53 replies to this topic

[Sora no Kitsune]

^lol I think many of us had the same theories, maybe without knowing it. It's not about being the first. I believed for a long time that Tobi was a Zetsu mixed with Hashirama or Madara's DNA, that he had at least two identities. And I was just gonna ask. XD People keep saying Tobi is a Zetsu, "who is Zetsu then, another Oro-experiment?".

I was actually starting to link that into the equation too. Zetsu is made of the 1st hokage's DNA, and he can absorb other DNA, so it's safe to assume you can make one with uchiha DNA as well. He specifically said he used Izanagi, which could only work if you had uchiha and senju DNA, so that suggests he has both and can imply he altered to make it work perhaps? Not to mention Tobi has lost body parts 3 different times in a fight (from what i can recall) and they eventually grow back and secrete a white goop when severed. Sounds like Zetsu to me.

Edited by Sora no Senshi, 13 August 2012 - 02:19 PM.

[chouzu_tao]

My Theory: Tobi is actually a failed experiment of Orochimaru's involving a Revived Obito (with his body either being recovered from the battle or another body being used as stated in point (5)) which has gotten too strong and self sustaining for Orochimaru to control. As we've seen, Kakashi's Sharingan isn't 100%, and thus the rest of his abilities could be that of Tobi's which could actually be a fully developed Obito Sharingan. Obito also died during the 3rd Great Shinobi war, so it's a good assumption he'd strive for peace after being killed during a great war; add that on top of any conditioning and mind warping from Orochimaru, and you get the current warped idea of "peace" as seen in the "Moon Eye Plan". Kakashi's influence can affect Tobi because they share the same sharingan, and vise versa. Orochimaru has also been revived for seemingly no reason, and this gives him a purpose now; a problem he originally made and is the only one who can possibly fix or (in)directly help fix. All the pieces fit in a seemingly sensible pattern.

R&R and let me know what you guys think!

Edit: With Tobi's eye more or less confirmed to be Obito's eye, this theory now has more ground as well. He said he got it at the Battle of the Kannabi Bridge, the same battle Kakashi got his eye from Obito, AND the same battle obito unlocked the sharingan in the first place. While it's true someone could have just taken the eye, this person shouldn't be able to handle the sharingan with such power. Since kakashi can't do the things tobi can do with it, it's safe to assume that Tobi is an Uchiha.

Ah, so that theory originally came from you? Yeah that was basically the Obito=Tobi theory I thought most plausible, with the additions (that I came up with in a discussion with my sister some years back) Obito was still alive when Kakashi and Rin left him. What if Orochimaru found him and did that experiment with Madara's soul before Tobi was completely dead, what if this merged Obito's memories and feelings with Madara's creating a weird blend, Madara mostly being in control but with odd quirks of Obito- like having a sense of humor (it would explain why his "Tobi" persona was somewhat like scrambled version of Obito's as well). I wonder if Zetsu wasn't originally an Orochimaru experiment too...

While on the whole this theory you guys presented is very sound, there's one slight hole in this theory, if the translation of the chapter I read was correct, Tobi claims to have given Nagato the Rinnegan. He received this after the second great shinobi war. Obito dies during the third great shinobi war. If what Tobi said was true, then it's not possible that he's a messed up clone of Obito, but if he were originally a messed up Zetzu experiment, and later took on Tobi's sharingan and fell in love with it then most of what you guys have said makes sense.

I was actually starting to link that into the equation too. Zetsu is made of the 1st hokage's DNA, and he can absorb other DNA, so it's safe to assume you can make one with uchiha DNA as well. He specifically said he used Izanagi, which could only work if you had uchiha and senju DNA, so that suggests he has both and can imply he altered to make it work perhaps? Not to mention Tobi has lost body parts 3 different times in a fight (from what i can recall) and they eventually grow back and secrete a white goop when severed. Sounds like Zetsu to me.

The zetsu theory does make sense, because he would lose limbs and it didn't even really matter to him. When his arm was poisoned by Danzo's Aburame henchmen and ripped it off... I was like WTF? It doesn't hurt at all? If it doesn't hurt, why does he need the phasing power?

[Codus N]

Honestly, you should never trust what Tobi says. Most of what he tells are half truths. Him giving Nagato the Rinnegan has to be bullcrap. It was probably just a ploy to get Konan's guard down. But it wouldn't be surprising if there was some truth in it.

[tricksie]

Honestly, you should never trust what Tobi says. Most of what he tells are half truths. Him giving Nagato the Rinnegan has to be bullcrap. It was probably just a ploy to get Konan's guard down. But it wouldn't be surprising if there was some truth in it.

My thoughts exactly on never trusting Tobi. I still think he's holding out on the whole story about the Uchihas, and may have only been telling Itachi half-truths knowing he'd pass them down to Sasuke. (He and Itachi never seemed to completely trust each other.)

And the rinnegan thing is either an outright lie or a stretch of the truth in that he started the war that flushed out the rinnegan user. (Or he could have trace it to Nagato, then killed his family in hopes of awakening it.)

Yeah he's totally Half-Truth Tobi.

[Gravenimage]

My thoughts exactly on never trusting Tobi. I still think he's holding out on the whole story about the Uchihas, and may have only been telling Itachi half-truths knowing he'd pass them down to Sasuke. (He and Itachi never seemed to completely trust each other.)

And the rinnegan thing is either an outright lie or a stretch of the truth in that he started the war that flushed out the rinnegan user. (Or he could have trace it to Nagato, then killed his family in hopes of awakening it.)

Yeah he's totally Half-Truth Tobi.

Sorry for going off topic but tricksie you were awarded ANBU congrats!

[Nate River]

Ah, so that theory originally came from you? Yeah that was basically the Obito=Tobi theory I thought most plausible, with the additions (that I came up with in a discussion with my sister some years back) Obito was still alive when Kakashi and Rin left him. What if Orochimaru found him and did that experiment with Madara's soul before Tobi was completely dead, what if this merged Obito's memories and feelings with Madara's creating a weird blend, Madara mostly being in control but with odd quirks of Obito- like having a sense of humor (it would explain why his "Tobi" persona was somewhat like scrambled version of Obito's as well). I wonder if Zetsu wasn't originally an Orochimaru experiment too...

It could also explain Tobi's motivation. I have had such a hard time lining that up with any of the available people even the ones that might have "created him", but perhaps the failed attempt distorted the original Obito enough that elements of his old self are warped into the other pieces that were added later. This bit nags me more than anything else, and no theory really satisfies my doubts about this.

The only hang up I have on Orochimaru is...Kabuto should have been aware of him then. Something like this is a pretty major failure, but I don't get the impression Kabuto is acting like he was aware of that.

Kishimoto has not played it this way, but what Tobi wants to do is a brute force way of obtaining what Naruto wants. The cycle would end because it would be effectively impossible for any to hate at all. Of course, they are robbed of all self-determination in the process. So, an Obito perverted by someone else could result in that type of solution.

I wonder if I am over thinking this. I just can''t find an obvious explanation that covers all remaining doubts. There are problems with every one of them.

[Derock]

Right now, after my facebook conversation I had yesterday, I felt that Tobi could be an original character who is evil and claiming that he's "Madara". Or he could be a random Uchiha.

[Darth Krypt]

Man, this is worse than trying to guess who Red John is in the Mentalist.

What would you guys feel if Tobi turns out to be a character we never seen before? We would need another flashback arc for him and Kakashi since its clear that they knew each other personally. This is the only reason why I think Rin is involved but like many said, there's a lot of problems with that theory. That's why I said she may be "involved" and not Tobi herself. Maybe she uses Edo Tensei or controls someone with Obito's implanted sharingan or something. We know absolutely nothing about her so Kishi can actually do anything with her.

[Sora no Kitsune]

Man, this is worse than trying to guess who Red John is in the Mentalist.

What would you guys feel if Tobi turns out to be a character we never seen before? We would need another flashback arc for him and Kakashi since its clear that they knew each other personally. This is the only reason why I think Rin is involved but like many said, there's a lot of problems with that theory. That's why I said she may be "involved" and not Tobi herself. Maybe she uses Edo Tensei or controls someone with Obito's implanted sharingan or something. We know absolutely nothing about her so Kishi can actually do anything with her.

I almost expecting Kishi to pull something like that out of his ass; just making tobi someone completely random to troll us all to no end. I'm still clutching to the Zetsu Obito with Rin somehow involved theory though no matter what. Obito is just too awesome to be dead and gone, and Rin was never touched on, so there's gotta be something Kishi is gonna do with her character.

[Paradox Jast]

Okay, so here's a theory of mine that will blow your minds away. Literally. (Unless it has been suggested before, of course.)

Tobi is an Uzumaki.

WHAT?!

Yeah, I said it.

Now, I've put a decent amount of thought into this. Of course I could be completely wrong (as this theory is sort of 'out there') but I have some legit reasoning behind it, if you'd be so kind as to continue reading for a few moments longer. There is a method to the madness, I swear. The whole Zetsu, Obito, Rin, Madara/Izuna theories would be cool too, but... but... an Uzumaki!

I encourage everyone to poke holes in my theory, but I think it stands pretty well on it's own until we know more. There are also a couple holes that I'm aware of.

Now... yay for bullet points!

- No one knows a thing about what happened to Uzushiogakure, other than 'it was destroyed'. It was likely during the second war as Kushina was sent to Konoha because of her special chakra at about age 6 or 7 in order to be the next Jinchuuriki. It is unlikely that Mito had been the Jinchuuriki for long, but she might have aged at an accelerated pace because she was already too old when the Kyuubi was sealed in her. It's been stated multiple times that the new host must be young because only a child's chakra coils can adjust successfully to holding the chakra of a bijuu. I find it strange that no one in Konoha has mentioned a word about Uzushio after all this time. I smell cover-up. In other words, helloooooo Tobi's revenge motive. That's why he's such a good boy!

- But his hair? It's black! So you say. Isn't Tsunade also in her 50/60's? C'mon, a guy masquerading as Madara has to at least mostly look the part. The mask is so he doesn't have to constantly disguise the face. A little hair dye here, a genjutsu there, some cell grafting/transplantation over there... viola!

- But he has to be an Uchiha to keep the Sharingan active all the time! *cough cough* Massive chakra reserves would also work, in that regard. Kakashi made comments that he couldn't keep the Sharingan active all the time because while he had large reserves for a Jonin, they weren't that large. Nagato, a confirmed Uzumaki, (with an implanted Rinnegan according to Tobi) had special chakra and massive reserves to be able to do everything he did with the Rinnegan - like bringing hundreds back to life after completely destroying a village using six different bodies. Karin, another confirmed Uzumaki, has large reserves and special chakra - in such a way that she was able to directly share it with others. Kushina had massive reserves and special chakra, she could form chains out of it. Naruto has chakra reserves even more massive than any other Uzumaki (that we are aware of) because his chakra has been compensating for the Kyuubi's since he was born, on top of the fact that the Uzumaki clan were chakra powerhouses in addition to longevity. That lends credence to the belief that a man who can teleport himself anywhere instantly, to any person, while keeping the Sharingan and Rinnegan active... has massive chakra reserves.

- But, how old must he be now to have known Madara? The Uzumaki are confirmed to be a hardy, long-lived clan. Tobi's face has never been completely revealed, but what we have seen shows that he has age lines. Using medical grafting techniques, Zetsu's powers, etc... he has been able to replace limbs that would have been otherwise rendered useless on his original body. However in all fight scenes he has been in, he typically protects his head and torso better than any other body part. Besides that, he has commented about Nagato 'was supposed to save that technique for me' when referring to how the redhead had resurrected the entirety of Konoha.

- Madara knew Edo Tensei and how to gain the Rinnegan after being implanted with Hashirama's cells. Using the Rinnegan, he was able to make his Edo Tensei 'rebirth' a permanent one. Since the Uzumaki were relatives of the Senju, it's also likely that any Sharingan/Rinnegan chakra drain would be lessened.

- Madara isn't sure about Tobi following the 'plan' because Madara likely has a different plan than the Infinite Tsukuyomi. As a man obviously obsessed with power, I'm thinking he wants to become the new Jyuubi Jinchuuriki, straight up. Tobi may have been going along with this at first, but then something changed and now his plan is for the Infinite Tsukuyomi. It may in fact be Naruto vs Madara at the very end?


The biggest problem to figure out if going with this theory would be 'when did Tobi and Madara meet' and why did they agree to work together. Simplest 'guess' answer is why the destruction of Uzushio seems to be so hush-hush. Hashirama likely left Madara alive at the end, if he was at all like Naruto is, in order to teach his friend/rival a lesson and hope he comes out for the better. Unfortunately Hashirama died shortly after the fight, and Madara meanwhile settled in Uzushio. Konoha wasn't happy about that but they couldn't really do anything about it to their 'allies'.

Kushina is sent to Konoha (age 6-7, Academy age?) because of her special chakra, and to keep Konoha passive. She's made the next Kyuubi Jinchuuriki. The second war breaks out shortly after, the Second Hokage perishes near the beginning of the war. Hiruzen is not a Senju, does not have close ties to Uzushio like the first to Kage. He likely made a poorly-informed choice and decided to handle Konoha's own matters before worrying about any allies. The Uchiha may have even attacked Uzushio in retaliation for letting Madara stay there. Whatever the case, Uzushio is destroyed.

Madara has probably been talking with Tobi and filling his head with all sorts of things during the time he was there. Talking about Edo Tensei, the Rinnegan and the ability to bring someone back to life, among other things. When Uzushio is attacked and destroyed, Madara 'dies', and Tobi picks up his mantle while using his name. However Konoha leaves him alone because they have or saw Madara's body. That may explain why Tobi was so surprised when he saw Kabuto with it. Maybe he wasn't expecting Madara to really return, and was working on the Infinite Tsukuyomi instead. Somehow Orochimaru knew of their plans and Kabuto found out as a result. Kabuto having Madara's body, and using Edo Tensei on him, was very much blackmail material if this is the case.

Anyway... my thoughts can go on even further, but I'm getting tired and I think I've typed enough for now. I know there are probably plenty of holes that I'm too sleepy to pinpoint, but I find it amusing how I was able to piece all this together just from thinking Tobi was an Uzumaki. I mean, the guy can teleport to anyone and warp them to his little dimension if he chooses to. He's had how many opportunities now to do it to Naruto? There's got to be some other reason why he seems to be giving Naruto so many chances, other than just plot armor. (Other than being a legit plot hole, anyway.)

Edited by Paradox Jast, 15 August 2012 - 05:27 AM.

[chouzu_tao]

I almost expecting Kishi to pull something like that out of his ass; just making tobi someone completely random to troll us all to no end. I'm still clutching to the Zetsu Obito with Rin somehow involved theory though no matter what. Obito is just too awesome to be dead and gone, and Rin was never touched on, so there's gotta be something Kishi is gonna do with her character.

+

I would be disappointed to be honest. If Kishi plans to give us a perfect stranger as Tobi he'd basically have to show us a bunch of stuff we've never seen before and that would just seems like a huge troll on his part.

I myself wouldn't consider it a troll if it wound up being a new person who has ties to some other estalished folks, but wouldn''t it actually being Obito (not some clone or frankenstein monster) also be considered a troll? He was good person, a parallel to Naruto, and died a good guy, and now he's alive, didn't seek out his friend Kakashi, and is a total jerk-face... wahwah. That feels like a troll to me. Retcons usually feel like trolls.

Paradox Jast it feels like it's been forever since I've seen one of your posts! As far as your theory goes, I think its as good as any we have right now. It's too late for me to reply to the specifics but there are some parts that would and wouldn't make sense, plotwise and thematically.

[Paradox Jast]

Heya cho... yeah, I've been reading more than posting lately. I do so much typing already that the prospect of even more typing sometimes is just... ugh. lol

Anyway, feel free to poke holes when you have time. I just found my own thoughts incredibly amusing and had to write them down. Oh! Maybe another fanfic.

Nonono, that would be bad. Already have to many going. Bad Jast, BAD!

[Codus N]

The biggest question here is, why does it seem like Tobi has a personal vendetta against Kakashi?? It has to be someone from his past considering the way he spoke to Kakashi in a personal tone. The only ones possible are Obito & Rin. Unless there's a new character, only these 2 are possible. But it screws up a lot of things too.

[Sir G]

How bout if Tobi was Madara's brother? Would that make sense? I think it would... somehow.

[Nefertieh]

How bout if Tobi was Madara's brother? Would that make sense? I think it would... somehow.

You mean Izuna?

[Sora no Kitsune]

How bout if Tobi was Madara's brother? Would that make sense? I think it would... somehow.

As far as we know, he's dead, and there is little evidence that anything else is the case. Kishi would have to pull the mother of all flash backs out of his ass if this were the case in order to explain it.

[Strangelove]

awesome!! >....but kakashi would have been only 14 during the time "Tobi" attacked the village to retrieve kurama from kushina....and that tobi looked or seemed older..?

so who was he then? >:o....?

Which brings me to my theory. Kakashi only asked Tobi where he took his eye from. It is possible that the real Tobi is not the one we are seeing right now. Like how Pein controlled the 6 corpses, the same idea might be implied here.


Which could actually implied something really sick, he is using the corpses of the dead Uchiha clan...It could also implied to the fact that Tobi doesn't have a Mangekyo, and if his plans to subdue the 10 tails fails. [Which it will] he would still have other bodies to try again latter, given the chance that the 10 tails doesn't destroy everything in its path.

Edited by Strangelove, 18 August 2012 - 03:09 PM.

[Darth Krypt]

What if Tobi's identity is linked to the scroll that Suigetsu found? The one that can change the tide of the war.

[harry4e]

Well I like Paradox Jasts Theory, if might be a bit difficult to swallow, but in some ways it does make perfect sense, what if he was a child of a Uzumaki and Uchiha? A child of the Ying and the Yang, brought up on two completely ideals, realising the ideals of both school thoughts still didn't stop the bloodshed.

Now ever since it's become apparent that Madara was the third Mizukage, and that that Whirlpool country was destroyed somehow, I thought it's likely that it was Madara who gave the order to have Whirlpool destroyed. It actually makes more sense when more information became availabe, like how Mito Uzumaki was the first Hokages wife and was the one who ultimately sealed away his biggest weapon inside herself so for Madara's plan to work he'd need to get rid of his biggest threat, not the Senju but the Uzumaki who appear to have inherited the Sage of the Six paths body as well as the skill in Fuinjutsu that would leave the threat of them sealing away the Bijuu even after he caught them, maybe even have the power to split the Ten tails into the Nine again.

Now just imagine he finds a child with the black hair and obvious Uchiha heritage but no Sharingan (or worst still what if the child's eyes had been sealed to stop him from using the cursed eyes) So if he took that child and trained him to be the perfect puppet for him implanting the Sharingan in him. Afterall not only he able to use the Sharingan with no trouble (which like Kakashi is always achive I beleive) and he also has the Chakra chains like Kushina does, (though that could be the power unlocked from the Rinnigan but he used chains against Minato) only not used the same way, he used them also to seal the Jichuriki to do his bidding.

So even though it's highly unlikely that Tobi is a unknown Uzumaki it's a possability that we can't completely discount, even though the chance is probably less than 5%. I'm still leaning towards him being a combination of a Zetsu type clone with a part of Madara's souls imprinted inside him, similar to the wa Orichimaru used the curse seal to leave a little part of himself inside everyone he gave the heavons seal too. Over time this Horcrux gained his own identity and his plans deferred from Madara's original plan. That's why he knows so much about the history of clans and Madara and what happened during the battle between Madara and Harishima.

Tobi knows too much about the history to be Obito, not just what happened during the Madara and Harishima battle but also how he knew about Mito's power to sense evil, Obito would not know this considering he wasn't even born when Mito died, plus I am still not sure Obito even with the MS would be good enough in a few months between his supposed death and Naruto's birth to stand face to face with Minato and have Minato worried enough to think he was a big enough threat that he'd seal half of the Kyuubi inside his son. If that is the case then Sasuke's Hax eyes upgrades would be nothing compared to Obito's Hax upgrades, going from a Dobe to as stong a kage is plain crazy.