Naruto and Hinata bond over Hyuugaa stuff while keeping on task with the mission, and Naruto is impressed by how much her ninja prowess has grown. Naruto begins to recognize that he may be feeling something other than friendship toward her, and urged by Sakura/Sai/whoever the kitten, gets teh mind to tell her. Hinata has been cornered alone and given an ultimatum, to switch her sister, unharmed, for her. When Naruto sees Hinata leave camp late at night, he follows her, only to find that she is meeting with Toneri. Hinata tells him not to try and stop her, and Toneri flies off somewhere or whatever they have him do, leaving Hanabi's unconcious body and a distraught and confused Naruto. 

 

Taking Hanabi back to the rest of the team, he informs them of what's happened. Initally, the rest of the team want to regropu back at Konoha, but Hanabi and Naruto stay adament that they should go after her (unlike Naruto's heavily uncharacteristic reaction to just give up as if her leaving terms weren't extremely shoddy coupled with the fact that they still need to defeat Toneri regardless). Hanabi, who has been paying attention to marks to tell where Toneri's hideout is, leads the way. They find and defeat Toneri, yada yada, and during the final blow, Naruto declared his feelings to her. Hinata responds the same, and they leave together with the rest of the team and have that moonlit kiss (dropping the scene with them running together, as it implies that they have always been together/have gone through the years by each other's side and that is not the nature of their relationship and is an out of place scene).

 

That's pretty much how any half decent writing could have done it. But this is SP 

 

Look, this is almost acceptable, a few changes here and there and this could really help the NH's case

 

Part of why the movie the last was so bad is because everything was awfully forced and Naruto's character was butchered, here on your text by at least acknowledging Hinata's confession from before he still stays quite in character.

[Illnevergiveup3]

I think they look great, Sakura wasn't enough for Naruto, she was just a shallow b*tch.

lol really? I guess that's why they had to make Hinata transform into Sakura-Chan 1.0.

[Nate River]

I will try to be unbias here:
 
Hinata was a underdeveloped character with untapped potential 
 
At first she was deemed useless by her father and then had her heir status passed on to Hanabi, this made her feel neglected and begin to watch Naruto's efforts more and more, she began to admire his "no give up attitude" and somehow she hoped she could be like that.
However then it was introduced by the official fillers to the last ( a canon movie) that Hanabi actually cared for her sister and wanted to be like her, I mean if she had her sister support why would she feel so neglected, then?

There certainly is a story there and potentially a very good and lengthy one, but it just didn't matter because nothing that happened within it had any bearing on the core plot.

I don't blame Kishimoto for not going there. It could develop the characters, but without having a strong tie in to the major plot it just wastes time.
 

This alone shows how Hinata's character backstory was changed and meddled with for reasons of "Hinata worshipping", at the beginning she was estabilished as the loser of her clan and now somehow we are supposed to believe she was looked upon?

I don't know if it was for Hinata worship. Would it not be an obvious place to go with a filler that wouldn't muck up a still-developing time-line? I think a case can be made that they may have eventually entered that territory, but I am not, without evidence, willing to assume it this early on and something that seems to be of minimal consequence. It's not even a contradiction.

I admit, I have always had a hard time envisioning her being a ninja. Why does she do it? It seems a poor and unhappy fit given her timid personality. That she is one could itself be a sign of weakness (she does it because she supposed to and lacks the courage to tell those pushing her to screw off). I consider this untapped to. Of all characters in the Rookie Nine, I would want to know this from her the most just because it's hard to imagine someone so timid wanting to be involved in a profession that does what ninja do. It just seems like something she'd hate doing.
 

It is given to us too that Hinata's initial goal is to follow Naruto's nindo and raise above her "loser status" in the clan, in part 2 she was flanderized into a blabbering Naruto worshipper whose only drive is to protect Naruto to be with him, a simple minded character following a simple minded love (Junko's words)

She was flanderized, I'll give you that. The worst mistake (regardless of the ending) in her treatment is never letting her do anything outside of Naruto's character. All her interactions (minor as they are) are filtered through this and are done to such an extent that I cannot think of a single significant interaction with another character that is not about Naruto.

In terms of untapped potential, this would be it. There is zero development outside of this. Hell, there is zero development within this context either (post-Chunnin exams anyway).

I know his handlers have claimed this was the intent all along, but her handling contradicts that so badly. If that had been the goal I cannot, understand why she has no meaningful interactions during her Team's arc prior to Pein. Why not have them talk and interact about with Naruto and others about something other than her rush. Hell, lay down the foundation for a strong friendship. It would be great as you could halt it there and be done with it or develop it further with a more solid foundation. It would have developed her and place in a fairly flexible position as it pertains to future use.

It's so baffling and can really only be explained through rank incompetence or that they are lying about having been committed to that (my personal belief). Moreover, given when the last began, why on earth isn't the remaining time being used to fill this stuff in?

The absolute worst part of all this is that so much of the needed development to sell this to non-shippers is just assumed.
 

So in the end I'd say, given us how Hinata was presented at the beginning, that her behavior in the last is just a flanderized piece of her original character  with no depth. far from the untapped potential she represented at the beginning

I think she was originally designed with a limited role (like many of his characters) who would fade back into the background when done (which is pretty much what happened). I think she got what she did later on because she became far more popular than expected.
 

If she was somehow a orphan ( like Naruto) and he was literally her only light, with development in their relationship she would be more accepable, because then her behavoir would actually be understandable, it would still be unhealthy? Yes, but understandable given the circunstances of her life.
 
But thanks to Hinata's backstory changes we can only see that her character wasn't meant to become what she became, instead its clear she was tailored for this role due to popularity

Her backstory is easier to swallow than Naruto's. Naruto's back story is a complete mess when it comes to consistency.

[tricksie]

don't repost NH pic please

[rocci]

@nateriver
Hinata is pairing fodder.

[Nar123]

There certainly is a story there and potentially a very good and lengthy one, but it just didn't matter because nothing that happened within it had any bearing on the core plot.

I don't blame Kishimoto for not going there. It could develop the characters, but without having a strong tie in to the major plot it just wastes time.
 
 

 

It's my belief that strong side characters were part of why Naruto part 1 was so good, so I just see every side character that didn't develop as wasted potential specially when there had good plots to back them up, for example it's truly a shame what happened to Rock Lee after the time skip, he was basically ignored every time

 

Kishi's main mistake in the end was making part 2 all about Sasuke, he was pratically the one that drove the story 

 

 

I don't know if it was for Hinata worship. Would it not be an obvious place to go with a filler that wouldn't muck up a still-developing time-line? I think a case can be made that they may have eventually entered that territory, but I am not, without evidence, willing to assume it this early on and something that seems to be of minimal consequence. It's not even a contradiction.

 

 

I understand your point but I retain my POV that it was Hinata worship that affected that filler and the change in her backstory for a few reasons

-SP was the one responsible for the filler and they're known for their Hinata worshipping

-Hinata, the black sheep of her clan, out of nowhere is not only idolized by Hanabi and Hiashi without any clear reason thus making the change feel aboslutely forced.

 

In the end though I think this change in her backstory just hurt her character if we not look in a superficial point of view

 

 

I admit, I have always had a hard time envisioning her being a ninja. Why does she do it? It seems a poor and unhappy fit given her timid personality. That she is one could itself be a sign of weakness (she does it because she supposed to and lacks the courage to tell those pushing her to screw off). I consider this untapped to. Of all characters in the Rookie Nine, I would want to know this from her the most just because it's hard to imagine someone so timid wanting to be involved in a profession that does what ninja do. It just seems like something she'd hate doing.

 

 

This is interesting, indeed I always felt Hinata didn't had that much of a drive as a ninja besides the usual "Naruto- kun"

Man, it would be really easy to develop her in this regard using something like a tournament arc or a war arc ( I read a fanfic in which the author did it in only one fight during his war arc )  but Kishi chose to rectify her role as pairing fodder instead  

 

 

 

She was flanderized, I'll give you that. The worst mistake (regardless of the ending) in her treatment is never letting her do anything outside of Naruto's character. All her interactions (minor as they are) are filtered through this and are done to such an extent that I cannot think of a single significant interaction with another character that is not about Naruto. 

In terms of untapped potential, this would be it. There is zero development outside of this. Hell, there is zero development within this context either (post-Chunnin exams anyway). I know his handlers have claimed this was the intent all along, but her handling contradicts that so badly. If that had been the goal I cannot, understand why she has no meaningful interactions during her Team's arc prior to Pein. Why not have them talk and interact about with Naruto and others about something other than her rush. Hell, lay down the foundation for a strong friendship. It would be great as you could halt it there and be done with it or develop it further with a more solid foundation. It would have developed her and place in a fairly flexible position as it pertains to future use. It's so baffling and can really only be explained through rank incompetence or that they are lying about having been committed to that (my personal belief). Moreover, given when the last began, why on earth isn't the remaining time being used to fill this stuff in? The absolute worst part of all this is that so much of the needed development to sell this to non-shippers is just assumed

 

Couldn't agree more, really

 

 

I think she was originally designed with a limited role (like many of his characters) who would fade back into the background when done (which is pretty much what happened). I think she got what she did later on because she became far more popular than expected.
 

 

Yeah, this is a point to consider however it's still kishi's failure in not being able to develop her character in a suitable manner in the end

It's also his fault that characters like Sakura got a lot of unrequited hate, he has such a complete obliviousness as to why she is hated that he actually thought that by drawing Sakura in a more beautiful manner that the hate would diminish

 

 

 

Her backstory is easier to swallow than Naruto's. Naruto's back story is a complete mess when it comes to consistency.

 

 

The problem with her backstory is that it was changed and right now it borders on making no sense with things like 

" Why would the heir to one of the most powerful and prominent clans of the leaf village be bullied because of her eyes? Eyes that contain power far above to those of a normal ninja might I add "

 

It makes 0 sense, it's completely shoehorned in a piss poor attempt for the watcher to have some kind of guilty about the whole scene, it shouldn't work opn anyone who isn't blinded by their bias

 

However I agree witho you Naruto's backstory is a mess when it comes to consistency

Edited by Nar123, 21 April 2015 - 12:05 AM.

[ThroughWithLove]

Incidentally, it was Sakura who was originally bullied. Guess the only way to make NaruHina make any sense whatsoever is turn Hinata into Sakura.

[Aizen-Sama]

Incidentally, it was Sakura who was originally bullied. Guess the only way to make NaruHina make any sense whatsoever is turn Hinata into Sakura.

 

I think people think Hinata is more of a victim because we've seen more of her being an underdog.  Neji outright bullying her and her not standing a chance against Pain.  She's even ignored by the boy she loves.

All this changed of course with the ending, she is now Hyuuga "princess" and is the wife of said boy.  Fans are expected to be happy for her but Hinata getting the D wasn't my #1 hope and wish for her character.  Especially when it sacrificed the heroine's own happiness along with the hero's.

[narusaku256]

 
I think people think Hinata is more of a victim because we've seen more of her being an underdog.  Neji outright bullying her and her not standing a chance against Pain.  She's even ignored by the boy she loves.
All this changed of course with the ending, she is now Hyuuga "princess" and is the wife of said boy.  Fans are expected to be happy for her but Hinata getting the D wasn't my #1 hope and wish for her character.  Especially when it sacrificed the heroine's own happiness along with the hero's.

She called it upon herself. Sure the way she was treated was wrong. The way her father thought of her was wrong. And nothing wrong that she found inspiration to get better each day from Naruto. But it stops at that. I.N.S.P.I.R.A.T.I.O.N. She turned Naruto into an object!

Hinata and Naruto are no different when it comes to being an underdog. Both of them were looked upon as useless and good for nothing. But Naruto instead of succumbing to it, fought for it, trained harder than anyone out there and became what he was. He knew struggle. He had it in him to change the way other people looked at him! But Hinata...she just..gave up and became Naruto centric. Naruto this...Naruto that...If she really would have cared for Naruto she'd have promised to become stronger by herself and not by clinging onto someone. Nothing wrong in getting inspiration. Everyone needs that. But that same inspiration becomes a problem when it gets transformed into obsession.

And cmmon! I guess full grown adults understand the difference between inspiration and love. Hinata didn't even know that!!!! If she really knew and cared for Naruto....she'd have let go of him since she knew how much Naruto loved Sakura. But....NO

The way Hinata was treated and looked upon...not her fault. I give her that. But how she ended up....definitely hers! Having someone like Naruto as an inspiration and still turning out the way she did.....a disgrace to Naruto's impression. Look at Konohamaru! That guy freaking damaged someone as good as Pain with a Rasengan holding Naruto as an inspiration. This is how it should have worked for her. Konohamaru doesn't have an obsession towards Naruto. How she was at the beginning....I give her that...but how she turned out to be...definitely hers. Now I really know....what her sister and the so called 'Hyuuga queen' means to her....

[HalfDemonInuyasha]

She called it upon herself. Sure the way she was treated was wrong. The way her father thought of her was wrong. And nothing wrong that she found inspiration to get better each day from Naruto. But it stops at that. I.N.S.P.I.R.A.T.I.O.N. She turned Naruto into an object!

Hinata and Naruto are no different when it comes to being an underdog. Both of them were looked upon as useless and good for nothing. But Naruto instead of succumbing to it, fought for it, trained harder than anyone out there and became what he was. He knew struggle. He had it in him to change the way other people looked at him! But Hinata...she just..gave up and became Naruto centric. Naruto this...Naruto that...If she really would have cared for Naruto she'd have promised to become stronger by herself and not by clinging onto someone. Nothing wrong in getting inspiration. Everyone needs that. But that same inspiration becomes a problem when it gets transformed into obsession.

And cmmon! I guess full grown adults understand the difference between inspiration and love. Hinata didn't even know that!!!! If she really knew and cared for Naruto....she'd have let go of him since she knew how much Naruto loved Sakura. But....NO

The way Hinata was treated and looked upon...not her fault. I give her that. But how she ended up....definitely hers! Having someone like Naruto as an inspiration and still turning out the way she did.....a disgrace to Naruto's impression. Look at Konohamaru! That guy freaking damaged someone as good as Pain with a Rasengan holding Naruto as an inspiration. This is how it should have worked for her. Konohamaru doesn't have an obsession towards Naruto. How she was at the beginning....I give her that...but how she turned out to be...definitely hers. Now I really know....what her sister and the so called 'Hyuuga queen' means to her....

We also can't forget that Hinata said in her own mind that she would STOP chasing Naruto after the war was over. That gets followed up later with the now-(in)famous tripping scene which, in ways, also corresponds with her giving up. Sure, she had little Kurama chakra left, but she just lies down and gives up and, as usual, only quietly "supporting" Naruto from a distance whereas Sakura, despite having no Kurama chakra left, fights her hardest to reach Naruto to keep him alive and doing her damndest to ensure her voice reached him, even falling back on older, non-chakra medical practices to save his life, like manually keeping his heart beating with her own hand and using CPR and such, Unlike Hinata, Sakura was truly taking Naruto's lessons to heart, like never giving up.

Most of the times Naruto and Hinata have been in the same area of a fight, Hinata just constantly proves how little faith she truly has in him. Of course, (extremist) NH fans try to say "Oh, but anyone would be worried for the one they love in a fight!". Yes, I can give them that in general, however, that reasoning gets completely nullified by Hinata herself by her claiming she "believes in him". You can't say Hinata loves and believes in Naruto if she worries that he's seriously injured from a simple kick like that Naruto took from "Tobi", or feeling that she needs she jump into the middle of a fight against an opponent even the one she supposedly "believes in" was having extreme difficulty with, and so on. Those same fans also try to use Sakura not doing what Hinata did as "proof" that she doesn't love him that way, however, one can just as easily say that her not doing so was a combination of her being realistic in that she knows she would die if she fought against Pein, of her having faith that Naruto would win in the end, and of her knowing, due to her knowing Naruto much better, that if she were to throw away her life senselessly for his sake like that, Naruto would only be upset, not just at her death, but at also for such a reason (he wouldn't want anyone dying for his sake like that), so she was doing what he would want her to do what she could with what abilities she had and that was making sure the villagers and other shinobi/kunoichi would survive thanks to her medical training.

[narusaku256]

We also can't forget that Hinata said in her own mind that she would STOP chasing Naruto after the war was over. That gets followed up later with the now-(in)famous tripping scene which, in ways, also corresponds with her giving up. Sure, she had little Kurama chakra left, but she just lies down and gives up and, as usual, only quietly "supporting" Naruto from a distance whereas Sakura, despite having no Kurama chakra left, fights her hardest to reach Naruto to keep him alive and doing her damndest to ensure her voice reached him, even falling back on older, non-chakra medical practices to save his life, like manually keeping his heart beating with her own hand and using CPR and such, Unlike Hinata, Sakura was truly taking Naruto's lessons to heart, like never giving up.

Most of the times Naruto and Hinata have been in the same area of a fight, Hinata just constantly proves how little faith she truly has in him. Of course, (extremist) NH fans try to say "Oh, but anyone would be worried for the one they love in a fight!". Yes, I can give them that in general, however, that reasoning gets completely nullified by Hinata herself by her claiming she "believes in him". You can't say Hinata loves and believes in Naruto if she worries that he's seriously injured from a simple kick like that Naruto took from "Tobi", or feeling that she needs she jump into the middle of a fight against an opponent even the one she supposedly "believes in" was having extreme difficulty with, and so on. Those same fans also try to use Sakura not doing what Hinata did as "proof" that she doesn't love him that way, however, one can just as easily say that her not doing so was a combination of her being realistic in that she knows she would die if she fought against Pein, of her having faith that Naruto would win in the end, and of her knowing, due to her knowing Naruto much better, that if she were to throw away her life senselessly for his sake like that, Naruto would only be upset, not just at her death, but at also for such a reason (he wouldn't want anyone dying for his sake like that), so she was doing what he would want her to do what she could with what abilities she had and that was making sure the villagers and other shinobi/kunoichi would survive thanks to her medical training.

This....this post is...GOLDEN

[Pink Chidori]

I am disappointed by the developments in The Last with Hinata and Naruto.

NH

I wanted to see them be closer as friends, and shown to be in a natural setting together without romantic feelings blocking the road for something further.

 

Instead of showing them to have become closer friends after the war, Hinata is instead reduced to going back to the shy girl who can't even speak to Naruto really. It was so bad, and I say this as someone who is a big fan of Hinata. It makes me annoyed to see so many NH support that tripe and act like nothing is wrong with the way things played out.

 

Like, don't you realize SP just shat all over the interpretation of NH that had been so long defended? And if The Last is canon, well there you go. Naruto did not even have romantic feelings for Hinata until The Last, he didn't even know that she meant romantic, just "love you like one loves food." But it's like this stuff is defended because the pairing became canon. It's ridiculous. Hinata was reduced to pairing fodder, when I always thought she had potential to be one of Naruto's truer friends.

 

I think both Kishi and SP missed a huge opportunity there, and simply had her worry about giving him some stupid scarf, when she should've been acting more like a friend to him, getting to know him as a person better, more than just what she'd admired from afar, but have them interact in a normal setting as well so that they could have both eventually paved the way to something more in a natural way. That would have been much more preferred. But instead, it's back to the same old thing again.

 

Hinata can't approach him because she's too stuck on her romantic feelings to even talk to him normally, and Naruto is hanging out with Sakura and Ino, and it's obvious neither one of them had been hanging out much. I see NH saying it was said Naruto and Hinata hung out a lot more during the time skip, but to me, that doesn't mean anything. Naruto and Hinata never hung out until The Last, so "a lot more" to me, just says "Naruto and Hinata finally hung out with each other at some point." But the events in the movie sure as heck did not reflect that at all.

Edited by Pink Chidori, 26 July 2015 - 04:00 AM.

[rocci]

@pink chidori
The problem with nh is their lack of development from naruto especially.
IMO, they can goes straight up without being close friend.
But the way they use to make naruto love Hinata is awful(genjutsu).

Oh and naruto love sakura because rivalry, that's simply bad.

[Pink Chidori]

@pink chidori
The problem with nh is their lack of development from naruto especially.
IMO, they can goes straight up without being close friend.
But the way they use to make naruto love Hinata is awful(genjutsu).

Oh and naruto love sakura because rivalry, that's simply bad.

I agree that romantically on Naruto's end, the development did not happen as I'd once thought. As someone who ships the Big 3, I had defended that Naruto was growing affection for Hinata romantically over time. But when 693 came out, and Naruto said he hadn't found anyone yet, that completely threw that whole thought process down the tubes for me. I did not like that Kishi made it that Naruto did not understand Hinata meant romantic love during her confession. I mean, maybe I'm just forcing my own preferences, but I always did feel like Naruto and Hinata could have been both romantic and friends because I think they would naturally get along with each other and I figured Naruto would want to hang out with someone like Hinata, who has been there for him in big ways on several occasions (Proud Failure Speech, 437 and 615). But it looked like they did not actually really hang out even after everything, and then the way it was just made that Naruto realizes everything because "genjutsu" was stupid. I felt like Naruto did not need a genjutsu, it was all so contrived.

[James S Cassidy]

Hinata's actions would be understandable if Hinata was a stalker.

Oh wait.

She is. My bad.

Did someone say.....STALKING?!!!

[catsi563]

Id only need to correct you on one thing Pink

 

namely that 437 615 and the Prroud failure speech were not as big moments for Hinata as a character as people think

 

they could have been mind you but the fact is that Hinata is so irrelevant as a character that those big 3 moments she could easily be taken out of them and be replaced with another character to the same or greater emotional effect.

 

the simple fact is the way those moments were resolved  left hInata basicly completely irrelevant

[rocci]

Id only need to correct you on one thing Pink
 
namely that 437 615 and the Prroud failure speech were not as big moments for Hinata as a character as people think
 
they could have been mind you but the fact is that Hinata is so irrelevant as a character that those big 3 moments she could easily be taken out of them and be replaced with another character to the same or greater emotional effect.
 
the simple fact is the way those moments were resolved  left hInata basicly completely irrelevant

One of the reason why there are no neo team Hinata.
You know, no neo Hinata, neo kiba, and neo shino.

[Pink Chidori]

Id only need to correct you on one thing Pink

 

namely that 437 615 and the Prroud failure speech were not as big moments for Hinata as a character as people think

 

they could have been mind you but the fact is that Hinata is so irrelevant as a character that those big 3 moments she could easily be taken out of them and be replaced with another character to the same or greater emotional effect.

 

the simple fact is the way those moments were resolved  left hInata basicly completely irrelevant

Ah, I simply meant that from what I had taken from those scenes, I believed that they would become the building blocks for Naruto and Hinata becoming very good friends and understanding each other on a deeper level. Naruto saw Hinata as a good comrade, like the rest of the Konoha 12 after it all, but after 693, that's all she really was to him in the end as far as chapter showed us...at least until TL decided a genjutsu would be perfect for him to come to the conclusion he actually loved her. >___>

 

I didn't like this because I thought what Kishi had been writing before (at least before ch 693) was going to lead to my previous assumption, (good friendship and eventual opening for romantic feelings to bloom) but instead, it was same old same old, then bam, genjutsu to realize feelings. Boo.

Edited by Pink Chidori, 26 July 2015 - 05:54 AM.

[Radra]

We also can't forget that Hinata said in her own mind that she would STOP chasing Naruto after the war was over. That gets followed up later with the now-(in)famous tripping scene which, in ways, also corresponds with her giving up.

 

That did not mean she would literally stop chasing Naruto. That's not how I interpreted it at least. If I remember correctly, she also said she would be "right next to Naruto, holding his hand". So she actually meant that she will make a move on Naruto and be with Naruto once the war ends. Of course, it still took her two years to make that move according to the Last.

 

The tripping scene could also be a hint of her giving up but the problem I had with this logic is that Gaara pretty much put Naruto right in front of Sakura while Hinata had to run to Naruto. A very unfair comparison.

 

The moment that really helped us in my opinion was the cpr scene. I remember i had already given up on NS and the cpr scene started to give me some hope again.