77 replies to this topic

[TerrorKing]

I get what you're saying, and I appreciate your point. You're right.

But I guess where applying the term "constructive criticism" breaks down for me is when readers relentlessly complain about Kishimoto's story, presentation, and decisions. (It's even worse when the complaining is based on huge assumptions.) It seems to me that complaining falls under the classification of "feedback" and not constructive criticism -- especially considering there's often nothing truly constructive in most of the complaints I read. And if the criticisms are unlikely to ever reach Kishimoto or his team, how can they ever be constructive in the literal sense?

I tend to think constructive criticism is only valuable and effective when it is offered by an experienced peer. For example, if you've written fan fiction then you're in a better position to offer another fan fiction writer constructive insights and opinions based on your knowledge and experience. Unless we're professional mangaka with more than ten years of experience producing a successful, long-term manga, how can we judge Kishimoto's ability or vision with any authority?

Readers can express their opinions -- provide reactionary feedback of his results -- but that's as consumers, not as Kishimoto's peers or as qualified critics of the medium. I think the moment a reader believes their personal preferences and expectations count for more than an author's intent and artistic rights, the reader has strayed into the realm of entitlement.

I agree. Instead of simply saying "This sucks!" people should say "This sucks and here's why!". A rather crude example, but I think it gets the points across no?

However, I disagree with the idea that you have to be an expert for your opinion to carry any significant meaning. Why? Because of...

And sometimes as an artist, it is good to bounce your ideas off an average person to see what people are into. Will you take their advice? Not all the time, but you can get ideas from it.

^This. Sometimes, getting an "outsiders" perspective on things can potentially help reveal inconsistencies and faults in your "design". No, this does not mean that I wan't Kishi to screen his chapters before sending them out or that he should lways try to please everyone. All I'm saying is that Kishi is biased. He's the author after all. What might make perfect sende to him might not make perfect sense to us, the readers.

Edited by TerrorKing, 07 July 2012 - 01:25 AM.

[KnS]

Sometimes, getting an "outsiders" perspective on things can potentially help reveal inconsistencies and faults in your "design". No, this does not mean that I wan't Kishi to screen his chapters before sending them out or that he should lways try to please everyone. All I'm saying is that Kishi is biased. He's the author after all. What might make perfect sende to him might not make perfect sense to us, the readers.

I don't disagree at all. Every writer needs a fresh eye on their work, no question. But that's what his editors and team are for -- not fans who would steer him over a creative cliff and then would complain about that, too.

[TerrorKing]

I don't disagree at all. Every writer needs a fresh eye on their work, no question. But that's what his editors and team are for -- not fans who would steer him over a creative cliff and then would complain about that, too.

I wasn't talking about fans deciding what direction the story should go in or having an impact on major events and such. I'm talking about small details like "You should probably explain this a little better" or "I don't really see the connection here". You know, small tweaks here and there.

Stil, yes that role could definetly be filled by Kishi's editors and staff as well, however that depends on whether one considers them to be biased as well.

Edited by TerrorKing, 17 July 2012 - 11:21 AM.

[James S Cassidy]

I don't disagree at all. Every writer needs a fresh eye on their work, no question. But that's what his editors and team are for -- not fans who would steer him over a creative cliff and then would complain about that, too.

Who you think the editors look at to direct ideas in the story?

[KnS]

Who you think the editors look at to direct ideas in the story?

I guess you'll just have to forgive my painful ignorance, James. I didn't realize it was common knowledge that Kishimoto wasn't writing his own story, and that his editors spent their time combing the internet to get his ideas for him. I just assumed he had a plan and knew what he was doing.

I wonder how they decide who to listen to since the fanbase doesn't agree? Just flip a coin? Pin ideas to a dart board and see which one they hit first? Some kind of interoffice Idea Sweepstakes? I'm really curious now, since I obviously don't have a clue about the process. Does anyone know?

Hmm. I understand people's paranoia much better now. If the story is changeable based on the whims and complaining of displeased fans, then whoever screams the loudest could get their way. It might be NaruHina after all, despite the foreshadowing and painstaking set up.

Wow. Not much artistic integrity in a story that's essentially ghost-written by fans.

[TerrorKing]

Well, from what I understand, there are some instances where Kishi has let an external force dictate how certain events in the story would unfold. For example, the formation of Team Taka (or Hebi) and the mass rescurrection at the end of the Pain arc was apparently due to Kishi's editor or something. Again, this is just something I've read, I don't really have a direct source on it, so I can't really vouch for it's credibility.

However, I've have also heard that Kishi at one point stated that he already had all the major events in the manga planned out and that it's just a matter of how to connect the dots. I suppose it's in between those major events that Kishi would let his editors or his staff come up with ideas and input. In turn, both his editors and his staff might get some of their ideas from the internet? Who knows, I'm just speculating here.

So I definetely think that Kishi knows what he's doing. Afterall, this is his story and I very much doubt that he's going to let it play out in a way that he doesn't find saticfactory.

Edited by TerrorKing, 07 July 2012 - 11:35 PM.

[Sakamaki Izayoi]

I guess you'll just have to forgive my painful ignorance, James. I didn't realize it was common knowledge that Kishimoto wasn't writing his own story, and that his editors spent their time combing the internet to get his ideas for him. I just assumed he had a plan and knew what he was doing.

I wonder how they decide who to listen to since the fanbase doesn't agree? Just flip a coin? Pin ideas to a dart board and see which one they hit first? Some kind of interoffice Idea Sweepstakes? I'm really curious now, since I obviously don't have a clue about the process. Does anyone know?

Hmm. I understand people's paranoia much better now. If the story is changeable based on the whims and complaining of displeased fans, then whoever screams the loudest could get their way. It might be NaruHina after all, despite the foreshadowing and painstaking set up.

Wow. Not much artistic integrity in a story that's essentially ghost-written by fans.

I understand what u are saying but kishimoto is fond of sakura's character because when he draws her and try to show some of her emotions and stuff u can notice his difficult to draw a heroine.
But even if some editor sasy hey put NH to please the fans, then he will ask why?
there's no construtive critic of why naruto should get hinata instead of sakura.
Kishimoto wont accept such a bashing on one of his characters saying that hinata is better just because of her breast or saying that hinata's is better than sakura.

Edited by dovahkiin, 08 July 2012 - 12:29 AM.

[MagusKyros]

Kishimoto's storytelling is horribly awful, and one can speculate on multiple things as to why that could be. Ranging from interference from editors and bosses to not exactly being able to "connect the dots" properly, or just plain bad ideas.

I could name many problems in the series, from Naruto's character development (or lack of) to how the Akatsuki members have been defeated, to lack of continuity with certain concepts.

Sasuke is a better and more interesting character in the entire series. What Kishi has done with Sasuke is pretty good. His fights are awesome, he has techniques that are awesome, he's not a one-dimensional character, he has depth in his character and one can feel it. A lot of people hate Sasuke for various reasons, but that's because people don't understand where his character is coming from, and that's because of bad storytelling. Naruto character is quite the opposite of what I said here.

The fighting in the series isn't good either. There seems to be little or no skill involved in defeating the enemy, or it's just outright unbelievable. Itachi died of a disease? Shikamaru beat Hidan, when he barely beat Tayuya? Kakuzu got tricked by Naruto, twice? Sasori is said to have taken down a village, but he got defeated by his old-old grandmother and Sakura? I don't even want mention Pain or Konan.

Then we have continuity issues in the series, or just bad timing with concepts. Kage Bunshin can transfer the memory of it's individual back to the user? There is a chakra elemental system? The Rasengan can kill someone anyway, as Jiraiya did with one of the pains, why is the Rasen-shuriken needed if the Rasengan can do it? I won't even go into the Sharingan, or even the Rinnegan? Why all these eye techniques? Why does the Sage of Six Paths have to have a doujutsu, why can't he just be a powerful warrior?

I'm only mentioning this in brief as I can elaborate, but it's pointless, mostly because it's not my series and also it's been said before. None of my complaining will change. The only thing I can do with my ideas is to write a fanfiction and post it up and offer it as an alternative course to the Naruto story, something people would like.

I still read the story though, for one reason only, and that's because I like the message he has in the story. Naruto won't give up on his friend, whereas everybody else has given up on Sasuke. He believes that Sasuke can still change, and that concept to me is what attracts me to reading the manga. Even though it's fictional, friendship like that isn't seen in today's world. I've only heard of a select few individuals who are like this and I deeply respect them.

[PachucoDesigns]

Sasuke is a better and more interesting character in the entire series. What Kishi has done with Sasuke is pretty good. His fights are awesome, he has techniques that are awesome, he's not a one-dimensional character, he has depth in his character and one can feel it. A lot of people hate Sasuke for various reasons, but that's because people don't understand where his character is coming from, and that's because of bad storytelling. Naruto character is quite the opposite of what I said here.

While I disagree with a lot of your objections and could elaborate, I don't really have the energy to at the moment. With this, however, I absolutely agree. And I have been saying it all along. Though, I don't believe it to be because bad storytelling. I believe it to be because most fans of this anime tend to find something they like in a character, even if that character does not develop well, and cling to it with absolutely no desire to distance themselves from the characters and analyze them rationally. Everything that is needed to understand Sasuke is there plain as day. But most don't care to look for it.

So I guess what my question boils down to is:
1. Why do so many people within the fanbase perceive Kishi as a bad writer who is sexist?
2. If they claim that his writing is so bad and that he hates women so much, then why do they insist on continuing to read this comic they seem to hate so much?

1. I do not see it as sexist toward women. If anything, it's more sexist toward men.
2. I, personally, don't believe the writing is all that bad. It's not a stroke of genius by any stretch of the imagination, but it is entertaining. As for those to continue to read it even if they don't like it, I would like to hope it is because they either believe that they have something to learn, or they just enjoy the discussion with others who criticize such things. Unfortunately, though, it's most often just because they like to stir up trouble.

Edited by PachucoDesigns, 17 July 2012 - 01:30 AM.

[merryGOflava]

.

Sasuke is a better and more interesting character in the entire series. What Kishi has done with Sasuke is pretty good. His fights are awesome, he has techniques that are awesome, he's not a one-dimensional character, he has depth in his character and one can feel it. A lot of people hate Sasuke for various reasons, but that's because people don't understand where his character is coming from, and that's because of bad storytelling. Naruto character is quite the opposite of what I said here.

i disagree i find naruto way more interesting :3

just because i dont find depressing characters like sasuke that unique....

naruto is the type of character that puts on a happy face but is depressed inside (at least at first) and i think thats way more deep :3

[Jenskott]

i disagree i find naruto way more interesting :3

just because i dont find depressing characters like sasuke that unique....
naruto is the type of character that puts on a happy face but is depressed inside (at least at first) and i think thats way more deep :3

You only think that because it is true.

Sasuke is unique not at all (and I certainly can not feel his aleged complexity and depth. He looks very one-dimensional to me). I have found dozens of characters like him reading books and comic-books (Western or Japanese), watching movies, anime or cartoons...

He is the classic character has been hurt and decides hurting everyone else in return. Nothing unique about that.

Of course, every character is an archetype can be summarized on one or two lines. Tropes and archetypes are not necessarily bad. It depends on the execution. It happens I don't find this particular archetype interesting, and Sasuke is a character I find boring.

Lone Wolf and Cub's Itto Ogami was that kind of character. But the execution was excellent and engaging.

Personally I find more compelling a character has all kind of reasons -or excuses- to fall into darkness... but he or she refuses to do so, and he/she is determined to keep his/her humanity and try and be a good person. That is one of the reasons I find Naruto way more interesting than Sasuke.

And this is going reaaaaaal off-topic now. Let's tell Ï agree with the topic starter.

[PachucoDesigns]

Sometimes, getting an "outsiders" perspective on things can potentially help reveal inconsistencies and faults in your "design". No, this does not mean that I wan't Kishi to screen his chapters before sending them out or that he should lways try to please everyone. All I'm saying is that Kishi is biased. He's the author after all. What might make perfect sende to him might not make perfect sense to us, the readers.

There are processes for this sort of thing. They're called market studies, ratings, and consumer expenditure surveys. They are implemented specifically to override creative integrity in favor of maximizing sales and profits.

[TerrorKing]

There are processes for this sort of thing. They're called market studies, ratings, and consumer expenditure surveys. They are implemented specifically to override creative integrity in favor of maximizing sales and profits.

I wasn't talking about fans deciding what direction the story should go in or having an impact on major events and such. I'm talking about small details like "You should probably explain this a little better" or "I don't really see the connection here". You know, small tweaks here and there.

[PachucoDesigns]

And no individual fan's opinion is going to affect that. Because it's either explained and they aren't getting it, but other fans are and can explain it, or nobody is getting it and there will be a loud enough ring of confusion in the audience to motivate that explanation later down the line. And even then, it doesn't really matter, because fans are wont to riddle their understanding with theories and baseless presumptions. Hence, pairing wars.

[TerrorKing]

I just think it would be better if three things were explained in the story itself.

Anyway, my main point is that fans have the right ti critisize an authors work, as long as they are sensible about it. Other than that, I funky agree that an author should stick ti his/her guns and not let
the fans dictate how his/her story should unfold.

However, people who use "artistic integrety" to justify bad storytelling are just as bad as people who shine and act entitled IMO.

[PachucoDesigns]

I just think it would be better if three things were explained in the story itself.

Anyway, my main point is that fans have the right ti critisize an authors work, as long as they are sensible about it. Other than that, I funky agree that an author should stick ti his/her guns and not let
the fans dictate how his/her story should unfold.

However, people who use "artistic integrety" to justify bad storytelling are just as bad as people who shine and act entitled IMO.

I find that, more often than not, fans who criticize anyone's work are only doing so because something happened in the story that they didn't like, or because something didn't happen that they were hoping for. This is not bad storytelling, this is fan bias. And the fans who cry "Naruto should have ended up with ____ ! Baaaw!!!" or "Sasuke is a jerk!" are precisely the ones who do not deserve to be taken seriously.

[TerrorKing]

I find that, more often than not, fans who criticize anyone's work are only doing so because something happened in the story that they didn't like, or because something didn't happen that they were hoping for. This is not bad storytelling, this is fan bias. And the fans who cry "Naruto should have ended up with ____ ! Baaaw!!!" or "Sasuke is a jerk!" are precisely the ones who do not deserve to be taken seriously.

So if Kishi suddenly decides to pair Naruto up with Hinata out of nowhere, us NS fans have no right to complain or even question it? If that is what you're saying, then I guess we willl just have to agree to disagree because I don't agree with that at all.

Extremes are bad, no matter which side you're on and in my opinion, those who defend anything that Kishi writes are just as bad as those who constantly complain and act as if they can do better.

[PachucoDesigns]

So if Kishi suddenly decides to pair Naruto up with Hinata out of nowhere, us NS fans have no right to complain or even question it? If that is what you're saying, then I guess we willl just have to agree to disagree because I don't agree with that at all.

Extremes are bad, no matter which side you're on and in my opinion, those who defend anything that Kishi writes are just as bad as those who constantly complain and act as if they can do better.

No storyteller who has any idea what he's doing just changes major details on a whim like that. And if Naruto did end up being paired with Hinata, you do have the right to dislike it. You even have the right to question it, but you do not have the right to assume that he decided it on a whim just to piss off the fans. He didn't. That's not how the process works.

[TerrorKing]

No storyteller who has any idea what he's doing just changes major details on a whim like that.

That depends on whether Kishi actually does know what he's doing, which I do believe he does. However, even the best storyteller can somehow paint himself into a creative corner. Still, when it comes to pairing, I trust Kishi 100%.

And if Naruto did end up being paired with Hinata, you do have the right to dislike it. You even have the right to question it,

Good. In that case we agree.

but you do not have the right to assume that he decided it on a whim just to piss off the fans. He didn't. That's not how the process works.

If Kishi suddenly decides to end the series with NH, he'd better have a damn good reason, otherwise I'm calling bullsh**. That's all I'm saying.

Edited by TerrorKing, 17 July 2012 - 03:11 PM.

[PachucoDesigns]

That depends on whether Kishi actually does know what he's doing, which I do believe he does. However, even the best storyteller can somehow paint himself into a creative corner. Still, when it comes to pairing, I trust Kishi 100%.

Sure, they can. But most won't. The thing of being a seasoned veteran is that you learn to overcome those mistakes. You learn proper formatting, how to spot mistakes and how to efficiently correct them. It comes with experience. If Kishimoto painted himself into a corner, then frankly, he has absolutely no clue what he's doing. But that isn't the case. If it was, he wouldn't be among the top-selling mangaka for as long as he has.

Good. In that case we agree.

No. We really don't. Because the last part of that sentence was my main point.

If Kishi suddenly decides to end the series with NH, he'd better have a damn good reason, otherwise I'm calling bullsh**. That's all I'm saying.

As a shipper of the NS pairing, I seriously doubt that there is any reason you could possibly accept for any outcome other than NS. So, no offense, but I would not be moved if you called bullsh**. Even if you do not accept the proposition that Naruto loved Hinata back (I don't either), the fact that he has dedicated any energy to it at all as a possibility means that he has laid the groundwork to take that route if he needs to. All he would really need to do is have Naruto somehow take notice of her and consider her confession on the battlefield. Naruto has never been loved by a girl, not like that. And as someone who is in the same situation, I can tell you, suddenly learning that someone has a serious crush on you would, at the very least, spark curiosity in testing the waters.

Do I think NH will happen? No. I think NS will happen, because it is the only pairing that has received so much deliberate attention and detailed development. But I constantly hear NS fanatics claim that it is completely impossible. No, it really isn't. Nothing is, not if Kishimoto knows what he is doing.

Edited by PachucoDesigns, 17 July 2012 - 06:43 PM.