70 replies to this topic

[Darth Krypt]

So lets say that the Uchiha clan really betrayed Konoha by being accomplices with Madara is true. The only people left alive to know the secret would be the 2 old crows. I guess they have been telling the truth about the Uchiha all along. This would be the key for Sasuke to turn back to good. He would know that his clan was really at fault, thus be freakishly confused and run away for awhile. But he will return at a crucial moment when Naruto is in danger. Well that's my prediction based on common patterns from different mangas and animes. Lets face it, the probability of Sasuke not turning good is low even though I would like that to happen.

Edited by Darth Krypt, 04 July 2011 - 02:44 PM.

[Strangelove]

So lets say that the Uchiha clan really betrayed Konoha by being accomplices with Madara is true. The only people left alive to know the secret would be the 2 old crows. I guess they have been telling the truth about the Uchiha all along. This would be the key for Sasuke to turn back to good. He would know that his clan was really at fault, thus be freakishly confused and run away for awhile. But he will return at a crucial moment when Naruto is in danger. Well that's my prediction based on common patterns from different mangas and animes. Lets face it, the probability of Sasuke not turning good is low even though I would like that to happen.

Or the opposite. He would believe the Uchiha's were oppressed, and for voicing they're opinions were slaughtered.

The 9 tails told Sasuke that his eyes were that of Uchiha Madara. Thus in an absolute, he has the same vision as Madara.

Edited by Strangelove, 04 July 2011 - 04:32 PM.

[Manara]

Theory translated from: http://themanara.blo...-com-morte.html

Sasuke's parents would have collaborated with the death of the parents of Naruto?

The day that changed the history of Konoha

Amidst the beautiful moments of reunion of a loving mother to her son, that she had not seen for sixteen years. Many revelations were made. Revelations that changed dramatically the way we saw, or what we knew about many things in Naruto. Among many revelations bombastic something very important was implied. But maybe we were too impacted to notice, or just do not take into account. Some even do not see anything there. Well, for me the whole thing is at least very suspicious.

The facts: Kushiha was telling for a more than surprised Naruto, that she was the former Kyuubi's Jinchuuriki. So Naruto is confused: if the Kyuubi attacked Konoha 16 years ago under the control of the "masked man", so how could it be inside of your mother? Then we have another bombshell revelation: esxiste a time when the seal attached to keep the Kyuubi Jinchuuriki is weakened and this moment is: At the time of the birth of cutest blond of Konoha child-birth.



Well, knowing this from personal experience (after all, Myth of the First Hokage's wife had also been one of the Kyuubi Jinchuuriki and almost lost control of it for their own deliveries.) the "good" people Konoha took precautions:



The time of delivery of Kushiha was pretty secretive. As shown in the following scene.



Kushiha end up talking more than she should (as seems to be typical of his character) just to Mikoto Uchiha, Sasuke's mother. And takes scolding by the third Hokage's wife.

In the next scene the nightmare begins. Naruto is kidnapped by the "masked man". Which Minato suspicious that is Madara, but not be sure. The Fourth Hokage defeated him. Leads Naruto and Kushiha to a safe place and is preparing to return to battle and protect the Konoha from Kyuubi attack. Not so far away, someone who looks after his younger brother, has bad feelings.



The next chapter starts with Itachi just wondering where their parents were:



Details: No one saw any Uchiha in front of war against the Kyuubi.


O que nos diz Madara/Tobi

Now, many chapters back (chapter 399), we have the one when Madara tells a lot of truths and, of course, also a lot of lies and half truths to Sasuke. He said the following about the Uchiha clã and his involvement in the attack of Kyuubi.

We learned that after the attack of Kyuubi, the suspicions fell on the Uchiha's clan, because "only the powers of the sharingan" could control the Kyuubi. And these then became segregated. The clan was under constant surveillance and even their land has been changed to a remote village.

With pride injured by the suspicions, the clan leaders began planning a coup. Having a Fugaku Uchiha as leader, exactly the Sasuke and Itachi father.




Natural disaster? Okay!


Fugaku in the middle.

But, wait. This "beautiful and heroic" story tell by Madara to a naive and shaken Sasuke, is full of flaws, that only a "naive and shaken and emo Sasuke" might not notice. Before the attack of the Kyuubi things were no longer any better between the Uchiha and the leaders of Konoha. Many were dissatisfied with their functions of "only" leaders of the Ambu.



Yes Here is proven without doubt that there was enough dissatisfaction before the Kyuubi attack.

Itachi and the tragic conclusion

These are the facts, but has a more important issue that makes me firmly believe that the Uchiha, including parents of Sasuke and Itachi, actively participated in the Kyuubi attack and therefore the tragic death of the parents of Naruto: Itachi's actions.

Itachi is painted in such a good and righteous man, that even being nice and peaceful, was capable of an act of coolness without size, in order to avoid a possible war. Killing his entire clan except her brother, because he loved him too much and perhaps because he believed in his goodness, just something he could not see (goodness) in his own clan, blinded by pride and power. His father was the leader of everything. And your mother? Itachi Surely, as a double spy who was, knew many things. Might even know that their parents were not the "worthy" people as Sasuke now think they were.

It is also said that one of his goals was to die without anyone knowing anything, especially Sasuke. His life in exchange for preserving the honor of the Uchiha (and maybe the shame he felt for them), especially in the eyes of his brother. He have wanted to keep the younger Uchiha away to the suffering that he faced: Having knowledge of the people who loved and even their parents were just terrorists killers .

At last. Remember when Naruto thinks, says, whatever... that he might be exactly the same position as Sasuke, just a misstep? This thesis makes this statement even more true. After all who had the parents killed in the first place was Naruto.

PS: Sorry for the bad English. ITranslate it a little hastily. Any questions just ask.

Edited by Manara, 04 July 2011 - 05:46 PM.

[Strangelove]

Itachi did what he did i believed because he already seen war...he did not wished for war. Yet why did he joined Akatsuki...it was probably to spy on Madara.

[ciardha]

Very good theory Manara. That's basically the conclusion I came to as well. And as for Mikoto's part and knowing the birthday- as you said Mikoto was the only one Kushina talked to, and Mikoto knew the baby was due very soon, it's in her question about the name. She would have seen Biwako pulling Kushina away and seen the expression on her face if not even overheard the words....

It's a terrible conclusion to come to, even moreso in the light that Kushina considered Mikoto a friend. But evidence points strongly to her. And Itachi slaughtered both his parents, not just his father, he would have know better than anyone how much both were involved in the coup. His first clue that something was wrong with his parents would have been the night the Kyuubi attacked, at that time he was too young to be brought into the plotting, but he would have heard afterward that no Uchiha were seen on the battlefield and heard the rumors that implicated the Uchiha clan because of that. Itachi grew up like his cousin (of some sort) Obito, loving Konoha. Obito died before Kyuubi attack, one wonders if he had any knowledge of the plotting already going on in his clan- I suspect not though, his clan would have seen his intensely pro Konoha attitude and made sure he was kept in the dark about their plans. No clan meetings for him. Itachi kept his feelings much more secret so he learned about the plotting for a second coup in his lifetime. Minato and Kushina's quick actions derailed the first coup attempt, order was quickly restored once the Kyuubi was sealed.

Pure speculation here:
The Kyuubi called the Uchiha a cursed clan and said Sasuke had an even more evil chakra than his, that he hadn't met anyone that evil a chakra since Madara. This was before Sasuke embraced hatred to the extreme that he has now. There's a hint, however there is something unnatural about Susanoo, this may be the curse the Kyuubi was talking about. Karin reacts to Susanoo as if it's unnatural. It could be the older son of the Rikudo Senin did something like what his father did to gain more power (finding and taking a demon into himself, but unlike his father he did it for dark means. It wasn't anywhere as powerful as the Juubi but it instead was more sinister- becoming a corrupting force in all future generation of Uchiha that became powerful enough to access it.

[Phantom_999]

It could be that WOULD make a very good story and it does make a lot of sense so I'll keep this one in mind

[HenryFlitzroy]

AAAAAAAAH, ''FacePalm'' .

I need to pay closer attention to the Manga, seriously, i totally read over the line: "Why did Mom and Dad have to go out now?'' even though i read that arc atleast 3 times.
This really seems like a very strong clue that at least a part of the Uchiha clan was working with Madara/against Konoha BEFORE the attack of the Kyuubi, wich is a VERY important detail that Sasuke does not know (After all this would reprioritze his revenge to Madara being the very first one on the list he would want to kill, because this means that Madara not only used the Uchiha, he is also directly responsible for what happened to them in his eyes).

I'm feeling so dumb right now for not having noticed that before, thanks for pointing it out.

[Darth Krypt]

Can someone tell me where was it said that the Uchiha wasn't at the Kyubi attack?

[Hak]

Can someone tell me where was it said that the Uchiha wasn't at the Kyubi attack?

It's mentioned by Madara in one of the pics posted before.

[Darth Krypt]

It's mentioned by Madara in one of the pics posted before.

In this thread? In that case no there wasn't. It just showed what the Uchiha was planning and them being suspected AFTER the Kyubi attack. No mention of what they were doing DURING. If there is a chapter/page it would be good to be posted here along with other evidence because that's a piece missing.

[Manara]

Pure speculation here:
The Kyuubi called the Uchiha a cursed clan and said Sasuke had an even more evil chakra than his, that he hadn't met anyone that evil a chakra since Madara. This was before Sasuke embraced hatred to the extreme that he has now. There's a hint, however there is something unnatural about Susanoo, this may be the curse the Kyuubi was talking about. Karin reacts to Susanoo as if it's unnatural. It could be the older son of the Rikudo Senin did something like what his father did to gain more power (finding and taking a demon into himself, but unlike his father he did it for dark means. It wasn't anywhere as powerful as the Juubi but it instead was more sinister- becoming a corrupting force in all future generation of Uchiha that became powerful enough to access it.

But this way, since Itachi had access to Susano's too. He also need be corrupted, not?
I think the opposite. The Susano's can be a weapon for good or for evil. See how the expression of Sasuke's Susano's is changing while he goes crazy, adapting it to the user's chakra.

I think that the Kyuubi meant by "even more evil than his chakra" was just that Sasuke had a powerful and threatening cosmos like madara had. (after all it seems to me, that the only Uchiha's that Kyuubi see were they both)

yes, I'm one of those who still believe in recovery. Or a redemption for Sasuke. XD

And I think the most important that we take about this story (which I believe will be confirmed.) Is precisely the reaction of our "antagonist" and especially our protagonist's when they learned of story.

This time who will have "reasons" (according to the Sasuke's logic of revenge) to kill him is Naruto. After all, his parents were killed with the help of his clan, first and foremost. And with the likely forgiveness of Naruto, any reason that Sasuke could have, is gone!

Does this time he will have some clarity, or the folly and wickedness would definitely take care of him for ever?

[Codus N]

Very good theory Manara. That's basically the conclusion I came to as well. And as for Mikoto's part and knowing the birthday- as you said Mikoto was the only one Kushina talked to, and Mikoto knew the baby was due very soon, it's in her question about the name. She would have seen Biwako pulling Kushina away and seen the expression on her face if not even overheard the words....

It's a terrible conclusion to come to, even moreso in the light that Kushina considered Mikoto a friend. But evidence points strongly to her. And Itachi slaughtered both his parents, not just his father, he would have know better than anyone how much both were involved in the coup. His first clue that something was wrong with his parents would have been the night the Kyuubi attacked, at that time he was too young to be brought into the plotting, but he would have heard afterward that no Uchiha were seen on the battlefield and heard the rumors that implicated the Uchiha clan because of that. Itachi grew up like his cousin (of some sort) Obito, loving Konoha. Obito died before Kyuubi attack, one wonders if he had any knowledge of the plotting already going on in his clan- I suspect not though, his clan would have seen his intensely pro Konoha attitude and made sure he was kept in the dark about their plans. No clan meetings for him. Itachi kept his feelings much more secret so he learned about the plotting for a second coup in his lifetime. Minato and Kushina's quick actions derailed the first coup attempt, order was quickly restored once the Kyuubi was sealed.

Pure speculation here:
The Kyuubi called the Uchiha a cursed clan and said Sasuke had an even more evil chakra than his, that he hadn't met anyone that evil a chakra since Madara. This was before Sasuke embraced hatred to the extreme that he has now. There's a hint, however there is something unnatural about Susanoo, this may be the curse the Kyuubi was talking about. Karin reacts to Susanoo as if it's unnatural. It could be the older son of the Rikudo Senin did something like what his father did to gain more power (finding and taking a demon into himself, but unlike his father he did it for dark means. It wasn't anywhere as powerful as the Juubi but it instead was more sinister- becoming a corrupting force in all future generation of Uchiha that became powerful enough to access it.

A little something to ponder about..... what if Minato and Kushina survived?? would the Uchiha still plan even though the first one failed?? I doubt it. Minato's Hiraishin is something you can't avoid even with Sharingan. Fugaku would know that much. What if Madara never attacked?? ain't no way in hell anyone in the Uchiha clan would do something so suicidal as laying a hand on Kushina. Or their son, for that matter. What if the Uchiha were still risking it to overthrow the current government (Minato & Kushina still alive and Madara did attack anyways)?? I believe Itachi would actually volunteer to wipe out the whole clan. But if Kushina finds out Itachi sort of brainwashed Sasuke (which was a bad idea, btw) that way, I think she would beat the hell outta him. After all, we know what she does to her own son.... I believe Kushina also considered Itachi like her own son. It would break her heart to see him do this but would promise to watch over Sasuke as a surrogate mother of sorts.

My two cents on Mikoto:

I do believe, in fact, that she was the one who betrayed Kushina. But she regretted her actions deeply and lived a life full of shame and guilt over her head until Itachi brought down judgement. It's very likely Mikoto herself committed Seppuku when Itachi was wiping out the whole clan. Rather than having her own son kill her, she'd rather kill herself for the crime she's done to Kushina.

[catsi563]

The real question to ask is not whether some part of the uchiha were working with Madara at the time. The real question is whether they were aware of the depths of Madaras hatred towards the uchiha clan for abandoning him as he perceived it.

I still believe that he used simultaneously the Uchiha to literally bring about their own downfall.

[ciardha]

The real question to ask is not whether some part of the uchiha were working with Madara at the time. The real question is whether they were aware of the depths of Madaras hatred towards the uchiha clan for abandoning him as he perceived it.

I still believe that he used simultaneously the Uchiha to literally bring about their own downfall.

I doubt if those generations knew (the Uchiha generation that had tossed Madara out- because they knew what kind of person he was, were long dead) out and Madara sure wouldn't have volunteered it. I think Itachi was the only one who figured it out- thus his complete contempt for how his clan was acting, not only the plotting, but being fooled by Madara....

[Phantom_999]

Well lets say this theory IS true where would the story go then? If anything it just gives Naruto reason to Kill Sasuke now. I know, I know He's not so petty He'll still see Sasuke as his best friend but doesn't change the fact that he lost his parents because of the Uchiha and that they are backstabbing ! That turn on their friends deserve to be buried INCLUDING Sasuke ( though this would explain where he gets it from , though Itachi is the sole exception to this ) so I'm wondering if it were true does it have any significance to the plot?

Edited by Phantom_999, 06 July 2011 - 01:52 AM.

[Strangelove]

Well lets say this theory IS true where would the story go then? If anything it just gives Naruto reason to Kill Sasuke now. I know, I know He's not so petty He'll still see Sasuke as his best friend but doesn't change the fact that he lost his parents because of the Uchiha and that they are backstabbing ! That turn on their friends deserve to be buried INCLUDING Sasuke ( though this would explain where he gets it from , though Itachi is the sole exception to this ) so I'm wondering if it were true does it have any significance to the plot?

Ehhh...that's not Naruto at all...remember Nagato killed 95% of Konoha's population as well as his own master...and even then he was still able to keep his hatred at bay, and not kill him.

[ciardha]

, though Itachi is the sole exception to this )

There was also Obito, who was even more self-sacrificing and even less influenced by the Uchiha way than Itachi. He's such an oddity for the clan though, I wonder if he was treated with contempt by them for not excelling and that made him embrace the values of Kakashi's disgraced father.

[Phantom_999]

Ehhh...that's not Naruto at all...remember Nagato killed 95% of Konoha's population as well as his own master...and even then he was still able to keep his hatred at bay, and not kill him.

LIKE I said I know Just saying it might come to that if nothing else I'm talking about the "if" scenario here IF the Uchiha's tipped off Madara of Kushina's birth My point is besides that thoughh it would never happen is What is significant to the plot IF the Uchiha DID tell Madara of Kushina's pregnancy although I remembered Madara stating "Itachi was the only one to discover that I am still alive" food for your thoughts

There was also Obito, who was even more self-sacrificing and even less influenced by the Uchiha way than Itachi. He's such an oddity for the clan though, I wonder if he was treated with contempt by them for not excelling and that made him embrace the values of Kakashi's disgraced father.

I don't refer back to the manga as much as I used to so Obito doesn't cross my mind sometimes Now I'm just going to play devil's advocate here for a minute: Maybe Obito was only selfless with Rin because he was IN LOVE with her can't really say here because he's just another Hinata right? his character isn't explored enough to truly define his character

Edited by Phantom_999, 06 July 2011 - 04:02 AM.

[Darth Krypt]

I don't refer back to the manga as much as I used to so Obito doesn't cross my mind sometimes Now I'm just going to play devil's advocate here for a minute: Maybe Obito was only selfless with Rin because he was IN LOVE with her can't really say here because he's just another Hinata right? his character isn't explored enough to truly define his character

I won't say he's a Hinata. More like Naruto during part 1 but he didn't get to spend more time with her so no developments were made. Just because its a one-sided-love doesn't make it comparable to Hinata. Hers is not only one-sided, but not expressed at all.

And IF Naruto knows that the Uchiha tipped of Madara then I don't see a reason why he will kill Sasuke since he was just born and not involved in the attack at all.

[ciardha]

I won't say he's a Hinata. More like Naruto during part 1

Yes, Naruto. Naruto reminds Kakashi of Obito.