681 replies to this topic

[Dreamer]

Loved it.

Naruto and Sasuke are the exact same as Hashirama and Madara to the t. I believe at some point Hashirama will give Naruto his powers to help fight against Sasuke and free the bijuu. Also liked how Shikamaru Konoha's future general and friend of Naruto might play a bigger role. Poor Sakura her mind still wants the old Sasuke while her heart is telling her different. let's see if Garaa will also play another role in this as well.

[Kster95]

I was thinking that the size of Katsuyu depends on how strong the summoner is. The stronger the summoner, the bigger she will be ? Does that make any sense ?

That makes perfect sense and is most likely how it works lol 

[redragon88]

I'm still not sure what Kishi plans to do with Sakura at this point. Her fake smile could foreshadow her doing something in regards to Sasuke or it could just be for the emotional factor that she's meant to play in the story.

 

I can't figure out if she's faking the smile to not let people know about her suspicion of Sasuke for some secret reason or if it's just because she's sad that Sasuke isn't really all good as much as she wants it to be.

 

I really wonder how this will play into the resolution of her feelings. Some fans will probably assume is just Sakura being sad that Sasuke might not be good since she loves him, but I'm hoping there's more to it then that, especially after what happened in 631 and also her development in this volume.

 

I don't want this to just be more of Sakura's sadness for Sasuke shown in the Summit arc and 540. We don't need more of the same from her, she needs to move forward.

[James S Cassidy]

Thanks for the detailed reply, James I think Sasuke will mirror Danzo. I'm not sure if Danzo's evil, but I hate him anyway.

 

Maybe Naruto doesn't notice Sasuke's intentions because his intentions are good, but his methods are not. The evil Naruto senses is not their actions, it's the darkness in their soul. (Though the darkness does reflect the thoughts and actions)

 

Sasuke can still very well be evil, Kishi still draws Sasuke with shadows all over his face after all.

 

I am just trying to find a reason as to why Naruto doesn't suspect him, because his face tells me he doesn't. He looks like a question mark.

 

Unfortunately, Naruto falls under the "Gullible hero syndrome." No matter what Sasuke does, Naruto would always forgive him. Sadly, after a while it leads some to question the hero whether or not he truly knows what is best. It;s like Batman and the Joker. Joker kills people every time he does a plan. Batman could kill him easily at times, yet he doesn't due to some righteous moral system. I believe even one time people question whether Batman was really a hero if he let Joker kill so many people. What is more important, one man or the entire city?

So I guess this is a question for Naruto. What is more important, Sasuke or Konoha? If he had to choose to save one, which one is more important? Hashirama had to "kill" Madara cause he chose to save the village.

It is odd that Naruto hasn't detected Sasuke's "evil" intention. Perhaps it is one of these:

http://tvtropes.org/...tAboutHisPowers

 

I like the blerb on Naruto
In Naruto we have the fact that virtually the entire cast should be able to transform into anything or make illusionary clones of themselves. The latest times these abilities are brought up are when Temari plans to use a clone to act as a diversion then strike immediately after (which is implied to win her the battle had she been able to carry it out) and Naruto transforming clones into rocks to hide them (which is very successful against even a VERY powerful opponent). It's clear these abilities would still be useful even at the level the story is currently at, but instead all characters stick to their gimmick and their gimmick alone (compare to Bleach where while people stick to swords primarily, they will still use basic Kido abilities when it would help).

• The only reason the heroes in Naruto even stand a chance is because Big Bad Obito Uchiha forgot he could easily teleport in, kidnap all the Jinchuuriki, and teleport out without anyone being any the wiser. Hell, he could have kidnapped Naruto as a baby or any time in the thirteen years before the series began but forgot he could do so.

 

 

 

I like how sometimes we philosophical in a manga that I doubt at times that was the message the story was probably trying to tell. Though to be fair, I do believe Kishi wants us to question what is good and evil, so I guess this discussion makes in sense in a Naruto thread.

 

On the bolded part, I actually thought that did happen. Wasn't Obito the one who took control of the leader of Mist, and possibly was the reason of why they kill certain people of their clan. My memory is actually pretty hazy on the font, however I don't think it was ever brought up, or confirmed. Just a theory thrown around here, but it sounded like it would make sense of the context of the series and the character.

 

Well, Sushi asked. I rather much call Sasuke a villain and be done with it. XD

Bolded: Yeah eventually, but the point was that he did this over time not just off screen. Like Sasuke, going on this search and dedicating his life to find the man who killed Rin only to realize the whole Kakashi thing. You see what I mean? Sasuke's story would have fit Obito's much better while Sasuke actually becomes this villain who tried to construct the world the way he wants it.

Edited by James S Cassidy, 20 June 2013 - 01:07 AM.

[ALESSE]

Well, got two chapters left to see what's next. Next chapter will be focusing on these two, so I want to see where this is going. I really hope it's a genjutsu.

Yup. Same here. I really hope that's a genjutsu. I think things are gonna get even more complicated. There's gonna be some more crazy turn of events. And sasuke is gonna be the main instigator of it all. I still think he's gonna some how take control of the juubi. And I do see him critically injuring naruto in this fight. Before there main match up. And I love how Sakura was being developed.

[Weltall]

Can someone explain me what can justify Naruto's and Sakura's devotion to Sasuke when he doesn't give a kitten about them and their feelings ? The little bonding in part 1 doesn't justify this obsession, this is convoluted and forced . Sure Sakura keep on lying to yourself than just admit that the guy who treated you like dirt, tried to murder you various times and wanted to destroy your village and kill your family along is untrustable. I think Sakura and Naruto have a bigger mental issue than Sasuke has, Sasuke has a real trauma but Naruto and Sakura don't have this excuse.

This just shows how much Sasuke is toxic to the other characters and to the plot in general : destruction of Itachi to make him a walking contradiction who lubbed too much his brother and a so called hero, destruction of Naruto who has been the biggest Sasuke's fangirl in part 2, Sakura's devolpment during part 2 totally ruined in part 2 because she still lubs Sasuke Kun, creation of 3 characters who have no real reasons to exist but who are just there following Sasuke like dogs no matter what he does to them or how bad he treats them and the last one which is the worst destruction of one of the best villains in the manga who is just turning to be a Sasuke's fangirl too, poor Oro. I don’t need to talk about his negative influence on the plot which is nothing more than a sharingan feast, hatred, sharingan hax, revenge more hatred and now this crap about Hokage and change of new system.

In conclusion this manga needs to end fast so I can finally move on from my last terrible addiction.

[MangaReader]

an someone explain me what can justify Naruto's and Sakura's devotion to Sasuke when he doesn't give a kitten about them and their feelings ? The little bonding in part 1 doesn't justify this obsession, this is convoluted and forced . Sure Sakura keep on lying to yourself than just admit that the guy who treated you like dirt, tried to murder you various times and wanted to destroy your village and kill your family along is untrustable. I think Sakura and Naruto have a bigger mental issue than Sasuke has, Sasuke has a real trauma but Naruto and Sakura don't have this excuse.

This just shows how much Sasuke is toxic to the other characters and to the plot in general : destruction of Itachi to make him a walking contradiction who lubbed too much his brother and a so called hero, destruction of Naruto who has been the biggest Sasuke's fangirl in part 2, Sakura's devolpment during part 2 totally ruined in part 2 because she still lubs Sasuke Kun, creation of 3 characters who have no real reasons to exist but who are just there following Sasuke like dogs no matter what he does to them or how bad he treats them and the last one which is the worst destruction of one of the best villains in the manga who is just turning to be a Sasuke's fangirl too, poor Oro. I don’t need to talk about his negative influence on the plot which is nothing more than a sharingan feast, hatred, sharingan hax, revenge more hatred and now this crap about Hokage and change of new system.

In conclusion this manga needs to end fast so I can finally move on from my last terrible addiction.

 

Typical Shonen manga...that's all that you can say that counts as justification. No matter how evil the best friend becomes, the main hero always believes in him, not so much the heroin (Sakura clearly still has her doubts)

 

Otherwise, just chalk it up as bad writing in general for a majority of Japanese writing :/ 

Edited by MangaReader, 20 June 2013 - 04:39 AM.

[Weltall]

Typical Shonen manga...that's all that you can say that counts as justification. No matter how evil the best friend becomes, the main hero always believes in him, not so much the heroin (Sakura clearly still has her doubts)
 
Otherwise, just chalk it up as bad writing in general for a majority of Japanese writing :/

come on I read a lot of japanese manga and nothing comes close to this crap, if at least team 7 had a real bond I could understand but that's hardly the case they were in the process of becoming friends but still had their issue and a long way to go before trusting each other fully but now it's all about unbreakable (and stupid forced and convoluted) are unbreakable even if it makes no sense. Am I supposed to relate to this drama ? Sorry I can't I just find them utterly pathetic and the 3 main characters are the worst main characters ever in their own personal way each one of them brings a new different brand of fail, at least they complement each other perfectly in that aspect. Besides you hardly answered my post but thanks for the answer anyway, to each his own I guess.
I am out, don't wanna ruin the party.

Edited by Weltall, 20 June 2013 - 02:41 AM.

[Zatheko]

Can someone explain me what can justify Naruto's and Sakura's devotion to Sasuke when he doesn't give a kitten about them and their feelings ? The little bonding in part 1 doesn't justify this obsession, this is convoluted and forced . Sure Sakura keep on lying to yourself than just admit that the guy who treated you like dirt, tried to murder you various times and wanted to destroy your village and kill your family along is untrustable. I think Sakura and Naruto have a bigger mental issue than Sasuke has, Sasuke has a real trauma but Naruto and Sakura don't have this excuse.

This just shows how much Sasuke is toxic to the other characters and to the plot in general : destruction of Itachi to make him a walking contradiction who lubbed too much his brother and a so called hero, destruction of Naruto who has been the biggest Sasuke's fangirl in part 2, Sakura's devolpment during part 2 totally ruined in part 2 because she still lubs Sasuke Kun, creation of 3 characters who have no real reasons to exist but who are just there following Sasuke like dogs no matter what he does to them or how bad he treats them and the last one which is the worst destruction of one of the best villains in the manga who is just turning to be a Sasuke's fangirl too, poor Oro. I don’t need to talk about his negative influence on the plot which is nothing more than a sharingan feast, hatred, sharingan hax, revenge more hatred and now this crap about Hokage and change of new system.

In conclusion this manga needs to end fast so I can finally move on from my last terrible addiction.

It's just character.

 

Their are some people even in real life that wouldn't give up on a family member even if they did wrong things in their life. Naruto is like that and since he consideres Sasuke to be like his brother I don't think he wants to give up hope that he can change. Same applies for Sakura although I do believe she was ready to let go at the kage summit arc but Naruto's words made her keep believing.

[TouKen4Life3g]

It's just character.

 

Their are some people even in real life that wouldn't give up on a family member even if they did wrong things in their life. Naruto is like that and since he consideres Sasuke to be like his brother I don't think he wants to give up hope that he can change. Same applies for Sakura although I do believe she was ready to let go at the kage summit arc but Naruto's words made her keep believing.

You know something I just realized. It's sad that Sai said that since you're with him back in Team 7 days, what do she think and well, her response wasn't good. That said that's even more sad that even the reunion didn't make her "smile". It's as if to say, "Yeah, our relationship has been bad, even now makes nothing good out of it." Wow, this is more anti than I can even imagine. Sad to see the real smile from your sig. Oh man...

[Don-kun]

It's just character.

 

Their are some people even in real life that wouldn't give up on a family member even if they did wrong things in their life. Naruto is like that and since he consideres Sasuke to be like his brother I don't think he wants to give up hope that he can change. Same applies for Sakura although I do believe she was ready to let go at the kage summit arc but Naruto's words made her keep believing.

No offense but that was a terrible comparison, Family is Family and most of the times they look up for each other, Naruto and Sasuke not only didn't have a good relationship Sasuke call him out on his obsession to save him many time, tell him his brother is Itachi and no one else plus he try to kill him many times and refuse to be his friend, so if there is one thing I'm extremely critical about Naruto character is his obsession towards Sasuke and the fact that he would willingly throw all of Sasuke crap under the rug and act like if nothing wrong ever happen, but he will go against anyone that commit bad things.

So to me when it comes to Sasuke Naruto becomes one of the most hypocrite characters in this Manga.

 

You know something I just realized. It's sad that Sai said that since you're with him back in Team 7 days, what do she think and well, her response wasn't good. That said that's even more sad that even the reunion didn't make her "smile". It's as if to say, "Yeah, our relationship has been bad, even now makes nothing good out of it." Wow, this is more anti than I can even imagine. Sad to see the real smile from your sig. Oh man...

....

[KnS]

Really good chapter.  A lot happened and yet nothing was resolved. 

 

About Orochimaru's team.  That Karin was taken to heal Tsunade -- no surprise.  Karin and Suigetsu still arguing -- no surprise.  That Karin is a damaged girl with masochistic tendencies who is still in love with Sasuke -- no surprise.  That Orochimaru is cooling his heels and willing to watch and see what happens with Sasuke?  Not much of a surprise, considering that Sasuke has always been his goal.

 

In a way, Orochimaru's methods remind me of serial killer pathology.  He's got kinks.  He experiments with human life.  He holds on to bodies and body parts, wears the faces of his victims, and seeks the perfect body to help him achieve immortality.  But he's patient and plans things out.  Has he really changed?

 

To me, Orochimaru's "people change" conversation with Tsunade was the most interesting thing in the chapter.  It starts with Tsunade asking Orochimaru why he's "helping" after he has already betrayed the village, and he basically says he's changed his mind about how he wants to pursue his goals. 

 

That is exactly what just happened with Sasuke -- everyone wants to know why he's "helping" after he has already betrayed the village, and he basically says he's changed his mind about how he wants to pursue his goals.

 

Then there's this part:

 

T: "I guess you've changed..."

O: "People change.  Either that, or they die before they can.  [Jiraiya] died just the way he was..."

T: "Orochimaru, if you had changed earlier, Jiraiya would be alive now..."

O: "In that case, *he* might have changed...  Like us Sannin... things don't always go the way we want... We can't be a monolith forever.  Something eventually changes."

 

That series of statements could be interpreted about six different ways, and I wonder what Kishimoto is really getting at.  He certainly didn't string it together that way by accident.  He put it in the story right at the point where the parallel between the Sannin and Team 7 is at its height.

 

Is it nothing more than a simple parallel between Orochimaru and Sasuke being the ones to change their minds?  Is it supposed to be a parallel between Tsunade and Sakura, with Tsunade supposedly accepting Orochimaru's help the way Sakura is supposedly accepting Sasuke's help?  Is it meant to suggest that Naruto will die, like Jiraiya, if he doesn't change his beliefs or his loyalty?  Hmm.

 

About Sakura-chan.  She's definitely lying about being "happy" Sasuke has come back for the reasons he has, and also lying about trusting him.  However, she apparently wants the rest of them to think she's happy and trusting. 

 

The look on Sai and Shikamaru's faces suggests a concern or even mistrust of Sakura loyalties, and she seems to be encouraging it.  The question is... why?  What's she thinking she can do?

 

Gaara!  I'm so glad to see him again.  \o/

 

I can't believe this will be the end of Kakashi.  Just... no.

Edited by KnS, 20 June 2013 - 03:45 AM.

[Zatheko]

No offense but that was a terrible comparison, Family is Family and most of the times they look up for each other, Naruto and Sasuke not only didn't have a good relationship Sasuke call him out on his obsession to save him many time, tell him his brother is Itachi and no one else plus he try to kill him many times and refuse to be his friend, so if there is one thing I'm extremely critical about Naruto character is his obsession towards Sasuke and the fact that he would willingly throw all of Sasuke crap under the rug and act like if nothing wrong ever happen, but he will go against anyone that commit bad things.

So to me when it comes to Sasuke Naruto becomes one of the most hypocrite characters in this Manga.

 

....

Oh I know it was, I was just pointing out that maybe Naruto consideres it the same thing, he never had a real family growing up so to him Sasuke is really like a brother.

 

I don't really like his obsession with Sasuke either but I am just trying to come up with ways that would justify a reason for him wanting to hold on to hope for so long.

[megi]

Really good chapter.  A lot happened and yet nothing was resolved. 

 

About Orochimaru's team.  That Karin was taken to heal Tsunade -- no surprise.  Karin and Suigetsu still arguing -- no surprise.  That Karin is a damaged girl with masochistic tendencies who is still in love with Sasuke -- no surprise.  That Orochimaru is cooling his heels and willing to watch and see what happens with Sasuke?  Not much of a surprise, considering that Sasuke has always been his goal.

 

In a way, Orochimaru's methods remind me of serial killer pathology.  He's got kinks.  He experiments with human life.  He holds on to bodies and body parts, wears the faces of his victims, and seeks the perfect body to help him achieve immortality.  But he's patient and plans things out.  Has he really changed?

 

To me, Orochimaru's "people change" conversation with Tsunade was the most interesting thing in the chapter.  It starts with Tsunade asking Orochimaru why he's "helping" after he has already betrayed the village, and he basically says he's changed his mind about how he wants to pursue his goals. 

 

That is exactly what just happened with Sasuke -- everyone wants to know why he's "helping" after he has already betrayed the village, and he basically says he's changed his mind about how he wants to pursue his goals.

 

Then there's this part:

 

T: "I guess you've changed..."

O: "People change.  Either that, or they die before they can.  [Jiraiya] died just the way he was..."

T: "Orochimaru, if you had changed earlier, Jiraiya would be alive now..."

O: "In that case, *he* might have changed...  Like us Sannin... things don't always go the way we want... We can't be a monolith forever.  Something eventually changes."

 

That series of statements could be interpreted about six different ways, and I wonder what Kishimoto is really getting at.  He certainly didn't string it together that way by accident.  He put it in the story right at the point where the parallel between the Sannin and Team 7 is at its height.

 

Is it nothing more than a simple parallel between Orochimaru and Sasuke being the ones to change their minds?  Is it supposed to be a parallel between Tsunade and Sakura, with Tsunade supposedly accepting Orochimaru's help the way Sakura is supposedly accepting Sasuke's help?  Is it meant to suggest that Naruto will die, like Jiraiya, if he doesn't change his beliefs or his loyalty?  Hmm.

 

About Sakura-chan.  She's definitely lying about being "happy" Sasuke has come back for the reasons he has, and also lying about trusting him.  However, she apparently wants the rest of them to think she's happy and trusting. 

 

The look on Sai and Shikamaru's faces suggests a concern or even mistrust of Sakura loyalties, and she seems to be encouraging it.  The question is... why?  What's she thinking she can do?

 

Gaara!  I'm so glad to see him again.  \o/

 

I can't believe this will be the end of Kakashi.  Just... no.

 

Wow, you've brought up a lot of good points! Talk about the Sannin between Tsunade and Orochimaru reflects on the "new" Sannin's relationship right now.

 

The question with Sakura is definitely why. I really haven't come up with anything that I felt really strongly for yet. I am hoping to see more team 7 interaction.

 

I don't think this is the end for Kakashi. Well, I don't see Kakashi going as long as Obito is around. I feel like Kakashi has to change Obito in a way before he dies.

[StriderC]

Just thought I'd post the message i wrote to my bud Slextrem.

 

 

 

Andddd seems like things are moving along quite well for us. I love the contrast between how Sakura has handled the Summit compared to Karin even though it's quite unfortunate for Karin. I didn't like how Kishi cut her brows to resemble Tsunade though.   That wasn't necessary. lol

 

And yes, she's been getting a nice chunk of awesome development for sure. I love how involved she's gonna likely be in the coming chapters. It's kind of crazy how Sasuke has just worked with them when you think about it. Anyway, I wonder what Sasuke's gonna do next. I don't see the "betrayal" like everyone else does, but I do see him doing stuff that's not gonna sit well with Sakura and Naruto. 

 

Another thing is how it all links together. The panel of her thinking about Sasuke in the tent and her expression. The fact that she likely hasn't gotten over that he tried to kill her. It's all tying together, and it's proving to the fans that her "love" for him after the murder attempt is something that likely hasn't been swept under the rug, and I love that. Possible things coming her way IMO.

 

- She may feel the need to train after this. She may gain her own ability which will likely be Slug Sage Mode. I honestly don't want her to pull out the jutsu that Tsunade has with her seal especially considering if she suffers a severe blow, she'll lose years off of her life thanks to the technique, so that's something I definitely will pass on. Slug Sage seems more fitting.

 

- Of course her feelings for Sasuke's gonna be resolved eventually.

 

- Sasuke's objective. She'll play a nice part in that bit. Seems she may be active in it all as well.   Looking forward to this.

 

-Her growing feelings for Naruto, or her shift in her feelings from Sasuke to Naruto completely.

 

-Situation with Kakashi.

 

-Maybe something with Tsunade but this links to her training I suppose. 

 

I think Kishi is hinting at a powerup for Sakura.   Sakura's been pretty damn amazing these past chapters. Sorry for rambling! 

•  

[Cherry-Bloss93]

So I was thinking...

 

Didn't Jiraya have a page in the manga where he went over all of his failures? Remember the one where he specifically said "I couldn't save my sensei"?

 

Well, we know that Naruto is a parallel to Jiraya and is supposed to surpass him in all things, right? So, wouldn't that mean that Naruto will save Kakashi? Or do you think he already indirectly did this in the Pain arc?

[Don-kun]

Really good chapter.  A lot happened and yet nothing was resolved. 
 
About Orochimaru's team.  That Karin was taken to heal Tsunade -- no surprise.  Karin and Suigetsu still arguing -- no surprise.  That Karin is a damaged girl with masochistic tendencies who is still in love with Sasuke -- no surprise.  That Orochimaru is cooling his heels and willing to watch and see what happens with Sasuke?  Not much of a surprise, considering that Sasuke has always been his goal.
 
In a way, Orochimaru's methods remind me of serial killer pathology.  He's got kinks.  He experiments with human life.  He holds on to bodies and body parts, wears the faces of his victims, and seeks the perfect body to help him achieve immortality.  But he's patient and plans things out.  Has he really changed?
 
To me, Orochimaru's "people change" conversation with Tsunade was the most interesting thing in the chapter.  It starts with Tsunade asking Orochimaru why he's "helping" after he has already betrayed the village, and he basically says he's changed his mind about how he wants to pursue his goals. 
 
That is exactly what just happened with Sasuke -- everyone wants to know why he's "helping" after he has already betrayed the village, and he basically says he's changed his mind about how he wants to pursue his goals.
 
Then there's this part:
 
T: "I guess you've changed..."
O: "People change.  Either that, or they die before they can.  [Jiraiya] died just the way he was..."
T: "Orochimaru, if you had changed earlier, Jiraiya would be alive now..."
O: "In that case, *he* might have changed...  Like us Sannin... things don't always go the way we want... We can't be a monolith forever.  Something eventually changes."
 
That series of statements could be interpreted about six different ways, and I wonder what Kishimoto is really getting at.  He certainly didn't string it together that way by accident.  He put it in the story right at the point where the parallel between the Sannin and Team 7 is at its height.
 
Is it nothing more than a simple parallel between Orochimaru and Sasuke being the ones to change their minds?  Is it supposed to be a parallel between Tsunade and Sakura, with Tsunade supposedly accepting Orochimaru's help the way Sakura is supposedly accepting Sasuke's help?  Is it meant to suggest that Naruto will die, like Jiraiya, if he doesn't change his beliefs or his loyalty?  Hmm.
 
About Sakura-chan.  She's definitely lying about being "happy" Sasuke has come back for the reasons he has, and also lying about trusting him.  However, she apparently wants the rest of them to think she's happy and trusting. 
 
The look on Sai and Shikamaru's faces suggests a concern or even mistrust of Sakura loyalties, and she seems to be encouraging it.  The question is... why?  What's she thinking she can do?
 
Gaara!  I'm so glad to see him again.  \o/
 
I can't believe this will be the end of Kakashi.  Just... no.

I never felt so bother or disturbed after reading any of your post, after reading most of them am able to tie the events with the story perfectly but this time something doesn't sit well, Orochimaru said that he always feel like if he needed to create a wind AKA conflict but now he doesn't want to die before witnessing Sasuke future wind.

635

http://mangastream.c...uto/11587596/13

To fallow your interpretation you say Tsunade and Sakura parallel suppose to show that both want to believe that Oro and Sasuke changed but if that was the case then Sakura would really be honest about it, in Tsunade's part you cannot question if she trusted Orochimaru or not but with Sakura it's obvious that she doesn't trust Sasuke so right there the theory does not fit.

 

Now for the part that bother and disturbed me, if Naruto doesn't change he might die but what does Naruto really needs to change apart from his blind faith in Sasuke? Everything else about Naruto shows that his dedication and good will influence other for the better so I don't get it plus little by little he has being following others advice same cannot be said about Sasuke.

 

2nd bold, I be happy if you explain what you meant by Sai and Shikamaru concern or even mistrust of Sakura loyalties, your interpretation sounded as if Sakura could be planing to betray the alliance, to me it looks like Sakura always wanted this moment but deep down she knows Sasuke is not good it's not easy for her to get over Summit plus she doesn't want others to worry about how she feels since she cannot trust Sasuke herself and doesn't want anyone to feel that way or worst Naruto who has invested so much energy for team 7 to work together.

 

 

I don't know maybe I read your post the wrong way but it honestly confuses me.

Edited by Don-kun, 20 June 2013 - 05:52 AM.

[PhenixElite]

I never felt so bother or disturbed after reading any of your post, after reading most of them am able to tie the events with the story perfectly but this time something doesn't sit well, Orochimaru said that he always feel like if he needed to create a wind AKA conflict but now he doesn't want to die before witnessing Sasuke future wind.

635

http://mangastream.c...uto/11587596/13

To fallow your interpretation you say Tsunade and Sakura parallel suppose to show that both want to believe that Oro and Sasuke changed but if that was the case then Sakura would really be honest about it, in Tsunade's part you cannot question if she trusted Orochimaru or not but with Sakura it's obvious that she doesn't trust Sasuke so right there the theory does not fit.
 
Now for the part that bother and disturbed me, if Naruto doesn't change he might die but what does Naruto really needs to change apart from his blind faith in Sasuke? Everything else about Naruto shows that his dedication and good will influence other for the better so I don't get it plus little by little he has being following others advice same cannot be said about Sasuke.
 
2nd bold, I be happy if you explain what you meant by Sai and Shikamaru concern or even mistrust of Sakura loyalties, your interpretation sounded as if Sakura could be planing to betray the alliance, to me it looks like Sakura always wanted this moment but deep down she knows Sasuke is not good it's not easy for her to get over Summit plus she doesn't want others to worry about how she feels since she cannot trust Sasuke herself and doesn't want anyone to feel that way or worst Naruto who has invested so much energy for team 7 to work together.
 
 
I don't know maybe I read your post the wrong way but it honestly confuses me.

I dont know where you guys get the idea from that naruto is going to die if he doesnt change. I mean wtf this is weired, just because orochimaru said so doesnt mean anything. One of the weirdest assumptions ive ever heared.

[KnS]

To fallow your interpretation you say Tsunade and Sakura parallel suppose to show that both want to believe that Oro and Sasuke changed but if that was the case then Sakura would really be honest about it, in Tsunade's part you cannot question if she trusted Orochimaru or not but with Sakura it's obvious that she doesn't trust Sasuke so right there the theory does not fit.

 

I meant the opposite.  I know Sakura does not trust Sasuke, so I was suggesting that either Tsunade does not actually trust Orochimaru either, or it's proof that Sakura has "changed" and isn't making the mistake of trusting Sasuke that Tsunade may be making by trusting Orochimaru.

 

Besides, it's looking like Sasuke has "changed" -- perhaps permanently, and not for the better.

 

Now for the part that bother and disturbed me, if Naruto doesn't change he might die but what does Naruto really needs to change apart from his blind faith in Sasuke?

 

That's exactly what I was talking about.  Jiraiya never gave up on Orochimaru, but maybe Naruto will have to "change" and realize he cannot or should not shield Sasuke, and accept that Sasuke is not who Naruto wants him to be.

 

I be happy if you explain what you meant by Sai and Shikamaru concern or even mistrust of Sakura loyalties, your interpretation sounded as if Sakura could be planing to betray the alliance, to me it looks like Sakura always wanted this moment but deep down she knows Sasuke is not good it's not easy for her to get over Summit plus she doesn't want others to worry about how she feels since she cannot trust Sasuke herself and doesn't want anyone to feel that way or worst Naruto who has invested so much energy for team 7 to work together.

 

No, I didn't mean Sakura is planning to betray the alliance.  I meant that for some reason she seems to want the others to think she's happy Sasuke has returned and that she trusts him.  She obviously isn't happy and doesn't trust him, but she won't admit it.  

Sakura could have told Sai the truth, right?  None of the other rookies are happy Sasuke is back, nor do they trust him and they were very vocal about it.  Why wasn't Sakura?  She has a reason to pretend she's happy and trusting, but what is it?  Is she trying to protect Naruto?  Does she think he'll be upset again (like he was during her confession) if she really has given up on Sasuke?

What I'm saying is that Sai and Shikamaru seem unsure of what Sakura is doing.  Either they fear she's supportive and trusting of Sasuke -- because she just lied and said she was -- or they fear she's forming a plan of her own again -- because they already know she is lying.  

It could actually be both -- Shikamaru worried she trusts Sasuke, and Sai worried she's planning something again.  The two guys have different pieces of information about Sakura and her actions.  One way or another, something is going on with her and they are uneasy about it.

 

I hope that clarifies things.

 

I dont know where you guys get the idea from that naruto is going to die if he doesnt change. I mean wtf this is weired, just because orochimaru said so doesnt mean anything. One of the weirdest assumptions ive ever heared.

 

I wasn't trying to suggest that Naruto is definitely going to die if he doesn't change.  But in speculating on the potential meanings of Orochimaru's words, it was implied through Naruto's parallel with Jiraiya.  If Jiraiya had been left out of Orochimaru's speech, then it wouldn't even be considered.  But the fact that Jiraiya died "just the way he was" -- without changing -- directly implies Naruto's unchangeable nature.

 

Likewise, going by parallels again, Tsunade's comment that if Orochimaru had changed before it was too late Jiraiya would have lived.  It suggests that if Sasuke doesn't change soon enough, Naruto could die.

 

We'll have to wait and see if it means anything.

Edited by KnS, 20 June 2013 - 06:44 AM.

[Transformers03]

Well, Sushi asked. I rather much call Sasuke a villain and be done with it. XD

 

Same here, I just find the conversations........interesting to say the least.

 

Really good chapter.  A lot happened and yet nothing was resolved. 

 

About Orochimaru's team.  That Karin was taken to heal Tsunade -- no surprise.  Karin and Suigetsu still arguing -- no surprise.  That Karin is a damaged girl with masochistic tendencies who is still in love with Sasuke -- no surprise.  That Orochimaru is cooling his heels and willing to watch and see what happens with Sasuke?  Not much of a surprise, considering that Sasuke has always been his goal.

 

In a way, Orochimaru's methods remind me of serial killer pathology.  He's got kinks.  He experiments with human life.  He holds on to bodies and body parts, wears the faces of his victims, and seeks the perfect body to help him achieve immortality.  But he's patient and plans things out.  Has he really changed?

 

To me, Orochimaru's "people change" conversation with Tsunade was the most interesting thing in the chapter.  It starts with Tsunade asking Orochimaru why he's "helping" after he has already betrayed the village, and he basically says he's changed his mind about how he wants to pursue his goals. 

 

That is exactly what just happened with Sasuke -- everyone wants to know why he's "helping" after he has already betrayed the village, and he basically says he's changed his mind about how he wants to pursue his goals.

 

Then there's this part:

 

T: "I guess you've changed..."

O: "People change.  Either that, or they die before they can.  [Jiraiya] died just the way he was..."

T: "Orochimaru, if you had changed earlier, Jiraiya would be alive now..."

O: "In that case, *he* might have changed...  Like us Sannin... things don't always go the way we want... We can't be a monolith forever.  Something eventually changes."

 

That series of statements could be interpreted about six different ways, and I wonder what Kishimoto is really getting at.  He certainly didn't string it together that way by accident.  He put it in the story right at the point where the parallel between the Sannin and Team 7 is at its height.

 

Is it nothing more than a simple parallel between Orochimaru and Sasuke being the ones to change their minds?  Is it supposed to be a parallel between Tsunade and Sakura, with Tsunade supposedly accepting Orochimaru's help the way Sakura is supposedly accepting Sasuke's help?  Is it meant to suggest that Naruto will die, like Jiraiya, if he doesn't change his beliefs or his loyalty?  Hmm.

 

About Sakura-chan.  She's definitely lying about being "happy" Sasuke has come back for the reasons he has, and also lying about trusting him.  However, she apparently wants the rest of them to think she's happy and trusting. 

 

The look on Sai and Shikamaru's faces suggests a concern or even mistrust of Sakura loyalties, and she seems to be encouraging it.  The question is... why?  What's she thinking she can do?

 

Gaara!  I'm so glad to see him again.  \o/

 

I can't believe this will be the end of Kakashi.  Just... no.

 

After your post made realize that the conversation between Orochimaru and Tsunade was probably the deepest that series has got into since a long time. The series still isn't like it was when it was at it's height, and probably will never be, however Kishi still shows essence of when the series was at its prime.

 

An other thing theory that hasn't been brought up by Sakura's fake smile (or simply hasn't been clearly stated in the way about to word it), but could it possible that she is lying to herself as well. Maybe she thinks she believes him, she may want to believe him, but she doesn't have the emotions to trust him. There something in her that is preventing her to fully trust Sasuke herself, and she may not even know it herself.

Edited by Transformers03, 20 June 2013 - 06:46 AM.