101 replies to this topic

[Tokura Misaki]

I bet the mods will be closing this thread.

[Qia]

Do you not think that the fight had gone beyond the point of interference? He was pinned and unable to move, and moments from being... captured/killed/unsure-but-bad-things. Hinata admitted, largely, to being selfish (because she knew she would be unlikely to be able to save him).
Naruto had, seemingly, already given in to the idea that he would end up being captured - but still have largely succeeded in protecting his friends (assuming Pain simply left). It was also implied that he was at the limits of his Nindo (without relying on the fox and endangering his friends).
Hinata's Nindo overlapped and conflicted somewhat with his. Naruto's desire to not have his friends interfere was ultimately a desire for the same thing that was about to happen in chapter 615. Hinata was not about to give up on herself, or on Naruto - and decided that it was time to act regardless of the odds and consequences be damned.

Yea but no matter how much she knew Naruto might have been captured right then, if she knew that she couldn't go up against Pein, why didn't she at least try to get Naruto out of the rods that were holding him down? Answer: She didn't. If she knew that she couldn't defeat Pein on her own, why didn't she try to get the help of others who may have wanted to help him anyway? Answer: She didn't. Sure there was a chance they wouldn't have gone, but she didn't even TRY. She didn't even try to convince them that he seriously was in a lot of danger right now and that they had to at least try and get him out of those rods. What Hinata did may have lead to Naruto losing control of Kurama and Naruto being able to get out of the hold, sure. However, she had no idea that Naruto's seal was weakening and that he would react this way, and, therefore, would have no idea that being a martyr would potentially save his life. All she seemed to care about was proving herself to him in that moment and confessing her love, and it was just the wrong moment to do so because, if Naruto hadn't lost control, he still would have been captured and still would have been killed.

If Sakura understood Naruto better, then why was Sakura unable to reach through to Naruto's walls of "I don't deserve..." that Hinata so effortlessly shattered?
The answer is simple: Sakura doesn't really see that the wall exists. She hasn't been lonely - not like Naruto has. She's never felt the isolation of no one wanting you. The only thing she really empathizes strongly with Naruto is her feelings of loss over Sasuke... and even then - Sasuke was, quite literally, a brother to Naruto (or the only thing he could begin to identify as a brother). He was a friend and eye-candy to Sakura.

Is this about 615? Because clearly Sakura wasn't close enough to him back then (distance wise). Hinata simply got to do it first, and it was all to give her that shining moment of her being able to inspire the person she looks up to and show that same strength that Naruto saw when she'd try to save him back in the Pein Arc and to stop being so hard on herself. That's why. It has nothing to do with Sakura not being able to see the walls, because with Sasuke she can see that they are there. Her confession and her words in 573 show this. Hinata has not effortlessly shattered anything because, when it comes to Sasuke, his walls are still up. Plus, if we were to give credit to anyone, it would actually be Neji since all Hinata did was explain his words.

And Sakura hasn't been lonely? Okay, sure she hasn't been lonely to probably the extent that Naruto has, but even she herself stated to Sasuke that if he leaves she would feel lonely. And then after that, her other teammate ends up leaving for how many years? I'm sure there must have been times she felt lonely then. But you don't necessarily have to experience the same thing as someone as badly as they have to understand them. And if Hinata understands Naruto's loneliness so much, why wasn't she shown at least trying to be his friend when he was a kid? Surely she could see and understand how lonely he was back then since she suddenly knows him so well without talking to him, right? Why wasn't she shown at least looking sad for him when he'd lost Jiraiya? For someone who's supposed to understand so well that she could be his lover in the future, Kishi sure didn't take his time to show that.

Yamato himself was enraged at Sakura for her fake confession
We like to cite Yamato's line at the Heaven and Earth bridge as proof that Sakura possibly loves Naruto.
However, his reaction during Sakura's confession was one of suspicion and anger. If this doesn't almost retcon his line from before, it at the very least shows that he could tell Sakura was lying about loving Naruto at that moment.

Well yea of course he'd be suspicious, but it's not for the reason that this argument is insinuating. The only thing that can go against tha tbridge scene is Sakura showing that she doesn't care for Naruto, but she did that confession BECAUSE she was worried and cared for him. It was clear from the moment she mentioned Sasuke, however, that she probably hadn't come there to confess her feelings, hence why Yamato becomes suspicious and angered. It wasn't because he thought she didn't love Naruto. It was because it was obvious that something had happened and she was keeping it from them.

Sai acknowledges Sakura loves Sasuke
We use Sai's flashback as proof of Naruto's love for Sakura. But after the fake confession, while Sai is revealing Sakura's true intentions for confessing to Naruto, he states that because of Sakura's love for Sasuke, she plans to kill him herself to make sure Sasuke doesn't sink any lower on the path of darkness. She may have Naruto's feelings at heart, but her main motivation remains to be Sasuke himself.

I really hate this argument because people seem to assume that Sakura would want to continue chasing Sasuke after all that he's done since she still holds old feelings for him, when the only thing she's stated is that she wants Team 7 to be happy together again. They seem to assume that you can't like two people at the same time. They seem to ignore the simple fact that if Sakura was truly lying about her feelings for Naruto, her reaction to him accusing her of lying to herself would seem weird, and the other simple fact that she hasn't been shown trying to make some kind of apology for lying about her feelings for him if she had even weirder.

And you know why Sai stated that? Because Naruto states that Sakura loves Sasuke so much, and he hasn't actually seen the way Sakura and Sasuke's relationship works, so why would he think of going against that? Answer: He wouldn't. But just because he didn't doesn't mean that Sakura's lying to herself when it comes to Naruto. And this argument seems to ignore that Sakura was not only doing this for Sasuke but also for Naruto, not just Sasuke. She wants to take that burden away from Naruto and take Naruto's hate as a price for her causing him pain.

-Despite having specifically trained in evasion as a medic, one of the first things she does at the Heaven and Earth bridge is get knocked out and depend on Yamato to rescue her
So ninjas can't get knocked out anymore because they're trained for it and have improved their skills? Okay then.

When she awakes, she then runs crying towards Naruto, who is in his Four-Tails form. This serves as a reminder of her past role as a useless damsel in distress who simply serves to bring drama into a situation.
How exactly is she a damsel in distress if she wanted to help him but had no way how???? The only person who could stop Naruto was Yamato. And she hadn't run towards Naruto in order to cause drama. She ran towards him because she wanted to help in any way she can at the time because she cares very much for him. All she did was let her feelings get the better of her, the same thing Hinata did. Except the major difference between those two situations is that Hinata ran towards an enemy while Sakura ran towards a friend in order to try and get through to him.

-The same thing happens in their first encounter with Sasuke, where she is the first one to get knocked out, and stays out of action for the rest of the confrontation.

Uhh correct me if I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure she wasn't even given a chance to face Sasuke then. Yamato had jumped in front of her.

-After the destruction of Konoha by Pain, she is the one who screams out helplessly for Naruto, again fulfilling her role as a person on the sidelines simply used to add dramatic flair to a situation
Her village was destroyed right before her eyes. She believes in Naruto, and believes that he can stop the new dangerous enemy. I will add here though that I do hope that Sakura gets the chance to go up against a big enemy again but:
1. Blame Kishi for not doing this, not her.
2. She's a med nin, so her priority is not fighting but staying alive in order to heal others, such as the villagers who were still there. Fighting isn't the only concern of a ninja, especially medics.

-During the second Team 7 confrontation, she puts herself in a damsel in distress situation as Sasuke is about to drive a Chidori through her chest. It's up to Kakashi to come and save her.
Later on in the fight the same exact thing happens again: she idiotically puts herself in danger and Naruto has to come to her rescue at the very last second.

She didn't think Sasuke had gone so far as to attack her? She was getting ready to attack him but was pausing because she was about to strike someone who was once her friend? She thought she could do it at first, but I guess not? I will admit that I wished she had a backup plan for this just in case, but it wouldn't be fair of me to get angry at her for thinking she could actually go through with something at first. She did come very close to killing Sasuke in the end too but...

I think what Kishi may have tried here was to show how horrible Sasuke has truly become, going so far as to kill even one of his past teammates. But this moment should not show regression. It just brings up something that needs to be taken of as well: Her feelings for Sasuke, something that has been a little "shrugged off" since part 2 began. Personally, as a Narusaku shipper, I believe she needs to realize that even though she may still have feelings for Sasuke, she's in love with Naruto and that she'll choose him anyway in the end. It's better that she chooses him over Sasuke so that nobody can argue that the only reason she picked Naruto was because Sasuke was evil and he's basically "second best". Rather, Sakura is able to still have feelings for the bad guy but know who she wants to be with in the end. I think the return of her feelings is also to show that her love for Sasuke actually became quite genuine after a while with being on the same team as him and actually talking to him.

-Despite being the one to uncover the plot involving White Zetsu, Sakura herself is tricked the next day by the Zetsus in disguise, and once again, Naruto must come rescue her from her damsel in distress role.

Another argument I hate. Sakura was placed in a predicament here: either she take the chance and let these people die in front of her, or take the risk and see if they actually need help. I can't believe people are mad at her for this. As a medic nin, it's her job to save as many lives as she can, and it's not like she had a way of determining whether these people were zetsus or not. Those types of moments are risky and stressful for the person who has to make that decision. It's not fair that she's getting s*** for this.

And I just love it how this person completely ignores that Hinata had to be saved, even though she was fighting in the war and it all comes down to her abilities as a ninja, while Sakura was just trying to save another life yet she's the one that's the "damsel in distress". I.LOVE.THAT.

Edited by Qia, 25 February 2013 - 01:43 PM.

[AzureWaters]

First, I should clear any potential misconceptions that might have stemmed from the thread title: This is not a thread made to argue against NaruSaku.
I am a staunch NaruSaku supporter, and will often debate with other people over at NarutoBase in support of this pairing (and Sakura herself). I just want to get other people's opinions.

Although most of the "arguments" given by NaruHina fans are easily countered and horribly biased at best, the following reasons are some of the few that actually made me think.
For a couple of these, I already have responses floating around in my head, but I really would like to get a good idea of what you guys think and how you would respond so that I can better reinforce my perspective in the future.
Any feedback is appreciated. Thanks!

1) Hinata's Interference during the Pain fight
Us NaruSaku fans like to argue that Hinata's attempted "rescue" of Naruto was a selfish and pointless act- that it did nothing but cause further distress for Naruto and show just how little Hinata truly understands his desires.
A different point of view, however:

Do you not think that the fight had gone beyond the point of interference? He was pinned and unable to move, and moments from being... captured/killed/unsure-but-bad-things. Hinata admitted, largely, to being selfish (because she knew she would be unlikely to be able to save him).
Naruto had, seemingly, already given in to the idea that he would end up being captured - but still have largely succeeded in protecting his friends (assuming Pain simply left). It was also implied that he was at the limits of his Nindo (without relying on the fox and endangering his friends).
Hinata's Nindo overlapped and conflicted somewhat with his. Naruto's desire to not have his friends interfere was ultimately a desire for the same thing that was about to happen in chapter 615. Hinata was not about to give up on herself, or on Naruto - and decided that it was time to act regardless of the odds and consequences be damned. ~Aim64C of NB

2) Hinata understands Naruto more than Sakura ever could
Credit to Chatte for posing this question back then:
"Please explain how Hinata understands Naruto's bond with Sasuke, how she understands his loneliness, how she understands his complexes, how she understands that he needs to be cared for from time to time, how she understands his sensei's death."
The response:

She had a cousin who hated her existence - a father who considered her useless and turned her over to Kurenai as a lost cause. She's spent a considerable portion of her life merely wanting to be recognized as valid.
As for Sasuke - she's chased after Naruto and held a torch for Naruto for some time - while that's understanding on a tangent - it's something for her to empathize with. Though true empathy is, to some degree, understanding that there can only be so much empathy - so much understanding. She's also lost Neji - who was something of a brother, but a slightly different context than Naruto with Sasuke (though she did have to deal with Neji being caught up in revenge).
Losing a Sensei... well, she's currently lost Neji - who, if I remember correctly, is stated to have been training her. Again - something of a tangent and not exact. Though, for Naruto losing his sensei was less of losing a teacher and more of him losing a father (after not having one). Hinata was thrown to Kurenai by her father with the parting words of: "Don't care, she's useless to me."
There are small parallels that can give hinges for empathy. But, as I said - empathy is also understanding that you can never be the other person or completely experience their pain.

If Sakura understood Naruto better, then why was Sakura unable to reach through to Naruto's walls of "I don't deserve..." that Hinata so effortlessly shattered?
The answer is simple: Sakura doesn't really see that the wall exists. She hasn't been lonely - not like Naruto has. She's never felt the isolation of no one wanting you. The only thing she really empathizes strongly with Naruto is her feelings of loss over Sasuke... and even then - Sasuke was, quite literally, a brother to Naruto (or the only thing he could begin to identify as a brother). He was a friend and eye-candy to Sakura. ~Aim64C

3) Yamato himself was enraged at Sakura for her fake confession
We like to cite Yamato's line at the Heaven and Earth bridge as proof that Sakura possibly loves Naruto.
However, his reaction during Sakura's confession was one of suspicion and anger. If this doesn't almost retcon his line from before, it at the very least shows that he could tell Sakura was lying about loving Naruto at that moment.

4) Sai acknowledges Sakura loves Sasuke
We use Sai's flashback as proof of Naruto's love for Sakura. But after the fake confession, while Sai is revealing Sakura's true intentions for confessing to Naruto, he states that because of Sakura's love for Sasuke, she plans to kill him herself to make sure Sasuke doesn't sink any lower on the path of darkness. She may have Naruto's feelings at heart, but her main motivation remains to be Sasuke himself.


As to an analysis of Sakura herself:
While Sakura was awesome indeed during the Kazekage Rescue Arc, she has regressed horribly since then:
-Despite having specifically trained in evasion as a medic, one of the first things she does at the Heaven and Earth bridge is get knocked out and depend on Yamato to rescue her. When she awakes, she then runs crying towards Naruto, who is in his Four-Tails form. This serves as a reminder of her past role as a useless damsel in distress who simply serves to bring drama into a situation.
-The same thing happens in their first encounter with Sasuke, where she is the first one to get knocked out, and stays out of action for the rest of the confrontation.
-After the destruction of Konoha by Pain, she is the one who screams out helplessly for Naruto, again fulfilling her role as a person on the sidelines simply used to add dramatic flair to a situation
-During the second Team 7 confrontation, she puts herself in a damsel in distress situation as Sasuke is about to drive a Chidori through her chest. It's up to Kakashi to come and save her.
Later on in the fight the same exact thing happens again: she idiotically puts herself in danger and Naruto has to come to her rescue at the very last second.
-Despite being the one to uncover the plot involving White Zetsu, Sakura herself is tricked the next day by the Zetsus in disguise, and once again, Naruto must come rescue her from her damsel in distress role.

Really, it's as if Kishi dedicated an arc to her character development, then as soon as it was it was over let her return to the way she was for majority of Part 1: a useless damsel in distress. In this sense, she is not deserving of her title as the apparent "heroine" of the series.



How would you personally counter some of these arguments? Or are they legitimate reasons as to why NaruHina is the better pairing and why Sakura makes a bad heroine?

I don't think your trying to troll, but you could have worded some things better in order to not agitate the members here. Specifically the title. "Reasons why NaruHina is better" looks like your challenging NS instead of just trying to see their perspective on these arguments. "Why NaruHina has credibility" or "Why NaruHina has support from the manga" sounds a lot tamer.

As for myself, I do see some merit in NaruHina and I don't believe those that ship it have no reason to. They are gaining credibility as Kishi continues to focus on their pairing, and that's a plus for them. Preferably I like the idea of NS much more, but at this point I think there's a chance that it may not happen. I hope for some focus soon, but regardless if Kishimoto will do it or has made up his mind about the other pairings I will support NaruSaku regardless.

I believe Sakura tries to understand Naruto, but does make mistakes in judgements and things can turn out badly for her and those around her. As a heroine she needs to do something beneficial for her character before the manga's end, and I think Kishi will give her that chance. Hinata understands Naruto's desire to not fail and to succeed, but she will not be present for his struggle with Team 7 and Sasuke. It is fine however, as she doesn't belong in that conflict. I think she does ok with what she does support Naruto with. She's not the main heroine and never will be, but she gets heroine-like moments and is a central side character.

[candycane-chan]

I don't think your trying to troll, but you could have worded some things better in order to not agitate the members here. Specifically the title. "Reasons why NaruHina is better" looks like your challenging NS instead of just trying to see their perspective on these arguments. "Why NaruHina has credibility" or "Why NaruHina has support from the manga" sounds a lot tamer.

As for myself, I do see some merit in NaruHina and I don't believe those that ship it have no reason to. They are gaining credibility as Kishi continues to focus on their pairing, and that's a plus for them. Preferably I like the idea of NS much more, but at this point I think there's a chance that it may not happen. I hope for some focus soon, but regardless if Kishimoto will do it or has made up his mind about the other pairings I will support NaruSaku regardless.

I believe Sakura tries to understand Naruto, but does make mistakes in judgements and things can turn out badly for her and those around her. As a heroine she needs to do something beneficial for her character before the manga's end, and I think Kishi will give her that chance. Hinata understands Naruto's desire to not fail and to succeed, but she will not be present for his struggle with Team 7 and Sasuke. It is fine however, as she doesn't belong in that conflict. I think she does ok with what she does support Naruto with. She's not the main heroine and never will be, but she gets heroine-like moments and is a central side character.

First bolded: Sakura doesn't try to understand naruto. She already does. She understands his goals and his dreams and his unwavering devotion to save sasuke, and those things are what drive naruto's character. The only thing she doesn't understand about about him is why he would possibly "be in love with someone like her"- and that's more from guilt then from not understanding him.

second bolded: What judgment mistakes? If you're talking about the events of the kage summit then that's debateble. Sakura had a plan and she wa working according to it, but she couldn't bring herself to kill sasuke. Her emotions got the better of her. And if you mean how she didn't quite get him in part 1 then I would say that that's just part of her developmentbut by the end of part 1 she understood him.

third bolded: that's a matter of an opinion I know a lot of people aren't satisfied with her character but I love her development. You can tell how much she changed from the clingy fangirl to a the hokage's student. kakashi thought that she can surpass tsunade and chiyo said that sakura will surpass her. Most complains are appearing now after lee, ino, hinata, and shikimaru got there development, but sakura is next.

forth bolded: what heroine moments? if you're talking about her confession then there was absolutely nothing heroic about it. You would do anything to the person you love and hinata would do anything for naruto. And if you're talking about 615 (?) then i would say that although that was some nice development for her "character" it wasn't heroic.Because her speetch didn't affect anyone ( not the rookies and not the alliance) it was just for naruto. And I acually thought lee's moment was better written. But that's just my opinion.

Edited by candycane-chan, 25 February 2013 - 12:51 PM.

[HauntedCake]

When it comes to walls and characters i believe there are some walls still up.

NaruHina > The walls for this pairing are all on Naruto's side. To this point he just hasn't shown any romantic feelings for Hinata due to them being given to Sakura. There is a chance that NaruHina might happen as Naruto may break these halls for Hinata down.

NaruSaku > There are several walls for this pairing.

1) Sakura's "love" for Sasuke - biggest and most problematic for this paring.
2) Both Naruto and Sakura have a "I dont deserve the other" wall up. This can be demolished if Kishi lets them.
3) POAL - until this is completed Naruto will put the POAL above all else, including Sakura. The fake confession kind of supports this.

Ultimatly with this pairing it's all going to be decided in the Sasuke vs Naruto arc. If Sakura can let go of her childish crush for Sasuke then i believe this pairing will be canon.

SasuSaku > This pairing is kind of one sided

Sasuke has put up a fortress in front of the 10 walls. This just can't happen. Hes tried to kill her twice. End of.
Yes, Sakura still has feelings of "love" (more like a childish crush), however she has developed a real feeling of love for Naruto. She has shown to put Naruto above even Sasuke. She hasn't come to terms with how she feels about Naruto, she might subconciously love Naruto but is yet to accept concoiusly that she loves him.

I have no doubt she will try one more time to plead to Sasuke, maybe even do something similar to what she did to Naruto with a fake confession. No doubt Sasuke will shrug it off.

Edited by HauntedCake, 25 February 2013 - 12:56 PM.

[PhenixElite]

When it comes to walls and characters i believe there are some walls still up.

NaruHina > The walls for this pairing are all on Naruto's side. To this point he just hasn't shown any romantic feelings for Hinata due to them being given to Sakura. There is a chance that NaruHina might happen as Naruto may break these halls for Hinata down.

NaruSaku > There are several walls for this pairing.

1) Sakura's "love" for Sasuke - biggest and most problematic for this paring.
2) Both Naruto and Sakura have a "I dont deserve the other" wall up. This can be demolished if Kishi lets them.
3) POAL - until this is completed Naruto will put the POAL above all else, including Sakura. The fake confession kind of supports this.

Ultimatly with this pairing it's all going to be decided in the Sasuke vs Naruto arc. If Sakura can let go of her childish crush for Sasuke then i believe this pairing will be canon.

SasuSaku > This pairing is kind of one sided

Sasuke has put up a fortress in front of the 10 walls. This just can't happen. Hes tried to kill her twice. End of.
Yes, Sakura still has feelings of "love" (more like a childish crush), however she has developed a real feeling of love for Naruto. She has shown to put Naruto above even Sasuke. She hasn't come to terms with how she feels about Naruto, she might subconciously love Naruto but is yet to accept concoiusly that she loves him.

I have no doubt she will try one more time to plead to Sasuke, maybe even do something similar to what she did to Naruto with a fake confession. No doubt Sasuke will shrug it off.

Pff, its not that easy for NH to happen, that all kishi has to do is making naruto fall for hinata. At this point its actually impossible for NH to happen without ruining characters and story.
-He needs to describe how his main character who never changes suddenly gives up on one of his goals he had since chapter 3.
-He should have added a lot more moments between naruto and hinata, with naruto showing any kind of interest in hinata.
-He needs to describe yamatos unfinished sentence.
-He needs to tell why he developed sakuras feelings for naruto in part two, if he then jut throws them away in the end.
-He needs to tell why he added NS supporting parrallels, especially kushina words.
-He needs to tell why he added a movie that supports one of these parallels.
-He needs to describe why he lets his side character acchieve what she wants instead of the main character.
-He needs to describe why he kept focusing even more on the NS relationship if he could have stoped after part 1.
-He needs to describe, why naruto did all the stuff to win sakuras affection, if in the end he just suddenly starts loving hinata.

Thats pretty much everything that has to be cleared up by kishi to make NH canon without ruining story and character developments.

[rocci]

agreed, this is not nh thread, but counter naruhina argument thread.

and where s/he can ask suggestion if not in this forum. all naruto forum basically NH lair or Sakura hater

[HauntedCake]

Pff, its not that easy for NH to happen, that all kishi has to do is making naruto fall for hinata. At this point its actually impossible for NH to happen without ruining characters and story.
-He needs to describe how his main character who never changes suddenly gives up on one of his goals he had since chapter 3.
-He should have added a lot more moments between naruto and hinata, with naruto showing any kind of interest in hinata.
-He needs to describe yamatos unfinished sentence.
-He needs to tell why he developed sakuras feelings for naruto in part two, if he then jut throws them away in the end.
-He needs to tell why he added NS supporting parrallels, especially kushina words.
-He needs to tell why he added a movie that supports one of these parallels.
-He needs to describe why he lets his side character acchieve what she wants instead of the main character.
-He needs to describe why he kept focusing even more on the NS relationship if he could have stoped after part 1.
-He needs to describe, why naruto did all the stuff to win sakuras affection, if in the end he just suddenly starts loving hinata.

Thats pretty much everything that has to be cleared up by kishi to make NH canon without ruining story and character developments.

Agreed on all but last point. I don't think he's "won" Sakura's affection 100% yet. Sasuke is still c**kblocking Naruto on that front. But yeah suddenly loving Hinata makes no sense

Edited by HauntedCake, 25 February 2013 - 01:25 PM.

[PhenixElite]

Agreed on all but last point. I don't think he's "won" Sakura's affection 100% yet. Sasuke is still c**kblocking Naruto on that front.

Ohh i know, i ment that naruto tried and still tries so much to win sakuras affection, that it would look weird if the manga ends with all that beeing useless.

[HauntedCake]

Ohh i know, i ment that naruto tried and still tries so much to win sakuras affection, that it would look weird if the manga ends with all that beeing useless.

Yeah i misread what you put.

Edited by HauntedCake, 25 February 2013 - 01:51 PM.

[kirabook]

I know one thing for certain, there's a lot of rabid NS fans in here. :T

Calm down people and just discuss the points, it's not that hard. Leave the poor OP alone. That said, I might have something more to discuss later with this, but I'm in class at the moment.

[Sojobo]

This is subjectif as hell. I don't think someone can say at 100% wich one is better or not.
In my point of view, I would say NaruSak.
There is a whole developpement there, there are good and bad moments (NH only has good moments), they try tu understand each other, they are changing.
A lot of NH/SS fans are saying that when there is a NS moment or discussion, it's always about Sasuke, and that Sasuke is the only reason why Sakura cares so much about Naruto.
I will say that when you look at NH moments, it's always talking about the same thing : NINDO.
Hinata never showed any interest in his Hokage dream, she never cared about Sasuke (she was even following all the rookies for killing him), she doesn't care about Jiraiya's loss (even if Sakura didn't show any cares either).

When she's talking too Naruto, it's always about herself, your Nindo is my Nindo, you're a proud failure like me, etc...
It is so bouring to read that everytime she has a moment with him.

Sakura showed in the manga that she cared about his dream, about his relationship with Sasuke, about his loss of parents, about his Jinchuuriki life, about his suffering, about feeding him, and a lot of other insignifiant things. That's how a woman should act towards his man.
The only thing I regret in NS, is that Kishimoto did reinforce her feelings lately for Sasuke instead of making them dissapear.
Kishimoto wants probably Sakura to be in love with her two comerades, like Maarm in Dragon Quest, or the girl in Star Driver Takuto.
Of course there is probably one guy she loves more than the other (must be the one she can't realize yet), but I prefer the girl who is fangirling a guy, and that she learns real love after knowing better the other guy who was always by her side.
Sakura really loves Sasuke, we can't change that anymore. She will probably stop chasing after him when she'll learn that the feelings she coudn't realize for Naruto were stronger.
And that is what true Love is, you can't explain this feeling, and sometimes, you need more time to realize that you don't see your friend like a friend, especially when it becomes more and more ambigous. (physical contact, asking herself about the nature of her feelings, want to do more for him, and so on)

[TouKen4Life3g]

Oh man, I would love to write my thoughts on it but I'm on work duty now. Perhaps my lunch break, I would express it but I get the feeling that people are covering that for me. Looks like one person that I know will put it nicely and she's here. Don't worry, I'm not bashing you for this topic. I'm happy to see of this to see how people can explain their POVs.

Edited by NaruSaku4Life3g, 25 February 2013 - 02:33 PM.

[xxRomanceGirlxx]

I recognize this NaruHina fan. I've debated with him a lot in the past. He's probably one of the only NH fans I respect and has acknowledged my point as a possibility. But still, as usual, I disagree with absolutely everything he says. We never agree lol.

I'll definitely respond to all of this later. Right now I have school. Let's not let this thread get closed until I post, kay?

[TouKen4Life3g]

I recognize this NaruHina fan. I've debated with him a lot in the past. He's probably one of the only NH fans I respect and has acknowledged my point as a possibility. But still, as usual, I disagree with absolutely everything he says. We never agree lol.

I'll definitely respond to all of this later. Right now I have school. Let's not let this thread get closed until I post, kay?

That's the person. Well, I would wait. Besides, there are many that are capable to express their thoughts and pretty much day what everyone say.

[HauntedCake]

I recognize this NaruHina fan. I've debated with him a lot in the past. He's probably one of the only NH fans I respect and has acknowledged my point as a possibility. But still, as usual, I disagree with absolutely everything he says. We never agree lol.

I'll definitely respond to all of this later. Right now I have school. Let's not let this thread get closed until I post, kay?

lol, i've been hyping you up all day. I'm sure you'll lay the smackdown on this one.

[tricksie]

Just an fyi, friends — mods are definitely watching this thread and discussing it. Any bashing will get an automatic closure. But things seem to be okay so far....

[TouKen4Life3g]

lol, i've been hyping you up all day. I'm sure you'll lay the smackdown on this one.

I can see you're a big fan. Lol. But yeah, a lot of people here are either working or at school. I may be typing at work but I won't be able to express my thoughts thoroughly. Nevertheless, when the time comes, it will be solid. I can talk for a brief moment, so yeah, I'm limited. Maybe because the boss is under me. Not literally but one floor down. Anyway, I do see a lot of great posts already, so I'm satisfied.

[HauntedCake]

I can see you're a big fan. Lol. But yeah, a lot of people here are either working or at school. I may be typing at work but I won't be able to express my thoughts thoroughly. Nevertheless, when the time comes, it will be solid. I can talk for a brief moment, so yeah, I'm limited. Maybe because the boss is under me. Not literally but one floor down. Anyway, I do see a lot of great posts already, so I'm satisfied.

Yeah love reading her posts (yours too!), always got tons of background research in them, and they actually make sense and have a point to them. Deffo looking forward to it.

[James S Cassidy]

1) Hinata's Interference during the Pain fight
Us NaruSaku fans like to argue that Hinata's attempted "rescue" of Naruto was a selfish and pointless act- that it did nothing but cause further distress for Naruto and show just how little Hinata truly understands his desires.
A different point of view, however:

Do you not think that the fight had gone beyond the point of interference? He was pinned and unable to move, and moments from being... captured/killed/unsure-but-bad-things. Hinata admitted, largely, to being selfish (because she knew she would be unlikely to be able to save him).
Naruto had, seemingly, already given in to the idea that he would end up being captured - but still have largely succeeded in protecting his friends (assuming Pain simply left). It was also implied that he was at the limits of his Nindo (without relying on the fox and endangering his friends).
Hinata's Nindo overlapped and conflicted somewhat with his. Naruto's desire to not have his friends interfere was ultimately a desire for the same thing that was about to happen in chapter 615. Hinata was not about to give up on herself, or on Naruto - and decided that it was time to act regardless of the odds and consequences be damned. ~Aim64C of NB

This has always been a huge topic of debate and the more I think about it, the more I feel Sakura's confession looks better. Yeah I get it that Hinata "looks" better cause it looked like she "risked her life for Naruto," but she really didn't. She risked her life for herself. Even Peirrot, who are huge Hinata fans, actually saw how selfish she was and added so much more to that scene to make it less selfish.

Hinata didn't jump out there to help Naruto. She didn't jump in the fray to take a bullet or to help Naruto up. If that was truly the motive, she would have focused much more on the spike's pining Naruto down than about her confession. Again Perriot attempted to show this by adding in her taking out the spikes in the anime. She did no such thing in the manga. She jumped out, confessed, then got owned on the first hit. She didn't get three attempts at Pein, nor did she truly help Naruto in anyway. In fact, she made it worse an almost cause the death of not only herself AND Naruto, the one she loves, but also the entire village.

She scene, the more you think about it, showed two things:
1. How selfish she is. She is so focused on her "love" for Naruto that she doesn't care about anyone else. Not even Naruto's well being. Think about that. Her "infatuation" with Naruto is so great, she doesn't even care about the health and safety of her love himself. That's bad.

2. How little faith she has in Naruto. See, she didn't jump out there thinking "I need to help Naruto." I am sure some will say she did, but I saw something different. She jumped out there thinking "We're all gonna die anyway. I want to have no regrets." Again, it's all about her. I can even prove this further just by asking you to remember the one scene where Hinata was worried about Naruto's safety, but Sakura told her she has no faith in him. That she "underestimates him."

2) Hinata understands Naruto more than Sakura ever could
Credit to Chatte for posing this question back then:
"Please explain how Hinata understands Naruto's bond with Sasuke, how she understands his loneliness, how she understands his complexes, how she understands that he needs to be cared for from time to time, how she understands his sensei's death."
The response:

These were actually the arguments I wanted to bring up to Chatte on why NH fans will say that Hinata is closer to Naruto because they share the same experience.

She had a cousin who hated her existence - a father who considered her useless and turned her over to Kurenai as a lost cause. She's spent a considerable portion of her life merely wanting to be recognized as valid.

And she still hasn't changed her course on this. She hasn't really tried to better herself. Yeah she got stronger and more confident after a long while, but Sakura showed to change much faster and become stronger in will alone in the two year skip.

As for Sasuke - she's chased after Naruto and held a torch for Naruto for some time - while that's understanding on a tangent - it's something for her to empathize with. Though true empathy is, to some degree, understanding that there can only be so much empathy - so much understanding. She's also lost Neji - who was something of a brother, but a slightly different context than Naruto with Sasuke (though she did have to deal with Neji being caught up in revenge).

Losing a Sensei... well, she's currently lost Neji - who, if I remember correctly, is stated to have been training her. Again - something of a tangent and not exact. Though, for Naruto losing his sensei was less of losing a teacher and more of him losing a father (after not having one). Hinata was thrown to Kurenai by her father with the parting words of: "Don't care, she's useless to me."
There are small parallels that can give hinges for empathy. But, as I said - empathy is also understanding that you can never be the other person or completely experience their pain.

This is what I say to this: If Hinata knew exactly how Naruto felt during those times, then why wasn't she there when he needed someone for comfort? For someone who says she loves him so much, she hardly tried being with the guy or to comfort him at all. Even Sakura, who also has not felt the same experiences, was even more comforting to Naruto than Hinata ever was.

This is why when people claimed 615-616 for what it was saying "Hinata has always been there." That's a lie within itself. This is why to this day this will always be the most forced chapter in my eyes. It completely contradicted everything that had happened just so Hinata can have a birthday present.

If Sakura understood Naruto better, then why was Sakura unable to reach through to Naruto's walls of "I don't deserve..." that Hinata so effortlessly shattered?
The answer is simple: Sakura doesn't really see that the wall exists. She hasn't been lonely - not like Naruto has. She's never felt the isolation of no one wanting you. The only thing she really empathizes strongly with Naruto is her feelings of loss over Sasuke... and even then - Sasuke was, quite literally, a brother to Naruto (or the only thing he could begin to identify as a brother). He was a friend and eye-candy to Sakura. ~Aim64C

Hinata didn't shatter it. More like reinforce his resolve or even reinforce the wall itself. It didn't bring down Naruto's walls nor did it allow Naruto to "accept" anything. It just let Naruto not to give up his nindo and even then I am being generous. I could argue Hinata just reinstated what both Neji and Itachi said.

3) Yamato himself was enraged at Sakura for her fake confession
We like to cite Yamato's line at the Heaven and Earth bridge as proof that Sakura possibly loves Naruto.
However, his reaction during Sakura's confession was one of suspicion and anger. If this doesn't almost retcon his line from before, it at the very least shows that he could tell Sakura was lying about loving Naruto at that moment.

I still don't say Sakura's confession was fake. Just because Naruto said it was a lie, doesn't mean it was. I think Yamato was mad because like Naruto he thought something was up. It was suspicious of Sakura to have done what she did, so I am not surprised Yamato and Naruto questioned it. It's called them "flying off the handle" because they assumed something that wasn't.

Just like how the NH fans assume a lot of things that aren't true.

4) Sai acknowledges Sakura loves Sasuke
We use Sai's flashback as proof of Naruto's love for Sakura. But after the fake confession, while Sai is revealing Sakura's true intentions for confessing to Naruto, he states that because of Sakura's love for Sasuke, she plans to kill him herself to make sure Sasuke doesn't sink any lower on the path of darkness. She may have Naruto's feelings at heart, but her main motivation remains to be Sasuke himself.

Wrong. She is not killing Sasuke for Sasuke's sake. She is killing Sasuke for Naruto's sake. She wanted to relive the burden of Sasuke off Naruto because, thanks to Sai, she was aware of how much pain Naruto was in. Again, Sakura was willing to risk her own personal image and Naruto hating her just to save his life. She was was willing to give so much more than just her life for Naruto.

Also, since Sai is "all knowing" and that because he says "Sakura loves Sasuke" automatically makes it true, then I guess it must be true that Naruto loves Sakura. So I guess this makes NH impossible as well. I think Sai is pro-NS. ^-^

As to an analysis of Sakura herself:
While Sakura was awesome indeed during the Kazekage Rescue Arc, she has regressed horribly since then:
-Despite having specifically trained in evasion as a medic, one of the first things she does at the Heaven and Earth bridge is get knocked out and depend on Yamato to rescue her. When she awakes, she then runs crying towards Naruto, who is in his Four-Tails form. This serves as a reminder of her past role as a useless damsel in distress who simply serves to bring drama into a situation.

Right, but Hinata running out to confront Pein and almost getting killed is not being that useless damsel and drama-bringer? See this is what I hate the most. Hinata gets forgiven of all her sins, but Sakura does not.

-The same thing happens in their first encounter with Sasuke, where she is the first one to get knocked out, and stays out of action for the rest of the confrontation.

Hinata has been in three battles throughout the manga. She lost in all of them. Neji...lost. Pein....lost. Zetsu clones...Lost. The fourth battle...she needed severe help from Naruto to boost her. Sakura? She managed to take on a Zetsu clone by herself an was going to deal with the other two, but Naruto was quicker to the punch. Put it this way, Naruto saved Sakura and Hinata from the clones, but let me ask you which one was on the ground thinking they were pathetic? Not Sakura.

-After the destruction of Konoha by Pain, she is the one who screams out helplessly for Naruto, again fulfilling her role as a person on the sidelines simply used to add dramatic flair to a situation

Okay, then I guess the ENTIRE VILLAGE fills this role. Pein was a monster who was powerful an cause destruction. Hinata didn't do anything either, but this is ignored. The only character who jumped in there before Naruto was Tsunade an then Naruto told everyone to stay back. Naruto TOLD everyone to stay back.

-During the second Team 7 confrontation, she puts herself in a damsel in distress situation as Sasuke is about to drive a Chidori through her chest. It's up to Kakashi to come and save her.
Later on in the fight the same exact thing happens again: she idiotically puts herself in danger and Naruto has to come to her rescue at the very last second.

Sakura is not strong enough to beat Sasuke. I am not even talking about strength wise, but emotional wise. She wanted to end it, but she couldn't bring herself to do for whatever reason. People would argue cause she still loves him, but I think it is only part of it. She couldn't have done it because he was a teammate. Many reasons could be argued.

Again, I emphasis that Hinata has put herself in danger as well and no one said anything. I am not saying Sakura doesn't make mistakes, but merely asking why her mistakes are constantly held against her while Hinata's are forgiven so easily?

-Despite being the one to uncover the plot involving White Zetsu, Sakura herself is tricked the next day by the Zetsus in disguise, and once again, Naruto must come rescue her from her damsel in distress role.

Again, this is false too. She took out the Zetsu clone by herself without any help from anyone. Like I said above. I have no clue where they keep thinking he is this damsel in distress.

Really, it's as if Kishi dedicated an arc to her character development, then as soon as it was it was over let her return to the way she was for majority of Part 1: a useless damsel in distress. In this sense, she is not deserving of her title as the apparent "heroine" of the series.

No, Sakura has never returned to her part 1 personality or role. Anyone who sees this is too blind by the fandom to notice how much she has changed. As for the Sasuke bits, if she succeeded in killing Sasuke, then Naruto's role would have been diminished. For the same reason why if Hinata actually beat Pein, Naruto's role as the hero would have been diminished.

However, looking at the successes and failures is not really the point I look at. Instead, I focused on intent. Why they did what they did? Sakura will be the heroine when it is needed the most an not to save his life by slaying the dragon. She will be the heroine who saves the hero from himself. Hinata...she can't do this. She won't do this because she doesn't see the Sasuke ordeal. She doesn't see how much f an impact that has made.

Edited by James S Cassidy, 25 February 2013 - 03:51 PM.