25 replies to this topic

[xerorains]

The walls of Naruto... Hm, yes, I suppose I can agree with that in some ways. The fact is Naruto is an underdeveloped character. You can chalk it up to complexity, but the fact is that he's never actually had time to explore himself as a person. What does he do when he's not on a mission? Play a prank? Not anymore. Which leaves eating ramen. That is Naruto's one and only hobby.

You can't even bring into consideration of becoming Hokage, because his mission and ninja way are self-incorporating of that. Naruto spent too much time feeling rejected and lonely. As a result, he was forced to cope with situations that forced him to accept maturity at much too young of an age. So he acted out, in the best ways he knew how because it garnered him attention.

Is Naruto dumb? Not even in the slightest. Despite showing poor test scores, and a constant flow of what could be considered ADHD, Naruto excels in making good judgement. Even when overwhelmed and under-prepared, his ability to think quickly rivals the genius of Shikamaru. In fact, those who consider him dumb are often exploited in combat for having this idea.

Which leads me to my point. Naruto is not complex at all. He has no hobbies and very little interests. He is merely the victim of his own circumstance, having neither the experience or guidance to deal with his own personal problems. Even Kakashi has chosen not to help him with this. The result is Naruto is one dimensional, the possibilities of other aspect leave him confounded.

Which gives us the confession...

If you're going to take the good, then you have to be willing to take the bad. In my opinion, Sakura did not plan on confessing to Naruto at all. Yet she did, so there we have honesty. I ask myself, what if it had worked? Then what? Would they have returned to the village together and started dating? I don't think Sakura had thought that far ahead. She expressed her thoughts. Not only did she express them, she expressed them genuinely. The difference, and why Naruto reacted that way, is because she expressed thoughts, and not beliefs. There was no conviction in what she was saying, even though she accepted the reality of her situation.

It's true, (and why Kishi, oh why) that Sakura still loves Sasuke. In what light, I couldn't say. Because I fail to understand it. Call it love at first sight, if you'd like, except it seems to happen to Sasuke with every girl that lays eyes on him. There is perhaps some difference when it comes to Sakura, however, as she is the closet to their barbie-ken doll dream. She saw the things that others did not, things that warranted understanding and sympathy. Things that allowed her to provide momentary comfort. Which she was even thanked for.

The problem is these are things you are not thanked for. These are things that come naturally in a relationship. Something that Sakura and Sasuke never developed. Something I consider to be impossible at this point in time. So in my mind, it is an author's mistake to continue to portray. Because out of all things, this is the most unrealistic based on the way it has been depicted.

Going back, a part of Sakura had obviously expected Naruto's reaction. She even thanked him for it. She thanked him because she knew her resolve was weak, and in Naruto (for the ???th time???) she found it once more. So what I get out all of this is that Sakura thinks she "likes" Naruto. I am pretty sure she loves him. If we take the pudding as proof, it is written all over. My only doubt is that Kishi may not see the body of his work in it's entirety. Because that is the only conceivable way I see Naruto and Sakura not ending up together.

How do things progress from that point? I would think it has to be mutual. An actual honest-to-god date would go a very long way. Though I see the possibility for that as slim. If Naruto and Sakura are going to be together, as they should, then I expect things to happen soon. Even if it's the middle of a war, the time is definitely now. Especially since the likeness to Obito is so similar. Obito should be shown that the hero does get the girl, and all things happen for a reason, but that the result can be good.

Just my two cents. I'm new here, so don't beat me up too badly.

[PhenixElite]

The walls of Naruto... Hm, yes, I suppose I can agree with that in some ways. The fact is Naruto is an underdeveloped character. You can chalk it up to complexity, but the fact is that he's never actually had time to explore himself as a person. What does he do when he's not on a mission? Play a prank? Not anymore. Which leaves eating ramen. That is Naruto's one and only hobby.

You can't even bring into consideration of becoming Hokage, because his mission and ninja way are self-incorporating of that. Naruto spent too much time feeling rejected and lonely. As a result, he was forced to cope with situations that forced him to accept maturity at much too young of an age. So he acted out, in the best ways he knew how because it garnered him attention.

Is Naruto dumb? Not even in the slightest. Despite showing poor test scores, and a constant flow of what could be considered ADHD, Naruto excels in making good judgement. Even when overwhelmed and under-prepared, his ability to think quickly rivals the genius of Shikamaru. In fact, those who consider him dumb are often exploited in combat for having this idea.

Which leads me to my point. Naruto is not complex at all. He has no hobbies and very little interests. He is merely the victim of his own circumstance, having neither the experience or guidance to deal with his own personal problems. Even Kakashi has chosen not to help him with this. The result is Naruto is one dimensional, the possibilities of other aspect leave him confounded.

Which gives us the confession...

If you're going to take the good, then you have to be willing to take the bad. In my opinion, Sakura did not plan on confessing to Naruto at all. Yet she did, so there we have honesty. I ask myself, what if it had worked? Then what? Would they have returned to the village together and started dating? I don't think Sakura had thought that far ahead. She expressed her thoughts. Not only did she express them, she expressed them genuinely. The difference, and why Naruto reacted that way, is because she expressed thoughts, and not beliefs. There was no conviction in what she was saying, even though she accepted the reality of her situation.

It's true, (and why Kishi, oh why) that Sakura still loves Sasuke. In what light, I couldn't say. Because I fail to understand it. Call it love at first sight, if you'd like, except it seems to happen to Sasuke with every girl that lays eyes on him. There is perhaps some difference when it comes to Sakura, however, as she is the closet to their barbie-ken doll dream. She saw the things that others did not, things that warranted understanding and sympathy. Things that allowed her to provide momentary comfort. Which she was even thanked for.

The problem is these are things you are not thanked for. These are things that come naturally in a relationship. Something that Sakura and Sasuke never developed. Something I consider to be impossible at this point in time. So in my mind, it is an author's mistake to continue to portray. Because out of all things, this is the most unrealistic based on the way it has been depicted.

Going back, a part of Sakura had obviously expected Naruto's reaction. She even thanked him for it. She thanked him because she knew her resolve was weak, and in Naruto (for the ???th time???) she found it once more. So what I get out all of this is that Sakura thinks she "likes" Naruto. I am pretty sure she loves him. If we take the pudding as proof, it is written all over. My only doubt is that Kishi may not see the body of his work in it's entirety. Because that is the only conceivable way I see Naruto and Sakura not ending up together.

How do things progress from that point? I would think it has to be mutual. An actual honest-to-god date would go a very long way. Though I see the possibility for that as slim. If Naruto and Sakura are going to be together, as they should, then I expect things to happen soon. Even if it's the middle of a war, the time is definitely now. Especially since the likeness to Obito is so similar. Obito should be shown that the hero does get the girl, and all things happen for a reason, but that the result can be good.

Just my two cents. I'm new here, so don't beat me up too badly.

Pretty much agree.
But i disagree that NS should happen during the war since shonen pairings arent canon tilll the very end.
There are maybe two years left, so i really dont see NS happening soon.

[James S Cassidy]

The walls of Naruto... Hm, yes, I suppose I can agree with that in some ways. The fact is Naruto is an underdeveloped character. You can chalk it up to complexity, but the fact is that he's never actually had time to explore himself as a person. What does he do when he's not on a mission? Play a prank? Not anymore. Which leaves eating ramen. That is Naruto's one and only hobby.

You can't even bring into consideration of becoming Hokage, because his mission and ninja way are self-incorporating of that. Naruto spent too much time feeling rejected and lonely. As a result, he was forced to cope with situations that forced him to accept maturity at much too young of an age. So he acted out, in the best ways he knew how because it garnered him attention.

I am afraid this has no correlation to what I am looking at. His maturity really has nothing to do with it so much is how he has handled situations. Even if he has matured, it has cost him so much that perhaps being "mature" is not what makes Naruto...well Naruto. Maturity is also a very subjective as even the most "mature" people can behave immature. So what constitutes to maturity? It all depends on what you feel makes people mature.

Naruto might be even be trying too hard to be mature as he was always best as a goofball rather than a "serious business" kind of guy. I might even go far as to say he was more flexible in his youth than he is now.

Being Hokage has very much to do with this because it's more than just goals or admiration. It's about the people who are under you. It's about understanding the people who follow you and listening to them. Naruto has a bad habit of not listening to other people because he feels his judgement is superior. This is evident when many give him similar advice, yet he doesn't listen. Itachi told him not to abandon his friends and that his father only became a good Hokage because of Kushina and the people who believed in him

If Naruto neglects that, then he is not a good leader nor will he ever be a Hokage. Saving Sasuke is not what is preventing him from being Hokage nor getting the love of his life, but the stubbornness to listen the ones around him. He is so focused on Sasuke, he is missing out on everything else. This goes with my other topic about Naruto's obsession and how even Itachi said that if he continues to do things the way he is doing, he would be no better than Obito himself. He has to change that aspect about him.

Is Naruto dumb? Not even in the slightest. Despite showing poor test scores, and a constant flow of what could be considered ADHD, Naruto excels in making good judgement. Even when overwhelmed and under-prepared, his ability to think quickly rivals the genius of Shikamaru. In fact, those who consider him dumb are often exploited in combat for having this idea.

Naruto's intelligence in test scores is not what I am really looking at. Even the most intelligent people can make the poorest decisions in life and be "dumb." Naruto has made some pretty poor decisions in his life and he is letting his self-righteous judgement get in the way of reality. He pushes everyone away instead of accepting everyone's help and refuses to let people into his life thinking he doesn't deserve it. This is an even poorer decision on his part because he is ignoring the advice people give him and sometimes down right rejects it.

Combat intelligence and intelligence in life issues are not the same thing. Shikamaru understood what life is about when Azuma showed him what the "king" was. The king is the future generations that will follow you. To learn from your mistakes and show them not to do the same. This is why Shikamaru is wiser than Naruto. Naruto still believes he can save everyone and he gets proven wrong by it. He even pushes the ones who want to help him away thinking only he should bear the burden.

Good judgement? Not always. Sometimes his judgement is the opposite of what he really should be doing and people have called him out on this.

Which leads me to my point. Naruto is not complex at all. He has no hobbies and very little interests. He is merely the victim of his own circumstance, having neither the experience or guidance to deal with his own personal problems. Even Kakashi has chosen not to help him with this. The result is Naruto is one dimensional, the possibilities of other aspect leave him confounded.

I don't know how far that excuse can go. Is Obito a victim of circumstance? Is Sasuke a victim of circumstance? We all make decisions in our lives and we all have to learn to accept the consequences to those choices. That's one of the lessons we learn growing up. Otherwise, with this you're basically saying Naruto is not old enough nor smart enough to figure life out which goes against with what you said up above with him making "good judgement," intelligence, and maturity.

Naruto has personal problems which he faces, but his insecurities keep him from seeing the truth at times. Again, going back to Itachi who chose to kill his village and didn't try to excuse it. He accepted being seen as the villain for what really was important.

Eventually, if Naruto wants to be Hokage, he has to learn to accept that he is going to fail. That he is going to fall at times and he has to get back up and that every decision he makes will have consequence. Neji's death kind of shows how Naruto is not prepared to face it. He was willing to give up just because of his death regardless of countless times he was told not to give up by his peers.

Even Neji said he understood what it meant to choose your own death. He understood that the choices we make are of our own. Shikamaru too. Shikamaru made choices that ended in failure and he had to learn that he will make mistakes. Even as a leader he knew that he would end up sending some soldiers to their death. Naruto chooses not to accept this. He believes/believed that it was all up to him. That it was his responsibility and his alone. He may even deny this still. He fluxes back and forth between these feelings he has.

Naruto is very complex, but to understand that complexity is very simple. I know, because I have been in situations very similar to Naruto's in my life and...well, I made choices also very similar and it lead to ad problems. I am just lucky my good friends didn't abandon me when I was proven wrong and that's Naruto's problem.

Which gives us the confession...

If you're going to take the good, then you have to be willing to take the bad. In my opinion, Sakura did not plan on confessing to Naruto at all. Yet she did, so there we have honesty. I ask myself, what if it had worked? Then what? Would they have returned to the village together and started dating? I don't think Sakura had thought that far ahead. She expressed her thoughts. Not only did she express them, she expressed them genuinely. The difference, and why Naruto reacted that way, is because she expressed thoughts, and not beliefs. There was no conviction in what she was saying, even though she accepted the reality of her situation.

Except she did plan it. She even said she knew the answer she was going to get, but did it anyway. I think she knew exactly what she was doing, but knew it wouldn't change anything. No offense, but you're making it sound like Sakura is dumb while Naruto is intelligent. I however see the opposite. Sakura, once knowing the truth, knew what was going to happen. Yeah she made poor choices, but she understood those were her choices. She didn't claim stupidity or feel she didn't need to excuse herself. She knew the risks entirely and was willing to let Naruto hate her just to free him from it.

Naruto on the other hand...

It's true, (and why Kishi, oh why) that Sakura still loves Sasuke. In what light, I couldn't say. Because I fail to understand it. Call it love at first sight, if you'd like, except it seems to happen to Sasuke with every girl that lays eyes on him. There is perhaps some difference when it comes to Sakura, however, as she is the closet to their barbie-ken doll dream. She saw the things that others did not, things that warranted understanding and sympathy. Things that allowed her to provide momentary comfort. Which she was even thanked for.

The problem is these are things you are not thanked for. These are things that come naturally in a relationship. Something that Sakura and Sasuke never developed. Something I consider to be impossible at this point in time. So in my mind, it is an author's mistake to continue to portray. Because out of all things, this is the most unrealistic based on the way it has been depicted.

Unrealistic? Hmm...I don't know. You sound like you are describing part 1 Sakura, not part 2. I don't see where you are coming from with this one. Plus Sakura is no more than 14-16 years old. Even when I was that age, things never really made sense and what I thought were good decisions ended up being bad. We also had the fact that Sakura is watching Naruto destroy himself and she feels like she can't do anything. That's until recently I believe.

Again, this is why 573 has such huge impact with me. Reading her be like that with confidence in her eyes made me see that she has grown and learned things about the situation at hand. She is not going to make the same mistakes twice and pretend that everything is okay when clearly they are not. I don't mean the obvious war and Sasuke and such, but Naruto himself.

This, I believe, is what is going to happen in the future. Sakura will save Naruto from himself.

And btw, Naruto isn't really that realistic either. Even more so than some other characters. Naruto has made the same mistake three times now and at times refuses to accept that there are things beyond his control. He got told to not abandon his friends and that they are not only fighting for him, but fighting for the sake of the future and yet he still refused to see this up until Neji died.

I am not even sure if he learned this lesson now because he could easily fall again and we haven't even gotten to Sasuke yet,

Going back, a part of Sakura had obviously expected Naruto's reaction. She even thanked him for it. She thanked him because she knew her resolve was weak, and in Naruto (for the ???th time???) she found it once more. So what I get out all of this is that Sakura thinks she "likes" Naruto. I am pretty sure she loves him. If we take the pudding as proof, it is written all over. My only doubt is that Kishi may not see the body of his work in it's entirety. Because that is the only conceivable way I see Naruto and Sakura not ending up together.

Thanked him? Mmmm...

Doesn't this kind of go against what you said about her up there with her doing things she didn't plan and etc? And if we are going to criticize her this heavy, what kind of person does this make Hinata who hasn't planned anything, who made poor choices, and hasn't accepted things. If we are going to examine how bad Kishi seeing his body of work, then Hinata is an even bigger screw up. At least Sakura pushed forward her development and tried to fix things even if she failed. Hinata seems to have made it worse and has no confidence in Naruto at all.

We also have to take into account of "stalling to the end" thing. As stated, many manga couples do not get together till the end. Especially true in harems. No matter what clues they drop or what facts they put in they still won't make it till the end. This often explains why some characters, while being smart as a whip, make dumb decisions out of no where or refuse to accept things for a while.

It's not a real good excuse, but it is a reason.

How do things progress from that point? I would think it has to be mutual. An actual honest-to-god date would go a very long way. Though I see the possibility for that as slim. If Naruto and Sakura are going to be together, as they should, then I expect things to happen soon. Even if it's the middle of a war, the time is definitely now. Especially since the likeness to Obito is so similar. Obito should be shown that the hero does get the girl, and all things happen for a reason, but that the result can be good.

Sakura needs to open Naruto's eyes first. No matter how much she confesses, he won't accept it. This is why Naruto is dumb. He refuses to accept things even though he wants them. This is what I mean by penetrating his "walls" so to speak. He needs to stop pushing people away and learn to accept truths about life even if it may hurt him.

There will always be pain in the world, but to close yourself off; trying to hide from it and not accepting it; will lead to him succumbing to it.

Yahiko said to overcome pain, you have to understand it and accept reality as it is. You can change it and never give up, but you have accept that you are going to fail. Take it as a learning lesson to keep going rather than falling back.

I like what Gordan Ramsey said once. "To begin to see what needs to be fixed, you must first need to accept that it is broken."

Edited by James S Cassidy, 22 January 2013 - 10:30 PM.

[xerorains]

Pretty much agree.
But i disagree that NS should happen during the war since shonen pairings arent canon tilll the very end.
There are maybe two years left, so i really dont see NS happening soon.

I think it has less to do with being a shonen then you may think. There is becoming a point where the suspense used in moments like 615 will be pointless. Even if it takes til the ending to announce the canon pairing, I am inclined to believe there is going to be a "clear path" before that.

[PhenixElite]

I think it has less to do with being a shonen then you may think. There is becoming a point where the suspense used in moments like 615 will be pointless. Even if it takes til the ending to announce the canon pairing, I am inclined to believe there is going to be a "clear path" before that.

Hmm im not sure, if kishi is doing it too early he will loose a lot of readers. I think he will keep throwing bones to the NH and SS fanbases. I think thats also the reason why sakuras feelings will be finally resolved during/after the Naruto, Sasuke fight and maybe hinatas character is also going to be resolved in the end (if her character wont be ignored from now on). That would be a way to keep all the fans till close to the end.

[xerorains]

Naruto might be even be trying too hard to be mature as he was always best as a goofball rather than a "serious business" kind of guy. I might even go far as to say he was more flexible in his youth than he is now.

I agree, but perhaps I didn't explain myself properly. Naruto deals with many of the mature themes that is considered "adult life as a shinobi". This is something he was subjected to as a very young child, thanks to Kurama inside of him.

Though he yearned to be a normal child, he was not allowed to. Which means he essentially misses out on everything that encompasses. Like getting a first crush, a first girlfriend, his first real kiss, getting his heart broken, rebounding through it all, and becoming a clearer, more concise, and vulnerable person.

All of these things contribute to the whole of "maturity" and considering he is missing almost all of those things, I consider him incompletely mature. So when I think of him dealing with Sakura, I call these things into question. I don't feel like he has been equipped to handle "true love".

Being Hokage has very much to do with...

Again, I guess I failed to explain myself properly. My apologies. What I meant was that being Hokage gives you no perspective as to what Naruto enjoys as a person. It's true, it is his primary goal, but even Hiruzen did not spend all day being "Third Hokage". It's a job, not a hobby. I point this out to show that Naruto lacks depth. It doesn't really tell you who Naruto is, just who he wants to be.

Good judgement? Not always. Sometimes his judgement is the opposite of what he really should be doing and people have called him out on this.

I wanted to point out that he is intelligent to show that I think he has a habit of acting dumb. Overall, I think Naruto has excellent judgement skills. No other shinobi would have convinced Nagato to revive the ninja of Konoha. He easily could have given in then, yet he did not. Instead the better path presented itself and he, and he only achieved it.

The funny part is that he actually did this alone. Perhaps if there were supporting characters around, he may have faltered so they could pick him up. I believe that Naruto would pick himself up regardless. This is the Uzumaki Naruto Ninja Chronicles, isn't it? He has to get back up. Whether there is a Hinata around or not.

I don't know how far that excuse can go. Is Obito a victim of circumstance? Is Sasuke a victim of circumstance?

Well, they are. I think that is what Kishi ultimately is saying with these stories. Especially by having Naruto say that the roles could be switched. With Gaara, Sasuke, and especially Obito. I just think Naruto's circumstance makes him ill equipped to deal with romantic feelings.

Except she did plan it. She even said she knew the answer she was going to get, but did it anyway. I think she knew exactly what she was doing, but knew it wouldn't change anything. No offense, but you're making it sound like Sakura is dumb while Naruto is intelligent.

Again, my apologies. When I think of the moment of Sai telling Sakura how Naruto feels, I can't help but think that Sakura must have known all along. How could she not? Naruto was not exactly skilled at hiding his feelings from her. Maybe the word "plan" is the wrong one to use for this. She confessed. Before Sai had mentioned anything, as far as she was concerned, everything seemed okay.

Then her whole world got turned upside down. I don't associate stupidity with Sakura, I recognized the fact that she struggles. Because she is a heroine. The primary trait of heroes and heroines, is their ability to struggle, and still succeed.

I am also not implying that she is acting out of obsession, I am only commenting that I cannot understand why she would love Sasuke at all. I am also, with great pain, accepting the fact that she does love Sasuke. I cannot argue that she does, but I can perhaps judge the extent. I feel that the extent is irrelevant, though, because I feel like "at all" is "too much".

Again, this is why 573 has such huge impact with me. Reading her be like that with confidence in her eyes made me see that she has grown and learned things about the situation at hand.

I agree. I cannot wait to the fruits of 573, and I think they are due soon. Perhaps any issue. It would make little sense to depict this unless it would matter. The order of the characters thoughts may be a timeline.

This, I believe, is what is going to happen in the future. Sakura will save Naruto from himself.

I think of a Linkin Park song when I see this. Actually one of my favorites. I am just not convinced that either of them need saving. Just more confrontation. More... experience? I can't see the dangle approach working too much further.

Thanked him? Mmmm...

Doesn't this kind of go against what you said about her up there with her doing things she didn't plan and etc? And if we are going to criticize her this heavy, what kind of person does this make Hinata who hasn't planned anything, who made poor choices, and hasn't accepted things.

Whoa, I am not criticizing anybody. I am just curious as to how much Kishi remembers everything he's written. Over the course of 10 years, it is inhuman to be able to recall specific moments and their intention behind them. The way he conducts his elusive interviews, comes across to me, as if he does not read into what he writes as much as the rest of us.
I love Sakura as a character, and sincerely want her to shine. She is, after all, the heroine, and she will defeat any challenge laid before her. It is my inevitable hope this will be any obstacle (regardless what it is) that keeps her from Naruto.

Again, I apologize for not explaining myself properly, or if you felt insulted even in the slightest. This was not my intention, and I will try to explain myself better next time.