54 replies to this topic

[HalfDemonInuyasha]

 

So Kakashi imply that it's not ok for Naruto to kill his favorite student but it's ok for his favorite student to kill Naruto?

This is when i'm starting to really hate Kakashi , the first time i'm starting to dislike him is when he throw Naruto to Ebisu so that he can focus teaching Sasuke.

It shows how much of a hypocrite Kakashi.

And it's worse for Kakashi as the Chidori is classed, for SOME reason, as an assassination technique, as in its main purpose is to kill.

The Rasengan, however, is an incomplete technique that can at least be used in a way that DOESN'T kill, but merely disable as Jiraiya demonstrated against those ordinary mooks when he first showed it to Naruto when searching for Tsunade.

[Bryon_Konoha_Ninja]

It shows how much of a hypocrite Kakashi.

And it's worse for Kakashi as the Chidori is classed, for SOME reason, as an assassination technique, as in its main purpose is to kill.

The Rasengan, however, is an incomplete technique that can at least be used in a way that DOESN'T kill, but merely disable as Jiraiya demonstrated against those ordinary mooks when he first showed it to Naruto when searching for Tsunade.

 

Yep. And Naruto had a RIGHT to learn the Rasengan, not just to protect himself from the Akatsuki... BUT BECAUSE HIS DAD WAS THE ONE WHO CREATED IT SO IT'S ANOTHER INHERITANCE IN A SENSE!!

 

I always felt the only reason the Chidori / Lightning Blade is an assassination Jutsu is because of it being designed to kill, especially given Kakashi's mindset when he created the Jutsu being one of blinded by anger and an inability to understand his dad's sacrifice, as well as the fact he taught it to someone as mentally immature and unstable as Sasuke, especially when it comes to Sasuke's inability to handle the fact there can always be someone stronger than you out there.

[gamma]

Sakura is that good, ordinary middle child that got forgotten between the chaos of her older (Sasuke) and younger (Naruto) brothers who're both just a handful. Like Kakashi didn't think about her and instead focused on the last Uchiha while doting on Dead Last, who was barely keeping up. These were two extremes where she got lost somewhere in between.

 

And we'll never know what Kakashi was doing during that two-year time skip, because he seemed genuinely surprised of her abilities during their reunion fight at the beginning. Shouldn't he be keeping tabs on his student? She was the only one still in within the village after all...

 

 

Maybe it wasn't Kishi's intention, but he did Sakura a good thing by letting her break away from all that confusion to approach the Hokage, wanting to be taught and eventually winning Tsunade over. For me, it made up for Kakashi's lack of attention towards her. (Or maybe I just prefer Tsunade and Sakura's mother-daughter bond a lot more.)

[Young Kubrick]

With all of this, I definitely feel that in many ways Kakashi not only failed Sakura, but Sakura being on Team 7 was detrimental to her already challenged self-esteem. And it could have easily been the exact opposite, which is the most frustrating thing about not only this case but many of the series' low points. There's a choice being made to write things a certain way, and it's one thing when you write yourself in a corner and you don't know what to do, so you come up with whatever, but if a scenario can easily be written better and go down a different path why not do that instead of making a huge creative misstep?

[Toby]

 

So Kakashi imply that it's not ok for Naruto to kill his favorite student but it's ok for his favorite student to kill Naruto?

This is when i'm starting to really hate Kakashi , the first time i'm starting to dislike him is when he throw Naruto to Ebisu so that he can focus teaching Sasuke.

 

It shows how much of a hypocrite Kakashi.

And it's worse for Kakashi as the Chidori is classed, for SOME reason, as an assassination technique, as in its main purpose is to kill.

The Rasengan, however, is an incomplete technique that can at least be used in a way that DOESN'T kill, but merely disable as Jiraiya demonstrated against those ordinary mooks when he first showed it to Naruto when searching for Tsunade.

 

 

Why did Kishimoto write Kakashi like that? Like, why isn't Kakashi saying "Sasuke could have killed Naruto" but is saying "Naruto could have killed Sasuke"? 

 

Was this intentional writing on Kishimoto's part, and if so, why? 

 

Is the intent to show Naruto "winning Kakashi's acknowledgement from ground zero?"  But HOW then? If getting stronger won't win Kakashi's acknowledgement (as we see here, Kakashi gets mad because Naruto got stronger.)

 

What was the point of writing Kakashi as a character who wants Naruto to be unable to defend himself against Sasuke's Chidori?   

Edited by Toby, 31 March 2019 - 01:53 AM.

[Bryon_Konoha_Ninja]

 

 

 

Why did Kishimoto write Kakashi like that? Like, why isn't Kakashi saying "Sasuke could have killed Naruto" but is saying "Naruto could have killed Sasuke"? 

 

Was this intentional writing on Kishimoto's part, and if so, why? 

 

Is the intent to show Naruto "winning Kakashi's acknowledgement from ground zero?"  But HOW then? If getting stronger won't win Kakashi's acknowledgement (as we see here, Kakashi gets mad because Naruto got stronger.)

 

What was the point of writing Kakashi as a character who wants Naruto to be unable to defend himself against Sasuke's Chidori?   

 

It's also like how Kakashi was more impressed by Sasuke doing the Lion's Barrage just because of his copying the start of the Primary Lotus from his fight with Lee using the Sharingan than he was with Naruto doing the Naruto Uzumaki Barrage, which Naruto came up with more on the fly just from what he saw of Sasuke's Lion's Barrage AND also doing it to do more pain in some cases by doing hits all at once rather than a combo of moves....? Is it just because Kakashi has that mentality that only the elite are good and those who work to become stronger don't matter?

Edited by Bryon_Konoha_Ninja, 31 March 2019 - 07:42 PM.

[RulesofNature]

 

It's also like how Kakashi was more impressed by Sasuke doing the Lion's Barrage just because of his copying the start of the Primary Lotus from his fight with Lee using the Sharingan than he was with Naruto doing the Naruto Uzumaki Barrage, which Naruto came up with more on the fly just from what he saw of Sasuke's Lion's Barrage AND also doing it to do more pain in some cases by doing hits all at once rather than a combo of moves....? Is it just because Kakashi has that mentality that only the elite are good and those who work to become stronger don't matter?

 

I think that, at the time those events were being written, Kishi wasn't set on Kakashi being Minato's student and as such was writing him to favor Sasuke. This in turn would make Naruto out to be more of an underdog while also making Sasuke look more power hungry when he left the village. It was only later, when the Akatsuki and the tailed beast become more center stage in the plot, that Kishimoto tried to tweak Kakashi to be less of an ass to Naruto leading to some uneven writing.

[Bryon_Konoha_Ninja]

 

I think that, at the time those events were being written, Kishi wasn't set on Kakashi being Minato's student and as such was writing him to favor Sasuke. This in turn would make Naruto out to be more of an underdog while also making Sasuke look more power hungry when he left the village. It was only later, when the Akatsuki and the tailed beast become more center stage in the plot, that Kishimoto tried to tweak Kakashi to be less of an ass to Naruto leading to some uneven writing.

 

Sadly, it didn't turn out as well, like how he talked in his head abotu Naruto while "training" him to learn his natural chakra form, like his finding it unbelievable Jiraiya could teach him the Rasengan and such XP

[Bail o' Lies]

 

It's also like how Kakashi was more impressed by Sasuke doing the Lion's Barrage just because of his copying the start of the Primary Lotus from his fight with Lee using the Sharingan than he was with Naruto doing the Naruto Uzumaki Barrage, which Naruto came up with more on the fly just from what he saw of Sasuke's Lion's Barrage AND also doing it to do more pain in some cases by doing hits all at once rather than a combo of moves....? Is it just because Kakashi has that mentality that only the elite are good and those who work to become stronger don't matter?

I think that, at the time those events were being written, Kishi wasn't set on Kakashi being Minato's student and as such was writing him to favor Sasuke. This in turn would make Naruto out to be more of an underdog while also making Sasuke look more power hungry when he left the village. It was only later, when the Akatsuki and the tailed beast become more center stage in the plot, that Kishimoto tried to tweak Kakashi to be less of an ass to Naruto leading to some uneven writing.

Anytime Kakashi was gushing about Sasuke's skills was more about Kishimoto trying to hype up how impressive Sasuke, the genius rival, was compared to Naruto, the idiot protagonist.

 

The first time it happened was during the bell test.

 

Naruto showing off a forbidden jutsu from the scroll of sealing that he learned in a night and beat a chunin with? Meh.

 

Sasuke using a C rank jutsu, that is the signature jutsu of his clan, and that they are taught pretty much once they can walk? Oh My God! That's completely impossible!! Sasuke must be an absolute genius destine to become the greatest ninja ever to exist to pull that off!!!

Edited by Bail o' Lies, 01 June 2024 - 08:11 AM.

[Phantom_999]

Oh very true. Sasuke Shouldn't have enough Chakra to perform elemental techniques yet? big whoop. But Naruto using a forbidden technique directly from Tobirama's personal scroll which almost no adult Ninja has enough Chakra for to make one or two of is too mundane apparently.

[Bryon_Konoha_Ninja]

Oh very true. Sasuke Shouldn't have enough Chakra to perform elemental techniques yet? big whoop. But Naruto using a forbidden technique directly from Tobirama's personal scroll which almost no adult Ninja has enough Chakra for to make one or two of is too mundane apparently.

I hear that! And the fact Naruto also could also do the Multi Shadow Clone Jutsu should have been something to be impressive about, like the shock Iruka had at Naruto doing it to take down Mizuki and how hard he had to have been training and studying the scroll to be able to learn the Shadow Clone Jutsu. It is a shame Kakashi seemed to let some of his favoritism for natural geniuses blind him to the potential of his other students.

[Illnevergiveup3]

Anytime Kakashi was gushing about Sasuke's skills was more about Kishimoto trying to hype up how impressive Sasuke, the genius rival, was compared to Naruto, the idiot protagonist.
 
The first time it happened was during the bell test. Naruto showing off a forbidden jutsu from the scroll of sealing that he learned in a night and beat a chunin with? Meh. Sasuke using a C rank jutsu, that is the signature jutsu of his clan, and that they are taught pretty much once they can walk? Oh My God! That's completely impossible!! Sasuke must be an absolute genius destine to become the greatest ninja ever to exist to pull that off!!!

I honestly never even thought about that. He made a comment about Naruto being able to do Shadow Clones, but not as much as him getting water wet over Sasukes C-Rank Jutsu. Cant believe I never noticed that.

[catsi563]

Controversial as it may be I actually dont think Kakashi should have trained sakura. their skill sets are just too different. I do think he under trained her and should have provided her a teacher in the chunin exams kurenai would be a great choice to work her genjutsu a bit or one of the medic corp to aid her in becoming a more capable support and even laying a story foundation for her to want to learn more from Tsunade hell even a baseline bit of training from Guy in taijutsu would be a solid start

 

Still story wise I do think she wouldnt have benefited from Kakashis instruction as much as we might think she would have, Sakura story wise is someone who was forced to grow on her own  and push herslf via her own merits until she took to Tsunades teachings

[Bail o' Lies]

Controversial as it may be I actually dont think Kakashi should have trained sakura. their skill sets are just too different. I do think he under trained her and should have provided her a teacher in the chunin exams kurenai would be a great choice to work her genjutsu a bit or one of the medic corp to aid her in becoming a more capable support and even laying a story foundation for her to want to learn more from Tsunade hell even a baseline bit of training from Guy in taijutsu would be a solid start

 

Still story wise I do think she wouldnt have benefited from Kakashis instruction as much as we might think she would have, Sakura story wise is someone who was forced to grow on her own  and push herslf via her own merits until she took to Tsunades teachings

 Its implied that before the chunin exams Kakashi mostly focused on general training with a heavy focus on teamwork. He trained them as a group and anything original to them was due to their own private training. Which to be fair it was implied he only had them for a couple of months. Kakashi was her jounin-sensei it was his job to train her in at least the basics and try to find out what she could specialize in to help out her team. Its is possible that he would have done more individual training if he had them longer.

 

The thing is how are they suppose to work as a team if they don't have a role?

 

Naruto: Shadow clone and his endurance make him a great forward scout and minion-tank.

Sasuke: Mid-Close range DPS.

Sakura:...Support?

 

Sakura didn't have any abilities till midway through the chunin exam where apparently Kakashi did train her in genjutsu. My guess is someone pointed out to Kishimoto that even among the girls she was the only one without any specials abilities outside of the default all learn at the academy. So, this was him addressing that. Then considered the mattered settled. Which is the problem of Kishimoto not kakashi as he never does the whole, "they must always be equal," obsession with her as he does with Naruto and Sasuke. Which leaves to her being constantly left in the dust, only given power ups when people point out how useless she was, and then after getting a power up Kishi considered it good enough.

Edited by Bail o' Lies, 15 September 2022 - 09:08 PM.

[Phantom_999]

 Its implied that before the chunin exams Kakashi mostly focused on general training with a heavy focus on teamwork. He trained them as a group and anything original to them was due to their own private training. Which to be fair it was implied he only had them for a couple of months. Kakashi was her jounin-sensei it was his job to train her in at least the basics and try to find out what she could specialize in to help out her team. Its is possible that he would have done more individual training if he had them longer.

 

The thing is how are they suppose to work as a team if they don't have a role?

 

Naruto: Shadow clone and his endurance make him a great forward scout and minion-tank.

Sasuke: Mid-Close range DPS.

Sakura:...Support?

 

Sakura didn't have any abilities till midway through the chunin exam where apparently Kakashi did train her in genjutsu. My guess is someone pointed out to Kishimoto that even among the girls she was the only one without any specials abilities outside of the default all learn at the academy. So, this was him addressing that. Then considered the mattered settled. Which is the problem of Kishimoto not kakashi as he never does the whole, "they must always be equal," obsession with her as he does with Naruto and Sasuke. Which leaves to her being constantly left in the dust, only given power ups when people point out how useless she was, and then after getting a power up Kishi considered it good enough.

 

That's how the other teams functioned too. the other teams had their own invividual skill sets either from being from a clan or self taught ( Tenten) Nothing indicated the other teacher had a hand in training students one on one either Except for Gai and Lee and that was pure Taijutsu and unlocking those chakra gates

Edited by Phantom_999, 17 September 2022 - 12:24 PM.

[Bryon_Konoha_Ninja]

That's how the other teams functioned too. the other teams had their own invividual skill sets either from being from a clan or self taught ( Tenten) Nothing indicated the other teacher had a hand in trainingstudents one on one either Except for Gai and Lee and that was pure Taijutsu and unlocking those chakra gates

And it was said Guy tried to show Neji and Tenten how to use the Eight Inner Gates but only Lee figured it out.

[Phantom_999]

That's an interesting note

[BlueStarSaber]

 Its implied that before the chunin exams Kakashi mostly focused on general training with a heavy focus on teamwork. He trained them as a group and anything original to them was due to their own private training. Which to be fair it was implied he only had them for a couple of months. Kakashi was her jounin-sensei it was his job to train her in at least the basics and try to find out what she could specialize in to help out her team. Its is possible that he would have done more individual training if he had them longer.
 
The thing is how are they suppose to work as a team if they don't have a role?
 
Naruto: Shadow clone and his endurance make him a great forward scout and minion-tank.
Sasuke: Mid-Close range DPS.
Sakura:...Support?
 
Sakura didn't have any abilities till midway through the chunin exam where apparently Kakashi did train her in genjutsu. My guess is someone pointed out to Kishimoto that even among the girls she was the only one without any specials abilities outside of the default all learn at the academy. So, this was him addressing that. Then considered the mattered settled. Which is the problem of Kishimoto not kakashi as he never does the whole, "they must always be equal," obsession with her as he does with Naruto and Sasuke. Which leaves to her being constantly left in the dust, only given power ups when people point out how useless she was, and then after getting a power up Kishi considered it good enough.

Kishimoto does not seem to get the show not tell when it comes to sakura. Like with her seal like yes we know its strong with tsunade but we only see glimpses of it with sakura. She should of had a full on on fight with it

[Bail o' Lies]

Kishimoto does not seem to get the show not tell when it comes to sakura. Like with her seal like yes we know its strong with tsunade but we only see glimpses of it with sakura. She should of had a full on on fight with it

The problem with Kishimoto is how he sees shounen heroine.

 

Tell me, what are your thoughts on American cartoons, what are you're thoughts of 80's action cartoons, and the action cartoons that came out since the 1980's?

 

Now here is something people who works on an American action cartoon have been saying since the end of the eighties interviews to hype up their shows. "We are trying to make are story more meaningful and deeper. None of that villain losing every week and saying I'll get you next time." Now, they have been saying that for more than thirty years at this point, why? Because the impression of Action Cartoons that are in peoples' minds are from the eighties. So, Action Cartoons have been repeating the same thing for 30 years to try to escape the shadow of the 80's shows.

 

Now back to kishi. He doesn't read or watch shounen stories from my understanding. He prefers Live actions Japanese dramas and Hollywood movies. His impression of shounen mangas therefor remain of when he read shounen manga. Pretty much 80s-90s era and maybe his coworkers stuff when he was working on Naruto. So, he has not really kept up with the changes especially since Naruto started. So he both hasn't kept up with the changes of the genre since he read it, and is trying to write with his understanding of what shounen manga is. Similar to the people that work on American action cartoons trying to be ground-breaking in their genre from their understanding, but ignore the fact that the genre has to naturally change over the years. Granted many people working on American cartoon never realized this and that's partially why action cartoons have all but disappeared. With anime and anime inspired show dominating that genre.

 

So for his heroines lets first look at Anna from Samurai 8. She is the classical shounen heroine, she spend her time on the sidelines thinking, "oh main character-kun," praying that he will win, except her prayers do actually impower him. It would have been creative if not innovative in the 2000's, its archaic now-a-days because that heroine archetype isn't really that common in shounen stories' now-a-days.

 

Now, with Sakura she was the 80-90's shounen heroine a spunky girl that hits the main character a lot and rarely if ever fights. "Except she is on a combat team and is expected to fight," we all say. Why yes, but the problem is that this is the archetype kishimoto grew up with. So, he has mental blocks that make it difficult for him to fully accept girls regularly fighting in shounen stories is fine, granted many of his contemporaries have this problem even Oda. I mentioned this before but part of Sakura appeal to the Japanese is she sort of represented this shift in the genre of a girl that is both suppose to but at the same time not fight coming into her own and finding her own path and resolving to fight. Of course since the Japanese were fine with her development because of that, it allowed Kishimoto to coast with her only needing to patch her up every once and awhile...at least when Yahagi was his editor.

Edited by Bail o' Lies, 17 December 2022 - 05:48 PM.

[catsi563]

Hell thats whats most vexing, Sakura actually subverts at least one tsundere trope in that she doesnt hit Naruto that much at all, 3-4 times max the entire manga. the anime is responsible for adding so many Sit boy moments to her character that she comes off as abusive when the reality is very different