@catsi
Okay, I'm glad that you apologized...I think.
But from the way it seemed to me this arguement went beyond your original review. And I mean Fanfics come in all shapes and sizes and the characters bases are used. That's why there are Alternate universes and future fics.
But this arguement we're having is like arguing fiction with nonfiction. When ciardha accused NaruSaku fiction writers of distortion of character and saying those authors disrespecting Kishimoto's wishes that implies a form of arrogance in the fact someone believes they know what another person thinks more than another on presumptions or assumptions.
Anyone crosses a line when you act like you know better then another person.
Saying 90% of fics portray Sakura a certain way a person dislikes and then to say that the estimate is conservative is a sign of arrogance. I can say Hinata will be more powerful then Sakura 90% percent of the time in fanfiction, do I know that? No I do not, but I say that because its a belief of a point of view and opinion.
Here's my question, if you had know the author of the story was on here would you have posted your original thoughts. I don't have to say anything but it seems you didn't take into account that the author was here. And ciardha went out of her way to declare her disdain for narusaku fanfic
QUOTE (ciardha)
Really? Naruto, rescuing Sakura from Sasuke, Sakura looking at Naruto thankful and with love in her eyes, Naruto's lingering contact after he sets her down, etc.... Then the openness in their interactions on the return to Konoha, Sakura's defense of Naruto to their friends, and then the Ichiraku scene with yet more openness between them, Naruto's new mental image of Sakura in chapter 505....
This is the problem in a part of narusaku fandom. Instead of looking at what's happening in the manga, you know story canon, they decide some fanfic that writes Sakura in a more negative aspect of her part 1 self is accurate. Uh no.
Hey I don't like it either but most people tend to watch the anime more and Shippuden hasn't made its course. Also Kishi is at fault for Sakura's character in part 1, much better part 2.
QUOTE (ciardha)
Also iluvtoshi has Sasuke not only with a woman but with kids? Uh no. That's certainly waaaayyy off character. Sasuke has made it absolutely clear his idea of restoring his clan has absolutely nothing to do with getting together with anyone. Sasuke as he is right now, as you claim iluvtoshi is basing things off of, wants to kill everyone....
In conclusion- Nope, not in the slightest related to current canon.
It's fanfiction the author has the right to make a Future Fic the way they want.
Catsi when Madz feelings were hurt everyone began to encourage her not to stop, but ciardha didn't stop because tricksie was trying to defend Madz by saying.
QUOTE (tricksie)
And let me make this clear: PEOPLE READ FANFIC BECAUSE THEY WANT A VARIATION ON CANON!
I think people read fanfiction because they want more then just a variation on canon, some read them to find creativity.
QUOTE (ciardha)
Really? Then why do 90% of narusaku fanfic writers write Sakura in the same OOC for the manga characterization, the same few negative variants to the way she's been written since part 1? Doesn't sound like much variation to me. If you are writing a narusaku fanfic especially, you look like you haven't read the story if you write Sakura in the same narrow range of more negative than manga depiction.
If they want "variety" it sure is strange how so few narusaku fanfic writers actually do something "original" and write Sakura even the slightest bit more positive than Kishimoto does- instead they use the same old negative mischaracterizations everyone else does.
.....I blame fanfic, even fanfic that claims to be narusaku even more than the anime for the grossly negative image Western online Naruto fandom has of Sakura.
This isn't personally directed at madz, it's a criticism of narusaku fanfic in general.
Is it a criticism against us? Because it seems that Sakura's personality is the least distorted in NaruSaku fiction, Sakura in general fanfiction I could agree with, but this is why people get offended because it is percieved as an attack on all.
It's fan fiction, the fan has the freedom to write it the way they want if the others disagree or agree they review it, but to say the writer should go beyond and make the story intended to be like the writers what's the different between that and just writing filler?
Let's skip ahead to Jenskott
QUOTE (ciardha)
Thank you! I was thinking about making those points too, but wanted to talk about how the negative distortions of their characters in fanfic upsets the writers who create the charcaters and that's why so many dislike fanfic (including some manga writers)
But then that goes against the ideas of the individual has and their imagination. Fan fiction as a daydream on paper, people write it because they want to. Isn't fanfiction also a gateway to become a better writer as well? People use characters and characterization as tools. If people mischaracterize the specific character its probably that they have an already formed opinion by their own interpretation.
QUOTE (cont.)
.... Jenskott's points are exactly why I read fanfic and why I get disgusted when I start to read a so called narusaku fanfic someone recommends just to find yet another that distorts Sakura's character in a negative way. And if anything, 90% is a conservative percentage. It's a very tiny minority of narusaku fanfic that even comes close to canon characterization of Sakura, much less one truly respects the story and writes the character a bit better than canon. Sakura suffers from negative mischaracterization in narusaku fanfic more than any other character- even the shipper rival romantic characters of Hinata and Sasuke.
Ciardha wanted to make the point that Professional writers hate fanfiction, but she did it in it in a way that offended most people.
QUOTE (ciardha)
I've heard a number of professional writers say almost exactly this as to why they hate fanfic. An example that I still remember 11 years later- "If they can't write my characters like they are, why are they stealing my story? Write your own stories!" Blunt quote from Warren Ellis (with the F word edited out for this forum...) on why he hates fanfic, promptly echoed by Lea Hernandez and other professional writers on the Warren Ellis Forum in 2000. Although Hernandez went even further and stated as far as she was concerned all fanfic with her characters were banned and she would consider legal action if she discovered any.
As I said, even some manga writers are edging toward this opinion of fanfic, all because of the negative mischaracterization of their characters. Kishimoto has made it clear he doesn't like any negative mischaracteriations of Sakura. He hasn't said that about any other character but he's made it clear that he doesn't want it about Sakura. So let's make it blunt- You are directly disrespecting Kishimoto's wishes for how he wants Sakura to be seen by fans when you write fanfic with her where you depict her more negatively than in canon.
Right there.
Saying that line right there, would have everyone here up in arms and declare arrogance. It angers me as well, I write fanfiction but I also use it as a tool for my career path. I like to write NaruSaku because I have a preference. I've had a review when I was called a Hinata hater, but I can have the same interpretations others had here that she's being seen higher then she should.
But by saying that it struck a holier than thou tone. That her view of the situation, her opinion was the superior. The rest of this argument is no longer of consequence because the belief that fan writers are disrespectful
QUOTE (kim)
Wow, ciardha. Since you have such high criteria about fanfics, you should really recommend us some that you find good.
QUOTE (tricksie)
This is arrogance itself. You have no right to speak for the author, pull statistics from the air or to lambast anyone else's fanfic because it doesn't meet up with your opinion.
You have hijacked a review thread to get on a soapbox about your beliefs, AND you have used one author and one story as your whipping post. An author who has now opted out of H&E. Do not pat yourself on the back or try to justify this as educating about N/S.
If you want to continue in this vein, do us all a favor and open a separate topic about it. There we can have a discussion that does not ride on the back of a review about a specific story.
@ jenskott: The issue is not posting whether you dislike a story or not. People post their dissenting reviews all the time. Polite, constructive criticism was left behind long ago. It has now moved into loud, acidic opinions that encompass the whole scope of fanfic, including what the author believes. Time for a new thread.
Lastly, this is a haven for people who like NS. We are all on the same side. The story this issue is about is a naru/saku fic and author that are incredibly popular.
Stop beating up other people with opinions. If anyone feels like it's a topic worth discussing, in a mature way, be accountable and open another thread about fanfic issue.
QUOTE (Omega)
@ciardha - that's what you don't understand. It is not wrong. Try and justify it all you want, it does not matter. If the authors have an issue with fanfic than they will make it clear, otherwise you have absolutely no right, and I mean no right to declare something wrong because you are not Kishimoto. So until that day happens keep your reviews constructive and not degrading like you have done; which incidentally caused a member of HxE to feel so bad that as tricksie said "opted out." This is a place for people to have fun and have a good time, not for them to feel like they haven't accomplished anything.
QUOTE (Soupy)
Likewise, not understanding the flaws in a character, namely Sakura, is also disrespectful to the author. You are simply the other side of the coin and it certainly doesn't make you more right about interpreting Sakura. If you can't take a moment to understand her flaws and instead always deny or put the blame on other characters or the fans themselves, how can you say you know what the author intends? You have, time and time again, said anyone who thinks negatively of Sakura is not a true fan. I wonder then, how does that make you any different than the uber-Hinata fans that see no wrong in her character?
And even more, if Kishimoto intended something different for Sakura, it was up to him to portray her in a way that would cause no doubt for the audience. That is his job as author. It is not the audiences fault if they do not see what he sees.
My point is only this, this whole thing. Started because harry asked for the opinion for a story, but you made a small rant, then ciardha agreed but as the debate continued Madz found out and asked us to stop.
Someone decided to continue because of a fault in another's opinion, one thing led to another and here we are. I have to agree with trix that ciardha doesn't have the right to pass judgement upon everyone.
Omega paid attention to her arguement of the authors so he saw something.
Soupy is right as well that you can't remove the flaws in a character as well, isn't that what we like about Sakura as well? Because she's flawed? It's also because Kishimoto who has flaws with heroines.
And by going as far as to accuse our own writers of something how does that make you any different from uber-Hinata fans that see only the surface. Also if Kishimoto has a problem with the character he created the interpretations by not fixing a concrete point.
Look all I'm trying to say is the reason for this arguement are situated in a setting that probably wasn't the best place to begin with. Harry could've better started this in another thread but I think he was looking for a quick opinion. This Fic listing thread turned into a soapbox and went places that they probably shouldn't have gone.
Look all my point is to your response is try to leave your comfort zone once and awhile. Because it sounds like nothing was learned from this.
Now enough of that, I'm going back to writing my stuff and finishing the last of the July 4 Nachos. Nachos!
Edited by Insurrection, 05 July 2011 - 06:58 AM.